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 BSOD    |
Posted - 2003.06.02 17:48:00 -
[1] Originally posted on the public forums, being reposted here so it's not lost when those are closed (BTW forum admins: Thanks for the longer allowed topic length.) - Here it is: As many predicted, the changes in patch 1054 have completely screwed up the market. Megacyte has skyrocketed in value to the point where it's cheaper to buy many items that require megacyte from NPCs than to produce them for yourself. One example: Overdrive injectors. 20k from NPCs, 27k+ to produce with megacyte at its current prices. (25k in Sing Laison and unavailable in the few neighboring regions I checked.) I know of a few corps that have pulled all of their cruisers and most of their frigates off of the market due to the skyrocketing costs. Some say, "Produce other items" - Well, I'm not even producing overdrive injectors for sale and don't plan on it, but they're a necessary piece of ship equipment for in-corp use and it ****es me off that my BP is now valueless because it's cheaper to buy from NPCs. I understand CCP's reasoning behind this patch. Corps were making way too much money stripmining ark/bist. Unfortunately, their measures were not very well thought out. a) Major drastic changes are not a good idea when trying to balance things, because you will overcorrect. Proper balance will never be achieved because of the results bouncing back and forth between extremes. It doesn't work in the real world (In the 1970s, an overcorrection for a stock market crash by the Fed in the USA caused *further* damage to the economy, for example), and it doesn't work here. b) The changes targeted megacorps that were stripmining ark/bist. But the people it targeted are the ones that were hurt the least - Only those megacorps have the firepower to mine megacyte-containing minerals now, independents are screwed. I have four suggestions for a solution, some are harder/easier and less/more realistic than others. a) Easiest and most consistent: Keep ark/bist rare. But bring back spodumain. Spod is the lowest grade megacyte-producing ore, and is not nearly the cash-cow that bist/ark are. A player with Mining 4 and Refining 3 can make approximately 333k per hour per Miner 1 on spod, less than 1/3 that of the 1.11mill/hour per Miner 1 on ark, and less than 1/2 the 750k per hour per Miner 1 on bist. It's only around 75% faster than Kernite, which is readily available. Spod refines for a total of 81 megacyte per hour per laser, as opposed to 123 for bist and 242 for arkanor. b) Possibly better solution to avoid yet another "sledgehammer" hitting the economy. Place trace amounts of megacyte in a lower-grade ore. And I do mean TRACE. An example: Replace 64 units of pre-refine isogen with 1 unit of pre-refine megacyte in omber or kernite. This will result in the ore having the same value, but will allow it to produce megacyte. Since the 1 unit is pre-refine, it will only show for multiple simultaneous refines. The stats on megacyte production in these cases is as follows: Omber - 9.6 refines per hour per laser, for a total of 7.5 megacyte per hour per laser if a player doesn't have the Refining skill. This is 1/10 the rate of even spodumain. Kernite - 6 refines per hour per laser, for a total of only 4.5 megacyte per hour per laser for a player without refining skill. Additional bonus is that kernite is slightly harder to mine than Omber. This will provide a slight relief on the megacyte market, while still giving major incentives to hunt the rarer ores. (4.5 megacyte per hour per laser can't sustain cruiser production and can barely even sustain production of the better frigates.) Jaspet will only produce approx. 2 megacyte per hour per laser in this instance (2.88 refines/hour/laser), hemorph/hedbergite even less. (1.92 refines/hour/laser) c) Revise the production costs of certain items. If it's a "Basic" item (Basic Overdrive Injector, Basic Mining Drone), it shouldn't require an extremely rare mineral to produce. Low-level items should not require high-level resources to produce. d) Return production efficiency to working the way it was before. To plug the leak in the economy this presents, track the minerals used in the production of each player-made item so it can't be recycled for more than what was used later. This relieves pressure on the megacyte market by dropping demand slightly. (Eliminating it for low-level items while only denting it slightly at the high-end.) Of the four suggestions: a) would probably be seen as optimal by CCP, as it doesn't require any stat changes to any ores or items. b) is in my opinion the optimal solution, as it is not as open to a foulup and introduction of a bug as the other fixes, and probably requires less work than a). It also provides the most gentle adjustment to the supply/demand curve, allowing CCP to gradually balance the market in nudges rather than continuing to beat it with a sledgehammer. Edit: Boards are broken, can't copy remainder of post, it gets cut off. ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
