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Recon Cruisers the "Curse" in Modern PVP

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Lunas Feelgood Euphoria Released	Posted - 2006.09.24 02:34:00 - [1] First ill like to say this is not a whine thread but a discussion about the impact of recon cruisers in modern EVE warfare/PVP.. In the recents months I have seen a Large increase of different types of recon cruisers roaming aound 0.0.. They either used for solo pvp or in small gruops as tracking disruptors/Sensor damp/ECM support ships.. This is however not something strange. Becuase recon cruisers is a "new" idea into the world of EVE and most people have seen there potential and have trained for them for some time and now the impact is showing.. Ill be the first one to admit when they were first intoduced ,I thought this what just what modern pvp needed.. How wrong I was.. So whats wrong with recon Cruisers?? Well there is alot wrong actually and here is why.. 1. Ability to warp whiled cloaked. Curse/Falcon/Pilgrim etc they can all cloak and not just cloak they can warp cloaked?? Well isnt that what they are intended todo, recon mission etc?? Yes but the hole idea has absolutly ruin some aspect of pvp.. Simply becuase there abilitity to warp cloaked.. And since EVE dont provide the tools to find a cloaked ship, the ship class is almost untouchable, in the hands of an eksperience pilot.. I even seen recon cruisers escape camps with interdictor bubbles becuase they activaed there "I cant be touch button". And then got out of the bubble cloaked and then warped away Offcourse this tactic is very appealing to the general EVE player becuase who wont wanna fly a ship that can easely escape and cant be counted with any means possible. And also got the ability to use electronic countermeasures against every other ship class.. But ill get into that l8r.. So offcourse players take advantage of that and I think thats why i have seen a big increase in them l8tly.. Both for pvp but also for traveling.. Also one of the prop is is the ultimate griefer ship you can get a gang of these together go into a hostile HQ sys and then you can use grief tactic.. The opposite force got only 3 choises.. A. They can all stay docked.. B. leave the sys and go elswhere to avoid getting ganked while isk making.. C.. Camp the sys 24//7 with a big enough gang so the other side wont even dare to attack.. That basically means that both sides its holding eachother hostage in the chains of boredom.. And thats called grief tactic.. Usually the attacking force got no prop with this since his attention is to cause as much disturbance to the other side as possible.. Ill be the first to admit E-R has used this but personally I dont like it and its ruin good old days pvp where things got blown up.. Ok but coulnt a ship just fit a cloak before recon cruisers was introduced? Yes you could and is use alot in small specilised pvp corps however they coulnt warp cloaked.. It meant you coulnt find them in a ss but since they had to uncloak to move the opposite force could find them on the scanner and had a chance todo something about it.. 2.. Recon Cruisers and Electronic countermeasures.. Another prop with the recon cruise is that when CCP decide to introduce them the prop was: what is there role gonna be?? Aperently the good guys decide to give them bonus for all kinds of electronic measures including a nos bonus one some.. That means basically that recon cruisers has made the normal tech 1 cruiser almost obsolete and even the most dangerous ship to almost all other kind of ship classes particually to all turret based ship.. missil class ships is not so heavely affected.. And together with there ability to warp cloak this ship class is a very used ship both for pvp and for traveling.. However personally I think thye have ruin good old pvp and made all the tech 1 cruisers to nothing more then a joke.. Also im wondering why CCP even did introduced them?. Beside the fact that people have to train for it and keep the awerage EVE player longer ingame.. Anyway discuse peeps. Regards Lunas
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.24 02:52:00 - [2] Only half the recon cruisers can warp while cloaked. The curse is not one of them. Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.24 02:59:00 - [3] You just wasted 5 minutes typing that and we wasted 15 seconds replying to this thread. You suck.
Lunas Feelgood Euphoria Released	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:01:00 - [4] Originally by: Exiled One You just wasted 5 minutes typing that and we wasted 15 seconds replying to this thread. You suck. Thx you for you kind responds
Zafriel TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:10:00 - [5] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: Exiled One You just wasted 5 minutes typing that and we wasted 15 seconds replying to this thread. You suck. Thx you for you kind responds why dont you quote the reply that had an argument? I ♥ Tenacha Khan
Nerf Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:10:00 - [6] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: Exiled One You just wasted 5 minutes typing that and we wasted 15 seconds replying to this thread. You suck. Thx you for you kind responds In Soviet Russia, thread respond YOU! Signature removed as the image is unsuitable. If you have any questions, please mail us on [email protected] and include a link to the image in question. -Ivan K
Kaiu Hinkledolph and K Associates The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:11:00 - [7] You can kill recons in a bubble, your tacklers/inty just arent good enough pilots... They are filling the role they were designed for. They do it very well imo as well NOS and ECM are 'unbalanced' atm imo but i think if CCP can find a workable 'fix' for them then the issues you have will go away. As for warping cloaked, i think it would be rather silly if they couldnt ____________________ MOGarmy
DubanFP Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:17:00 - [8] Edited by: DubanFP on 24/09/2006 03:18:23 Originally by: Kaiu You can kill recons in a bubble, your tacklers/inty just arent good enough pilots... They are filling the role they were designed for. They do it very well imo as well NOS and ECM are 'unbalanced' atm imo but i think if CCP can find a workable 'fix' for them then the issues you have will go away. As for warping cloaked, i think it would be rather silly if they couldnt The creator of this thread sounds reasonable, and i put a bit of respect aside for the poster trying to do a serious conversation. But he doesn't know what he's talking about really "curse can't warp cloaked, in fact it has nothing over any other ship getting a cloak", and I agree with the person in my quote 100%.
Zafriel TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:19:00 - [9] where did he say that a curse could warp cloaked? I ♥ Tenacha Khan
Christopher Multsanti Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:31:00 - [10] Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Edited by: Emperor D''Hoffryn on 24/09/2006 02:59:11 Only half the recon cruisers can warp while cloaked. The curse is not one of them. edit also, the pilgrim, which can warp while cloaked, loses one of those so broken bonuses to nos, the nos range bonus, for the cloak CPU bonus, which is what allows it to fit the covert ops cloak, and warp while cloak. The curse can nos from 31km+, the pilgrim has standard medium nos range, a big tradeoff for ability to cloak. The most powerful aspect of recons is not recons themselves, but all the ECM that they allow to be fielded. FIX ECM(jammers), and the other problems you mention will no longer be problems. I am not really sure saying that the pilgrim lossing extra nos range is a big trade off for flying cloaked as you dont need the nos range when you can get right up besides someone cloaked. It also still gets the nos transfer ammount bonus. Apart from that , I don't agree with lunas on this one, i have no problems with recons. Sorry Lunny <Kurenin> Oh hello Christopher Exploitisanti!
DubanFP Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.24 03:34:00 - [11] Originally by: Zafriel where did he say that a curse could warp cloaked? Originally by: So whats wrong with recon Cruisers?? Well there is alot wrong actually and here is why.. 1. Ability to warp whiled cloaked. The poster never mentioned just Force Recons, and was talking about the curse as the primary example. It MAY be due to the lack of english skills, but it seems that the poster is including all Recon Cruisers with this ability.
Hakiem	Posted - 2006.09.24 04:26:00 - [12] Someone just got owned by a recon cruiser. They are fine if you do not know how to counter them learn or go fly them and die.
Bewl	Posted - 2006.09.24 04:37:00 - [13] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Zafriel where did he say that a curse could warp cloaked? Originally by: So whats wrong with recon Cruisers?? Well there is alot wrong actually and here is why.. 1. Ability to warp whiled cloaked. The poster never mentioned just Force Recons, and was talking about the curse as the primary example. It MAY be due to the lack of english skills, but it seems that the poster is including all Recon Cruisers with this ability. Nowhere in his post did he once mention a Curse. The thread topic is Recon Cruisers the "Curse" in Modern PVP. By curse, he doesnt mean the ship, he referes to the actual meaning of the word. You play EVE way to much.... well.. I kind of do too. I actually called my Microwave a 'Microwarp' to my fiancee the other day.
