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Recon Cruisers the "Curse" in Modern PVP

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Lunas Feelgood Euphoria Released	Posted - 2006.09.24 02:34:00 - [1] First ill like to say this is not a whine thread but a discussion about the impact of recon cruisers in modern EVE warfare/PVP.. In the recents months I have seen a Large increase of different types of recon cruisers roaming aound 0.0.. They either used for solo pvp or in small gruops as tracking disruptors/Sensor damp/ECM support ships.. This is however not something strange. Becuase recon cruisers is a "new" idea into the world of EVE and most people have seen there potential and have trained for them for some time and now the impact is showing.. Ill be the first one to admit when they were first intoduced ,I thought this what just what modern pvp needed.. How wrong I was.. So whats wrong with recon Cruisers?? Well there is alot wrong actually and here is why.. 1. Ability to warp whiled cloaked. Curse/Falcon/Pilgrim etc they can all cloak and not just cloak they can warp cloaked?? Well isnt that what they are intended todo, recon mission etc?? Yes but the hole idea has absolutly ruin some aspect of pvp.. Simply becuase there abilitity to warp cloaked.. And since EVE dont provide the tools to find a cloaked ship, the ship class is almost untouchable, in the hands of an eksperience pilot.. I even seen recon cruisers escape camps with interdictor bubbles becuase they activaed there "I cant be touch button". And then got out of the bubble cloaked and then warped away Offcourse this tactic is very appealing to the general EVE player becuase who wont wanna fly a ship that can easely escape and cant be counted with any means possible. And also got the ability to use electronic countermeasures against every other ship class.. But ill get into that l8r.. So offcourse players take advantage of that and I think thats why i have seen a big increase in them l8tly.. Both for pvp but also for traveling.. Also one of the prop is is the ultimate griefer ship you can get a gang of these together go into a hostile HQ sys and then you can use grief tactic.. The opposite force got only 3 choises.. A. They can all stay docked.. B. leave the sys and go elswhere to avoid getting ganked while isk making.. C.. Camp the sys 24//7 with a big enough gang so the other side wont even dare to attack.. That basically means that both sides its holding eachother hostage in the chains of boredom.. And thats called grief tactic.. Usually the attacking force got no prop with this since his attention is to cause as much disturbance to the other side as possible.. Ill be the first to admit E-R has used this but personally I dont like it and its ruin good old days pvp where things got blown up.. Ok but coulnt a ship just fit a cloak before recon cruisers was introduced? Yes you could and is use alot in small specilised pvp corps however they coulnt warp cloaked.. It meant you coulnt find them in a ss but since they had to uncloak to move the opposite force could find them on the scanner and had a chance todo something about it.. 2.. Recon Cruisers and Electronic countermeasures.. Another prop with the recon cruise is that when CCP decide to introduce them the prop was: what is there role gonna be?? Aperently the good guys decide to give them bonus for all kinds of electronic measures including a nos bonus one some.. That means basically that recon cruisers has made the normal tech 1 cruiser almost obsolete and even the most dangerous ship to almost all other kind of ship classes particually to all turret based ship.. missil class ships is not so heavely affected.. And together with there ability to warp cloak this ship class is a very used ship both for pvp and for traveling.. However personally I think thye have ruin good old pvp and made all the tech 1 cruisers to nothing more then a joke.. Also im wondering why CCP even did introduced them?. Beside the fact that people have to train for it and keep the awerage EVE player longer ingame.. Anyway discuse peeps. Regards Lunas
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.24 02:52:00 - [2] Only half the recon cruisers can warp while cloaked. The curse is not one of them. Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.24 02:59:00 - [3] You just wasted 5 minutes typing that and we wasted 15 seconds replying to this thread. You suck.
Lunas Feelgood Euphoria Released	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:01:00 - [4] Originally by: Exiled One You just wasted 5 minutes typing that and we wasted 15 seconds replying to this thread. You suck. Thx you for you kind responds
Zafriel TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:10:00 - [5] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: Exiled One You just wasted 5 minutes typing that and we wasted 15 seconds replying to this thread. You suck. Thx you for you kind responds why dont you quote the reply that had an argument? I ♥ Tenacha Khan
Nerf Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:10:00 - [6] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: Exiled One You just wasted 5 minutes typing that and we wasted 15 seconds replying to this thread. You suck. Thx you for you kind responds In Soviet Russia, thread respond YOU! Signature removed as the image is unsuitable. If you have any questions, please mail us on [email protected] and include a link to the image in question. -Ivan K
Kaiu Hinkledolph and K Associates The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:11:00 - [7] You can kill recons in a bubble, your tacklers/inty just arent good enough pilots... They are filling the role they were designed for. They do it very well imo as well NOS and ECM are 'unbalanced' atm imo but i think if CCP can find a workable 'fix' for them then the issues you have will go away. As for warping cloaked, i think it would be rather silly if they couldnt ____________________ MOGarmy
DubanFP Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:17:00 - [8] Edited by: DubanFP on 24/09/2006 03:18:23 Originally by: Kaiu You can kill recons in a bubble, your tacklers/inty just arent good enough pilots... They are filling the role they were designed for. They do it very well imo as well NOS and ECM are 'unbalanced' atm imo but i think if CCP can find a workable 'fix' for them then the issues you have will go away. As for warping cloaked, i think it would be rather silly if they couldnt The creator of this thread sounds reasonable, and i put a bit of respect aside for the poster trying to do a serious conversation. But he doesn't know what he's talking about really "curse can't warp cloaked, in fact it has nothing over any other ship getting a cloak", and I agree with the person in my quote 100%.