 BSOD Gallente Calista Industries |
Posted - 2003.06.02 17:48:00 -
[2] Originally posted on the public forums, being reposted here so it's not lost when those are closed (BTW forum admins: Thanks for the longer allowed topic length.) - Here it is: As many predicted, the changes in patch 1054 have completely screwed up the market. Megacyte has skyrocketed in value to the point where it's cheaper to buy many items that require megacyte from NPCs than to produce them for yourself. One example: Overdrive injectors. 20k from NPCs, 27k+ to produce with megacyte at its current prices. (25k in Sing Laison and unavailable in the few neighboring regions I checked.) I know of a few corps that have pulled all of their cruisers and most of their frigates off of the market due to the skyrocketing costs. Some say, "Produce other items" - Well, I'm not even producing overdrive injectors for sale and don't plan on it, but they're a necessary piece of ship equipment for in-corp use and it ****es me off that my BP is now valueless because it's cheaper to buy from NPCs. I understand CCP's reasoning behind this patch. Corps were making way too much money stripmining ark/bist. Unfortunately, their measures were not very well thought out. a) Major drastic changes are not a good idea when trying to balance things, because you will overcorrect. Proper balance will never be achieved because of the results bouncing back and forth between extremes. It doesn't work in the real world (In the 1970s, an overcorrection for a stock market crash by the Fed in the USA caused *further* damage to the economy, for example), and it doesn't work here. b) The changes targeted megacorps that were stripmining ark/bist. But the people it targeted are the ones that were hurt the least - Only those megacorps have the firepower to mine megacyte-containing minerals now, independents are screwed. I have four suggestions for a solution, some are harder/easier and less/more realistic than others. a) Easiest and most consistent: Keep ark/bist rare. But bring back spodumain. Spod is the lowest grade megacyte-producing ore, and is not nearly the cash-cow that bist/ark are. A player with Mining 4 and Refining 3 can make approximately 333k per hour per Miner 1 on spod, less than 1/3 that of the 1.11mill/hour per Miner 1 on ark, and less than 1/2 the 750k per hour per Miner 1 on bist. It's only around 75% faster than Kernite, which is readily available. Spod refines for a total of 81 megacyte per hour per laser, as opposed to 123 for bist and 242 for arkanor. b) Possibly better solution to avoid yet another "sledgehammer" hitting the economy. Place trace amounts of megacyte in a lower-grade ore. And I do mean TRACE. An example: Replace 64 units of pre-refine isogen with 1 unit of pre-refine megacyte in omber or kernite. This will result in the ore having the same value, but will allow it to produce megacyte. Since the 1 unit is pre-refine, it will only show for multiple simultaneous refines. The stats on megacyte production in these cases is as follows: Omber - 9.6 refines per hour per laser, for a total of 7.5 megacyte per hour per laser if a player doesn't have the Refining skill. This is 1/10 the rate of even spodumain. Kernite - 6 refines per hour per laser, for a total of only 4.5 megacyte per hour per laser for a player without refining skill. Additional bonus is that kernite is slightly harder to mine than Omber. This will provide a slight relief on the megacyte market, while still giving major incentives to hunt the rarer ores. (4.5 megacyte per hour per laser can't sustain cruiser production and can barely even sustain production of the better frigates.) Jaspet will only produce approx. 2 megacyte per hour per laser in this instance (2.88 refines/hour/laser), hemorph/hedbergite even less. (1.92 refines/hour/laser) c) Revise the production costs of certain items. If it's a "Basic" item (Basic Overdrive Injector, Basic Mining Drone), it shouldn't require an extremely rare mineral to produce. Low-level items should not require high-level resources to produce. d) Return production efficiency to working the way it was before. To plug the leak in the economy this presents, track the minerals used in the production of each player-made item so it can't be recycled for more than what was used later. This relieves pressure on the megacyte market by dropping demand slightly. (Eliminating it for low-level items while only denting it slightly at the high-end.) Of the four suggestions: a) would probably be seen as optimal by CCP, as it doesn't require any stat changes to any ores or items. b) is in my opinion the optimal solution, as it is not as open to a foulup and introduction of a bug as the other fixes, and probably requires less work than a). It also provides the most gentle adjustment to the supply/demand curve, allowing CCP to gradually balance the market in nudges rather than continuing to beat it with a sledgehammer. Edit: Boards are broken, can't copy remainder of post, it gets cut off. ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
