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Caius Sivaris
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Posted - 2006.09.19 16:59:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
3# - Unbalanced Risk Vs Reward is clearly noticeable when looking at possible isk per hour when comparing highsec to 0.0 space when factoring in risks, Of which highsec has none.
Taking the example of my small corp losses over the last 2 weeks.
- 1 Taranis lost PvPing
- 1 Megathron lost in a level 4
- 1 Dominix lost in a level 4
- 1 Scorpion lost in a level 4
No pods lost.
And you say level 4 are risk free? They may be for a 3 year old player that completely maxed Raven skills and has a faction/officer pimped faction ship. Don't forget that the average EVE player plays only 7 months and soloing level 4 missions is challenging at that age. And someone that age is not making your mystical 12 million an hour missioning in highsec.
OK you recover some of your loot when you lose your ship in a mission, but they are definitely much riskier (for your ship, not your pod) than 0.0 ratting, with no chance (or VERY slim) of the very lucrative officer spawn.
Rewards are already much better missioning in lowsec so nothing to see here IMHO.
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Infinity Ziona
Privateers
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Posted - 2006.09.19 17:15:00 -
[92]
Its not really 'the loss of losing a ship' imo, you lose them in L4's, L3's, even L2's and L1's, press F10 and check ships destroyed if you dont believe me.
I think the issue is that people hate to feel powerless to act and thats the exact feeling you get when your ganked by a group of pirates who know what they're doing.
If you could remove that feeling of powerlessness then you might convince people to go and PvP or risk PvP by going and missioning in low sec.
Its the all or nothing aspect of PvP in EvE. If you get caught, theres usually no chance of escape in deadspace. If you get aggressed your usually going to die because your solo missioning and they're most likely in a group. Its rare that you can do anything in response to the gank before you pop under the combined attacks of the mission npcs you were mostly probably fighting and the gang of pks that found you.
So your basically helpless and people do not like to feel helpless.
While there are some things you can do, I use an alt at the warp in on the first gate, with 2 pcs running so I have ample warning once my alt gets fired apon, that requires multiple accounts, multiple pcs, and its really unreasonable to expect a person to do that to protect themselves.
Its a problem that cannot be solved without a big change in PvP mechanics. One side wants to kill, but they're generally scared or too nerfed (cov ops) to do it solo, so they gank, the other wants to PvE, but they want to do it solo and know they wont have a chance against a gank, so they stick in high sec.
The only solution I can think of is very unpopular and thats to increase the % of modules destroyed based on the DPS taken by the target ship.
Gank a battleship in 20 seconds, your obviously using a lot of energy, most of the modules are destroyed, take 3 minutes in a real battle, all of the modules survive.
Think of it like this, what happens if you shoot an armoured car with a rocket launcher? It tips over and you loot it. What happens if you drop a tactical nuclear weapon on it? It vaporizes.
Are Alliances Pushing You Around?
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Roy Batty68
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Posted - 2006.09.19 17:28:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
...
The only solution I can think of is very unpopular and thats to increase the % of modules destroyed based on the DPS taken by the target ship.
Gank a battleship in 20 seconds, your obviously using a lot of energy, most of the modules are destroyed, take 3 minutes in a real battle, all of the modules survive.
...
Great idea! 
And furthermore, it has a certain poetic elegance to it. It follows quite well with the "Risk vs Reward" mantra that certain people like to shout over and over.
/clap
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Azunami
Gallente
White Lance Corporation
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Posted - 2006.09.19 17:36:00 -
[94]
What was your CPL placement in cs, who did you play for (your name), and if you arn't anyone I have heard of, who did you beat? 
