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JabJabVVV The Four Aces Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:26:00 - [1] I live in 0.0 very close to an angel 8/10 complex in the south of eve, it may come as no surprise to you that this is regularly camped by a certain well known group of Russians. I do not blame them for camping the 'plex' in this manner and I am not going to criticise them for it, it is a very good way of making money. What I will try to address, however, are the game mechanics that allow them to make billions of isk a day with little or no risk. I cannot speak for other complexes as I have little experience of them, however I can speak for the angel 8/10 with some authority. At down time the complex is reset and the key holder spawns, it is essential to kill this key holder and claim his key in order to run the complex. So if you can get on immediately as the servers come up then you can claim the key and run the complex, the key holder will then not respawn until the following downtime so if you use the key then you are completely safe in the final level. You can then farm the final building (who drops the valuable loot) to your hearts content until the next downtime with typical takings from a days farming being in the order of 1-3 billion isk. So to clarify: The period of vulnerability for the campers is around 3-5 minutes per day as soon as the servers come up, the quietest time, if you aren't able to be on at this time (and that includes most European (during the week) and American time zones) then the complex might as well not exist, you certainly will never get to run it. The solutions then have to: - Make the complex much harder to farm - Make the complex more accessible to other players at different time zones - Make complex farmers more vulnerable, remove the no pain all gain situation that we have at the moment. The two solutions that I consider to be the best (assuming removing 0.0 complexes all together is not an option) are: Remove the key holder and decrease the spawn rate of the final building but increase the consistency of the drops (at the moment they are worth anywhere from 40 million to 500 million and over). This would make the complex much harder to farm as you would have to fight to keep control of the plex as without a key holder a hostile force can enter at any time and so to run the plex on a regular basis you would have to properly control the area not just be able to achieve local dominance for 5 minutes after down time. Or 0.0 Complex control is determined by sovereignty. This would certainly lead to some fierce battles to control the complexes and may add another dimension to eve. any ideas welcome, especially experiance with other complexes.
NOObbody Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:35:00 - [2] Maybe make the keyholder spawn at random times? So you have a chance to fight the waiting group, befor they can enter.
Garia666 Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:38:00 - [3] its very different with 6/10 It spawns way more often and people make way more isk from a 6/10 then a 10/10..
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:42:00 - [4] did they say they would do something about deepspace? heard that missions runners will never be safe anymore in that case, your problem would be solved (and astrometrics book price gonna skyrocket :p ) Tides of Silence recruiting mature players
JabJabVVV The Four Aces Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:49:00 - [5] Quote: Maybe make the keyholder spawn at random times? So you have a chance to fight the waiting group, befor they can enter. I thought about this but as far as I can see it still encourages the camping mentality unless the key respawn is increased to a very high rate (in which case you might as well do away with the key holder altogether). If the key respawns (randomly) once a day then if you get that key you can camp the plex exclusively for many hours. Even if it respawns 4 or 5 times a day you can still camp the plex between spawns and make up to perhaps a billion isk. Plex control will still be determined by who has local superiority for the 5 minutes after the key respawns, while it may be better than the current situation I feel that it is not the best solution.
Sakura Nihil Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:50:00 - [6] Hopefully this type of situation will be fixed, or attempted to be fixed, in Revelations with the new exploration system - thing is though, I don't know if they're going to be making all complexes 100% random and taking out all static ones, or intermingling the two. That being said, I agree, make it random or soverignty controlled. One quick addendum - we need to make soverignty mean something other than a pretty shade of your color on the map; complex control, static defenses (within reason ofc), and gate controls are all possibilities here that would make territory even more valuable. Tharsis needs some !
d026 Herrscher der Zeit	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:54:00 - [7] i allready made a post about how i dislike the ueber safespot those ra dudes have after entering stage 3 of the 8/10 plexes. as i was scouting arround the scalding pass/greate wildlans lately it seems that probably 90% of all complexes are camped by ra and associated corps. i so much wish to be able to engage them inside the plex and kick some serious ass:) removing keys leaving the plex open for everyone would be a damn nice idea!
Garia666 Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:57:00 - [8] Mabe you have to make it so that 1 char could do it just once a day.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente HelpCorp United	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:57:00 - [9] Kick their ass before they enter the complex.
d026 Herrscher der Zeit	Posted - 2006.09.18 11:59:00 - [10] kicking theyre ass bevore they enter the plex is impossible cause im at work at this time:)
Adoro Reunited	Posted - 2006.09.18 12:01:00 - [11] Hm solution, get a even bigger gang and camp there after DT... DT is in the afternoon for most european people. No problem to kick their arses everyday. Do this 1 week and they wont return so fast ;) -------- Bailian Moxtain: Quote: Who needs pride when there's isk to be made
Siigari Kitawa Gallente HelpCorp United	Posted - 2006.09.18 12:02:00 - [12] Originally by: Adoro Hm solution, get a even bigger gang and camp there after DT... DT is in the afternoon for most european people. No problem to kick their arses everyday. Do this 1 week and they wont return so fast ;) Yeah. You may not be up, but you're in an alliance, right? Get your pals to go in there and show them some muscle.
JabJabVVV The Four Aces Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.18 12:09:00 - [13] Quote: Kick their ass before they enter the complex. This is possible when properly planned however it still excludes the vast majority of eve players. Most Europeans (except those in the far east of Europe, guess which country that is (no prizes)) are at work as downtime ends and most Americans are either in bed or getting ready for work. So if you are geographically fortunate you will have a huge advantage over those who are not. I do not think CCP intended this to be the case.
d026 Herrscher der Zeit	Posted - 2006.09.18 12:18:00 - [14] thats exactely what i mean. i would engage them everyday for the next 2 months if just be able to log in at this time! (hope the finally allow me to install the eve client at work:)
Onin Ra Trail of Tears	Posted - 2006.09.18 12:19:00 - [15] Whaaaa Whaaaa --- First pvp expirience in eve is alot like having first sex, you have absolutely no idea what you are doing, but it is exciting and one way or another its over way too fast.