 Shauna |
Posted - 2003.06.02 20:44:00 -
[3]
This kind of reminds me of the way mining in Jumpgate worked, if memory serves. Most asteroids in that game had trace amounts of just about all minerals... but mining an ordinary asteroid would take forever to get any real amount of the good stuff. For that, you had to find asteroids that were high in whatever rare ore you needed... which generally meant you had to go someplace dangerous. I think trace amounts of high ores could be a good thing, if it's done right... it would definitely allow some of the smaller corps or freelance players with their one blueprint to get their 1 unit of megacyte from time to time so they can build something better than bullets ;-) |
 Shauna Gallente X-Factor Industries |
Posted - 2003.06.02 20:44:00 -
[4]
This kind of reminds me of the way mining in Jumpgate worked, if memory serves. Most asteroids in that game had trace amounts of just about all minerals... but mining an ordinary asteroid would take forever to get any real amount of the good stuff. For that, you had to find asteroids that were high in whatever rare ore you needed... which generally meant you had to go someplace dangerous. I think trace amounts of high ores could be a good thing, if it's done right... it would definitely allow some of the smaller corps or freelance players with their one blueprint to get their 1 unit of megacyte from time to time so they can build something better than bullets ;-) |
 Morpheus Siranus |
Posted - 2003.06.02 22:04:00 -
[5] I tend to agree that something should be done to bring better balance to EVE's natural resources but, above all, I believe a decision on this should be made ASAP regardless of what it may be. EVE's markets and corps were badly shaken by the recent major shakeup in the makeup of the galaxy and it's resources. If the economy is going to have any chance to even out again and start churning, these kinds of decisions and changes have to made at the forfront and then not altered again. As for my own company, we had to ditch the surveys of several systems that we had done to that point and abandon several of our mining operations that had many of our operators and personnel at considerable risk. This kind od shakeup tends to ripple thru an economy like a shockwave and effects every aspect of it. To make a long story short, let's figure out a balance for EVE, implement it quickly, and then let it be. I, and I'm sure most of us, understand the dynamic nature of the universe and have already incorporated that into our SOP's. The main issue appears to be the balance, however, and should be treated as a priority. Edited by: Morpheus Siranus on 02/06/2003 22:04:35 --------------------------------------------- "People can always be counted on to assert, with vigor, their God given right to be stupid!" - Dean Koontz |
 Morpheus Siranus Minmatar Lost Profits |
Posted - 2003.06.02 22:04:00 -
[6] I tend to agree that something should be done to bring better balance to EVE's natural resources but, above all, I believe a decision on this should be made ASAP regardless of what it may be. EVE's markets and corps were badly shaken by the recent major shakeup in the makeup of the galaxy and it's resources. If the economy is going to have any chance to even out again and start churning, these kinds of decisions and changes have to made at the forfront and then not altered again. As for my own company, we had to ditch the surveys of several systems that we had done to that point and abandon several of our mining operations that had many of our operators and personnel at considerable risk. This kind od shakeup tends to ripple thru an economy like a shockwave and effects every aspect of it. To make a long story short, let's figure out a balance for EVE, implement it quickly, and then let it be. I, and I'm sure most of us, understand the dynamic nature of the universe and have already incorporated that into our SOP's. The main issue appears to be the balance, however, and should be treated as a priority. Edited by: Morpheus Siranus on 02/06/2003 22:04:35 --------------------------------------------- "People can always be counted on to assert, with vigor, their God given right to be stupid!" - Dean Koontz |
 Aerin Osaa |
Posted - 2003.06.03 00:22:00 -