Trem Sinval Sinval Enterprises	Posted - 2006.09.24 04:47:00 - [14] Originally by: Bewl I actually called my Microwave a 'Microwarp' to my fiancee the other day. Set your burrito to 2km/sec on high! - Trem
Darpz Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.09.24 05:13:00 - [15] you have to remember though the afk cloaked strat was not pioneered by recons It was pioneerd by a standard covert with an alt logged in system. which tbh is more effective since a T2 BE raven can wip thru a rating BS before it knew what hit him and disapear bagck into a safe before anyone in local could respond. Also recons are paper and there dps is anemic, and tbh any good group in a system should be able to fend one off if everyone that was rating responded to belt to put some dps on it. (don't rat alone with one in system)
Dahin Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.24 05:35:00 - [16] I have to agree to a certain point. Having a covops in your sol cloaked 23/7 and never knowing when he's active or not is pretty scary (hi 68ft ) and it's pretty much a play-with nerves game. But I'm not REALLY against that, because in reality, it's just turning the uber all-seeing local into your enemies disadvantage by seeding fear while you're (mainly) afk. Isn't that ironic? The covops tactic is more than counterable, since a hostile non-covops has to be in the sol and you can see him coming (what? he's in a cloaked raven? haha, sucks to be you, this is a general problem sourcing from the fact that every ship can use a cloak and you can't probe cloakers). As if the things were not bad enough, the new ships combine best of both worlds. Combining the covops cloak (which is pretty much the key point in this tactic since the scout can't be seen warping to the belt) and the bonuses of those ships, it's pretty much every afk'ers dream. Man, I mean look at the bonuses, in many cases they're way more effective than a BS, especially the pilgrim. (don't underestimate the arazu, the rats may steal your killmails but it's still as effective). "I go afk, and when I come back, I either have solo-killed an entire hostile sol without doing anything or I get juicy ratting targets". The only cloaker that I find acceptable is the minmatar one. It has a specific role, can be used for some serious surprise parties and is not all-around pwnmobile. It's not nerfed, it's right. Anyway, I have no real problems with the non-cloaking recons, none at all. Actually I liked their addition since they changed the possible tactics. BUT, hopefully, with the introduction of kali (have patience, I don't see it coming any time soon), the cloakers will be probeable. Hence my main gripe will be gone, but they can STILL warp cloaked, which is still a problem. Why on earth give them just half the bonuses? Any cloak & dagger user would trade half his recon bonus for a covops cloak and they actually do it (just compare ship prices to find out). The cloaking recons are supposed to sneak in and shoot a cyno, their pvp bonuses make no sense. Well I guess they couldn't find any serious bonuses to find for the ship, since, let's face it, the 50% cyno field duration and the role in general looks like it came after desperately trying to find a new shiptype/shiprole for months. It just doesn't cut it and I think they are more of a problem that a new eve toy. Finally. For the Hakiem types: No, not really. We did not get ganked and we came to the forums whining. We actually gank people in those ships and employ all the described tactics against our enemies (well, actually against everyone but our friends). And it's working good, too good tbh. As lunas, I'm just pointing out that the tools employed by me and the others really problematic for the eve in general, despite the fact it brings us mucho kills and operational effectiveness (god I love depriving of the hobbits their dear roids, makes me wake up horny in the morning).
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.24 05:59:00 - [17] Fully agree with the OP. A cloak should not be such a perfect recipee for unfindability => invincibility. Two possible solutions I can think of, one is make scanning stronger(thought that is actually planned for Kali), the second would be to make recon ships require fuel for their cloak, just like cynofields (heavy water seems a reasonable choice for fuel IMO). That way they become less solo/small group ships, and more for recon for large fleets who can carry enough fuel to supply them regularly.
Lienzo	Posted - 2006.09.24 06:16:00 - [18] Cloaking modules should use charges. Smaller, less individually combat-capable ships should use them more efficiently in the following order. -Covert Ops Frigate: -Can cloak for hours at a time, 1/3 of a day or so (~8hrs). -Stealth Bomber: Half as long on cloak cycling time. -Recon Cruiser: Half as long again, and reduce cargo hold. Aggressive use of Recons means using the cloak selectively if the op is going to last more than 2hrs. Use of non-warping cloaks on other ships is also worth nerfing in terms of time limits and sustainability. Please note that for seige or other use, a friendly ship can always deliver an anchored can of more cloaking charges, but they still have to come from somewhere. I always suggest that they be constructible from moon materials by default to expand that market. Also, the stealth bomber needs to be able to warp cloaked. It might have been logical before, but the wtfpwn of Recons really clouds the design distribution.
Buxaroo Black Dwarf Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.09.24 06:23:00 - [19] Edited by: Buxaroo on 24/09/2006 06:24:58 Edited by: Buxaroo on 24/09/2006 06:24:18 Originally by: Dahin (don't underestimate the arazu, the rats may steal your killmails but it's still as effective). This has me perplexed. Last night we killed a RA guy in a arazu, about 5 of us on him, and he went pop......but no one got a killmail....and no rats were in the vicinity. Is this some kind of bug or are you talking about generally if they are in the belts ganking npcers and the rat lays the final blow? I just found it wierd that none of us got the killmail and there were no rats around that I saw (this was at a gate btw).
Noriath	Posted - 2006.09.24 06:23:00 - [20] Any ship is nearly untouchable in the hands of an exprienced pilot, it's really not the fault of cloaks. Cloaks just just make it acctually impossible to kill someone who doesn't want to be killed, whereas for every other ship it's just "practically impossible" ... The only way to really get someone with some skill at evasion and a fast ship by the balls in Eve is a bubblecamp, the cloaks really aren't the cause of that problem...
mematar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.24 06:59:00 - [21] Originally by: Buxaroo Edited by: Buxaroo on 24/09/2006 06:24:58 Edited by: Buxaroo on 24/09/2006 06:24:18 Originally by: Dahin (don't underestimate the arazu, the rats may steal your killmails but it's still as effective). This has me perplexed. Last night we killed a RA guy in a arazu, about 5 of us on him, and he went pop......but no one got a killmail....and no rats were in the vicinity. Is this some kind of bug or are you talking about generally if they are in the belts ganking npcers and the rat lays the final blow? I just found it wierd that none of us got the killmail and there were no rats around that I saw (this was at a gate btw). Petition it under stuck and state that no one in gang got the killmail. Make sure you say what system and the name of the char. GM's usually will send you the killmail. Ive done it like 20 times lol.
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.24 07:03:00 - [22] Edited by: Nikolai Nuvolari on 24/09/2006 07:03:37 I'd like to respond to the arguments of the post itself, but it's written with such utter disregard for the English language that I feel I would dirty myself to do so. Just having read it, I already feel like taking a shower. Read over your post, run it through spellcheck, and learn that NO WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARE SPELLED WITH THE NUMBER "8" IN THEM GODDAMNIT! Oh, and nerf Amarr recons. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108! byahahahahaha!11 Sig Pwnt - Immy
Dred'Pirate Jesus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.09.24 07:11:00 - [23] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Oh, and nerf Amarr recons. STFU.. I just got my Curse and am currently enjoying the wtfpwnage.. Plz let me enjoy it for a little while longer.. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ [2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" :
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.24 07:29:00 - [24] Lets wait for the ECM nerf. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath For 50, you can have my goat:P- Tirg
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.24 07:34:00 - [25] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Oh, and nerf Amarr recons. Lets just delete Amarr from the game, since the recons are pretty much the only proper ship Amarr have left. But dont worry, when our beloved tux nerfs ~~Amarr into oblivion~~ nos then those ships will be crap just like the other Amarr boats out there.
Yolan Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.24 07:40:00 - [26] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Edited by: Nikolai Nuvolari on 24/09/2006 07:03:37 I'd like to respond to the arguments of the post itself, but it's written with such utter disregard for the English language that I feel I would dirty myself to do so. Just having read it, I already feel like taking a shower. Read over your post, run it through spellcheck, and learn that NO WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARE SPELLED WITH THE NUMBER "8" IN THEM GODDAMNIT! Oh, and nerf Amarr recons. Stop being an ass, the OP native language is not English. I would like to see you try to write a post in his native tongue. Recons are slightly overpowered but not massively so imo, personally I think the upcoming EW changes will balance them out nicely.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.09.24 07:42:00 - [27] Actually as long as the ECM/NOS nerf is Global i'll have no problems with it.. Ship Bonus FTW.. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ [2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" :
Deamos Quintessential Continuum.	Posted - 2006.09.24 08:13:00 - [28] In the begining of Eve, ECM was not chance based...but would usually take one full scorpion to ECM jam another BS. Then came the first ECM nerf which made target jamming a chance based system. Now one ship can jam up to 3-4 ships but not 100% of the time. Now theres another ECM Nerf coming? Come on people, stop crying if you cant target someone because you are ECMed and start fitting ECCM modules. Seriously, at the rate people complain, all modules will be considered unbalanced because pilot XYZ got hopelessly slaughted because he was not properly fitted. It's gone from Warp Stabs to ECM modules, to just about the entire EW tier. You don't hear me complaining because I got caught in a bubble or killed by some fleet blob. It happens. The only unbalanced thing in Eve is lag and none of us can help that. My 2 cents...