Gonada Gallente Cross Roads	Posted - 2006.09.18 12:33:00 - [16] nice work ccp screwing with empire misson runners, and you let the 0.0 complexes be used up like this. little lopsided dont ya think -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
Nakatah Caldari Lazor Monkeys Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:02:00 - [17] I agree very much, i normally dont get home until 3-4 hours after downtime so i can only run plex's on the weekends. Control plex entry by sov- means in an alliance situation you can reserve the complex for when you get home :) It will also be nice having pos fights over plex systems aswell as station systems, it will change how alliances make decisions of where they use there pos resources. Nak
Makmakis	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:06:00 - [18] yes we all know its lop sided however i can see the problem for CCP they have this down time when i am asumeing is when most of there server people are at work or avalible , hence this is the best time for a server down time , and hence a reset comments like Welldone CCP you screwed things up are not helpful but i think we are all in agreement apart from Russians it need to be changed sov and random reset times are good plex would be fought over finally instead of just a log on battle for getting in the plex
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:11:00 - [19] I think the point of the thread isnt who runs it, but the fact that whoever does it is completely secure once theyre in the last level. And the last keyholder, as opposed to in other complexes like the 10/10 which spawns twice a day, spawns about hourly last i checked.
Anna Mai	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:20:00 - [20] Originally by: Makmakis yes we all know its lop sided however i can see the problem for CCP they have this down time when i am asumeing is when most of there server people are at work or avalible , hence this is the best time for a server down time , and hence a reset comments like Welldone CCP you screwed things up are not helpful but i think we are all in agreement apart from Russians it need to be changed sov and random reset times are good plex would be fought over finally instead of just a log on battle for getting in the plex Sov is a very bad idea, not more reasons for pos wars, and why should you need sov to enter a complex? It's not YOUR complex, its the pirate faction that own the complex. There are complexes in game that dont require keys for most levels, this problem does not occur in those complexes.
Par'Gellen Gallente Low Grade Ore	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:20:00 - [21] Good point. Why is there a "key" at all? Starmaps - An Insta Solution
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:21:00 - [22] I've said it many times, and fail to see any reason this solution is not only fair to all but removes the favortism the DT currently holds for the euro players. Keyholder (KH) respawns at a set time based on death of keyholder only. Remove DT reset of comlexes. The time of KH death is in the DB and is referenced until the timer has reached its set time span, then the field is reset. This allows all to use a plex, no sploiters can camp it for the post DT runs. No favortism shown to ANYONE this way. DT has no effect on respawns this way. All players in the area would then have a shot at the plex. CCP would no longer bee seen as kissing the lower rear area of the euro players anatomy...☺ ☺ FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
Anna Mai	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:21:00 - [23] Originally by: Elve Sorrow I think the point of the thread isnt who runs it, but the fact that whoever does it is completely secure once theyre in the last level. And the last keyholder, as opposed to in other complexes like the 10/10 which spawns twice a day, spawns about hourly last i checked. What keyholder in what complex spawns hourly?
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:23:00 - [24] Originally by: Anna Mai Originally by: Elve Sorrow I think the point of the thread isnt who runs it, but the fact that whoever does it is completely secure once theyre in the last level. And the last keyholder, as opposed to in other complexes like the 10/10 which spawns twice a day, spawns about hourly last i checked. What keyholder in what complex spawns hourly? The keyholder (Technicly not the keyholder but the final overseer) of the complex this entire thread is about?
Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:30:00 - [25] Make the plex move daily. Theres no reason it should be in one system only. Let it spawn anywhere in a constellation on a given day.
Anna Mai	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:33:00 - [26] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Anna Mai Originally by: Elve Sorrow I think the point of the thread isnt who runs it, but the fact that whoever does it is completely secure once theyre in the last level. And the last keyholder, as opposed to in other complexes like the 10/10 which spawns twice a day, spawns about hourly last i checked. What keyholder in what complex spawns hourly? The keyholder (Technicly not the keyholder but the final overseer) of the complex this entire thread is about? So the final overseer of the 8/10 angel complex spawns every hour?
Alz Shado	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:38:00 - [27] You know, you have it easy. Zuul had to wait until both the Keymaster and the Gatekeeper were in position before she could enter the New York City complex and spawn Gozer. I hear she got WTFBBQed at the last stage though.
Bill Shankly	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:43:00 - [28] erm its in 0.0, its nowhere near a safe way to make easy ISK if people can be bothered to try and shift them.
Outro Caldari Lazor Monkeys Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:46:00 - [29] Quote: Make the plex move daily. That will change nothing for the people who cannot log in just after DT. I think sov controll is a great idea. It will give the most powerfull force in the area access, not the ones that can log in the fastest after DT. ** END OF MESSAGE **
Anna Mai	Posted - 2006.09.18 17:46:00 - [30] If its true the final overseer spawns every hour then shouldn't ccp lower the respawn rate? If this is true, thats means people could kill him about 23 times a day, and make a possible 10+ billion isk a day from loot?