Zafriel TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:19:00 - [9] where did he say that a curse could warp cloaked? I ♥ Tenacha Khan
Christopher Multsanti Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:31:00 - [10] Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Edited by: Emperor D''Hoffryn on 24/09/2006 02:59:11 Only half the recon cruisers can warp while cloaked. The curse is not one of them. edit also, the pilgrim, which can warp while cloaked, loses one of those so broken bonuses to nos, the nos range bonus, for the cloak CPU bonus, which is what allows it to fit the covert ops cloak, and warp while cloak. The curse can nos from 31km+, the pilgrim has standard medium nos range, a big tradeoff for ability to cloak. The most powerful aspect of recons is not recons themselves, but all the ECM that they allow to be fielded. FIX ECM(jammers), and the other problems you mention will no longer be problems. I am not really sure saying that the pilgrim lossing extra nos range is a big trade off for flying cloaked as you dont need the nos range when you can get right up besides someone cloaked. It also still gets the nos transfer ammount bonus. Apart from that , I don't agree with lunas on this one, i have no problems with recons. Sorry Lunny <Kurenin> Oh hello Christopher Exploitisanti!
DubanFP Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:34:00 - [11] Originally by: Zafriel where did he say that a curse could warp cloaked? Originally by: So whats wrong with recon Cruisers?? Well there is alot wrong actually and here is why.. 1. Ability to warp whiled cloaked. The poster never mentioned just Force Recons, and was talking about the curse as the primary example. It MAY be due to the lack of english skills, but it seems that the poster is including all Recon Cruisers with this ability.
Hakiem	Posted - 2006.09.24 04:26:00 - [12] Someone just got owned by a recon cruiser. They are fine if you do not know how to counter them learn or go fly them and die.
Bewl	Posted - 2006.09.24 04:37:00 - [13] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Zafriel where did he say that a curse could warp cloaked? Originally by: So whats wrong with recon Cruisers?? Well there is alot wrong actually and here is why.. 1. Ability to warp whiled cloaked. The poster never mentioned just Force Recons, and was talking about the curse as the primary example. It MAY be due to the lack of english skills, but it seems that the poster is including all Recon Cruisers with this ability. Nowhere in his post did he once mention a Curse. The thread topic is Recon Cruisers the "Curse" in Modern PVP. By curse, he doesnt mean the ship, he referes to the actual meaning of the word. You play EVE way to much.... well.. I kind of do too. I actually called my Microwave a 'Microwarp' to my fiancee the other day.