[7] okay, how about this for a solution: stop respawning the rare ores. well, not totaly, bring back maybe 100 units of rare ore per field per day That way, once its been mined, its gone for good. Strip mining corps will have to move on, but smaller corps can the move in and pick up the small fraction that comes back. I also like the idea about putting megacyte into omber/kernite. That would probably have a similar effect to my above sugestion. |
 Aerin Osaa Caldari EQUALIBRIUM COALITION |
Posted - 2003.06.03 00:22:00 -
[8] okay, how about this for a solution: stop respawning the rare ores. well, not totaly, bring back maybe 100 units of rare ore per field per day That way, once its been mined, its gone for good. Strip mining corps will have to move on, but smaller corps can the move in and pick up the small fraction that comes back. I also like the idea about putting megacyte into omber/kernite. That would probably have a similar effect to my above sugestion. |
 Sarf |
Posted - 2003.06.03 01:50:00 -
[9] I would vote for B with one cavior, don't take the isogen out of it. Maybe implment fractional amounts of mineral. and cut the isogen down a bit I would think 32 isogen and 0.25 megacyte and 0.25 zaldin(sp?) |
 Sarf |
Posted - 2003.06.03 01:50:00 -
[10] I would vote for B with one cavior, don't take the isogen out of it. Maybe implment fractional amounts of mineral. and cut the isogen down a bit I would think 32 isogen and 0.25 megacyte and 0.25 zaldin(sp?) Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
 Naran Darkmood |
Posted - 2003.06.03 08:18:00 -
[11] As above mentioned, Zydine should be a trace amount as well (maybe trace Omber with .25-1 unit Zydine, pre-refined and Kernite with Megacyte accordingly). Another solution would be to introduce 2 new kinds of ore which have those tracer. Those could yield isogen and Noxicum and slight amount of Zydine and/or Megacyte the way Pyroxeres Čields some Noxicum. As there had to be new graphics implemented, editing existing ores would be easier. A change like that would take ease of the Noxicum market as well, as currently everybody is mining Pyroxeres to get max. profit, but has no way of getting rid of their Noxicum, cause the market is flodded and single stations do not buy larger amounts (only about 200 Nox/(station*day) compared to 10k-20k isogen). Edited by: Naran Darkmood on 03/06/2003 08:19:01 Edited by: Naran Darkmood on 03/06/2003 08:20:51 ----------------------------------------------- The following bonuses may be awarded to you: 27 units of Basic Expanded Cargohold at if you complete the mission |
 Naran Darkmood Gallente |
Posted - 2003.06.03 08:18:00 -
[12] As above mentioned, Zydine should be a trace amount as well (maybe trace Omber with .25-1 unit Zydine, pre-refined and Kernite with Megacyte accordingly). Another solution would be to introduce 2 new kinds of ore which have those tracer. Those could yield isogen and Noxicum and slight amount of Zydine and/or Megacyte the way Pyroxeres Čields some Noxicum. As there had to be new graphics implemented, editing existing ores would be easier. A change like that would take ease of the Noxicum market as well, as currently everybody is mining Pyroxeres to get max. profit, but has no way of getting rid of their Noxicum, cause the market is flodded and single stations do not buy larger amounts (only about 200 Nox/(station*day) compared to 10k-20k isogen). Edited by: Naran Darkmood on 03/06/2003 08:19:01 Edited by: Naran Darkmood on 03/06/2003 08:20:51
|
 Bambi |
Posted - 2003.06.03 09:21:00 -
[13] Omber has recently become as common as my mrs (j/k hun..) I realy like the idea of trace minerals, maybe dont give megacyte or zydrine in omber but in Kernite or Jaspet maybe give out 1 unit of zydrine per refine and 1 unit of megacyte in the next two 'rarest' ores. This way you would give the smaller coprs and freelancers a chance to procude thier own goods and make a proffit. I mean 25,000ISK for 1 lump of Megacyte is just plain daft, so glad I bought up 200 just b4 the changes. [Cant belive I am in agreement with a Minmatar] Edited by: Bambi on 03/06/2003 09:22:37 If God made us to be just like him, then God is dumb and maybe a little ugly on the side...[F.Z] |
 Bambi |
Posted - 2003.06.03 09:21:00 -
[14] Omber has recently become as common as my mrs (j/k hun..) I realy like the idea of trace minerals, maybe dont give megacyte or zydrine in omber but in Kernite or Jaspet maybe give out 1 unit of zydrine per refine and 1 unit of megacyte in the next two 'rarest' ores. This way you would give the smaller coprs and freelancers a chance to procude thier own goods and make a proffit. I mean 25,000ISK for 1 lump of Megacyte is just plain daft, so glad I bought up 200 just b4 the changes. [Cant belive I am in agreement with a Minmatar] Edited by: Bambi on 03/06/2003 09:22:37 |
 drunkenmaster |
Posted - 2003.06.03 10:06:00 -