GLok Caldari Unauthorised.	Posted - 2006.09.24 08:20:00 - [29] I agree in some respects. It does seem a little much to allow cruisers to warp cloaked and escape almost any situation. But can i just ask why no-one complains about cov-ops frigates being able to do it? Simple really because its what they are there for. Well its the same with the recon ships (not including the ones without the ability to warp cloaked) Plus as far as im aware, dont you have to wait a few seconds before you can lock something when coming out of cloak? This would surely give you enough time to run away or start fighting back? Anyways i always found thats the case unless cov-ops ships have some unknown bonus which isnt mentioned in their description? Oh and sorry for bad spelling. I just woke up --------------------
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.24 08:24:00 - [30] Edited by: Nikolai Nuvolari on 24/09/2006 08:24:47 Originally by: Yolan Stop being an ass, the OP native language is not English. Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize that in his language, "l8tr" would be the correct spelling. Because so many languages use the letter "8". I don't care what language you speak natively, there's nothing preventing you from running your long-ass post through Spellcheck. Originally by: Yolan I would like to see you try to write a post in his native tongue. These are English-only forums so he can put a bit of effort into writing IN ENGLISH properly or get somebody else to post for him. Or get the hell out. My Spanish is pretty half-assed, so do I go posting Splanglish crap onto Spanish-only forums? Hell no. I see no evidence here that this guy speaks any non-English language other than AOLspeak. And if he was raised in an AOLspeaking household, then dear god the Earth is doomed. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108! byahahahahaha!11 Sig Pwnt - Immy
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.24 08:24:00 - [31] I think that the real problem are not the ships himself but the modules that they use, namely the Jammers and the NOS. I think that we all agree that they are not working right and they are overpowered, if CCP fix this, the recon ships will work like they are supposed to work. I'm anxious to see the deploy of Kali where they are supposed to introduce some balancing in this. We will see.
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.24 08:26:00 - [32] The Rise in the new generation of StabbaCurses, which fiend upto 10k shield with crazy resits, enough WCS to escape most gangs and upto 400dps will mean that this is a cheap vagabond pilots ship :) --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Wild Rho Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.24 08:42:00 - [33] I think some people are beginning to confuse "effective" with overpowered. The warp recon cruisers have their nice in Pvp and fill it superbly. However if it was overpowered the majority of people would be using them (and they aren't). The idea of cloaks requiring "charges" to use is a good one, however I'd say make the exception the covert ops cloak users who can run their cloak forever. My main argument for that would be that it's the primary aspect of the ship that seperates it from others and it is heavily dependant on this ability to function. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.24 08:48:00 - [34] Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Oh, and nerf Amarr recons. Lets just delete Amarr from the game, since the recons are pretty much the only proper ship Amarr have left. But dont worry, when our beloved tux nerfs ~~Amarr into oblivion~~ nos then those ships will be crap just like the other Amarr boats out there. I only fly amarr ships and I'm starting to be a bit tired of the "Amarr ships suuux treads". What is wrong is the EW and the Nos overpower. You dont have to be a genious to work on a set to win all 1vs1 duels... even if you fit a Apoc based on High slots full of Nos + neutralizers + some smart bombs with mediums full of jammers and in the lows a good Tank and some cap relays you will be surprised ...
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2006.09.24 09:04:00 - [35] What happened to the adapt or die stuff I read so much ?
Deamos Quintessential Continuum.	Posted - 2006.09.24 09:15:00 - [36] Originally by: Sirial Soulfly What happened to the adapt or die stuff I read so much ? It seems people's way of adapting is to complain about it until some higher power (CCP) changes it so they don't die. This game starts moving more and more towards a carebear game.
Nafri Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.24 09:23:00 - [37] the cloaked ships shouldnt have the EW boni the combat versions get, or well, just one of it. Pilgrim should have tracking disruptor bonus, but nothing else Arazu should have Dampening bonus, but nothing else Falcon should have 1x ECM bonus, but nothing else Rapirer should have target painting bonus, but nothing else then give them a bonus to probing speed that would make them less of a solo pwn mobile, but more of teamships which can cloak. Basicly, a bit bigger covert ops ships From Dusk till Dawn
Ilmonstre Minmatar 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.09.24 09:43:00 - [38] Originally by: Nafri the cloaked ships shouldnt have the EW boni the combat versions get, or well, just one of it. Pilgrim should have tracking disruptor bonus, but nothing else Arazu should have Dampening bonus, but nothing else Falcon should have 1x ECM bonus, but nothing else Rapirer should have target painting bonus, but nothing else then give them a bonus to probing speed that would make them less of a solo pwn mobile, but more of teamships which can cloak. Basicly, a bit bigger covert ops ships there will be a special probe launcher for the recons with kali if i am not mistaken but it will be with the probing overhaul as was mentioned in a devblog about it
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.09.24 09:47:00 - [39] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 24/09/2006 09:47:49 Originally by: Nafri the cloaked ships shouldnt have the EW boni the combat versions get, or well, just one of it. Pilgrim should have tracking disruptor bonus, but nothing else Arazu should have Dampening bonus, but nothing else Falcon should have 1x ECM bonus, but nothing else Rapirer should have target painting bonus, but nothing else then give them a bonus to probing speed that would make them less of a solo pwn mobile, but more of teamships which can cloak. Basicly, a bit bigger covert ops ships Nah. The cloaking recons are fine as they are (in fact, they are a bit underpowered in the value-for-isk department, but that's due to the ridiculous prices of covops cloaks). The only one that qualifies as a "solo pwnmobile" is the Pilgrim, and even that one needs quite a bit of skill to make it work. The others have the firepower of a bag full of kittens -- sure, a good pilot can solo in them, but they are far from being "uber". They also lack any sort of tanking ability (bar the Pilgrim, again). Otoh, the Pilgrim isn't that hot in gangs, where the others start to shine. They're fine.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.09.24 09:53:00 - [40] Originally by: Nafri that would make them less of a solo pwn mobile Considering the cost and skill training involved, whats wrong with them being 'solo pwn mobiles'? Dark Shikari>Death Kill, saying that anime is a fetish makes you racist.
Xthril Ranger hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.24 10:22:00 - [41] Regular cloaks need to uncloack a short while when he becomes active and move to a useful spot. A cov op doesnt need that, but he can rarely kill you alone unless you are afk or something. There will be at least one ship that are visible and can be spotted before you die. The recon ships can kill something alone, so you might get no warning at all that a ship that have been inactive for 10 hours suddenly got you in your sight. That is something new in the idle cloaker tactic. you'll never jump alone
Infinity Ziona Privateers	Posted - 2006.09.24 10:26:00 - [42] The other day I attacked a 5 month old Raven pilot in my Arazu. He just laughed at me in local cause the Arazu damage is **e. Today I attacked a Zealot in my Arazu, I was going good till he got a lock (3 damps) and then was pwned in about 20 seconds losing Cov Cloak, Arazu, T2 drones, guns and launchers. You see while they are really good ships, they have **e damage and can't tank for crap and when you lose them, it costs you 100 million plus. Thats a fair tradeoff imo. Are Alliances Pushing You Around?
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.24 11:22:00 - [43] Originally by: DeadDuck I think that the real problem are not the ships himself but the modules that they use, namely the Jammers and the NOS. I think that we all agree that they are not working right and they are overpowered, if CCP fix this, the recon ships will work like they are supposed to work. The real problem are NOS and ECM whiners that dont want to fit counter modules, which DO exist and DO work.
xlop Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.24 11:23:00 - [44] Originally by: Lord WarATron The Rise in the new generation of StabbaCurses, which fiend upto 10k shield with crazy resits, enough WCS to escape most gangs and upto 400dps will mean that this is a cheap vagabond pilots ship :) indeed but its not really comparable to the**abond. the**a has much lower sig. much higher acceleration. much higher speed! also half the dps of the curse is drone dependant which can be poped and also lost if u warp away in a hurry. but on the plus side its got much more resistance! more resistant to damping! more ecm resistant! more cap!
