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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4505
   |
Posted - 2015.01.23 21:27:09 -
[601] - Quote
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:...
See this is where I have an issue. I am cool with a cloaky coming in and scoring kills. What normally happens in the space I am in, when a camper ventures in, we try to kill them in route. If they make it to their destination and decide to camp, that is fine as well. However we are still going to be on high alert. This camper is going to just sit in perfect safety and wait. They may wait, minutes, hours, days, weeks or months. Again this is all fine.
Where I see the issue is that the people in the system can do nothing to dislodge this player from the system. Now lets look at things differently. Lets say that Goons are going to be staging supers in a system for a deployment. A cloak makes it to that system. They now can gain all the intel they want by just watching. This in itself is not wrong, however the fact that nothing the Goons do will ever threaten that pilot. This is where I see the flaw.
PVP or PVE or ANything. It doesnt matter. Once a ship is in system, it is completely immune to attack.
So I ask. Why should this be allowed?
For starters, sitting in perfect safety has limited value.
Unless report worthy intel is available on a regular basis, this is a complete paid account which is effectively sitting idle.
I actually have no problem with being able to dislodge the cloaked character... BUT, quid pro quo...
I want something in return.
I want that cloaked character able to do more than just sit, if they are to become vulnerable to this ejection.
I want them able to equally affect the PvE targets, not just threaten them impotently while they cannot be reached.
Perhaps they are able to place explosives in certain asteroids, which are triggered by close proximity of other ships.
Perhaps they can perform a transaction with NPC pirates, spawning greatly enhanced fighting ships to turn the tables on the next ratters to show up.
And a kill mail for each time these results cause a loss of ship, to be fair.
In exchange, I myself would consider the means to track cloaked ships using normal cloaks, in hostile space, or any cloaked type mounting any cyno, in hostile space.
In both cases, I specify in hostile space, as I don't feel cloaking itself should be completely compromised.
I also deliberately left out any covert cloak using ship not equipped with a cyno, simply because scouting deserves a pass.
I would concede that special consideration is needed for Black Ops here, it is a unique ship deserving a unique ability.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
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Haywoud Jablomi
The Circus Corp
Alternate Allegiance
21
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 21:36:53 -
[602] - Quote
Nikks wrote:
Perhaps they are able to place explosives in certain asteroids, which are triggered by close proximity of other ships.
I have always been a fan of this idea. I think at some point mines did exist in game but were quickly removed. I am not sure why. It was before my time in game. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
11410
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 22:22:09 -
[603] - Quote
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:Nikks wrote:
Perhaps they are able to place explosives in certain asteroids, which are triggered by close proximity of other ships.
I have always been a fan of this idea. I think at some point mines did exist in game but were quickly removed. I am not sure why. It was before my time in game.
They were a huge cause of lag, and because at the time they had not implemented a drone bandwidth system (the mines were drones, basically) people could in theory just spam them everywhere.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Haywoud Jablomi
The Circus Corp
Alternate Allegiance
21
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 22:26:05 -
[604] - Quote
Ahhh hmmmm interesting
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Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
11410
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 22:33:55 -
[605] - Quote
Yeah, so in-space mines is probably never happening. I personally would like it revisited, but what with their recently going after drone mechanics to reduce server load (of which they are apparently big contributors), it seems highly unlikely.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4505
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 22:42:27 -
[606] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yeah, so in-space mines is probably never happening. I personally would like it revisited, but what with their recently going after drone mechanics to reduce server load (of which they are apparently big contributors), it seems highly unlikely.
A fair point, and I guess that explains the lack of mines.
How about this, in that case:
Your cloaked player can have the option of sabotaging the asteroids, and driving away the NPC pirates.
(They toast anything perceived as valuable, and leave before things become unpleasant for them)
This is, after all, economic warfare....
It has been fairly well established the cloaked fellow is unlikely to catch the PvE player, let's give them a secondary target.
Push the defending players to either track down our cloaked protagonist, or stand guard over the mining and ratting grounds.