[15] I'm livin' filthy in Sinq at the moment, and I haven't seen Mega going for those prices. Maybe someone bought the expensive stuff immediately, I dunno, but when I looked, it was selling at 12k (still a lot) I like the idea of having trace amounts of the rare goods in jasp/kern, but I think the mubers are aa little high. maybe 1 mega per 10 refines. If you make it too high, it will just begin the empire-space stripmining again. Although, perhaps it will anyway. |
 drunkenmaster Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.06.03 10:06:00 -
[16] I'm livin' filthy in Sinq at the moment, and I haven't seen Mega going for those prices. Maybe someone bought the expensive stuff immediately, I dunno, but when I looked, it was selling at 12k (still a lot) I like the idea of having trace amounts of the rare goods in jasp/kern, but I think the mubers are aa little high. maybe 1 mega per 10 refines. If you make it too high, it will just begin the empire-space stripmining again. Although, perhaps it will anyway. |
Morkt Drakt |
Posted - 2003.06.03 11:58:00 -
[17] i dont think there is a megacyte or zydrine shortage at all, indeed it is as plentiful if not more abundant than previously. On top of that, the sky-high prices of last week are already tumbling down - lonetrek price for megacyte is around 6k zydrine is running around 1600 isk. I dont see a need to overeact to things when its obvious that market forces are easing the pressures. The simple fact that "any old corp" could produce ships and all equipment so easily and so widely was an indication of something wrong form the "plan". Thus having some struggling to fulfill orders and manufacture items at rock-bottom prices in a pricewar with no regard to mineral supply was always going to need addressing. In other words - there is nothing to "fix"... you're just spoiled by a previous situation that was never intended (the free and easy manufacturing of everything at sub-npc costs). |
 Morkt Drakt Caldari Black Omega Security |
Posted - 2003.06.03 11:58:00 -
[18] i dont think there is a megacyte or zydrine shortage at all, indeed it is as plentiful if not more abundant than previously. On top of that, the sky-high prices of last week are already tumbling down - lonetrek price for megacyte is around 6k zydrine is running around 1600 isk. I dont see a need to overeact to things when its obvious that market forces are easing the pressures. The simple fact that "any old corp" could produce ships and all equipment so easily and so widely was an indication of something wrong form the "plan". Thus having some struggling to fulfill orders and manufacture items at rock-bottom prices in a pricewar with no regard to mineral supply was always going to need addressing. In other words - there is nothing to "fix"... you're just spoiled by a previous situation that was never intended (the free and easy manufacturing of everything at sub-npc costs). |
BSOD |
Posted - 2003.06.03 15:48:00 -
[19] ARGH. Where's the @!*!)@# quote feature??? I think 1 mega per Kernite refine is most likely optimal. That produces around 4 per hour per laser, which is a tiny fraction of the amount that even spod provides at around 80 per hour per laser. I don't see a reason not to remove 64 isogen from Kernite - That's an insignificant difference compared to the amount of isogen kernite refines for. I disagree that a decision needs to be made ASAP, although it would be nice to get some quick relief to these insane prices. That said, "quick" should not be "rash and not thought out". If a change is made, it should be *small*, just a little tweak. If it's not enough, they can tweak it more. But radical changes like the last patch are just not a good idea in any way. The economy will never stabilize if CCP keeps on bashing it around with a sledgehammer. I know CCP wants us to branch out, but most people are not ready to branch out, for the following reasons: No mobile refining modules or player-run stations No InterBus - If you pilot more than one ship, you're screwed, there's no way to move that doesn't involve exposing a lone pod for 20+ jumps. Only the most powerful have cruisers capable of moving out to fields that have any megacyte. ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
BSOD Gallente Calista Industries |
Posted - 2003.06.03 15:48:00 -