Tate Iceni Caldari Iceni Combat and Logistical Support	Posted - 2006.09.24 11:28:00 - [45] All covert ops ships take a fair amount of training time and cost a fortune to fit properly; including the frigates. So - you want to take away their ability to warp cloaked. Which takes away the one truely great advantage these ships have above anything else; which means you'd need to balance the ship up to actually get anyone to fly it. Congratulations - you've just made a super-expensive cruiser thats no different to any other cruiser (except it costs more). So many people complain about specialist ships being overpowered without considering WHY they are specialist ships. They are not uber-kill alls, they are uber-kill you because you have your ship fitted to go up against something else. If you then start to complain about their EW fit not allowing you to kill them then I'll counter with a call to nerf shield extenders + modifiers because they won't let me kill you. All the calls to nerf this and nerf that makes me think that these people want a game where everyone is flying around in Ravens with identical fits just so that they know exactly what they're going to go up against. If your still flying out fitted for fighting BS's when you know recons are hanging around in your area - then get jammed up because you can't counter them fast enough (and you can counter them; if you don't have the skills/modules thats your problem); then I suggest thats your fault. A newb can't kill a BS in a Bantam - you don't hear them (very often) yelling "OMG NERF RAVENS COS THEY OMGWTFPWNZ".
xlop Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.24 11:30:00 - [46] Originally by: Deva Blackfire The real problem are NOS and ECM whiners that dont want to fit counter modules, which DO exist and DO work. keep crying, the devs have said they intend to nerf ecm, guess why? cos its overpowered! and for nos it is overpowered too!
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.24 11:34:00 - [47] Originally by: xlop Originally by: Deva Blackfire The real problem are NOS and ECM whiners that dont want to fit counter modules, which DO exist and DO work. keep crying, the devs have said they intend to nerf ecm, guess why? cos its overpowered! and for nos it is overpowered too! Ummm you are saying this like if i was surprised or scared that my setup wont work. Instead of nosf ill use nosf+neuter combo (already doing this), instead of ECM 3x damps. Most of you see only the current setups but fail to see what will happen AFTER changes.
Waxau Liberty Rogues Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2006.09.24 12:06:00 - [48] Edited by: Waxau on 24/09/2006 12:06:38 recons arent overpowered. Infact, the force recons are fine. And the combat recons (some) are underpowered if anything. Yet nothing to whine about. So quite complaining. Pilgrim has a loss in nos range, falcon cant jam as well/do damage, huggin/rapier....no idea..heard theyre both crap lol. And the lachesis and arazu are both paper thin, and only main difference is that the lachesis does some actual damage. If you believe recon ships, and force recons at that are useless, overpowered, wasteful, money-making techniqued, unfair, and unbalanced ships then thats ure paradyme. cloaks, and covert spying is what makes eve so intellectual in pvp. I dont give a damn about people hauling stuff in them. Travelling thru 0.0 etc? they wont survive if they meet a bubble easily. You just need a relatively intelligent fleet to find a recon, unless its spying on you. in which case its just like any covert ops frig. Yet theyre not overpowered:P Only difference is that recon ships have a use in the fleet at NEUTRALISING the target(s). Can i point out however the problem with most force recons....take your example of the pilgrim. What you failed to realise is that is can only have 5 medium drones. Out of those 5....it can only have 2 spare i think. Now, say you found a target...youd uncloak and launch drones. Now what if you had to run? - If you cloak you lose contact with your drones. Even if ure 3k from them, you still lose them. On top of that, you cant cloak when theyre orbitting you as they orbit close. So technically its useless whilst cloaked. On top of that with the nos range, it cant nos furrther than 12km. So it doesnt take much for him to be too close to cloak, therefore its roles eliminated. Know the facts before you start ranting about something being overpowered. Recon ships arent overpowered, its that your characters underpowered. <Btw sorry if i sound rude, but all these nerf posts are outright carelessness. Know the ship, know the other side of the arguement, and then whine>
Goberth Ludwig eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.24 12:27:00 - [49] Originally by: Nafri the cloaked ships shouldnt have the EW boni the combat versions get, or well, just one of it. Pilgrim should have tracking disruptor bonus, but nothing else Arazu should have Dampening bonus, but nothing else Falcon should have 1x ECM bonus, but nothing else Rapirer should have target painting bonus, but nothing else then give them a bonus to probing speed that would make them less of a solo pwn mobile, but more of teamships which can cloak. Basicly, a bit bigger covert ops ships qft - Gob [IXC] Admiral Goberius
Zarina Xalta Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2006.09.24 12:30:00 - [50] Oh snap! Was an Amarr ship just mentioned in a whine thread? That was against the ship? I will be damned.
Cartiff Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.24 12:37:00 - [51] Lunas is danish, and abit of a newb when it comes to writing. ----------------------------------- "Uggs386 > omfg i like little boys" Originally by: Milivikal DeWrar GoonSwarm: powered by static electricty from polysci and law nerds rubbing stubble in thought.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.09.24 12:41:00 - [52] Edited by: Plutoinum on 24/09/2006 12:42:00 I don't know, how fast a recon cruiser gets into warp but with enough fast reacting ceptors it should be catchable in a bubble. I mean occasionally you also get a covert ops, before it warps away, if the ceptors are fast and manage to decloak the covert, before it leaves the bubble. (At least it was the case months ago) The vulnerability of cloaked afk ships si supposed to change with kali and I think also that it's time for it. Then covert ops will be scannable with the new scanner, but you still have to decloak them afaik. I suppose we'll get new means to decloak them. Don't think CCP wants us to find a cloaked ship in a 70km radius sphere or so, if we consider the current inaccuracy of probes and the 2km decloak range
Kaiu Hinkledolph and K Associates The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.09.24 12:45:00 - [53] Recons are NOT overpowered - They have a role and they fulfill it NOS and ECM have to and will change, this has been debated on these forums over and over, time and again...the change will come. Then, only the ships bonuses will apply, we will have to wait and see how 'balanced' the recons are then TBH if you cant kill a cruiser, you have serious dps issues ____________________ MOGarmy
xlop Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.24 13:02:00 - [54] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: xlop Originally by: Deva Blackfire The real problem are NOS and ECM whiners that dont want to fit counter modules, which DO exist and DO work. keep crying, the devs have said they intend to nerf ecm, guess why? cos its overpowered! and for nos it is overpowered too! Ummm you are saying this like if i was surprised or scared that my setup wont work. Instead of nosf ill use nosf+neuter combo (already doing this), instead of ECM 3x damps. Most of you see only the current setups but fail to see what will happen AFTER changes. Nosf are overpowered because the bigger the nosf the better! ECM is overpowered because it one mid slot has over 50% chance of shutting down upto 8high slots and any offensive mid slots! and neutrilising most low slots [ie dmg mods are a wast if ur jamed, or low slot tracking mods or low slot sensor boosters ect] so one slot can shut down with over 50% chance 15+ slots! that is balance! Damps are also overpowered but in light of ecm they dont seem so, but hopefully tehy will see the nerf stick too tracking desrupters should effect just range or just tracking not both!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.24 14:09:00 - [55] The AFK issue is the same for all ships, though. A raven can fit a cloak and afk for 10 hours in a system jst as well as a force recon can. And anyway with kali cloaked ships will be scannable so this point is moot. The other thing, that cloaked ships can avoid camps easier is also true for our beloved vagabounds. It's not really a force recon only issue.
kahle Paralex Research	Posted - 2006.09.24 14:35:00 - [56] firstly Linkage now thats out of the way, on topic. the bonus for some of the recons do seem a little over the top and people will defend their choice of recons. some people have specifically trained for the amarr recons even though they would have never used that race ships in the past.
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.24 14:49:00 - [57] I keep hearing that cloaked ships will scanable in Kali. Can anyone post the link where I can see this plz. Also as regards recon ships being uber the one recon that seems to stand out from the crowd for solo pvp is the Pilgrim. I see alot of my corpmates soloing blasterax's and other turret ships quite often. I'm not knocking their skills as I know those guys have put the time and effort into using them to great effect. I would however like to see ppl soloing tanked BS's like this in other recons. I cannot really see it happening on a regular basis with a Rapier for example and if it is done I would imagine it's unusual circumstances or the pilot of that BS has a crap fit or useless tanking skills etc. So lets hear from anyone who has solo'd a BS in any other recon than a pilfrim plz.