Anna Mai	Posted - 2006.09.18 18:55:00 - [31] Edited by: Anna Mai on 18/09/2006 19:00:12 Originally by: Outro Quote: Make the plex move daily. That will change nothing for the people who cannot log in just after DT. I think sov controll is a great idea. It will give the most powerfull force in the area access, not the ones that can log in the fastest after DT. So then the people who spam most pos will get the complex instead, yeah brilliant! not. When will you understand that alliances dont OWN complexes, the complex isn't yours to be farmed, its a pirate outpost for large pirate corps like angel cartel and serpentis, do you think because you have sov they will allow only you to find the gate? Stop asking for everything to be handed to you on a silver ******* spoon, maybe you want sectioned of belts to which only people who own sov will have access next? Seriously, if you cant be on at downtime, thats your problem, there must be people in your alliance who can, i think the only problem here is that the so called "farmers" are actually much better PVP'ers than even you are. You want it all made easy for you. Lamer. CCP wouldn't make such a stupid change anyway, stop dreaming. A better fix would be to randomise the respawn of the overseers, and/or remove keys altogether, that way everyone gets a shot, your idea is just flat out lame, you can make a lot of isk from complexes, just as you can when you are mining, When you are mining, you are at your most vulnerable, why should it be any different for complexes? currently in some complexes that require keys you are kind of safe once you have gotten through the first through levels, but theres nothing stopping you from attacking them in the earlier levels. All you want is the situation reversed to benefit YOU, you want a nice fat isk machine thats reserved for your alliance only, with no chance of interruption, NOT going to happen. There must be risk when running a complex, with your idea of sov, there would be no risk for that isk.
Anna Mai	Posted - 2006.09.18 19:09:00 - [32] The rarest ore is in 0.0 for a reason, your supposed to have risk when making isk, the more isk to be made, the risker it gets. WHERE is the risk if a complex is reserved for your alliance only? Honestly, just the idea of it, the idea of a 10/10 complex in deep 0.0 space, being farmed day and night by some alliance, WITH NO RISK, because nobody else can get near to and inside the complex, only you and your alliance buddies farming all the uber loot every day and night, just like 1.0 empire space. You honestly haven't thought this through atall have you?
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.18 19:18:00 - [33] The way I see it, the solution to plexes is utterly simple. Complexes don't respawn at all until it's empty. The first area is a free for all, but once anyone makes it to the second stage the outside gate locks and no one can enter until the first person leaves. Set the first area gate so as to not need a key, but all rats must be destroyed to unlock the second stage. When someone is in the plex, no respawning happens. When they leave, the entire plex is reset instantly. Put a per pilot limit on each plex. So if you ran the plex less than X hours ago, you can't run it again. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Anna Mai	Posted - 2006.09.18 19:36:00 - [34] Originally by: Locke DieDrake The way I see it, the solution to plexes is utterly simple. Complexes don't respawn at all until it's empty. The first area is a free for all, but once anyone makes it to the second stage the outside gate locks and no one can enter until the first person leaves. Set the first area gate so as to not need a key, but all rats must be destroyed to unlock the second stage. When someone is in the plex, no respawning happens. When they leave, the entire plex is reset instantly. Put a per pilot limit on each plex. So if you ran the plex less than X hours ago, you can't run it again. Then people would just sit alts cloaked in the complexes to force it to not spawn, once again way overcomplicating things. The only real problem here is people always want change, not everyone can always be happy, they dont need to go making complexes even more complicated. EVE is supposed to be an open ended game without to many unrealistic restrictions. The serpentis 10/10 complex doesn't face the problem that the angel complex faces, in the serpentis 10/10, you have the first level, no key needed to enter it, from there you go to the second level, no key needed again, from the second level, you can go to either the 3rd, 4th or 5th level, you dont need a key to enter the 3rd level, you need a key to enter the 4th level, but the key is not used up, it just activates the gate, you need 2 keys to enter the 5th level, you get 3 keys per run overall. Even if someone has completed levels 1-4, you can still stop them from finishing the complex by ambushing them when they come back into level 2 on their trip to level 5. Just change the angel complex level structure, make it more like the serpentis 10/10, all problems solved.
JabJabVVV The Four Aces Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.18 20:06:00 - [35] In reply to Anna Mai's comments, you say Outro wants everything handed to him on a silver plate however you do not know our situation (Outro is in the same alliance as myself). If the complex was determined by Sovereignty then the power that fights hardest for it will get it, you assume that this would be our alliance, it is not necessarily the case. The campers come from a powerful alliance that would no doubt provide a hard fight which they may well win. Sovereignty control would merely allow a fair fight for the complexes involving all time zones rather than just depending on who could get the most ships on within 5 minutes of DT. This would also provide some added meaning to alliances and sovereignty, personally I would be in favour of special resources/abilities that are available only with sov as this would give sov some meaning, but that is another argument. As well as implementing sov control the key holders could be removed as well, this would allow hostile forces in to disrupt the plex runners and maybe even steal the loot. However it could be designed so that the plex does not respawn if there are not pilots from the sov holding alliance in the plex. As to the bit about the backstory rubbish, it belongs to angel, serpentis, whoever and not the local alliance. I feel this is largely irrelevant, plexes are money making machines, it cannot be argued otherwise. When you kill the plex for the 10th time that day you do not think 'oh yes, another devastating blow to the angel/serpentis/some one else faction' you think 'I wonder how much that is worth, how much have I made today' If you feel strongly about the backstory issue then perhaps they could simply replace the faction Plexes with a special resource that you can only get if you have sov that is based around the plex model. I do agree with you that the angel 8/10 plexes need restructuring. With a respawn rate of just over 40 minutes and a rat aggro range of ~120km it is possible to do the final room over 20 times in a day DT to DT with no risk and a couple of sniping ships, this is clearly broken. I quite like Locke DieDrake's idea, but as has been mentioned the downside is of course that you could stay in the plex completely safe either to stop anyone else running it or so that you can run it again as soon as local is clear and it is safe for you to do so, the way to stop this of course would be to warp all occupants of the plex to a random spot in the system a short while after they clear the plex, or only allow them a set period inside the plex from the moment they activate the first gate.