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Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2006.09.19 17:36:00 -
[95]
Uhm you're 100% wrong OP, and it is painfully obvious due to your own personal agenda that you are very biased also.
a) Missions are actually one of the best risk vs rewards in the game atm. There are 0.0 complexes that make a billion + each and every day for a small group of players, something no mission runner can touch. They are nearly as safe to do as empire missions.
b) People with t2 bpo's make in excess of 500 mill a week EASILY with ZERO risk and almost no effort or gameplay time involved. If anything needs adressing for risk vs reward that does.
c) Dam right people who do empire missions need and deserve faction rigs, last I checked that is HOW YOU GET THEM lol, you need to run missions to get faction ships no other way to get them, so clearly they were ment for people who run missions.
d) 0.0 currently has much greater rewards in every aspect to mission running in empire, and honest if your in alliance space you have very little extra risk over some player in empire running missions.
e) Solo content is not only EXTREMELY integral to EVE and EVERY MMO on the market, but it also makes sense to have as well. Nothing about MMO suggests it should not be playable solo. I think you need to get a clue about thinks before you make statements. Nowhere does massively multiplayer mean or suggest it means grouping. Multiplayer doesnt equal grouping, it means playing the same game with other people nothing more nothing less.
f) if anything mission runnning needs a boost. Alot of these type of posts are made because they beleive people stay in empire running missions because it is too profitable, when the reality is they do it because losing ships to "got gate camping down to a science" weenies is so expensive that people just can't justify risking thier stuff knowing the immense amount of time grinding missions it takes to make the money back, if it was easier to make money people would be more willing to risk loss.
g) NOTHING has ever been said that states all people that play eve must engage in to the death pvp combat, so please stop insinuating you have been granted the power to tell people how they will play eve.
LAstly If anything pirating needs a nerf. It is too easy and too profitable, with no real downsides. The risk vs reward for pirating is way out of wack, there is little risk, and rewards are high. it should be VERY difficult and time consuming to repair sec standing with empire, gate camping should be very hard and put the camper at a severe disadvantage instead it is the otherway around totaly backwards ass and silly.
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Wraithbane
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Posted - 2006.09.19 17:41:00 -
[96]
You people never give up, do you? Not content with ganking each other in low sec, you envy those in high sec, who don't wish to play the game in the fashion you choose to. Players who stay in high sec, are no threat to those in low sec. PvE isn't PvP. If CCP is unwise enough to actually force people into low sec, against their wishes, there are always other games to play. I'm betting they understand this much better than some appear to.
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Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
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Posted - 2006.09.19 17:42:00 -
[97]
 Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Wtf do mission runners give us exactly ?
Alliaanna
Put money in ccp's pocket so people like you can continue playing
______
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Death Kill
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2006.09.19 17:53:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
A solo single player playstyle does not belong in an MMO.
Alliaanna
Complete and utter rubbish, think before you post.
Recruitment |
Lunarmist
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Posted - 2006.09.19 18:11:00 -
[99]
lvl 4 missions have no risk? Give me a break! Take look at the map and see how many ships got killed in the system with lvl 4 combat agents. I'm pretty sure it is higher than most of the low sec and 0.0 combined. On of that, ships for lvl 4 missions usually have some of the best modules in game. Each ship got killed, the total value is much higher than pvp fitted ships. In lvl 4 missions, lots of things could go wrong. Lag, CDT, Buggs and some strange events take place all the time. The only difference here is that when a ship dies in mission, player pirates like you wouldn't get it. This is what you are really whinning about.
Solo play is just viable as team play in MMOG. This is a game first and people who PAY for the monthly fee can decided how they want to play. You(OP) have no rights to tell how others should play their game. If CCP didn't listen to pirates and so called "pvpers" aka gate gankers, then this game would have at least 4x more people playing.
You cannot blame mission runners for lag since it a service level problem for ccp to solve. We players pay monthly fee so ccp can keep game going and solve problems such as lag. In all honesty, everybody in this game cause lag not just one specific group. As for trade hubs. Well, that is human nature at work! If not, why do we even have towns, cities and such in real life? They are started as a simple gethering place for trade. You really need to read more useful books.