Nathrezim Gallente Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.24 15:05:00 - [58] Originally by: Plutoinum Don't think CCP wants us to find a cloaked ship in a 70km radius sphere or so, if we consider the current inaccuracy of probes and the 2km decloak range Giv XL smartbombs.. 60km range or something like that.. :P Or a titan's superweapon wouldnt uncloak (well, kill actually :P ) the cloaker? Or it needs visual contact of the target? Anyway, as Lunas stated in his first post, this aint a whine thread.. He was just pondering some things and needed some more opinions.. Oh and to that smarta$$, Nikolai or something like that, cant be arsed to check right now, well, just so you know, the world doesnt spin around english. He was typing in english, you just need some imagination and luck sometimes to get the point ;) Anyway, do this community a favor and dont post unless you have something to say to contribute to a conversation. Noone cares how much time you spent reading the post and how ''dirty you feel after reading it''.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.24 15:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson So lets hear from anyone who has solo'd a BS in any other recon than a pilfrim plz. An arazu can dampen any BS well below 10 km targeting range and a falcon..well, ECM. The advantage of a pilgrim is that it can kill the tank fast with it's nos, the other recons have it harder to break it. If the target has a ratting tank, though, which isn't against the damage types the recon uses a falcon or arazu should not have much of an issue killing it though.
Zooish	Posted - 2006.09.24 15:24:00 - [60] Complete a utter rubbish, CCP finally get a ship class that is fun amd workable and its straight to the forums .... Any decent gate camp will see a recon cloak and beheading straight to the spot while it tries to wiggle away at 200 m/s .. bad pilots always blames its tools . Comparing a 200 mill isk recon ship to a normal cruiser is laughable ... Also, we all know that ECM is borked, thats why 80% of all the ships in eve are running around with it on. But a ship designed to jam, jam .... Oh my god.
Jane Vladmir Gallente Warmongers	Posted - 2006.09.24 15:53:00 - [61] They're fine. If you can't catch 'em keep practicing, you'll get it eventually.
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.24 17:20:00 - [62] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson So lets hear from anyone who has solo'd a BS in any other recon than a pilfrim plz. An arazu can dampen any BS well below 10 km targeting range and a falcon..well, ECM. The advantage of a pilgrim is that it can kill the tank fast with it's nos, the other recons have it harder to break it. If the target has a ratting tank, though, which isn't against the damage types the recon uses a falcon or arazu should not have much of an issue killing it though. I know an Arazu can dampen and a Falcon can keep jamming them but how many ppl have actually solo killed a pvp fitted BS with them? Unless the BS is drained of cap they should be able to tank the damage the other recons can do as their damage output isnt great. The damage output on a Pilgrim isnt that great either but since it sucks the cap that doesn't really matter since its target can't maintain its cap. I'm not saying other Recons can't and it hasn't happened, but I don't want to hear theoretical if's and maybes but actually have some examples of when it has been done. I look forward to hearing anyone who has done this. No "I have a friend" or "I have a friend of a friend" comments. If you haven't done it yourself show the link to the killmail or post it if it doesn't break the forum rules.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.24 17:40:00 - [63] Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson I know an Arazu can dampen and a Falcon can keep jamming them but how many ppl have actually solo killed a pvp fitted BS with them? Unless the BS is drained of cap they should be able to tank the damage the other recons can do as their damage output isnt great. The damage output on a Pilgrim isnt that great either but since it sucks the cap that doesn't really matter since its target can't maintain its cap. "pvp fitted BS" != "BS" Yes, solo against a PvP fitted an arazu or falcon will get problems ("problems" in terms of not breaking the tank, no it getting killed by it). But alone you usually go after ratters. Solo the pilgrim is stronger, thats no question. But the arazu or falcon are quite effective in a more limited way, too. And - IMO - their abilities are more useful in groups than the amarr recons. The only really "bad" solo recon is the minnie one (although that one is highly effective in catching those annoying inty gnats which are quite common in 0.0). Also, as solo "powerplayer" with high survivability the vaga is still > pilgrim. Can avoid bubblecamps due to speed just as well and has an higher dps. Quote: ..If you haven't done it yourself show the link to the killmail or post it if it doesn't break the forum rules. Technically it is allowed, but considering that for example Sarmaul got his 10th warning (and permaban) for posting a killmail in general (where there is no rule against it) it seems to be kinda "flexible".
DrEiak Amarr IONSTAR Vox Imperium	Posted - 2006.09.24 18:10:00 - [64] I like recons. I am happy amarr have a ship worth flying. I do think that ECM is broken. Anyways, I have always thought smartbombs should have a larger range, and maybe a longer recharge time. I would like CCP to add some more skills to smartbombs making them a more useful module. Perhaps they could do something like make different kinds of smartbombs, but an idea that i had was a module (like a smartbomb) with a long reactivation time and a long range (maybe like 5 minute reactivate) but had a range of about 20km that does not do much damage, but would decloak a ship. I would also like to see a skill that increases range of smartbombs. But then again I think that large smartbombs should have a range of ~10km (perhaps leave range at 7.5km but add in a skill that would make 10km possible). Of corse I also thought it was funny that they are called smartbombs, when they hit EVERYTHING, should be called Omnis, Novas something of the like, but not smartbombs. ALSO ships like the curse/pilgrim are not indestructable, they have nice resistances, but their tanks is not as tough as a HAC, or tanked battleship. Ultimatly smartbombs will render a curse offenseless, and NOS might still be something to contend with, but if you have missles, or projectiles they dont use any cap, so i wouldnt complain too much. All in all the curse is a great ship, but the only people nos nerfs hurt are amarr, since gallente and amarr are the only races that have to contend with cap usage when fireing (DONT YOU DARE SAY CALDARI, caldari rail boats are snipers, if your getting NOSed you deserve it). Anyways, some of my thoughts on recons, and cloaks. OH gallente got drones too, and i hear a lot of people say the way to beat curse/pilgrim is just to send drones after them. I wonder if CCP is ever going to make warp scramble drones O.o
Pairadice Caldari Paradise Venture	Posted - 2006.09.24 18:26:00 - [65] I stopped reading when I saw "eksperience".
Xianthar Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.24 19:48:00 - [66] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood eksperience honetly i didn't make it past that...the irony killed me. -xian
Xeliya	Posted - 2006.09.24 21:12:00 - [67] Even though it has been said is many different posts I will point out the facts on the other side of the argument. True Cov Ops - They require alot of skill - They do crap DPS - They have huge EW bonus to make up for the lack of tank/dps - They cost around 200mill for a standard setup which only about 10mill is insured Half Cov Ops - They require alot of skill - They have ok DPS - They can't cloak when warping, they lose 75% speed while cloaked, the can't target for 5 sec after uncloaking (WITH MAXED SKILLS) - They can't tank worth crap either So all in all they are not solo pwn mobiles. I can 3-2 salvo a Falcon with a Raven with cruise missiles and that guy just lost 200-250mill. So all in all please stop crying because you got ganked by a gang of cov ops ships. It cost less to lose a T2 fitted battleship then one of these ships.
Riddari Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.24 21:13:00 - [68] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood its ruin good old days pvp where things got blown up.. ¼+¼ a history
Infinity Ziona Privateers	Posted - 2006.09.24 23:29:00 - [69] Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson So lets hear from anyone who has solo'd a BS in any other recon than a pilfrim plz. An arazu can dampen any BS well below 10 km targeting range and a falcon..well, ECM. The advantage of a pilgrim is that it can kill the tank fast with it's nos, the other recons have it harder to break it. If the target has a ratting tank, though, which isn't against the damage types the recon uses a falcon or arazu should not have much of an issue killing it though. I know an Arazu can dampen and a Falcon can keep jamming them but how many ppl have actually solo killed a pvp fitted BS with them? Unless the BS is drained of cap they should be able to tank the damage the other recons can do as their damage output isnt great. The damage output on a Pilgrim isnt that great either but since it sucks the cap that doesn't really matter since its target can't maintain its cap. I'm not saying other Recons can't and it hasn't happened, but I don't want to hear theoretical if's and maybes but actually have some examples of when it has been done. I look forward to hearing anyone who has done this. No "I have a friend" or "I have a friend of a friend" comments. If you haven't done it yourself show the link to the killmail or post it if it doesn't break the forum rules. I killed a Raven in a Arazu once. But it was afk in a belt But to answer to your question properly, I have t2 med hybrid, t2 drones and all the relevent damage skills trained and I cant break a properly fitted BS tank in a realistic amount of time. Blasters instead of rails would help but I doubt it would help enough. Are Alliances Pushing You Around?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.24 23:33:00 - [70] Although blasters wouldn't really be a realistic option if you use sensor damps.