Anna Mai	Posted - 2006.09.18 20:25:00 - [36] Originally by: JabJabVVV In reply to Anna Mai's comments, you say Outro wants everything handed to him on a silver plate however you do not know our situation (Outro is in the same alliance as myself). If the complex was determined by Sovereignty then the power that fights hardest for it will get it, you assume that this would be our alliance, it is not necessarily the case. The campers come from a powerful alliance that would no doubt provide a hard fight which they may well win. Sovereignty control would merely allow a fair fight for the complexes involving all time zones rather than just depending on who could get the most ships on within 5 minutes of DT. This would also provide some added meaning to alliances and sovereignty, personally I would be in favour of special resources/abilities that are available only with sov as this would give sov some meaning, but that is another argument. As well as implementing sov control the key holders could be removed as well, this would allow hostile forces in to disrupt the plex runners and maybe even steal the loot. However it could be designed so that the plex does not respawn if there are not pilots from the sov holding alliance in the plex. As to the bit about the backstory rubbish, it belongs to angel, serpentis, whoever and not the local alliance. I feel this is largely irrelevant, plexes are money making machines, it cannot be argued otherwise. When you kill the plex for the 10th time that day you do not think 'oh yes, another devastating blow to the angel/serpentis/some one else faction' you think 'I wonder how much that is worth, how much have I made today' If you feel strongly about the backstory issue then perhaps they could simply replace the faction Plexes with a special resource that you can only get if you have sov that is based around the plex model. I do agree with you that the angel 8/10 plexes need restructuring. With a respawn rate of just over 40 minutes and a rat aggro range of ~120km it is possible to do the final room over 20 times in a day DT to DT with no risk and a couple of sniping ships, this is clearly broken. I quite like Locke DieDrake's idea, but as has been mentioned the downside is of course that you could stay in the plex completely safe either to stop anyone else running it or so that you can run it again as soon as local is clear and it is safe for you to do so, the way to stop this of course would be to warp all occupants of the plex to a random spot in the system a short while after they clear the plex, or only allow them a set period inside the plex from the moment they activate the first gate. If what you are saying is true, about the final overseer spawning 20 times a day, petition to CCP, make a seperate thread refering to this issue, this is likely to be a bug, almost all high level complexes final overseers only respawn twice a day tops, 20 times a day is absurd, and probably bugged, get it petitioned and make a fuss about it.
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.09.18 20:30:00 - [37] All complexes need to be removed and changed to randomly spawn in random systems at downtime. They shouldn't show on map or on overview, you should have to explore to find them. With probes and stuff. The new BFG.
Lord Spidey Hmmzor. Muffins of Mayhem	Posted - 2006.09.18 20:49:00 - [38] I'll come visit GM-0 for you and clean em out
Barwinius Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.18 20:54:00 - [39] Have the keyholder spawn every 18 hours or so, regardless of downtime. This would cause complex running to be spread across different time zones and make them more accessible to other players.
Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.09.18 20:57:00 - [40] Originally by: Outro Quote: Make the plex move daily. That will change nothing for the people who cannot log in just after DT. I think sov controll is a great idea. It will give the most powerfull force in the area access, not the ones that can log in the fastest after DT. In addition to the other changes :P
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.18 22:28:00 - [41] Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 18/09/2006 22:31:33 The joke of this is that all you hear is how mission runners abilty to make money needs to be nerfed and how easy it is and safe... Yet these complex farmers make 1-3 billion? you know how long that would take running missions? PErfect example fo the BS 0.0 players spew about risk vs reward. there is like no risk for people established in 0.0 but the rewards are insane. If anything missions needs to be boosted and complexes nerfed hardcore. The answer is to remove the key, anyone should be able to enter a complex ANYTIME, i mean for real WTF is the risk that we are supposed to have in 0.0? I can get jacked up ratting in 0.0 i can get jacked up mining in 0.0 but i got a 100% safespot when i do a complex in 0.0 which makes immensly more money? sorry 0.0 complexes are SERIOUSLY broken, and logging in to fight for a key everynight for the first few minutes after DT is NOT a reasonable answer. Just remove the key period 0.0 complexes have insane rewards and should have insane risks.
d026 Herrscher der Zeit	Posted - 2006.09.18 22:38:00 - [42] Quote: but i got a 100% safespot when i do a complex in 0.0 word!
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2006.09.18 22:58:00 - [43] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 18/09/2006 22:59:47 Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 18/09/2006 22:58:29 Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 18/09/2006 22:31:33 The joke of this is that all you hear is how mission runners abilty to make money needs to be nerfed and how easy it is and safe... Yet these complex farmers make 1-3 billion? you know how long that would take running missions? PErfect example fo the BS 0.0 players spew about risk vs reward. there is like no risk for people established in 0.0 but the rewards are insane. If anything missions needs to be boosted and complexes nerfed hardcore. Thats not all of 0.0. It's only the Russians/Asians/Australians. Everyone else gets the shaft. Your suggestion is great. Lets also make it so only russias, asians, and autralians can do level 4 missions in empire, and everyone else is restircted to level 3 or lower. But we'll make the rewards of level 4's even higher. So then you cant complain about level 4's not being enough reward... even though you never get to run them because you live in EU or US. Yer smart.