The fact is that there is no right or wrong way to play a game. When a game is not fun anymore, people will leave. Guess what, most of the people in Eve are having enough fun in empire. When those people left because of the nerfs, you can say good bye to Eve as well. Why? Because you will truely have nobody to shoot and ccp wouldn't be able to master enough cash to pay bills. There are right ways to balance a game and they are good way to trash a game as well. You(OP) is asking for the good way to trash the game totally and quickly.
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Coran Ordus
Ominous Corp
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.19 18:14:00 -
[100]
I think missions are a _little_ unbalanced, not extremely.
#Remove faction navy ships from agent offers, and include 1run BPC's into the loot table drops for all faction spawns.
Why not do both? I wouldn't object to seeing a greater variety of ships out there.
#Reduce Level 4 mission earnings in highsec to around the rate of 5mill per hour factoring in both ISK and LP rewards.
Seems far too extreme. Maybe a slight nerf to high sec missions and a boost to low sec missions. A 5mil/hour isk limit, including LPs and rewards, is really, really low. There is certainly more risk in level 4 missions than that. Not everyone has a faction-fitted uber ship and knows how to fly it.
#Make missions spawn less, but more challenging ships. 20 cruisers and 20 frigs are not really needed... Just make the ones that you do keep in the mission a LOT tougher.
This seems like a fine idea. Make it more like a fight than a shooting gallery. |
Lunarmist
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Posted - 2006.09.19 18:44:00 -
[101]
5m/hr? lol Do you realize that you can mine scordite in .9 and make 9m/hr with good skill? As far as I can say that the current payout lvl from empire lvl 4 missions is at it's bottem limite. Any lower people should just go mine scordite since it is truely no risk but with higher payout. People don't go into low sec and 0.0 because pve ship don't perform well in pvp. If a mission runner is winning a pvp fight against a pirate, that pirate can just run away, there is nothing he/she can do to stop it. However, if the mission runner is on the losing side, he/she cannot run usually because pirate will scramble. So it is a all losing no gain situation for mission runners. Please don't say put on WCS or scramblers on mission ships. People need every slot to stay alive in missions. So why should pirates have to only worry about against another player but mission runners have to worry about both pve and pvp? Where is the real risk for pirates since they don't go attack blindly. Where is the reward for mission runners when they get into such pvp fights? There is really no risk vs. reward here at all. How many pirates have you fought didn't run away when they are losing when you don't have a scrambler on your ship? I have delt with them planty of times. To me, those fights were totally no reward for me but I'm taking on all the risk. This cannot be fair risk vs. reward.
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Lala Ru
Gallente
Quasar Industries
Northern Regions Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.19 19:05:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Whatever brings me more targets is only a good thing, And I shall keep arguing my heart away
Aha! The truth comes out!! You don't care if you are actually correct or not, you just want CCP to change gameplay so you get more targets.
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nahtoh
Caldari
Bull Industries
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Posted - 2006.09.19 19:17:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Originally by: Sayamana
You can makes 3 times more money rating in belt in deep 0.0 in a noob fitted raven than in any empire level 4 mission.
And in empire, you dont drops eutetic cap recharger, arby siege each two 1.8M bs you see.
And in empire you dont have the unexpected belt dread guristas / officer spawn 
Stop complaining, they create lag, its right, but really less money that you can do ratting in 0.0...
Lol Cute, you've never been in 0.0 have you 
Loot tables are just as crap as empire lol, Apparently both empire and 0.0 NPC bs's enjoy fitting frigate sized mods
Playing 2 years, never seen/killed an Officer spawn. And I know theres many more of 0.0 folk who never have lol, and possibly never will.
Bull in the last year I va eseen a couple of arbie launchers as mission loot (perhaps 1 maybe 2 full cruise/full seige drop max spread out over that time). Spent a month or so in 0.0 sold about 3 or 4 full sets of each. Donated many many bartons and sold a ****load of eutecs...named XL sheild boosters? saw maybe 3 or 4 cl5s from that same time. In the area i moved my gear to I still have a stockpile from mytime in 0.0 and it was crapy region i was in apparently.
