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Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.20 15:41:00 - [31] Originally by: Jim McGregor Also, while you arent "immune" to ECM, you can fire FoF missiles with 75% of the damage of the t1 version. Compare this to turrets... how much is 0% of the damage? :) As said earlier, launching 5 small drones will achieve 05 damage...FoFs always go for drones first, and Cruise FoFs do hardly any damage to small drones. You will be dead long before you have killed even one of them. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Raven LeSage	Posted - 2006.09.20 15:59:00 - [32] Edited by: Raven LeSage on 20/09/2006 16:00:01 Ok, before you get carried away I am not an alt. Hell I just started eve 1 month ago. To be precise yesterday was 1 month. And this isnt nerf missiles. I am simply looking for tips in flying missions agains missile carriers. I am doing Human Cattle and at phase 3 I pop in and get so badly pounded by missiles I have to warp out. Now I dont have that problem with laser or gun missions so I am wondering HOW TO AVOID MISSILES. Thats the point of the topic title "missile weaknes" as in - what is their weakness I could use. Big lasers? Get close and be fast. Rapid canons? Keep distance. Missiles? I dont know. My observations were made by a new player still learning eve. Besides - if you dont trust me just check my previous topics. And if you cant see from them that I am a newbie then you must be a bigger newbie then me.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.20 16:02:00 - [33] Originally by: Raven LeSage I am doing Human Cattle and at phase 3 I pop in and get so badly pounded by missiles I have to warp out. Now I dont have that problem with laser or gun missions so I am wondering HOW TO AVOID MISSILES. Thats the point of the topic title "missile weaknes" as in - what is their weakness I could use. Big lasers? Get close and be fast. Rapid canons? Keep distance. Missiles? I dont know. There is no way you can avoid them tbh. You have to tank their damage. Use shield hardeners for the damage type the missiles use, and you will most likely be fine. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.20 16:08:00 - [34] Originally by: Doxs Roxs ... Originally by: Jim McGregor Also, while you arent "immune" to ECM, you can fire FoF missiles with 75% of the damage of the t1 version. Compare this to turrets... how much is 0% of the damage? :) Yes, after reloading that takes 10 seconds, not to mention the FOF missile targeting are all messed up and will attack enemy drones, structures and generally everything except what you want them to fire upon. Apart from that they do have their uses. ... Regards /Doxs Ah thx for pointing that out: - Turret vs EW <<< Missile vs EW Btw "WTB structures", I'll place them around gates and stations so ebil-FoFs will hit them instead of me. You also seem to miss the fact that most heavy jammers are either missile boats them self (which means there are no drones to hit) or are gallente drone boats in which case you WANT TO hit the drones as its gonna castrate the opponents dmg and leave him with a sore thumb!
Raven LeSage	Posted - 2006.09.20 16:08:00 - [35] Thanks Jim. So basicaly with missiles its "shields up and take it like a man!" ?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.20 16:11:00 - [36] Originally by: Raven LeSage Thanks Jim. So basicaly with missiles its "shields up and take it like a man!" ? Yes. And dont drop the soap. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Lirt	Posted - 2006.09.20 17:54:00 - [37] Edited by: Lirt on 20/09/2006 17:54:47 Only drawback of missiles is the flight time. IMHO fleet battles are the new fashion of EvE. Once this fashion is over no more drawbacks for missiles. One more advantage of missiles noone mentioned is that they are not dependent to the capacitor, let them take it all with neutralizers-vampires who cares, even if your cap is empty you can still do FULL damage. But imo there something unfair between turrets and missiles. Missiles have only 1 module to enchance them while turrets have 3. One module that will increase missile speed and decrease explosion radius is needed. So if missiles get that they can minimize the flight time factor. Turrets have an equilevant and that is tracking computer-tracking enchancer, so they can hit from far away...
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.20 18:32:00 - [38] Lirt - you're right about the modules...now go take a look at the implants situation too.... --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.20 18:42:00 - [39] example from today afternoon: 3 long range bs vs hac... miss miss, miss, miss, miss, miiiiiiiiissss Torpraven: javeling torpedo hits ishtar for 45% damage = 340 dmg b4 resists. Add painter to equation and you get 60%. Funny? --------------------- Looking for frentix? Mail me.