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.25 00:47:00 - [71] Nice one infinity! BTW Aramendel I wasn't saying the others were crap I was just asking if ppl used the other types to solo kill BS size targets. I know what the ships can do as I use both Caldari and Minmatar recons but I also know that if I used them for solo pvp'ing I'd have to be alot more carefull/lucky than if I waited another 2 weeks and trained up Amarr cruiser 5 so I can use the pilgrim as well.
Dahin Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.25 02:02:00 - [72] Edited by: Dahin on 25/09/2006 02:03:49 Originally by: Infinity Ziona The other day I attacked a 5 month old Raven pilot in my Arazu. He just laughed at me in local cause the Arazu damage is **e. Today I attacked a Zealot in my Arazu, I was going good till he got a lock (3 damps) and then was pwned in about 20 seconds losing Cov Cloak, Arazu, T2 drones, guns and launchers. You see while they are really good ships, they have **e damage and can't tank for crap and when you lose them, it costs you 100 million plus. Thats a fair tradeoff imo. If you pay attention to the bonuses, you can be invincible to ANY battleship without sensorboosters (yups, those damn rathunters). You just tail them till there's a spawn that can't be permatanked (like 3 bs) and then simply dampen then and orbit outside their maxlock range. You don't need dps to kill him, the rats do it for you, quite effectively too. Hence the killmail stealing. There's a specific fit that gives you enough scramrange to be outside their locking range. Could be the 3-damp + scrams, not sure. In contrast to the other recons, the target has 0 chance of countering you (unless he's sensorboosted) and much smaller chances of escaping (since you do have more than one scrams)
Foulis Minmatar Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.25 03:28:00 - [73] Edited by: Foulis on 25/09/2006 03:29:34 Edited by: Foulis on 25/09/2006 03:28:14 Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Edited by: Nikolai Nuvolari on 24/09/2006 07:03:37 I'd like to respond to the arguments of the post itself, but it's written with such utter disregard for the English language that I feel I would dirty myself to do so. Just having read it, I already feel like taking a shower. Read over your post, run it through spellcheck, and learn that NO WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARE SPELLED WITH THE NUMBER "8" IN THEM GODDAMNIT! Oh, and nerf Amarr recons. You're officially in my sig now. Edit: Or not... stupid text amount limiter Edit2: There we go. ---- Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari NO WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARE SPELLED WITH THE NUMBER "8" IN THEM GODDAMNIT!
Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.25 04:09:00 - [74] Originally by: Xianthar Originally by: Lunas Feelgood eksperience honetly i didn't make it past that...the irony killed me. -xian And yet your response starts with the word "HONETLY". ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.25 04:11:00 - [75] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Edited by: Nikolai Nuvolari on 24/09/2006 08:24:47 Originally by: Yolan Stop being an ass, the OP native language is not English. Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize that in his language, "l8tr" would be the correct spelling. Because so many languages use the letter "8". I don't care what language you speak natively, there's nothing preventing you from running your long-ass post through Spellcheck. Originally by: Yolan I would like to see you try to write a post in his native tongue. These are English-only forums so he can put a bit of effort into writing IN ENGLISH properly or get somebody else to post for him. Or get the hell out. My Spanish is pretty half-assed, so do I go posting Splanglish crap onto Spanish-only forums? Hell no. I see no evidence here that this guy speaks any non-English language other than AOLspeak. And if he was raised in an AOLspeaking household, then dear god the Earth is doomed. Did you get beat up a lot in school? ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Xianthar Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.25 04:27:00 - [76] Originally by: Wizie Originally by: Xianthar Originally by: Lunas Feelgood eksperience honetly i didn't make it past that...the irony killed me. -xian And yet your response starts with the word "HONETLY". good point. however, there is a difference between missing the 's' key by mistake and using the completely wrong letters and _numbers_ to spell words. -xian
Jao Ling	Posted - 2006.09.25 06:02:00 - [77] Originally by: Xianthar Originally by: Wizie Originally by: Xianthar Originally by: Lunas Feelgood eksperience honetly i didn't make it past that...the irony killed me. -xian And yet your response starts with the word "HONETLY". good point. however, there is a difference between missing the 's' key by mistake and using the completely wrong letters and _numbers_ to spell words. -xian As said before, not all people have english as their primary language. So stop being *******s about people not spelling correctly. Ignorant morons.
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.25 06:54:00 - [78] Originally by: Foulis You're officially in my sig now. \o/ That amuses me greatly. Originally by: Wizie Did you get beat up a lot in school? Nope. I got a reputation as a bit of a psycho. "Class bully" shoved me around a bit, so I turned around and broke his nose. Come to think of it...most of my friends still think I'm a bit of a psycho, albeit for different reasons... Originally by: Jao Ling Originally by: Xianthar there is a difference between missing the 's' key by mistake and using the completely wrong letters and _numbers_ to spell words. As said before, not all people have english as their primary language. Do I need to direct you to Foulis' signature? --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108! byahahahahaha!11 Sig Pwnt - Immy
Jao Ling	Posted - 2006.09.25 07:05:00 - [79] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Originally by: Foulis You're officially in my sig now. \o/ That amuses me greatly. Originally by: Wizie Did you get beat up a lot in school? Nope. I got a reputation as a bit of a psycho. "Class bully" shoved me around a bit, so I turned around and broke his nose. Come to think of it...most of my friends still think I'm a bit of a psycho, albeit for different reasons... Originally by: Jao Ling Originally by: Xianthar there is a difference between missing the 's' key by mistake and using the completely wrong letters and _numbers_ to spell words. As said before, not all people have english as their primary language. Do I need to direct you to Foulis' signature? I can't find his 'cause your signature takes up half the screen. And by the way; Funny when I look in your signature english apparently can have numbers... I didn't know "4tw" was enlgish either.
TuRtLe HeAd The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.09.25 07:50:00 - [80] I think they are fine. They PoP With Ease if you can hit them. Warp while cloaked ? Thats the whole point of them, Theres little or no point doing recon, if you get seen. One issue I have noticed is that yet again the Minmatar race comes short. They have a wicked webbing bonus, And A Lame Painter bonus. ]if you break it down it looks like this. Caldari, Jams you , you can't lock back And then you die. Gallente, Dampens you , you cant lock back, And Then you die. Amarr, Tracking Disrupts AND Noses you AND Drones you to death, So You can't hit them back Or Repair your self and get buggered by Drones. Minmatar Paints them and Webs them, you lock back, you fire back and you kill the recon ship. Thats the only imbalance.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.09.25 08:11:00 - [81] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson So lets hear from anyone who has solo'd a BS in any other recon than a pilfrim plz. An arazu can dampen any BS well below 10 km targeting range and a falcon..well, ECM. The advantage of a pilgrim is that it can kill the tank fast with it's nos, the other recons have it harder to break it. If the target has a ratting tank, though, which isn't against the damage types the recon uses a falcon or arazu should not have much of an issue killing it though. I get the feeling that most people on this thread don't fly recons themselves. If they did, they would know that yes, an Arazu can damp one bs to below 10km... and know that in most cases, that only results in a stalemate. The ship has 3 medium guns and a few drones, and you don't want to use blasters since that requires you to get close. You really think you're breaking the tank of a normal ratting battleship with 3 med railguns and a few med drones? Not going to happen. Even most decent ratting cruisers can tank that. It comes down to who gets bored first, or who has friends arriving to help first. Please, people, try the ships first before you make wild claims. The only serious solo cloaking recon is the Pilgrim, due to the cap-killing nosfe power and drones -- and even that dies easily in a lot of situations. The rest are mostly gang support ships -- you can solo in them, but it's very risky due to the lack of tank and the high price of the ship + cloak.