[20] ARGH. Where's the @!*!)@# quote feature??? I think 1 mega per Kernite refine is most likely optimal. That produces around 4 per hour per laser, which is a tiny fraction of the amount that even spod provides at around 80 per hour per laser. I don't see a reason not to remove 64 isogen from Kernite - That's an insignificant difference compared to the amount of isogen kernite refines for. I disagree that a decision needs to be made ASAP, although it would be nice to get some quick relief to these insane prices. That said, "quick" should not be "rash and not thought out". If a change is made, it should be *small*, just a little tweak. If it's not enough, they can tweak it more. But radical changes like the last patch are just not a good idea in any way. The economy will never stabilize if CCP keeps on bashing it around with a sledgehammer. I know CCP wants us to branch out, but most people are not ready to branch out, for the following reasons: No mobile refining modules or player-run stations No InterBus - If you pilot more than one ship, you're screwed, there's no way to move that doesn't involve exposing a lone pod for 20+ jumps. Only the most powerful have cruisers capable of moving out to fields that have any megacyte. ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
 DrStrangelove |
Posted - 2003.06.03 16:55:00 -
[21] Morkt Drak is correct. We may all be spoiled by a market that was easy to take advantage of. When CCP made the changes that they did the market had a massive flux in some of the prices. This is exactly what happens in real life. If Allen Greenspan makes a speech, or some important world event happens the market in the U.S. usually has a dramatic day, but the next day/week the market starts to settles down. Before we jump to any conclusions about the current changes to EVE let us just realize that the market is still “settling.” Items like cruisers and such are supposed to be expensive and hard to come by. The reason why the prices came down is because many corporations figured out how to mass produce. Mass production is the only way to bring the retail price of cruisers down. Now corporations have to start moving to the outer systems and mine more dangerous locations just to produce cruisers at a slower pace, this will increase the value of the cruisers greatly. No one should be able to buy a Moa for 9 million. If some people complain that this makes it hard on the “freelance” player who doesn’t want to be in Corp then too bad it is supposed to be like that. That’s just real life. m0o corp |
 DrStrangelove Brutor tribe |
Posted - 2003.06.03 16:55:00 -
[22] Morkt Drak is correct. We may all be spoiled by a market that was easy to take advantage of. When CCP made the changes that they did the market had a massive flux in some of the prices. This is exactly what happens in real life. If Allen Greenspan makes a speech, or some important world event happens the market in the U.S. usually has a dramatic day, but the next day/week the market starts to settles down. Before we jump to any conclusions about the current changes to EVE let us just realize that the market is still “settling.” Items like cruisers and such are supposed to be expensive and hard to come by. The reason why the prices came down is because many corporations figured out how to mass produce. Mass production is the only way to bring the retail price of cruisers down. Now corporations have to start moving to the outer systems and mine more dangerous locations just to produce cruisers at a slower pace, this will increase the value of the cruisers greatly. No one should be able to buy a Moa for 9 million. If some people complain that this makes it hard on the “freelance” player who doesn’t want to be in Corp then too bad it is supposed to be like that. That’s just real life. m0o corp |
 BSOD |
Posted - 2003.06.03 18:43:00 -
[23] The problem now is that some corps have cruisers and now have the means to build more cruisers. Meanwhile, those that didn't have cruisers before the patch are utterly screwed. I agree that freelancers refusing to join a corp shouldn't knock it 'till they've tried it, but the fact is that even if they join a corp, most likely aforementioned corp won't have the firepower to mine in a belt guarded by 6 pirate cruisers either. The big corps can continue stripmining, while the smaller ones fall farther behind. I'm not asking for a free ride or easy cash, I'm just asking that smaller corporations be given a fighting chance. The big corps can have all the free cash they want at 80+ megacyte/laser/hour while the little guys are stuck mining at a rate of 4-7 megacyte/laser/hour with proposal b) ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
BSOD Gallente Calista Industries |
Posted - 2003.06.03 18:43:00 -
[24] The problem now is that some corps have cruisers and now have the means to build more cruisers. Meanwhile, those that didn't have cruisers before the patch are utterly screwed. I agree that freelancers refusing to join a corp shouldn't knock it 'till they've tried it, but the fact is that even if they join a corp, most likely aforementioned corp won't have the firepower to mine in a belt guarded by 6 pirate cruisers either. The big corps can continue stripmining, while the smaller ones fall farther behind. I'm not asking for a free ride or easy cash, I'm just asking that smaller corporations be given a fighting chance. The big corps can have all the free cash they want at 80+ megacyte/laser/hour while the little guys are stuck mining at a rate of 4-7 megacyte/laser/hour with proposal b) ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