Everyone has something to do, can stay active, and the game is afoot.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Fidelas Constans
1935
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 22:45:25 -
[607] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yeah, so in-space mines is probably never happening. I personally would like it revisited, but what with their recently going after drone mechanics to reduce server load (of which they are apparently big contributors), it seems highly unlikely.
I think there might be opportunity to revisit them under mobile structures, but Im not sure how difficult that would be. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
11410
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 22:48:15 -
[608] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yeah, so in-space mines is probably never happening. I personally would like it revisited, but what with their recently going after drone mechanics to reduce server load (of which they are apparently big contributors), it seems highly unlikely.
I think there might be opportunity to revisit them under mobile structures, but Im not sure how difficult that would be.
I asked once during a ship rebalance thread, and the answer, while long, could be summed up as "hell no".
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Fidelas Constans
1935
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 22:51:58 -
[609] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Rowells wrote:
So you think having to camp a gate for 23/7 is a valid tactic to keep someone out? And simply finding a single moment when the system is vulnerable means you wont have to risk anything beyond that?
Beyond travelling, you dont risk anything, but gain quite a bit of advantage. Depending on ship and cloak type you can gain a massive advantage. There is no hard counter to this. You can play the meta game and hope that works out, but thats it. And attempting to hunt them is currently a joke. You have to hope that the pilot is actually active at that time and doesnt recognize your bait for what it is.
Problem with how cloaks currently work is the amount of safety they grant versus how much effort or risk is taken. Fit a T1 cloak to your rookie ship and viola you are now untouchable eyes in system. Should that really be all it takes to offer invulnerability?
Your idea of system defense is a little too binary for it to actually be engaging or fun.
Bolded is the flaw. it's the same argument high sec people make when they say that gankers don't "pay" enough when they kill untanked industrial ships with destroyers (ie combat ships). It's nonsense, worrying about how much effort someone else is making rather than simply figuring out how you can make yourself safe no matter HOW MUCH effort they take is a character trait of people who complain about such things. Basically it's a victim mentality. The things I do to keep myself safe from afk cloakers and bad guys in null in general (syuch as wathcing intel, wathcing local, fitting to survive, making sure my overview is set right so i can warp out if I need to, arrange for defense fleet in whatever system im ratting in and DEFEND OUR ACCESS POINTS etc) take some effort and thinking, in fact they take more effort than fitting a cloak to a ship and traveling somewhere which is what afk cloakers do. That's fine because I'm the one who wants to not die lol. Worrying about how much effort someone else is putting in takes time away from my thinking about playing the game and thus my enjoyment. I don't expect CCP to play this game for me, and if somehow the 'field' isn't level I level it for myself, because I stopped needing to run to mommie for help some decades ago lol. I don't think this is an unreasonable standard for a mostly adult gaming community. To add on what you say, and comment on the bolded. The funny thing is, replace cloak with "docking in station", and the cloakers have the same arguement. All a pve'r has to do is dock with unlimited invulnerability. This is too easy. Perhaps we should be able to sabotage station docking by using a "hack" tool to jettison random players from station. Same principle as those wanting to nerf cloaks. Could you imagine the tears?
I believe the major difference is the interaction and resources involved. I can RF or destroy a POS and I can flip a station or damage its services to the docked people (btw I fully support the idea of destructible stations). What's missing with cloaks is the opportunity to interfere with them in any way. There's not even an effective way to meddle with the Intel provided aside from being somewhere else. No false positives or anything like that.
And I'm not referring this discussion to ratting or mining (haven't done those hardcore for a while) but the availability of Intel and a secure cyno into a system. |
Haywoud Jablomi
The Circus Corp
Alternate Allegiance
21
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 22:56:07 -
[610] - Quote
I know this will never happen but what I would love. Cloak doesnt drop at all no matter how close you get. Cloaks can be detected. Either hunting or not hunting BUT certain ships, like recons or whatever can steal things.
Slide up under another ship. Check their cargo with a scanner and snag some loot.
I am at work and heading home but I can detail a style of cloak that I personally love. see what people think. it wouldnt take much effort to make either. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
11410
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 22:58:53 -
[611] - Quote
Rowells wrote:What's missing with cloaks is the opportunity to interfere with them in any way.