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.25 08:24:00 - [82] The force recons, while very powerfull, need to be used with care. I've seen several pilgrims with highly skilled pilots (talking about personal skill here) die because of just one small error in flying them. Just like with covert ops frigs once caught they die quickly for such an expensive ship. Originally by: Wrangler Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
Adrian Kerensky Nexus Legion Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.25 08:45:00 - [83] I fly two races of recon cruisers all the time, and guess what? I still fly T1 cruisers also. T1 cruisers aren't obsolete, they are still extremely viable PvP ships. Your cons on the recons are all very well and good, but you are forgetting that: On the whole they cost from 60-120 mill ISK each They can't be insured The setups on them, whilst not essential, are so much more effective with faction modules as to make not using faction silly. Meaning setups are also extremely expensive. Covert opps cloaks are in short supply and cost 70 mill each Unless you desperately feel the need to cloak, the combat recons are better combat ships anyway (I know that given the choice I would rather fly a curse over a pilgrim, you don't need to be able to cloak if you have good scanner skills)
Learesh Caldari The Old White Lion	Posted - 2006.09.25 08:49:00 - [84] Edited by: Learesh on 25/09/2006 08:49:02 Quote: Caldari, Jams you , you can't lock back And then you die. Gallente, Dampens you , you cant lock back, And Then you die. Amarr, Tracking Disrupts AND Noses you AND Drones you to death, So You can't hit them back Or Repair your self and get buggered by Drones. Minmatar Paints them and Webs them, you lock back, you fire back and you kill the recon ship. Huggin's R teh Sux yo ! Don't you go buyin' no Huggins !
TuRtLe HeAd The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.09.25 08:54:00 - [85] Arbitrator Vexor are teh Sexor ! Guess what, pilgrim/curse and Ishtar are the Sexors in their classes !
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.09.25 09:30:00 - [86] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 25/09/2006 09:32:51 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 25/09/2006 09:31:39 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 25/09/2006 09:30:41 Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd Caldari, Jams you , you can't lock back And then you die. Gallente, Dampens you , you cant lock back, And Then you die. Amarr, Tracking Disrupts AND Noses you AND Drones you to death, So You can't hit them back Or Repair your self and get buggered by Drones. Minmatar Paints them and Webs them, you lock back, you fire back and you kill the recon ship. Thats the only imbalance. Well, dunno. Granted, the Minmatar recons aren't wonderful solo ships, but as a pair a Lachesis + Huginn (or Arazu + Rapier) is evil beyond words. I've often wished for a minmatar recon in a gang, we've lost all too many kills due to the target making it to the gate and jumping. The only place I see the minnie recons getting solo kills is if they double web + paint frigates (or inties/AFs) and alpha strike them before they warp out. I have heard it's quite doable, recons lock fast. Bigger ships, no go. ...as for the breakdown, here's a fixed version: Caldari, Jams you , you can't lock back but you easily tank the damage and laugh (and force the recon to run if you had drones out or have FoF missiles) Gallente, Dampens you , you cant lock back but... (see Caldari above, with the addition of "or you MWD next to them and kill them, since damps don't work close-range") Amarr, Tracking Disrupts AND Noses you AND Drones you to death, So You can't hit them back Or Repair your self and get buggered by Drones -- except if you're in a passive tanked ship or have drones or have missiles, in which case the recon goes boom. Minmatar Paints them and Webs them, you lock back, you fire back and you kill the recon ship. This is pretty much true.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:19:00 - [87] Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd Arbitrator Vexor are teh Sexor ! Guess what, pilgrim/curse and Ishtar are the Sexors in their classes ! That's because drones = the win of close range. Scrapheap Challenge Forums - All the cool kids are doing it!
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:23:00 - [88] Alex what you said about ppl should fly them b4 they make the claims is very true thats why I asked for ppl who had actually used and solo'd in them. I don't feel Minmatar got the sh1tty end of the stick because when it comes to gatecamping with an interdictor in the gang the minnie recons rock. Just with level 3 in recon ships you can web targets up to 28km which is not to be sniffed at. Nik u r a t4rd hoo shood stfu and not complane abowt ppls speeling on the e-o forums! Either you are really an@ly retentive about spelling or you love yourself alot. Hmm I reckon it could be a mixture of the two with a pinch of an inferiority complex and a hint of self loathing since you know you are a wimp and couldn't stick up for yourself with the school bulley and lied about it in this forum!
oodin Euphoria Released	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:51:00 - [89] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Edited by: Nikolai Nuvolari on 24/09/2006 08:24:47 Originally by: Yolan Stop being an ass, the OP native language is not English. Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize that in his language, "l8tr" would be the correct spelling. Because so many languages use the letter "8". I don't care what language you speak natively, there's nothing preventing you from running your long-ass post through Spellcheck. Originally by: Yolan I would like to see you try to write a post in his native tongue. These are English-only forums so he can put a bit of effort into writing IN ENGLISH properly or get somebody else to post for him. Or get the hell out. My Spanish is pretty half-assed, so do I go posting Splanglish crap onto Spanish-only forums? Hell no. I see no evidence here that this guy speaks any non-English language other than AOLspeak. And if he was raised in an AOLspeaking household, then dear god the Earth is doomed. well we dont use 8 in norwegian words either, but we dont use - in any words. is HALF-ASSED a correct way to write nikolai??
Wanna Kill Caldari ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.25 12:16:00 - [90] Originally by: Trem Sinval Originally by: Bewl I actually called my Microwave a 'Microwarp' to my fiancee the other day. Set your burrito to 2km/sec on high! - Trem Wtf lmao ---------- Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected])[/orange] It is time, to unpimp ze modpowers! - Wanna Kill I'm home!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.09.25 12:27:00 - [91] Originally by: Aramendel If you have good drone skills and use the right drones those alone can break a single large rep tank. The gal recons have 40 m¦ drone space. Enough for 3 med, 2 light drones. With drone int 5, scout drone 4 and lvl 3 in the spec t2 exp drones do 101 base dps. Vs the base 10% resistance - which ratting BS will have everywhere but in angel realm - thats 91 effective dps. Against amarr ships with the 10% racial thats still 81 dps. One large rep can repair 71 dps with max skills. Now add the rails to it. And optionally some NPCs. Ratting BSs rat quite regulary per definition, so you quite often have some "help". Hmmm, you're probably right. I have to admit I'm more used to thinking about pvp resists... yes, against a 10% resist things could get ugly. Originally by: Aramendel And as a sidenote, if the target has a MWD a gal recon does not "die". It retreats. Considering it's target first has to get quite close to it and then has to spend 30+ seconds to lock it with damperners on it this should give ample time to warp out. Again, true. Let's say "it warps off or dies", then
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.25 12:34:00 - [92] Although admittably it will have problems against ravens. And there is the possibility of an EAN tank on armortankers, but for ratting setups those should not be too common.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.09.25 13:13:00 - [93] Recons are far from being overpowered. Ignoring everything but the Pilgrim for a minute, lets analyze it. Most of the people here, including the OP seemed to be most angered by the Pilgrim's abilities. Yes it is a good ship, no it is not overpowered. Pilgrim versus a non-turret BS? (ECM excluded, as thats another topic entirely) Pilgrim loses. Pilgrim versus a passive tanked or cap injecting ship? Pilgrim loses. So that makes the number of ships a Pilgrim can actually kill pretty small. As far as DPS goes, its utterly laughable. I actually DO fly a Pilgrim, unlike so many of the "all-knowing" posters in this thread and trust me, it takes a long ass time to kill anything. I have drone interfacing 5 and T2 drones and it still takes a while with 5x medium drones as your only source of damage. The tank? Ha, I can run a med rep forever but the resists aren't so hot compared to HACs which can do the same, so no overpoweredness there either. Related topic: Nos. Nos doesn't need nerfed. At all. Reasons: 1. Pretty high fitting req's 2. They have limited range. 3. more nos = less guns = less DPS 4. There are counters to it, many of them (Cap boosting, staying out of range, sensor dampening, ECM) ECM however does need a nerf. Ideally along the lines of when a ship's systems are ECM'd, their warp core has a protective disturbance around it making you invulnerable to scrambling. The problem with ECM today is that a crappy T1 frig witrh a single T1 jammer has a chance to jam a BS/carrier with ECCM fitted, thats not right. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Blitzkrieg The Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.25 13:19:00 - [94] Why do people whine about pilgrim and vagabond? Is it because they are the only ship in the CCP arsenal a player can use to solo pvp effectively? To be able to by pass the gate camps and others mind numbing uncreative contraptions of the blob gank squads that seem to be infesting all of 0.0 these days? Well good for us, the fews who are willing to take the road less travelled. And about the myth of invicibility of the recons: as an ER pilot you know very well how to down one or is there some kind of rule against using tactical overlay in ER? A recon jumping in a gate camp has less than 50% of making it alive. An mwd inty shld get on top of the target in less than 3 secs.