Trem Sinval Sinval Enterprises	Posted - 2006.09.24 04:47:00 - [14] Originally by: Bewl I actually called my Microwave a 'Microwarp' to my fiancee the other day. Set your burrito to 2km/sec on high! - Trem
Darpz Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.09.24 05:13:00 - [15] you have to remember though the afk cloaked strat was not pioneered by recons It was pioneerd by a standard covert with an alt logged in system. which tbh is more effective since a T2 BE raven can wip thru a rating BS before it knew what hit him and disapear bagck into a safe before anyone in local could respond. Also recons are paper and there dps is anemic, and tbh any good group in a system should be able to fend one off if everyone that was rating responded to belt to put some dps on it. (don't rat alone with one in system)
Dahin Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.24 05:35:00 - [16] I have to agree to a certain point. Having a covops in your sol cloaked 23/7 and never knowing when he's active or not is pretty scary (hi 68ft ) and it's pretty much a play-with nerves game. But I'm not REALLY against that, because in reality, it's just turning the uber all-seeing local into your enemies disadvantage by seeding fear while you're (mainly) afk. Isn't that ironic? The covops tactic is more than counterable, since a hostile non-covops has to be in the sol and you can see him coming (what? he's in a cloaked raven? haha, sucks to be you, this is a general problem sourcing from the fact that every ship can use a cloak and you can't probe cloakers). As if the things were not bad enough, the new ships combine best of both worlds. Combining the covops cloak (which is pretty much the key point in this tactic since the scout can't be seen warping to the belt) and the bonuses of those ships, it's pretty much every afk'ers dream. Man, I mean look at the bonuses, in many cases they're way more effective than a BS, especially the pilgrim. (don't underestimate the arazu, the rats may steal your killmails but it's still as effective). "I go afk, and when I come back, I either have solo-killed an entire hostile sol without doing anything or I get juicy ratting targets". The only cloaker that I find acceptable is the minmatar one. It has a specific role, can be used for some serious surprise parties and is not all-around pwnmobile. It's not nerfed, it's right. Anyway, I have no real problems with the non-cloaking recons, none at all. Actually I liked their addition since they changed the possible tactics. BUT, hopefully, with the introduction of kali (have patience, I don't see it coming any time soon), the cloakers will be probeable. Hence my main gripe will be gone, but they can STILL warp cloaked, which is still a problem. Why on earth give them just half the bonuses? Any cloak & dagger user would trade half his recon bonus for a covops cloak and they actually do it (just compare ship prices to find out). The cloaking recons are supposed to sneak in and shoot a cyno, their pvp bonuses make no sense. Well I guess they couldn't find any serious bonuses to find for the ship, since, let's face it, the 50% cyno field duration and the role in general looks like it came after desperately trying to find a new shiptype/shiprole for months. It just doesn't cut it and I think they are more of a problem that a new eve toy. Finally. For the Hakiem types: No, not really. We did not get ganked and we came to the forums whining. We actually gank people in those ships and employ all the described tactics against our enemies (well, actually against everyone but our friends). And it's working good, too good tbh. As lunas, I'm just pointing out that the tools employed by me and the others really problematic for the eve in general, despite the fact it brings us mucho kills and operational effectiveness (god I love depriving of the hobbits their dear roids, makes me wake up horny in the morning).
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.24 05:59:00 - [17] Fully agree with the OP. A cloak should not be such a perfect recipee for unfindability => invincibility. Two possible solutions I can think of, one is make scanning stronger(thought that is actually planned for Kali), the second would be to make recon ships require fuel for their cloak, just like cynofields (heavy water seems a reasonable choice for fuel IMO). That way they become less solo/small group ships, and more for recon for large fleets who can carry enough fuel to supply them regularly.
Lienzo	Posted - 2006.09.24 06:16:00 - [18] Cloaking modules should use charges. Smaller, less individually combat-capable ships should use them more efficiently in the following order. -Covert Ops Frigate: -Can cloak for hours at a time, 1/3 of a day or so (~8hrs). -Stealth Bomber: Half as long on cloak cycling time. -Recon Cruiser: Half as long again, and reduce cargo hold. Aggressive use of Recons means using the cloak selectively if the op is going to last more than 2hrs. Use of non-warping cloaks on other ships is also worth nerfing in terms of time limits and sustainability. Please note that for seige or other use, a friendly ship can always deliver an anchored can of more cloaking charges, but they still have to come from somewhere. I always suggest that they be constructible from moon materials by default to expand that market. Also, the stealth bomber needs to be able to warp cloaked. It might have been logical before, but the wtfpwn of Recons really clouds the design distribution.
Buxaroo Black Dwarf Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.09.24 06:23:00 - [19] Edited by: Buxaroo on 24/09/2006 06:24:58 Edited by: Buxaroo on 24/09/2006 06:24:18 Originally by: Dahin (don't underestimate the arazu, the rats may steal your killmails but it's still as effective). This has me perplexed. Last night we killed a RA guy in a arazu, about 5 of us on him, and he went pop......but no one got a killmail....and no rats were in the vicinity. Is this some kind of bug or are you talking about generally if they are in the belts ganking npcers and the rat lays the final blow? I just found it wierd that none of us got the killmail and there were no rats around that I saw (this was at a gate btw).
Noriath	Posted - 2006.09.24 06:23:00 - [20] Any ship is nearly untouchable in the hands of an exprienced pilot, it's really not the fault of cloaks. Cloaks just just make it acctually impossible to kill someone who doesn't want to be killed, whereas for every other ship it's just "practically impossible" ... The only way to really get someone with some skill at evasion and a fast ship by the balls in Eve is a bubblecamp, the cloaks really aren't the cause of that problem...
mematar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.24 06:59:00 - [21] Originally by: Buxaroo Edited by: Buxaroo on 24/09/2006 06:24:58 Edited by: Buxaroo on 24/09/2006 06:24:18 Originally by: Dahin (don't underestimate the arazu, the rats may steal your killmails but it's still as effective). This has me perplexed. Last night we killed a RA guy in a arazu, about 5 of us on him, and he went pop......but no one got a killmail....and no rats were in the vicinity. Is this some kind of bug or are you talking about generally if they are in the belts ganking npcers and the rat lays the final blow? I just found it wierd that none of us got the killmail and there were no rats around that I saw (this was at a gate btw). Petition it under stuck and state that no one in gang got the killmail. Make sure you say what system and the name of the char. GM's usually will send you the killmail. Ive done it like 20 times lol.