They also don't provide a benefit that's even close to approaching how useful a station or POS is.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
11410
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 23:01:39 -
[612] - Quote
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:I know this will never happen but what I would love. Cloak doesnt drop at all no matter how close you get. Cloaks can be detected. Either hunting or not hunting BUT certain ships, like recons or whatever can steal things.
Slide up under another ship. Check their cargo with a scanner and snag some loot.
I am at work and heading home but I can detail a style of cloak that I personally love. see what people think. it wouldnt take much effort to make either.
I mentioned this to the other guy a page or so ago, but that is not EVE Online.
That is Elite Dangerous, or some other flight sim.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Haywoud Jablomi
The Circus Corp
Alternate Allegiance
21
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 23:13:18 -
[613] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Haywoud Jablomi wrote:I know this will never happen but what I would love. Cloak doesnt drop at all no matter how close you get. Cloaks can be detected. Either hunting or not hunting BUT certain ships, like recons or whatever can steal things.
Slide up under another ship. Check their cargo with a scanner and snag some loot.
I am at work and heading home but I can detail a style of cloak that I personally love. see what people think. it wouldnt take much effort to make either. I mentioned this to the other guy a page or so ago, but that is not EVE Online. That is Elite Dangerous, or some other flight sim.
Yes and no. A theft system could easily be brought into EVE. Just be another module.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
11413
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 23:20:09 -
[614] - Quote
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Yes and no. A theft system could easily be brought into EVE. Just be another module.
It could easily be brought into EVE, but it never will.
Because then I don't even have to gank freighters to get their cargo.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4506
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 23:23:19 -
[615] - Quote
Rowells wrote:I believe the major difference is the interaction and resources involved. I can RF or destroy a POS and I can flip a station or damage its services to the docked people (btw I fully support the idea of destructible stations). What's missing with cloaks is the opportunity to interfere with them in any way. There's not even an effective way to meddle with the Intel provided aside from being somewhere else. No false positives or anything like that.
And I'm not referring this discussion to ratting or mining (haven't done those hardcore for a while) but the availability of Intel and a secure cyno into a system.
Well, let's not forget the sheer difference in scale.
YOU, yourself alone, cannot RF or destroy a POS before having someone politely ask you to please stop.
Such inquiries usually being presented as a coded sequence of missiles, beam weapons, and blasters.
The same would go for flipping a station, etc.
And even if you brought in a brute frontal assault group, and managed it, the PvE craft would likely manage to evacuate before becoming at risk of loss to the owners.
Describing these structures as vulnerable, in this context, is somewhat misleading... to say the least.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
|
Haywoud Jablomi
The Circus Corp
Alternate Allegiance
21
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 23:26:34 -
[616] - Quote
This is how I have seen stealth done before. It's not far from what EVE does now and the game was almost identical to EVE in its sandbox style.
Key points.
Local was based on distance and there was not a player list associated with it. You only saw a name when someone spoke but there was no delay. So much like WH space.
Stealth classes could stay in stealth as long as they wanted but it hindered movement, and in some cases you were given bonuses to initial attacks. Stealth could only be uncloaked via damage. Stealth was also dropped when doing any form of offensive action but you didnt have to decloak to attack. The attack itself decloaked you. Thus you got the drop on your target.
How this was countered was with a hunting class. The scouts could hunt the stealth classes and were themselves stealthed. The way they did this was based on distance. You had basically a dscan. It showed all players around you. You didnt know which was the stealth character and which wasnt. You had to look that up by name. You could lock a player and you were guided via an arrow towards that person. You would never see the person until you set off a reveal style bomb that would reveal an area, as well as yourself. After that you fight.
Now not all characters could dscan the stealth players. They had to depend on their scouts to keep them safe.
There was also a thief that could steal directly from your inventory. Not this WoW junk where it steals some made up item. I mean literally see a players inventory and steal what you wanted.
Now I know this isnt EVE and an exact replication of this wouldnt work in EVE however a modification of this could work well. |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4506
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 23:29:49 -
[617] - Quote
How about this.