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.09.20 18:55:00 - [40] lol caldari whiners.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.09.20 18:58:00 - [41] Originally by: Lirt Missiles have only 1 module to enchance them while turrets have 3. One module that will increase missile speed and decrease explosion radius is needed. So if missiles get that they can minimize the flight time factor. Turrets have an equilevant and that is tracking computer-tracking enchancer, so they can hit from far away... There is no module that reduces turret signature resolution, so there shouldn't be any module that reduces missle explosion radius. Turret Range = Missle Flight Time x Missle Velocity Turret Tracking = Missle Explosion Velocity Turret Signature Resolution = Missle Explosion Radius
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.20 19:01:00 - [42] Originally by: Tasty Burger lol caldari whiners. Yeah... i enjoy my caldari alt more than gallente... about blasters joy to fly crap etc. --------------------- Looking for frentix? Mail me.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.20 19:19:00 - [43] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/09/2006 09:39:03 The disadvantages of missiles are absolutely TINY, and its really only the instant damage argument that holds water. Missiles are fast, and will still hit the enemy within a few seconds unless he is 160 km away or something extreme like that. Yes, (t1)Torpedos are uber fast. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath For 50, you can have my goat:P- Tirg
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.20 19:30:00 - [44] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/09/2006 09:39:03 The disadvantages of missiles are absolutely TINY, and its really only the instant damage argument that holds water. Missiles are fast, and will still hit the enemy within a few seconds unless he is 160 km away or something extreme like that. Yes, (t1)Torpedos are uber fast. Railthron with iron ammo and t2 guns does 200dps --------------------- Looking for frentix? Mail me.
Doxs Roxs White Wolves Defence league E.R.A	Posted - 2006.09.20 21:47:00 - [45] Originally by: Kunming Originally by: Doxs Roxs ... Originally by: Jim McGregor Also, while you arent "immune" to ECM, you can fire FoF missiles with 75% of the damage of the t1 version. Compare this to turrets... how much is 0% of the damage? :) Yes, after reloading that takes 10 seconds, not to mention the FOF missile targeting are all messed up and will attack enemy drones, structures and generally everything except what you want them to fire upon. Apart from that they do have their uses. ... Regards /Doxs Ah thx for pointing that out: - Turret vs EW <<< Missile vs EW Btw "WTB structures", I'll place them around gates and stations so ebil-FoFs will hit them instead of me. You also seem to miss the fact that most heavy jammers are either missile boats them self (which means there are no drones to hit) or are gallente drone boats in which case you WANT TO hit the drones as its gonna castrate the opponents dmg and leave him with a sore thumb! While I can understand that some dmg is better then nothing, but you should also bear in mind that there is nothing that ensures your missiles hit the same target. For all we know they might hit one drone each. It might work better with heavies or lights, but Im still not to convinced you will do much. Dont forget your missiles might go for any neutrals nearby as well. If the enemy has no drones and there is nothing else nearby then I might understand reloading to FOF. But if you do, do you reload back to normal missiles as soon as you are no longer jammed or do you continue the fight with less dps, and a chance that your missiles will hit other things then your enemy? Regards /Doxs After almost half a year, why is my face just a '!' ? And please fix the Javelin T2 rail ammunition...
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2006.09.20 22:02:00 - [46] well i started the game flying gallente ships because my idiot friends chose gallente when they signed up. when i tried out the celestis i discovered that i really loved the visual effects of missiles and on the spot decided to change over to caldari missile boats. uberishness was not a consideration just the simple glee in watching the missiles heading downrange.
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.09.20 22:41:00 - [47] watching missles fly is fun and imo the dps from them is just fine, however if you want to live the game in a spreadsheet go with your blasterthrons.
Heloise ChateauBriande	Posted - 2006.09.20 23:50:00 - [48] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: welsh wizard As usual the elite "Anti-missile we fly turret ships hit squad" have forgotten the most important one. Missiles do less damage. Tell this to all bs pilots that i killed in 3 volleys from torpraven. How many interceptors have you killed with your Torp-Raven. I didn't think so... - Helo
Heloise ChateauBriande	Posted - 2006.09.20 23:55:00 - [49] Originally by: Sandra Tseng My question? Why are you stil using missiles with all their drawbacks? Do you like being at disadvantage or are you just trying to protect the weapons you use because you do not want them to get nerfed? Missiles are the best weapons in PVE (in my opinion) and I run missions. I flew Amarr for 6 months and if I go do some PVP it will be in a Geddon... but I will run my missions with the Raven. - Helo
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.09.21 00:22:00 - [50] Originally by: Raven LeSage Thanks Jim. So basicaly with missiles its "shields up and take it like a man!" ? Another really useful thing is getting your damage/range/accuracy up. Dead missile spammer = 100% missile damage reduction. For close range setups, consider getting your velocity up for the same reason. It will hardly ever result in technical damage reduction, but it does get you out of simple "take it like a man" range and into "dishing it out" range sooner. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.21 00:22:00 - [51] Originally by: Sandra Tseng My question? Why are you stil using missiles with all their drawbacks? I can answer that: because when you train for a race you have to live with it, and when you are Caldari your turret ships choice is very limited. Besides the Harpy (which doesn't outclass the other AFs mind you), the Caldari turret ships are not exactly nber... I trained for large rails II in hope the millions invested in gunnery wouldn't be wasted Now, to be honest, if I were to start from scratch, I'd go Minmatarr. It would probably be harder for PvE, but their PvP ships are just too awesome ____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships
Vladimir Norkoff Crimson Knights Trade Federation Thundering Mantis	Posted - 2006.09.21 00:33:00 - [52] NO!!11!!!1!11 No!!! No1 No!! No1111.. Missiles hav no weakness!!.. Missiles r too uber!!.. Fix now please!!.. Missiles always hit! Do most damage!! Do instahit! Wrecking shot!!!!11 All missile ships r T2 Torp Ravens!!.. All PvP uze missile frigs, cruiser, and bs!! Is too best 2 beat!!.. Nerf all now please!!.. Mak short range & miss 90%.. kthnxby..