SO yeah I call you on your loot quality bull****. I made a damm sight more belt running than I do mission running and the loot quailty was so much higher.
=========
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Zosimos Sabina
Amarr
Loot
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Posted - 2006.09.19 19:23:00 -
[104]
No, low-sec and those crappy 0.0 npc areas need a boost.
No need to nerf, although it is immersion breaking to see large bs fleets in high sec.
It's mostly due to the fact that low-sec and crap areas of 0.0 have no compelling reason for people to be there. You make lame isk/hour, no good roids to mine, and (especially) low sec belt rats are stupidly low-bounty.
Basically introduce low-grade 0.0 ores and battleship rat spawns in low sec and you'll see your exodus. I wouldn't mind a buff to places like Providence, Pure Blind, etc.
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Onin Ra
Trail of Tears
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Posted - 2006.09.19 19:31:00 -
[105]
Obviously the guy is clueless, dont waste your time dudes.
---
First pvp expirience in eve is alot like having first sex, you have absolutely no idea what you are doing, but it is exciting and one way or another its over way too fast.
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Cailais
Amarr
THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE
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Posted - 2006.09.19 19:37:00 -
[106]
This is simply the most narrow minded post I think I have seen on the forums to date.
There's plenty of things I'd like to say here but all of it would earn me an insta ban. You want players like me in 0.0 so we have to play your version of EVE, to fly into mindless gate camps getting insta popped every other jump and live out lives of turgid boredom and misery.
This is the amazing community of EVE I heard so much about??? bravo. *golf clap*
C.
www.sefrim.com
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MrRookie
Caldari
Dark and Light inc.
D-L
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Posted - 2006.09.19 20:05:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Galk
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Wtf do mission runners give us exactly ?
Alliaanna
Put money in ccp's pocket so people like you can continue playing
Actually there is more but if you spend some time a think it through maybe you'll find out on your own 
*guy being attacked by a pirat in a complex
Originally by: Noluck Ned
*Notify* Concord is on their way to help you, just hang in there, they are waiting for the gatekeeper to respawn
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Changaroo
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Posted - 2006.09.19 21:50:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Changaroo on 19/09/2006 21:53:34
To OP: Listen dipstick. I pay for my game (2 accounts in fact). Therefore I get to play it the way I like. Sure CCP might want to push my ass out into 0.0. But that doesn't compute either since they have stated on several occasions that this game is supposed to cater to so many different modes of play. I mission, I like it, and yes this is an alt. My main has 40M+ skillpoints and I have been here for almost 3 continuous years.
Not my f-ing fault that you are bored and/or envious. Besides, I nowadays play to relax and PVP (been there, done that) isn't my flava, you dig dipstick. My RL job is a tad more interesting and exciting than this game (no offense to the diehards and CCP). No, go home and cry and then get a hug from yo momma and ask your dear ol' papa take his belt to your preposterous idea. Besides what the hell am I gonna do with so many CN Ravens and implants? Do you think I stockpile them or somethingP Hell no, people want to buy them and enjoy this game even more.
One could argue that Mission Runners do provide the rest of the EVE community with certain commodities and wares that they want or need. And vice versa since those complex runners provide the EVE community with modules too.
Yes, I may be a bit insulting, and yes I am honest in doing so since I think that imposing your mode of play onto others is an insult.
-------------------------------------------
This alt portrays the exact sentiments of a longtime EVE playing individual. 
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Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
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Posted - 2006.09.19 21:58:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Galk on 19/09/2006 21:58:21
Originally by: MrRookie
Actually there is more but if you spend some time a think it through maybe you'll find out on your own
Heh..
No point, it's one of those things thats been done to death, personaly i don't give a crap anymore, it's obvious from the posts subsequent to the original that the op is an idiot.... failing to even tempt the normal mission disliker bunch into the thread.. lorth, enslaver ect ect.....