Covert shipping, lets say bombers as an example... are able to destroy asteroids.
They would use a specialized bomb that is far more friendly to store as ammo, and would be ineffective against player ships the same way mining lasers don't hurt player ships.
Regular Covert Ops craft would be able to broadcast a warning beacon, which would scram any NPC pirates from the system for a comparable amount of time.
(IE: The asteroids would respawn at the same rate as if they had been mined, same with the rats)
In exchange, in hostile space, you can gain an opposed ability to hunt cloaked craft.
(Anything mounting a cyno or using a non covert cloak)
How would that sound?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
|
Haywoud Jablomi
The Circus Corp
Alternate Allegiance
21
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 23:35:56 -
[618] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:How about this.
Covert shipping, lets say bombers as an example... are able to destroy asteroids.
They would use a specialized bomb that is far more friendly to store as ammo, and would be ineffective against player ships the same way mining lasers don't hurt player ships.
Regular Covert Ops craft would be able to broadcast a warning beacon, which would scram any NPC pirates from the system for a comparable amount of time.
(IE: The asteroids would respawn at the same rate as if they had been mined, same with the rats)
In exchange, in hostile space, you can gain an opposed ability to hunt cloaked craft.
(Anything mounting a cyno or using a non covert cloak)
How would that sound?
I like the bomb. Actually what I think would be insanely fun is a ECM style burst you could use in a rat spawn that would spawn all the waves at once. Even a ratting carrier would have a bit of a time dealing with that and you wouldnt know till you landed. |
Bloody2k
SKULL AND B0NES
13
|
Posted - 2015.01.24 01:11:03 -
[619] - Quote
This post need to be moderated. CCP, every solution approach needs to be seperated. We find no solution this way. |
Rhavas
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
370
|
Posted - 2015.01.24 03:35:28 -
[620] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Aredontis wrote:Rhavas wrote:Exactly. If it's your home, defend the entries like a wormhole corp does. Gonna try this one more time, just for you, because you seem "special": Null is NOT like wormholes, you can't just sit on the gates to keep people out. See, in null, people can light cynos and covert cynos, bridging in hundreds of others. This mechanic does not exist in W space. Apple meet Orange. If you don't let them into your system, they aren't there to light a cyno. Heck, you even have the wonderful foreknowledge of exactly where they will be coming from, unlike wormholes which open up in random spots. But asking for a one button solution to someone being cloaked in your system? That's just not how it works.
Aredontis: Yes, special in that I can actually think proactively. As can Kaarous, apparently. If you don't want AFK cloakers in your ratting system, pick one with few entrances and then guard them. Instead of posting on the forums how hard your life is because you can't have the feeling of total safety in your nullsec system.
You want security? Work for it. Get a seboed interceptor on the gates in a system with as few gates as you can manage. Figure it out. You're a nullseccer, you have corpmates, right? It's basic logistics. Guard your entrances if you want to claim something as "yours".
Author of Interstellar Privateer
Shattered Planets, Wormholes and Game Commentary
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Lelira Cirim
The Graduates
Forged of Fire
218
|
Posted - 2015.01.24 04:19:06 -
[621] - Quote
I recently had a terrific Das Boot experience with someone trying to decloak me on gate. I got away through careful piloting and patience, it really demanded situational awareness and understanding the mechanics.
For these reasons I understand why cloaking needs a foil that isn't purely proximity. Let's just rip a page from Trek and say that "the thing's gotta have a tailpipe". If you travel at 100% velocity while cloaked, you're more detectable (makes sense for Blops too, bigger tailpipe). Over time, you're more detectable. When does that timer get reset? After something that puts you at risk by making you visible, like jumping or docking or storing your ship.
Detectable how? Well, I dunno. But if you wanted to look at the same Trek page we just ripped out, Auto-Targeting missiles could stand to be more useful.
Rovinia wrote:One possibility would be to make drones use ammo. Just use the mechanics of the anciliary reppers with some new sort of ammo (would as well give PI a little push).
After 1-2 hours, you have to get a reload or your drone deactivates itself. In most cases that would mean that you have to leave the system from time to time --> more traffic on stargates --> more things to shoot.