Anna Mai	Posted - 2006.09.19 07:52:00 - [44] Edited by: Anna Mai on 19/09/2006 07:55:15 Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 The joke of this is that all you hear is how mission runners abilty to make money needs to be nerfed and how easy it is and safe... Yet these complex farmers make 1-3 billion? you know how long that would take running missions? PErfect example fo the BS 0.0 players spew about risk vs reward. there is like no risk for people established in 0.0 but the rewards are insane. If anything missions needs to be boosted and complexes nerfed hardcore. The answer is to remove the key, anyone should be able to enter a complex ANYTIME, i mean for real WTF is the risk that we are supposed to have in 0.0? I can get jacked up ratting in 0.0 i can get jacked up mining in 0.0 but i got a 100% safespot when i do a complex in 0.0 which makes immensly more money? sorry 0.0 complexes are SERIOUSLY broken, and logging in to fight for a key everynight for the first few minutes after DT is NOT a reasonable answer. Just remove the key period 0.0 complexes have insane rewards and should have insane risks. What complex is it you refer to that reguarly makes you 3 billion? Oh thats right, NONE! Getting a 2-3 billion isk run from a complex is like getting a super rare drop in World of Warcraft, it happens once every few months if your lucky, most of the time you get average loot, you should stop spreading such lies, just because it is possible to get a 1-3 billion isk run, it does not mean it happens all the time, you rarely get a run like that. What the hell are you talking about being no risk? Theres the risk of being completely wiped out by other players.
Anna Mai	Posted - 2006.09.19 08:21:00 - [45] If this is true that the 8/10 angel complex overseer boss spawns every hour, and people are just going to the end of the complex and sitting there all day to farm it, then this is not a general complex problem, its a problem specific to this complex, high level complexes are supposed to fully respawn twice a day, not 24 times a day. CCP should sort this out immediately because people could be farming many billions a day from the 8/10 angel complex due to the overseer boss respawns 10 times more than it should be.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.19 08:42:00 - [46] "Thats not all of 0.0. It's only the Russians/Asians/Australians. Everyone else gets the shaft. Your suggestion is great. Lets also make it so only russias, asians, and autralians can do level 4 missions in empire, and everyone else is restircted to level 3 or lower. But we'll make the rewards of level 4's even higher. So then you cant complain about level 4's not being enough reward... even though you never get to run them because you live in EU or US. Yer smart." Err ya smart enough to understand that the differnce is anyone can run mission duh... but complexes are limited to who ever gets the key which is a function of being able to camp the spawn the first few minutes after DT, so I have no farking idea wtf you are blabbing about. "Anna Mai Posted - 2006.09.19 07:52:00 - [44] - Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by: Anna Mai on 19/09/2006 08:04:15 What complex is it you refer to that reguarly makes you 3 billion? Oh thats right, NONE!" UHM WRONG! you just posted an example of how they generate that much, heck 1 run through gets you 1 billion the dam overlord worth 500mill himself. "What the hell are you talking about being no risk? Theres the risk of being completely wiped out by other players every time you do the complex, lots of players fight over 0.0 complexes." YA right your in deadspace and the only way in is with the key which you camp and get every spawn lol. Plus all the normal tricks to avoid pvp works just fine in complexes as well. LEt's just say that everyone knows very few people ever get killed inside a complex from pvp....
Laythun Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.19 09:14:00 - [47] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 "Thats not all of 0.0. It's only the Russians/Asians/Australians. Everyone else gets the shaft. Your suggestion is great. Lets also make it so only russias, asians, and autralians can do level 4 missions in empire, and everyone else is restircted to level 3 or lower. But we'll make the rewards of level 4's even higher. So then you cant complain about level 4's not being enough reward... even though you never get to run them because you live in EU or US. Yer smart." Err ya smart enough to understand that the differnce is anyone can run mission duh... but complexes are limited to who ever gets the key which is a function of being able to camp the spawn the first few minutes after DT, so I have no farking idea wtf you are blabbing about. "Anna Mai Posted - 2006.09.19 07:52:00 - [44] - Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by: Anna Mai on 19/09/2006 08:04:15 What complex is it you refer to that reguarly makes you 3 billion? Oh thats right, NONE!" UHM WRONG! you just posted an example of how they generate that much, heck 1 run through gets you 1 billion the dam overlord worth 500mill himself. "What the hell are you talking about being no risk? Theres the risk of being completely wiped out by other players every time you do the complex, lots of players fight over 0.0 complexes." YA right your in deadspace and the only way in is with the key which you camp and get every spawn lol. Plus all the normal tricks to avoid pvp works just fine in complexes as well. LEt's just say that everyone knows very few people ever get killed inside a complex from pvp.... You need to learn how to quote. Secondly i dunno where your getting your info about the overlord being worth 500mil, the drop from him 'may' be worth that. Thirdly i find it rather stupid that people whine about not being able to be on straight after DT, thats tough ** tbh. i dont recall anyone working EVERY day after DT, if so then you need to call the feds cos your a slave. See You In Space Cowboy**[/url]
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.19 09:23:00 - [48] Edited by: Malachon Draco on 19/09/2006 09:22:59 There should be no keys to complexes. And instead of giving off a huge overseer reward once a day, it should be 10 rewards of smaller size spread over the day. Furthermore, there is no reason for it to be a deadspace thing. Why not make it like an asteroid belt but with a tailored spawn where lots of things aggro if you get too close? Current system smacks of instances. I played WoW. I hate instances, I've been in far too many of them...
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.19 09:29:00 - [49] Gonna keep this simple. - No Keys - Random reseeding times - Random respawn locations with no beacons (you have to actively try to find them). WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Anna Mai	Posted - 2006.09.19 09:35:00 - [50] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 "Thats not all of 0.0. It's only the Russians/Asians/Australians. Everyone else gets the shaft. Your suggestion is great. Lets also make it so only russias, asians, and autralians can do level 4 missions in empire, and everyone else is restircted to level 3 or lower. But we'll make the rewards of level 4's even higher. So then you cant complain about level 4's not being enough reward... even though you never get to run them because you live in EU or US. Yer smart." Err ya smart enough to understand that the differnce is anyone can run mission duh... but complexes are limited to who ever gets the key which is a function of being able to camp the spawn the first few minutes after DT, so I have no farking idea wtf you are blabbing about. "Anna Mai Posted - 2006.09.19 07:52:00 - [44] - Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by: Anna Mai on 19/09/2006 08:04:15 What complex is it you refer to that reguarly makes you 3 billion? Oh thats right, NONE!" UHM WRONG! you just posted an example of how they generate that much, heck 1 run through gets you 1 billion the dam overlord worth 500mill himself. "What the hell are you talking about being no risk? Theres the risk of being completely wiped out by other players every time you do the complex, lots of players fight over 0.0 complexes." YA right your in deadspace and the only way in is with the key which you camp and get every spawn lol. Plus all the normal tricks to avoid pvp works just fine in complexes as well. LEt's just say that everyone knows very few people ever get killed inside a complex from pvp.... Where do you get this crap from? Your just making things up in your head. The final overseer on the highest complex drops a 130m isk overseer effect, if your lucky, you'll get an x-type mod worth between 25m and 600m (except for gist x-type xl sb, but thats a rare drop on angel 10/10 only) most of the time you it'll be much closer to the lesser number of isk, assuming you get anything atall.