Frools No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.21 00:44:00 - [53] Edited by: Frools on 21/09/2006 00:47:39 this whole thread is great but this one really jumped out at me Originally by: Grey Area "You can choose damage" Two flaws here...you can choose ONE type of damage. Don't make me laugh about changing ammo mid-fight, it just doesn't happen. Is it really an advantage to do ONLY one type of damage, rather than doing a few type in one shot? And that brings us to flaw no.2. THe damage you choose is Kinetic. Why? Because most missile ships only get a damage to kinetic bonus, so for anything else you are throwing away 25% DPS. hi, you can put different types of missile in each of your launchers, omg Originally by: Grey Area "good range" Yeah, but takes an age to get there. And anyway, what DOESN'T have good range these days...Tempests can easily snipe at 250km, so where's the advantage? compare the 3 turret races sniping battleship: pest, geddon and thron all with 3 damage mods and 4 tracking mods at 250km they do (respectively): 5, 129 and 17dps falloff is fun \o/ 200km sniping is pretty easy for turret ships, 250km is not note: a jav torp raven does 619dps at 250km, albeit with about 20s before any damage is done Originally by: Grey Area "they dont miss no matter the range" No, but they do get up to 99.9% damage reduction against small targets. This is a MUCH greater reduction than the "chance to hit" reduction that turrets get for small targets, and is unavoidable - there is no equivalent ot a "wrecking hit" for a Torp. precision cruise raven does comparable damage to a sniper bs shooting at an inty, until he puts his mwd on and gets some transversal up, then the raven outdamages it massively anything > misses true if the inty pilot is asleep and stops moving completely theres a good chance you'll pop him in a turret ship any competent frig pilot isnt going to get hit by battleship turrets there arent any 'lightly scratche' hits for missiles either Originally by: Grey Area "and do good damage." DPS is not the highest, even allowing for Tech II ammo (which gimps the firing ship far more than any penalties on tech II turret ammo) doesnt need to be the highest, consistant unstoppable but slightly lower damage is better than slightly higher damage with misses, scratches etc generally oh and the people whining that fof missiles suck, they're still better than having absolutely nothing like turrets do
Elenath Gallente The Vindaloo Enema Disasters	Posted - 2006.09.21 00:48:00 - [54] Originally by: Frools this whole thread is great but this one really jumped out at me Originally by: Grey Area "You can choose damage" Two flaws here...you can choose ONE type of damage. Don't make me laugh about changing ammo mid-fight, it just doesn't happen. Is it really an advantage to do ONLY one type of damage, rather than doing a few type in one shot? And that brings us to flaw no.2. THe damage you choose is Kinetic. Why? Because most missile ships only get a damage to kinetic bonus, so for anything else you are throwing away 25% DPS. hi, you can put different types of missile in each of your launchers, omg Originally by: Grey Area "good range" Yeah, but takes an age to get there. And anyway, what DOESN'T have good range these days...Tempests can easily snipe at 250km, so where's the advantage? compare the 3 turret races sniping battleship: pest, geddon and thron all with 3 damage mods and 4 tracking mods at 250km they do (respectively): 5, 129 and 17dps falloff is fun \o/ 200km sniping is pretty easy for turret ships, 250km is not note: a jav torp raven does 619dps at 250km, albeit with about 20s before any damage is done Originally by: Grey Area "they dont miss no matter the range" No, but they do get up to 99.9% damage reduction against small targets. This is a MUCH greater reduction than the "chance to hit" reduction that turrets get for small targets, and is unavoidable - there is no equivalent ot a "wrecking hit" for a Torp. 99.9%? what are you doing shooting citadels at an inty? :\ precision cruise raven does comparable damage to a sniper bs shooting at an inty, until he puts his mwd on and gets some transversal up, then the raven outdamages it massively anything > misses true if the inty pilot is asleep and stops moving completely theres a good chance you'll pop him in a turret ship any competent frig pilot isnt going to get hit by battleship turrets there arent any 'lightly scratche' hits for missiles either Originally by: Grey Area "and do good damage." DPS is not the highest, even allowing for Tech II ammo (which gimps the firing ship far more than any penalties on tech II turret ammo) doesnt need to be the highest, consistant unstoppable but slightly lower damage is better than slightly higher damage with misses, scratches etc generally I smell someone who hasn't finished pre-Algebra yet.