Soyemia Minmatar Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.25 13:20:00 - [95] Matari recons suck =( Proud member of fix. Hated on finnish channel. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
TuRtLe HeAd The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.09.25 13:21:00 - [96] Originally by: Blitzkrieg Why do people whine about pilgrim and vagabond? Is it because they are the only ship in the CCP arsenal a player can use to solo pvp effectively? To be able to by pass the gate camps and others mind numbing uncreative contraptions of the blob gank squads that seem to be infesting all of 0.0 these days? Well good for us, the fews who are willing to take the road less travelled. And about the myth of invicibility of the recons: as an ER pilot you know very well how to down one or is there some kind of rule against using tactical overlay in ER? A recon jumping in a gate camp has less than 50% of making it alive. An mwd inty shld get on top of the target in less than 3 secs. There is no Myth, They are not invicible, They die very easily. If you can't catch one, you are doing something wrong. Instantly Theres the chance of a 50million isk module dropping if you catch one.
Shadow Mancer The Splinter Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.25 13:38:00 - [97] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Edited by: Nikolai Nuvolari on 24/09/2006 07:03:37 I'd like to respond to the arguments of the post itself, but it's written with such utter disregard for the English language that I feel I would dirty myself to do so. Just having read it, I already feel like taking a shower. Read over your post, run it through spellcheck, and learn that NO WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARE SPELLED WITH THE NUMBER "8" IN THEM GODDAMNIT! Oh, and nerf Amarr recons. Whoa no wonder u have image of Chuck Norris in your sig. Let me ask u a question are u from Texas or some remote part of village where education and appreciation for the world outside doesn't exist? I'll tell this, go to your nearest shop and purchase the world map to see for yourself that there are more than a hundred cultures with different ethnic groups that use other languages too. Now if you think you are really smart, log on to Russian eve website and post something in Russian, or Brazilian EVE and you'll learn that being efficient at writing other languages is very difficult. It takes time to learn something and I can assure you that OP's English is very good because English is my second language too, not native. PS: If I see you in space i'll make sure I pod you because you are assho*e
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.25 14:37:00 - [98] Originally by: Blitzkrieg Why do people whine about pilgrim and vagabond? Is it because they are the only ship in the CCP arsenal a player can use to solo pvp effectively? To be able to by pass the gate camps and others mind numbing uncreative contraptions of the blob gank squads that seem to be infesting all of 0.0 these days? Well good for us, the fews who are willing to take the road less travelled. And about the myth of invicibility of the recons: as an ER pilot you know very well how to down one or is there some kind of rule against using tactical overlay in ER? A recon jumping in a gate camp has less than 50% of making it alive. An mwd inty shld get on top of the target in less than 3 secs. Hehe I think Luny is just a little p1ssy at the moment because he can't catch them when he's solo at a gate because they cloak faster than he locks. He's killed his fair share of them in gangs though and if we have a bubble camp or interdictor with us they hardly ever get away. BTW the tactical overlay rocks and if you have a mwd on your interdictor they are even better at decloaking them than ceptors with their massive sig!
Kalek Astroth Amarr The Electrocuted iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.25 14:52:00 - [99] lol nice reply please don't nerf amarr recons , as 'pure' amarr pilot, recons are the only good ships i can fly i agree , recons are not easy to kill and can pass trought most of the camps even when bubbles or interdictors are at the gate. But killing ships with a recon in solo is not an easy task cause of the poor dps output mixed with the lack of speed when cloaked and the fact that belts in 0.0 are full of roids .... killing with a pilgrim request lot of time a bit of luck .... and its not an i win button when you gank cruise raven , blaster mega , or a bs that rat fitting heavy nos... so pls dont nerf it
Shamis Orzoz SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.09.25 15:29:00 - [100] Recon Cruisers are fine. If you camp a gate with a dictor bubble and a recon gets away from you...then you suck...or at least your frig pilots suck.
Kai'Lee Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2006.09.25 19:51:00 - [101] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Originally by: Foulis You're officially in my sig now. \o/ That amuses me greatly. Originally by: Wizie Did you get beat up a lot in school? Nope. I got a reputation as a bit of a psycho. "Class bully" shoved me around a bit, so I turned around and broke his nose. Come to think of it...most of my friends still think I'm a bit of a psycho, albeit for different reasons... Originally by: Jao Ling Originally by: Xianthar there is a difference between missing the 's' key by mistake and using the completely wrong letters and _numbers_ to spell words. As said before, not all people have english as their primary language. Do I need to direct you to Foulis' signature? Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari True dat.
cytomatrix Caldari Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.25 21:10:00 - [102] Originally by: Soyemia Matari recons suck =( Dont worry caldari recons are gonna join the club soon. Hurray for the ECM nerf.
Nicocat Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.25 22:09:00 - [103] What would be a better way to kill a Pilgrim? Let your own drones (in my case, 3 med 2 light kinetic drones, T2, interfacing III) whack his drones, or just go bat**** and blast him back to hell as fast as possible? Assuming a passive tank and projectile turrets (go Cyclone!) ---------------------------- Remember, killing a Goon isn't murder. They don't have souls.
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.25 23:23:00 - [104] Cap injector + smartbomb = disarmed pilgrim. When you disarm him send your drones to finish him off.
Liet Traep Minmatar Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.26 02:43:00 - [105] Lunas speaks english fluently. His spelling isn't so good Better than my danish though! I love ya Lunny but I disagree. Only recons I'd consider pwnmobiles are the curse and pilgrim with their nos bonuses. Some might consider them overpowered but considering the sad state of amarr ships right now they're the amarr pilots only answer to the other races hacs. Vaga, Cerb and Ishtar far outclass the amarr hacs. The amarr recons are one of the few places they have an edge. As for the other recons they just don't do a lot of damage. They're useful in gangs but so are blackbirds and scorps. I've killed recon ships in battle and lost them to. I think they're very good but far from the problem you think they are mate.
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.26 05:11:00 - [106] Originally by: Jao Ling I can't find his 'cause your signature takes up half the screen. It's within the size limits, what are you complaining about? Foulis' sig probably takes up more space than mine. Originally by: Jao Ling And by the way; Funny when I look in your signature english apparently can have numbers... I didn't know "4tw" was enlgish either. Take that up with Mebrithiel Ju'wien, not me. Originally by: oodin well we dont use 8 in norwegian words either, but we dont use - in any words. is HALF-ASSED a correct way to write nikolai?? It's called a hyphen and yes, it's used in the English language. Originally by: Shadow Mancer Whoa no wonder u have image of Chuck Norris in your sig. Thank you. Originally by: Shadow Mancer Let me ask u a question are u from Texas or some remote part of village where education and appreciation for the world outside doesn't exist? No, sorry. I live in Miami Beach. Originally by: Shadow Mancer I'll tell this, go to your nearest shop and purchase the world map to see for yourself that there are more than a hundred cultures with different ethnic groups that use other languages too. Like Dutch, which spells words with "8"? Oh wait... Originally by: Shadow Mancer Now if you think you are really smart, log on to Russian eve website and post something in Russian, or Brazilian EVE and you'll learn that being efficient at writing other languages is very difficult. I can't write properly in Russian or Portuguese, so no, I don't post on the Russian or Brazilian forum. If the OP can't write properly in English, he should post on a forum that uses a language he can write properly. Originally by: Shadow Mancer It takes time to learn something and I can assure you that OP's English is very good because English is my second language too, not native. Hmm, English is your second language...that would make you less qualified to judge whether his English is "very good" or not. So really, I don't care about your assurances. Originally by: Shadow Mancer PS: If I see you in space i'll make sure I pod you because you are asshoe I am an ****. --------------------- Originally by:** Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108! byahahahahaha!11 Sig Pwnt - Immy

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