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.24 07:03:00 - [22] Edited by: Nikolai Nuvolari on 24/09/2006 07:03:37 I'd like to respond to the arguments of the post itself, but it's written with such utter disregard for the English language that I feel I would dirty myself to do so. Just having read it, I already feel like taking a shower. Read over your post, run it through spellcheck, and learn that NO WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARE SPELLED WITH THE NUMBER "8" IN THEM GODDAMNIT! Oh, and nerf Amarr recons. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108! byahahahahaha!11 Sig Pwnt - Immy
Dred'Pirate Jesus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.09.24 07:11:00 - [23] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Oh, and nerf Amarr recons. STFU.. I just got my Curse and am currently enjoying the wtfpwnage.. Plz let me enjoy it for a little while longer.. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ [2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" :
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.24 07:29:00 - [24] Lets wait for the ECM nerf. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath For 50, you can have my goat:P- Tirg
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.24 07:34:00 - [25] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Oh, and nerf Amarr recons. Lets just delete Amarr from the game, since the recons are pretty much the only proper ship Amarr have left. But dont worry, when our beloved tux nerfs ~~Amarr into oblivion~~ nos then those ships will be crap just like the other Amarr boats out there.
Yolan Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.24 07:40:00 - [26] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Edited by: Nikolai Nuvolari on 24/09/2006 07:03:37 I'd like to respond to the arguments of the post itself, but it's written with such utter disregard for the English language that I feel I would dirty myself to do so. Just having read it, I already feel like taking a shower. Read over your post, run it through spellcheck, and learn that NO WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARE SPELLED WITH THE NUMBER "8" IN THEM GODDAMNIT! Oh, and nerf Amarr recons. Stop being an ass, the OP native language is not English. I would like to see you try to write a post in his native tongue. Recons are slightly overpowered but not massively so imo, personally I think the upcoming EW changes will balance them out nicely.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.09.24 07:42:00 - [27] Actually as long as the ECM/NOS nerf is Global i'll have no problems with it.. Ship Bonus FTW.. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ [2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" :
Deamos Quintessential Continuum.	Posted - 2006.09.24 08:13:00 - [28] In the begining of Eve, ECM was not chance based...but would usually take one full scorpion to ECM jam another BS. Then came the first ECM nerf which made target jamming a chance based system. Now one ship can jam up to 3-4 ships but not 100% of the time. Now theres another ECM Nerf coming? Come on people, stop crying if you cant target someone because you are ECMed and start fitting ECCM modules. Seriously, at the rate people complain, all modules will be considered unbalanced because pilot XYZ got hopelessly slaughted because he was not properly fitted. It's gone from Warp Stabs to ECM modules, to just about the entire EW tier. You don't hear me complaining because I got caught in a bubble or killed by some fleet blob. It happens. The only unbalanced thing in Eve is lag and none of us can help that. My 2 cents...
GLok Caldari Unauthorised.	Posted - 2006.09.24 08:20:00 - [29] I agree in some respects. It does seem a little much to allow cruisers to warp cloaked and escape almost any situation. But can i just ask why no-one complains about cov-ops frigates being able to do it? Simple really because its what they are there for. Well its the same with the recon ships (not including the ones without the ability to warp cloaked) Plus as far as im aware, dont you have to wait a few seconds before you can lock something when coming out of cloak? This would surely give you enough time to run away or start fighting back? Anyways i always found thats the case unless cov-ops ships have some unknown bonus which isnt mentioned in their description? Oh and sorry for bad spelling. I just woke up --------------------
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.24 08:24:00 - [30] Edited by: Nikolai Nuvolari on 24/09/2006 08:24:47 Originally by: Yolan Stop being an ass, the OP native language is not English. Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize that in his language, "l8tr" would be the correct spelling. Because so many languages use the letter "8". I don't care what language you speak natively, there's nothing preventing you from running your long-ass post through Spellcheck. Originally by: Yolan I would like to see you try to write a post in his native tongue. These are English-only forums so he can put a bit of effort into writing IN ENGLISH properly or get somebody else to post for him. Or get the hell out. My Spanish is pretty half-assed, so do I go posting Splanglish crap onto Spanish-only forums? Hell no. I see no evidence here that this guy speaks any non-English language other than AOLspeak. And if he was raised in an AOLspeaking household, then dear god the Earth is doomed. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108! byahahahahaha!11 Sig Pwnt - Immy

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