Fixed that for you, and fixed Ishtars at the same time. You're welcome. 
Do not actively tank my patience. || EVE University Wiki Team
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
803
|
Posted - 2015.01.24 09:35:15 -
[622] - Quote
Sexy Cakes wrote:The part of this discussion you are totally ignoring is that this is only a 'problem' in nullsec. Why do you think that is?
Wormhole residents ... Faren Shalni wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:The difference is that you are in a worm hole alliance that is large.Smaller entities, run, hide, then scan for all links to their system, hope they have enough cloaked people of their own to go and sit on those worm holes links and watch for when the enemies de-cloak when leaving, then keep sitting, waiting until they think it is safe enough to destabilise the link. Might I ask is this speaking from personal experience inside W-space in a PvP corp ? Over a year of personal experience. Check my killboards and alliance histories. Fair enough Do not worry it was a few pages back. 
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
11422
|
Posted - 2015.01.24 13:07:56 -
[623] - Quote
Rhavas wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Aredontis wrote:Rhavas wrote:Exactly. If it's your home, defend the entries like a wormhole corp does. Gonna try this one more time, just for you, because you seem "special": Null is NOT like wormholes, you can't just sit on the gates to keep people out. See, in null, people can light cynos and covert cynos, bridging in hundreds of others. This mechanic does not exist in W space. Apple meet Orange. If you don't let them into your system, they aren't there to light a cyno. Heck, you even have the wonderful foreknowledge of exactly where they will be coming from, unlike wormholes which open up in random spots. But asking for a one button solution to someone being cloaked in your system? That's just not how it works. Aredontis: Yes, special in that I can actually think proactively. As can Kaarous, apparently. If you don't want AFK cloakers in your ratting system, pick one with few entrances and then guard them. Instead of posting on the forums how hard your life is because you can't have the feeling of total safety in your nullsec system. You want security? Work for it. Get a seboed interceptor on the gates in a system with as few gates as you can manage. Figure it out. You're a nullseccer, you have corpmates, right? It's basic logistics. Guard your entrances if you want to claim something as "yours".
But then they can't be afk ratting.
Which is the crux of it all. It's the exact same argument as an afk miner gives, that they should have safety without actually having to do anything. They're arguing for the supposed right to reap the benefits of playing the game, without actually doing so, and being safe to boot.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
NoLife NoFriends StillPosting
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2015.01.24 13:24:51 -
[624] - Quote
Check out the regular rabble, highjacking another thread in F&I out of nothing better to do than argue endlessly, absolutely and moronically.
Who can take you clowns seriously? |
Sayod Physulem
EVE University
Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.24 13:29:28 -
[625] - Quote
People talk about safety and Risk/Reward.
But the point is. Ones security is the insecurity of another person. To put it into other words:
Systemowners want to be safe from cloakers
Cloakers want to be safe from Systemowners
So the Systemowners want to reduce the safety of the cloakers at their own benefit by limiting the cloak.
And the Cloakers/Intruders want to reduce the safety of the systemowners by limiting the ability of local.
So basically it is a discussion about the power of the attacker vz. defender.
And if you think about it:
- cloak gives safety to one person
- local give safety to a group (the larger the group the safer - the systemowner)
btw - dock at a station gives safety from a group (fleet)
So do you want to support large alliances or do you want to support smaller groups? CCP stated they want to break up the large powerblocks. So if they are consistent they need to make it harder to control space for the powerblocks and easier to infiltrate them.
Leading to the result that the cloak is fine but we need to talk about local... |
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4187
|
Posted - 2015.01.24 14:41:01 -
[626] - Quote
Removed an off topic post.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
9482
|
Posted - 2015.01.24 16:45:13 -
[627] - Quote
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Where I see the issue is that the people in the system can do nothing to dislodge this player from the system. Now lets look at things differently. Lets say that Goons are going to be staging supers in a system for a deployment. A cloak makes it to that system. They now can gain all the intel they want by just watching. This in itself is not wrong, however the fact that nothing the Goons do will ever threaten that pilot. This is where I see the flaw.