Burlock Ironfist Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.19 09:46:00 - [51] Originally by: Wild Rho Gonna keep this simple. - No Keys - Random reseeding times - Random respawn locations with no beacons (you have to actively try to find them). From what i understand the last part might be true, ccp want exploration to be a big part of eve again and im sure they said that at some point you will have to scan down everything, thats astroids, plexes and anything else interesting. but that doesnt help us at the moment, what should simply happen is that complexes are not effected by DT, as in they dont always automaticly respawn after DT. DT has always been a annoying factor in the game and i think its horrid that alot of things reset in DT. it gives people who can log in just after DT a big advantage, and cosidering how laggy things are after DT the last thing you want is to fight of somone from a plex. so a simple solution that would solve all these arguments is, NOT TO ALLOW DT TO RESET PLEXES, just let it carry on, on its 6, 8, 10 hour reset time from when the thing was destroyed. Then it would give everyone a oportunity at some point to try and run the plex, i cant see a easier or fairer change than that. BOOBIES!
El Covah No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.19 09:56:00 - [52] Russian players farming complexes is nothing new Those guys try to run several 10/10 and other plexes daily. Most of them are trained or bought alts and are somehow connected to aAa alliance and/or RAT. Before start whining, this is a known fact for everybody for at least half a year now. They farmed the 10/10 near Querious already while FIX held the area. I don't know what they do with so much ISK (each run can get you 1 billion ISK) but only if you manage to log in directly after DT and run straight into the plex). Only way to beat them is beeing faster than the farmers and try to kill them. If you are interested in some facts regarding their usual setups maybe it is a good idea to get in touch with our "plex-owning" alliances in the south to speed up your progress to send out the farmers. Be ensured: All have or had this issue with the russian farmes.
Helmut 314 Amarr J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.09.19 10:00:00 - [53] Best way is to make all complexes one run only and have them move to a different system in the region once they have been completed. Also, remove the beacons from the overview, make it so you need to scan for them. To offset that you can add a random chance that you will get a "hint" popup window when passing through a system with a plex. Eve has too few things you need to explore for. Id prefer if asteroid belts just had rocks in them and that you needed to scan them to find out what they contain. Exploring needs a boost! ________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Leto Nyx	Posted - 2006.09.19 10:31:00 - [54] Perhaps complexes should spawn in random locations, stay for a few days then spawn in another system - the same sort of respawn frequency as popped asteroids. It would be useful to have both complexes and asteroids respawn at random times, rather than after downtime. ----- Who do these gods think they are, with their 'holier than thou' attitude?
El Covah No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.19 10:33:00 - [55] Originally by: Leto Nyx Perhaps complexes should spawn in random locations, stay for a few days then spawn in another system - the same sort of respawn frequency as popped asteroids. It would be useful to have both complexes and asteroids respawn at random times, rather than after downtime. Both are excellent suggestions and would favour the legitimate owners of the complexes again over the ISK farmers.
Burner23 Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.19 11:33:00 - [56] Remove all the complexes, why should one who can attent afterdown time only have the benefit. We live in a real world so people who work are allways ****t because they cant get in the complex because some guys run it EVERYDAY. Make the npc's in belts spawn more and with more bounty, so people who live in empire will come down just to try to npc getting in 0.0 is easy afterall. Then let officer spawns drop more and make the stuff they drop more worth.
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.19 11:41:00 - [57] Originally by: El Covah Originally by: Leto Nyx Perhaps complexes should spawn in random locations, stay for a few days then spawn in another system - the same sort of respawn frequency as popped asteroids. It would be useful to have both complexes and asteroids respawn at random times, rather than after downtime. Both are excellent suggestions and would favour the legitimate owners of the complexes again over the ISK farmers. Who, the pirate factions? Seriously, plexes shouldn't be farms for the people that control the space where they're located. Can't see why we need keys, just require more hacking stuff instead for plexin' . Move the plexes around once every few days and remove the beacons (seriously...beacons, wtf? they want people to come over and party?), integrate it with improved system scanning so you need to use astrometrics to find the complex. My 0.02 ISK -----
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.19 11:42:00 - [58] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 19/09/2006 11:43:06 My opinion is to remove the plex and insted put up a agent in space giving you lvl5 missions. The rewards can be changed to prevent people getting over rich, but this gives everyone the chance, and will make defending the agent from random visitors a alliance priority. And guess what - you can probe your way to people running missions, but it is not possible to probe to a person running a plex. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Arknen Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.19 11:50:00 - [59] What about introducing a timer on entry to each room in addition to locking the gate on entry? That way groups could move through each room in cycle but they would only have a limited time to complete each room. Each person that entered wouldn't be able to re-enter again until the timer ran out. Its not a hard concept to put in place. If they hadn't finished they'd be 'escorted' out or something but they wouldn't be able to enter the first room again because someone else would already be in it and potentially someone else would already have the key to enter it next, or the timer would not allow it (have to think how this would just prevent them from killing the NPC that drops the key). I dunno, its like this is a dungeon in the classic sense like EQ or other MMOs but CCP refuse to treat it the same way just because its in space. It has all the same foibles that instancing and camping for drops to gain access to instances has in other MMOs too. I do like the suggestion of being able to bust into the rooms using advanced techniques or something but if CCP wanted to make a dungeon this is as close as you are going to get and if they want to keep it for the group that gets the key they need to figure out how to make it more accessible to more than a single group/corp/alliance.