Anyway, it was more a 10 second post, i was on the way out the door for a night at the speedway track down in coventry.
10 secs is about what it deserved tbh
______
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Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.09.19 23:12:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Changaroo
Edited by: Changaroo on 19/09/2006 22:01:12
And as far as the thing with moving lvl 4 agents into lowsec. **pfffftt** The only plausible solution is spreading them a bit better rather than clumping them together. And also introducing a select few which actually are in lowsec for those who want them there since the playerbase is large enough in my opinion.
Err, there are plenty of level 4 agents in lowsec. The talk here was about moving those in highsec out, or at the very least into a range that would have them handing out missions moving through lowsec occasionally (which really is alot worse than having a bonafide lowsec agent).
This whole thing has really been beaten to death, but the short of it is paying your 10 bucks isn't likely to keep you exempt from player interaction indefinitely. Mission running will continue to be in EvE, that's for sure - and anyone can most likely still enjoy it, but mechanical changes to increase the interactivity level are most likely on their way whether worthless threads like these pop up every week or not.
That can mean anything from lower sec missions to more accessible safespots (new scanning system) or any other variation to the missioning system.
But while we're at it, talking about risk versus reward, lets nerf the everliving bejesus out of most of the souths complexes (prime offenders : Blood Raider 6/10 IIRC), that's some really, really messed up income/hour right there. And while we're on a happy nerfing train, remove automatic bounty payouts for anything and replace it with a system that involves selling the tags to the CONCORD assembly or a faction navy for the cash you get now from belting.
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Xander XacXorien
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Posted - 2006.09.20 00:09:00 -
[111]
I dont understand why you have bothered posting this ?
The majority of people in Eve are not in low sec.
If you dont like this then unlucky.
The majority of the community could quite rightly state you are in the minority and the game should be changed the their favour.
If you dont like the majority of the Eve community then go play some other game.
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Kespii
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.09.20 00:35:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Originally by: Miss Overlord
bored PVPers wanting more targets or just casual gamers helping CCP with funds even if they do mission run thats why eve is good as it has many play styles
A solo single player playstyle does not belong in an MMO. And I have plenty of targets thanks.
Alliaanna
Having that attitude will only lead soloers to leave eve and therefore hurting eve even more
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Kespii
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.09.20 00:48:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Kespii on 20/09/2006 00:49:06
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
RAM and other commodities could easily be implemented via a different method.
The fact is CCP wants people to move out of highsec, They also dont like hubs, or lag. All efforts of which are screwed by Level 4 runners in highsec.
So fix it with moving level 4 agents to lowsec and spread them out. Lowsec is not a deathtrap to anyone but the trully retarded, Unfortunatly theres a few in the game hence silly "omg I got ganked, hax" threads every week.
In reality lowsec is a piece of cake, And im an outlaw with free shooting rights for all....
Alliaanna
it wouldnt be easy at all
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Miss Overlord
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2006.09.20 01:25:00 -
[114]
ill wade in here if u are in high sec and really wanna annoy mission runenrs head to jita train up astrometrics 5 and get scanning find the mission runners and drop in on em at their little mission deadspace take a few friends loot their cans or sub their cans wait for em to loot and blow em to bits - why hasnt anyone else thought of this ? would encourage a mass migration and also free loot in empire
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Soriss
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Posted - 2006.09.20 01:34:00 -
[115]
Just a small question never did a lvl 4 in empire .. how many LP you get from a lvl 4 quality 20 agent in 0.5 ?
I know I can get from 5000 to 16000 LP in 0.0 at a lvl 4 agent Q 20 in 0.0
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Infinity Ziona
Privateers
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Posted - 2006.09.20 01:35:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 20/09/2006 01:35:55
Originally by: Miss Overlord
ill wade in here if u are in high sec and really wanna annoy mission runenrs head to jita train up astrometrics 5 and get scanning find the mission runners and drop in on em at their little mission deadspace take a few friends loot their cans or sub their cans wait for em to loot and blow em to bits - why hasnt anyone else thought of this ? would encourage a mass migration and also free loot in empire
Because any smart mission runner knows that loot from L4 missions sucks ass - so much so that I never loot and just blow the cans up or leave them there.