PVP or PVE or ANything. It doesnt matter. Once a ship is in system, it is completely immune to attack.
So I ask. Why should this be allowed?
It's called balance (that thing you want to destroy). Goons can mass a huge super fleet, but they can't keep eyes off that fleet. IF THEY COULD that fleet would be ten times more dangerous because war is 1% shooting and 99% surprise.
The real problem here is human nature: when someone (like you) wants something the automatic response is to rationalize why they something is 'good' without considering the bad or why things are the way they exist. As I said before, what you want to happen would be bad for the game as it would strengthen already strong null alliances and coalitions (like Goons/CFC) and hurt others.
While I'm not all "think of the children, I mean small alliances", altering a game's balance because you want something and don't understand why that something is bad for everyone else is, again, selfish.
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Scath Bererund
Volition Cult
The Volition Cult
1
|
Posted - 2015.01.24 18:27:52 -
[628] - Quote
can it be made that using a cloak triggers a log of timer similar to the PVE/PVP timers? that would give locals a chance to scan down the camper before he or she logs off? |
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force
A T O N E M E N T
595
|
Posted - 2015.01.24 21:15:29 -
[629] - Quote
People are given enough "Free Information" in this game as it is. You are seeking to make a venture out of an isk making activity - you have the choice to either defend yourself better, have buddies on stand by or to move your operation somewhere else. An AFK cloaker is harmless as they are AFK.
Where as a covert ops player is fulfil their role in the game effectively - they are hunting vulnerable targets and taking them out behind enemy lines. That almost seems exactly like what I would expect from a covert ship... On the flipside cloaks allow you to travel and move around without being WTFPWNED using the MWD trick. They allow you to take a bio break while deep in some wormhole somewhere with no POS.
Nullsec has enough safety and enough security as it is. Everytime I warp into the a medium plex in FW there might some guy off D-Scan hiding in there or a cloaky. You know what I do? I harden up and get over it.
The best defence you have is to set the trap for the cloaky. Lure him out and then destroy him and any of his accompanying friends. AFK Cloaker in your system? Rat a system over.
I do agree that certain types of on grid counters can be made (Within reason) but at the same time they are meant to fulfill a specific role. If you can't deal with that - then either guard your borders better or go back to high sec. |
Haywoud Jablomi
The Circus Corp
Alternate Allegiance
22
|
Posted - 2015.01.24 22:01:04 -
[630] - Quote
Jenn I am sorry but I am still having a very hard time taking your arguments seriously. You have made it clear that you feel the 100% safety of the cloak is perfectly ok and you want nothing to change that. I disagree with this point of view. I personally disagree with anything that has 0 counter. I dont believe that local is the counter that you believe it is.
Also your attempts at passive aggressive attacks mixed into your posts probably should stop.
Sean. I am not arguing against cloak from a point of view of mining or ratting. If you go back to my first post on in this thread I even stated that if a PVE player was unable to accept the fact that a PVP player was going to be hunting them down and trying to kill them, then EVE is likely a game they shouldnt play.
Also Sean, in regards to your argument that people should defend better. I agree. However, as already discussed in the thread. That is not the issue at hand. We all know that if a proper defense is brought, the PVP player will not engage. All they have to do is wait. Eventually people will move to different systems, or log off due to time constraints or whatever, leaving a void in the defense. Of course this is the perfect time to strike for the PVP player and score a kill. I AM OK WITH EVERY PART OF THIS.
However where I see the flaw in cloak is that the player cloaked has absolutely nothing that can remove them from a system once he/she is in that system. Nothing. No matter how many ships are in system. The people living in that system are given a few choices. Leave to another system, stay docked and pursue other activities, or risk operating in the system. If they risk operating in the system, even the best combat tanked ship can fall prey to a hot drop. A person can do everything right and still lose in the end.
What I am looking for is a way to combat this. I hope you can see how frustrating it could be to a player. I see no reason why an pilot in space should have 100% safety, especially when their potential threat can be so high.
Oh and as for local, since it does have a bearing on the topic. Everyone that has made a suggestion on modifying cloak, has offered a suggestion on how to limit local as well.
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