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.09.21 02:08:00 - [55] Edited by: welsh wizard on 21/09/2006 02:10:34 Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: Jim McGregor This is the typical response thats always given when someone points out imbalance in the game. Which is why these discussions are pointless. One can only hope that Tuxford at least reads the threads and that its not up for a majority vote if it gets changed or not. It's actually a cop-out response, which people use when the factors involved in a discussion exceed their capacity to analyse it. Words like "innumerable" try to cloud the situations that people encounter in-game, rather than try to qualify or quantify them, in an attempt to throw off further discussion or challenges to a point. For example, we mostly agree that missiles aren't much use in fleet combat because it tends to take place at extreme ranges. However no attempt is made to quantify how much of PvP is fleet-based (it varies between players for one) and thus how badly at a disadvantage missiles are in general. I've never fought in a fleet in my life and I never plan to. Missiles offer immense advantages for me because all of my fights take place within disrupt range, where flight time is negligible and tracking dominates fights. One can't hope to please everyone, but it's an injustice to say that balancing is futile as a result. There clearly are a lot of players skilled in both missiles and turrets who could tell you, on the whole, which system offers more advantage to them. From that, the finer aspects of the game can be balanced indirectly. Spot on! Unfortunately given the subject matter of this particular 'discussion' it really isnt possible to quantify and qualify the data. Our best hope is to simpily play the game and hope that our knowledge and understanding of the mechanics advance through experience. I can tell you right now that its a very thin line Tuxford treads with regards to any missile alterations. We're on the brink of an ECM nerf and now the community is screaming for negative alterations to the Caldari flagships only truly powerful weapon system. If both things happen the Caldari race is going to be reduced to 'pathetic' overnight. Surely they won't make the same mistake twice? Either way I hope all of these 'anti-Caldari' posts are paid no due what so ever. Tuxford needs to concentrate on real issues like the majority of Amarr ships, stabs, nos and ECM. Great post btw Grey Area.
Philip Sterling GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.09.21 05:35:00 - [56] funny thread. people sure seem to have some strong feelings about missiles. keep it comming.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.21 05:44:00 - [57] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/09/2006 09:39:03 The disadvantages of missiles are absolutely TINY, and its really only the instant damage argument that holds water. Missiles are fast, and will still hit the enemy within a few seconds unless he is 160 km away or something extreme like that. Yes, (t1)Torpedos are uber fast. Meh. This is exacly why its so useless to discuss these things. You pick the slowest missile in the game as representative for how fast missiles are... Funny thread, but useless. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.21 07:51:00 - [58] Originally by: Heloise ChateauBriande Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: welsh wizard As usual the elite "Anti-missile we fly turret ships hit squad" have forgotten the most important one. Missiles do less damage. Tell this to all bs pilots that i killed in 3 volleys from torpraven. How many interceptors have you killed with your Torp-Raven. I didn't think so... - Helo More than with 425mm railguns. You miss cruisers at 30km. Also there are drones on raven, too. --------------------- Looking for frentix? Mail me.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.09.21 08:38:00 - [59] Originally by: welsh wizard Either way I hope all of these 'anti-Caldari' posts See - that's the problem with you people. You see everything in the nerf/buff spectrum. It's not about being anti one race or pro another. It's about balance. Scrapheap Challenge Forums - All the cool kids are doing it!
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.09.21 09:03:00 - [60] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: welsh wizard Either way I hope all of these 'anti-Caldari' posts See - that's the problem with you people. You see everything in the nerf/buff spectrum. It's not about being anti one race or pro another. It's about balance. Right back at ya! What you're asking for is not balance. You're just too stubborn to look beyond the edge of your own bias.

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