El Covah No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.19 11:53:00 - [60] Originally by: Burner23 Remove all the complexes, why should one who can attent afterdown time only have the benefit. We live in a real world so people who work are allways ****t because they cant get in the complex because some guys run it EVERYDAY Current system favours ISK farming and selling the stuff on EBay or wherever. Everyone knows the "You need ISK ?"-Spam in your mailbox. Seriosly, so much ISK beeing sold for RL money cannot come from macro mining veldspar or ice in empire. The source of this ISK is plex farming. Also everybody knows the current ISK-farming people and where their origin is. This is no big secret anymore. Maybe it would be a nice idea to make high-end-plexes in 0.0 only runable for those which have sov in system ? It would create more nice conflict over resources and disables NPC or random bought characters to do it.
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.19 11:56:00 - [61] Originally by: El Covah Originally by: Burner23 Remove all the complexes, why should one who can attent afterdown time only have the benefit. We live in a real world so people who work are allways ****t because they cant get in the complex because some guys run it EVERYDAY Current system favours ISK farming and selling the stuff on EBay or wherever. Everyone knows the "You need ISK ?"-Spam in your mailbox. Seriosly, so much ISK beeing sold for RL money cannot come from macro mining veldspar or ice in empire. The source of this ISK is plex farming. Also everybody knows the current ISK-farming people and where their origin is. This is no big secret anymore. Maybe it would be a nice idea to make high-end-plexes in 0.0 only runable for those which have sov in system ? It would create more nice conflict over resources and disables NPC or random bought characters to do it. No. That's just encouraging more POS spammage for plex access, and besides, the plex doesn't actually belong to you, it belongs to some kind of pirate faction. -----
Caletha	Posted - 2006.09.19 11:56:00 - [62] Why do you want to protect the person(s) running the complex? Everything should work the way it works now except 3 little details. One, the complex should -never- respawn anything when someone is inside the complex. And two, gates should not relock once opened until a respawn. Three, respawns should always respawn everthing that got killed. That will stop easy farming of the end boss, this will stop easy farming of the entire complex, this will allow people to wtfpwn you if your doing the complex. Then also add it so that respawn isnt reset by downtime, but if thats not possible, make it so that all complexes respawn (at random intervals though) at -least- 3 times a day. So each time zone has a chance of completing it. Voilla, complex issues solved, no more 'no risk' issues. For all complexes higher then 2/10's, I'd recommend moving them to 0.5 or lower systems, so pirates can stop farmers there. Or stop them from dropping stuff like the Gistii A-Type Small Shield Booster.
Burner23 Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.19 12:02:00 - [63] If npc's are more worth and they would spawn faster, people in empire would be encourage to come down and npc. Because if they could make isk for a bs a day, why not try it. A complex farmer cant get so much isk without moving to more systems, people could gank him faster.
Ephemeron	Posted - 2006.09.19 12:16:00 - [64] I think that 2 big steps toward hindering "safe" plex are: 1) keep all lower levels unlocked when someone is at higher level. 2) if complex is completed (boss dead), the entire complex vanishes and moves to another random location after boss spawns. So when people see the complex beacon, it's sure sign that one can complete it. And if there are some people at last level, anyone could try catch up with them by traveling unlocked levels and compete for final boss kill.
Auron Shadowbane	Posted - 2006.09.19 12:21:00 - [65] I think there is a very easy way to solve the problem of farming plexes: remove the keyholders from the first stage of the plex and make him a random spawn like faction spawns and officer spawns. another way would be to make the keys drop with a very low probability by any rat in the region; higher rats (bs, faction, officers) would have higher chancs than low frigs but every rat should have a 1/10000 or what chance to drop a key.
El Covah No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.19 12:28:00 - [66] There are several good ideas here to stop ISK farmers whith some really simple changes in plex game-mechanics. Maybe simple add the keys to the loot tables for officer spawns and remove the keyholder from the first stage ? Also a solution which requires from my point of view not much programming and solves a lot of problems. I hope CCP pays attention to this ?
Anna Mai	Posted - 2006.09.19 12:40:00 - [67] Originally by: El Covah There are several good ideas here to stop ISK farmers whith some really simple changes in plex game-mechanics. Maybe simple add the keys to the loot tables for officer spawns and remove the keyholder from the first stage ? Also a solution which requires from my point of view not much programming and solves a lot of problems. I hope CCP pays attention to this ? My take on this is your just after any way possible to run the complexes without risk, every suggestion you've made or like the idea of results in whoever gets the complex gets to run it totally without interruption from enemy players. Your just a carebear trying to carebearise EVE, the current situation isn't perfect, theres only one change that would solve all the current problems, want to know what that is? Stop complexes respawning after server reboots, however make it so the server saves when the overseers were last killed, even through a downtime, make the respawn of the overseers random from between 4 to 6 hours or from 7 to 14 hours, etc. That way everyone gets a shot, because the complex will always be spawning at different times.