And also a lot of missions are off grid so far that its going to take you a lot of time (if its even possible) to find them.
I dont know about you but spending an hour tracking down a mission runner to steal his crappy loot would prolly make me want to quit the game, rather then him.
Are Alliances Pushing You Around?
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Erotic Irony
Sturm und Drang
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Posted - 2006.09.20 02:06:00 -
[117]
Yeah I'd be upset too if my charisma was too low to train social skills and never get access to LVL4s. The OP's nerd rage delivers though.
PS: This thread, neatly summarized here belongs in missions forum.
Avon: For the love of all the is holy, do as the man says CCP. |
Miss Overlord
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2006.09.20 05:41:00 -
[118]
ill throw another viewpoint n here i think it has to do with his need to constatnluy PVP its what drives him cant consider anything else tbh if we followed youre opinion and nerfed all PVE ' ers then guess what 70% of the player base would quit - CCP would make a heavy loss on the game and then probably go out of business and or slow development to a near stop
Is tht what u really want to make the game go bankrupt - u toss do u realise that its the PVErs and the macro mining ISK farmers paying their accounts that actually keep the game afloat - CCP make the game broadbased (actually the trading element is kinda lousy) but i wont go into that.
So mission runners are needed otherwise the game would be out of business now crawl back into youre underground bunker and come out next year
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Alliaanna Dalaii
Gallente
Does Not Compute
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Posted - 2006.09.20 06:46:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Azunami
What was your CPL placement in cs, who did you play for (your name), and if you arn't anyone I have heard of, who did you beat?
Hey, arr you wont of heard of me lol, We sucked. only place anyone will have seen my alias is anyone that uses Ukterrorist where I wrote a sniping guide many many years ago lol (strangely its still there)
Normal alias Dark Raven, we played at I think it was the 2004 CPL at Cyberplex in london as #Real HeAt. Beat Kensai 21 - 3, then lost to TR who went on to win 
Played at the (2004?) Internet Centre or whatever the **** it was called in Nottingham as #Some Afghan Animals. We got owned ! 1st game was Disturbed, and Stu was bloody good lol. We lost, but not by much.
Then we had the joy of playing the mixed team of Team9 & MTW. OMFG ! Scream is amazing lol, 13 - 0 loss
other than that I play at LAN events and online for mates teams etc, but none in particular. Been playing since beta1 for DOH back when B!tch where around lol. (Mods that IS NOT bypassing the profanity filter its the name of the clan! and stood for Bullet in the ****s head  )
Alliaanna
Oh and to everyone else, Keep the hate coming, Its comedy gold I still think Level 4's dont belong in highsec, but thats just me. And to whoever said lowsec belt ratting earns more isk than level 4's.... ummmm
DNC Treasure Hunt !!
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Sendraks
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Posted - 2006.09.20 08:16:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
And to whoever said lowsec belt ratting earns more isk than level 4's.... ummmm
Lots of people said it.
Why?
Because thats the way it is. 0.0 belt ratting, especially if you're in friendly territory, is safer and more profitable than level 4 mission running. The only players for who level 4 missions are likely to be more profitable are those few who can afford expensive faction fittings on their expensive tech 2 or faction ships. Those are the minority of players.
It is far easier, and cheaper, to fit out a cruiser or BC and go belt ratting. Not only does it require less time (most level 4 missions take over an hour to do) you can bob in and out of belt ratting without losing out on mission bonuses.
10 million per hour belt ratting in 0.0 is easy. I make half as much as that per hour doing level 4 missions in a Mega. Why do missions if they are less profitable? For the challenge.
Thats the way it is. Thats why your arguments hold no water.
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