CRUSH3R Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.09.19 12:43:00 - [68] O_o nice topic :) Cry more, if you can't take our plexes, cry to devs to change situation - the best you can do! Respect to ascn\axe - u r still trying to take e3- 10\10 - while all the others are just crying
El Covah No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.19 12:45:00 - [69] Originally by: Anna Mai Your just a carebear trying to carebearise EVE, the current situation isn't perfect, No, the opposite is the case. I do not want all this uber-carebears beeing able to buy their ISK on ebay. Current game mechanics just enable carebearing and (even more worse) ISK farming and this is what needs to be changed to keep EVE a quality game for everybody. Originally by: Anna Mai theres only one change that would solve all the current problems, want to know what that is? Stop complexes respawning after server reboots, however make it so the server saves when the overseers were last killed, even through a downtime, make the respawn of the overseers random from between 4 to 6 hours or from 7 to 14 hours, etc. That way everyone gets a shot, because the complex will always be spawning at different times. Works too, but maybe more difficult to implement ? I do not know, but CCP knows :)
El Covah No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.19 12:48:00 - [70] Originally by: CRUSH3R Cry more, if you can't take our plexes, cry to devs to change situation - the best you can do! Respect to ascn\axe - u r still trying to take e3- 10\10 - while all the others are just crying It is somehow strange for me to sit in front of my PC waiting every weekend (I only can go there because under the week I need to work) that downtime ends to spam the "login" button as fast as I can to get into the plex before some HIAF or whoever does. But I do it since I have no other choice atm, and this sucks.
Anna Mai	Posted - 2006.09.19 12:48:00 - [71] Originally by: El Covah Originally by: Anna Mai Your just a carebear trying to carebearise EVE, the current situation isn't perfect, No, the opposite is the case. I do not want all this uber-carebears beeing able to buy their ISK on ebay. Current game mechanics just enable carebearing and (even more worse) ISK farming and this is what needs to be changed to keep EVE a quality game for everybody. Originally by: Anna Mai theres only one change that would solve all the current problems, want to know what that is? Stop complexes respawning after server reboots, however make it so the server saves when the overseers were last killed, even through a downtime, make the respawn of the overseers random from between 4 to 6 hours or from 7 to 14 hours, etc. That way everyone gets a shot, because the complex will always be spawning at different times. Works too, but maybe more difficult to implement ? I do not know, but CCP knows :) It's actually probably much easier to implement than any of the ideas you came up with, because you suggested some rather heavy changes that in likelyhood players could work their way around anyway. Making the complex respawns a little more random, and having the state of the complexes be saved through server downtimes wouldn't be so hard.
Infinity Ziona Privateers	Posted - 2006.09.19 13:03:00 - [72] They should spawn in systems that arent used often, afterall what rats are going to set up a base where they know they're going to be farmed by pod pilots, and each time you wipe the complex out, they disappear and respawn in a different unused system. Also I think you should get a threat rating to rats based on how many you have killed in the last 3 days, missions, belts and complexes, and when that threat rating gets high and you engage rats you have a high threat rating too, they warp away and hide. That way if you do a complex, mission or rat in a belt for a looong time (farming) eventually the rats will get the hint and **** off and someone else can have a shot at them. Are Alliances Pushing You Around?
Kaaii Caldari Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2006.09.19 13:12:00 - [73] This one "fix" would crush RA, do what 3 years of fighting has failed to accomplish.... can't have that now can we.. "..Id rather fall beside 10 lions, than stand with One thousand sheep.." Trading 101
Exortius Amarrus The Clearwater Society THE H0RDE	Posted - 2006.09.19 17:18:00 - [74] Originally by: Anna Mai It's not YOUR complex, its the pirate faction that own the complex. There are complexes in game that dont require keys for most levels, this problem does not occur in those complexes. Bingo. These complexes represent a base of operations, shipyard, etc... for an npc pirate corp. There should not be any complex keys. Just my 2 isks. ------------------------
Kaiu Hinkledolph and K Associates The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.09.19 18:19:00 - [75] Edited by: Kaiu on 19/09/2006 18:23:09 I have to think would be whining if you were the one making the isk...? Due to 'work' constraints i can pretty much log on at any time of the day, but i cant/dont due to 'sleep' at night time 1am-5am GMT So, can we arrange for all Alliance pvp ops and threats to my POS to please be dis-allowed during the above time slot? Thanks! edit: sp ____________________ MOGarmy
Von Kretschmer Minmatar The Four Aces Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.24 21:47:00 - [76] I wonder how much isk this is going to cost RAT now after this happened please read this 2006.09.24 20:38 Juster > Friends do you know that you are using BUg? Von Kretschmer > bug ? death curve > what bug? Juster > respawn of station on lvl 4 is bug Juster > i speak with GM he comes here and tell me Juster > u wanna speak with GM? Von Kretschmer > thats ok ) Von Kretschmer > thanks for the info Juster > np Juster > iam just warning that he says he will ban ppl Von Kretschmer > what so u can come in here ) Juster > we do that complex Wishlist > Yeah you have been in here every day since we have been down here Wishlist > all day everyday Juster > yeastarday he come and tell us about that Juster > and we don't do that today as you see Von Kretschmer > cool well he as not told us Juster > ah ok death curve > what u doing here then Juster > something wrong? death curve > no GM Ginger > Camping these complexes is now not allowed as you should be well aware by now Wishlist > Oh we didnt know we have seen people do it for months GM Ginger > Leave the complex now or I will move you and have to warn you Wishlist > Ok we are leaving GM Ginger > Sorry, but these are currently considered an exploit Blackened Soul > you gonna ban the ones whove been exploiting it for months? Blackened Soul > as oposed to those who just came in today? GM Ginger > We will take the action nexxesary please do not intefer Von Kretschmer > thanks juster u have been doing it for months Blackened Soul > awesome Von Kretschmer > 1 rule for 1 and another rule foe others Blackened Soul > enoughs been said now Blackened Soul > leave it at that. So i hope now that the GMS kick all plex campers out of the 8-10 plexs

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