Ralimenua |
Posted - 2003.06.03 19:23:00 -
[25] Trace amounts of Megacyte and Zydrine in Omber or Jaspet would be an excellent addition, allowing committed smaller Corporations the ability to continue manufacturing such elementary items as Mining Drones, but not overwhelmingly flooding the market. As a director of a small corporation of only 4 players, none of whom were beta players, I spent significant amounts of time mining, manufacturing and trading to the point where I have Frigate BPs for all races, and some other nice-little-earner BPs and I'm unreasonably proud of the fact. What's now really disappointing is that I stand absolutely no chance of producing most of my nice earners, let alone any of the ships unless I get insanely lucky buying Megacyte somehow, or take a big hit on the open market. I have no chance of being able to mine Arkanor or Bistot at the moment. I can usually collect enough pirate loot to refine into a modest supply of Zydrine, but so far I've failed to do the same for Megacyte, alas. It's all part of the cost of doing business, of course, but the current ore distribution gives larger Corporations a disproportionate advantage, IMO to the detriment of the EVE environment. |
 Ralimenua Hazara Khan's Haphazard Bazaar |
Posted - 2003.06.03 19:23:00 -
[26] Trace amounts of Megacyte and Zydrine in Omber or Jaspet would be an excellent addition, allowing committed smaller Corporations the ability to continue manufacturing such elementary items as Mining Drones, but not overwhelmingly flooding the market. As a director of a small corporation of only 4 players, none of whom were beta players, I spent significant amounts of time mining, manufacturing and trading to the point where I have Frigate BPs for all races, and some other nice-little-earner BPs and I'm unreasonably proud of the fact. What's now really disappointing is that I stand absolutely no chance of producing most of my nice earners, let alone any of the ships unless I get insanely lucky buying Megacyte somehow, or take a big hit on the open market. I have no chance of being able to mine Arkanor or Bistot at the moment. I can usually collect enough pirate loot to refine into a modest supply of Zydrine, but so far I've failed to do the same for Megacyte, alas. It's all part of the cost of doing business, of course, but the current ore distribution gives larger Corporations a disproportionate advantage, IMO to the detriment of the EVE environment. |
 Bentguru |
Posted - 2003.06.04 02:04:00 -
[27] but the thing 2 remember is that low lvl ores, such as pyrox, can be mined in incredibly large quantities. A mining group with indy backup can bring in a ****load of low lvl ore very fast. |
 Bentguru Amarr Viziam |
Posted - 2003.06.04 02:04:00 -
[28] but the thing 2 remember is that low lvl ores, such as pyrox, can be mined in incredibly large quantities. A mining group with indy backup can bring in a ****load of low lvl ore very fast. -- New Petition Inc Vid This signature is protected by the pattented NoDev 2000 technology. THERE WILL BE NO COLORS But colors are fun!!-Kaemonn Look! Christmas colors!-ReverendM |
 DrStrangelove |
Posted - 2003.06.04 08:34:00 -
[29] Small corporations are at a disadvantage because that is the way they are supposed to be. Large wealthy Corps can be more proficient at producing items and mining ore. This is a fact that we are all going to have to get used to. I know it must be frustrating that a small but very efficient organization is stuck in a bad situation because of the change in the market but in real life large corporations have the advantage. They can adapt and change their strategy to fit the new economy because they can afford to. That is why you don’t have 4 member corporations you have at least 20 plus members. Corporations with hundreds of members hardly feel the change in the market. All they do is move a few divisions around and then back to business. I know this sounds harsh but a 4 member Corp cannot compete with a 300 member Corp because it just is not supposed to happen. Furthermore small organizations are supposed to grow slower than large Corps, but the growth curve eventually starts to increase in slope the larger you get. Megacyte and Zydrine are expensive right now because the really good ore is now a few more jumps away. Once the large or highly flexible Corporations adjust to these new locations the market will settle down again. I know this because my corporation has already found a new location and is in the process of adjusting. All these complaints about Ark and Bist becoming less accessible to the small Corps or individuals is absurd because it is supposed to be that way. It is hard to get the good stuff otherwise it wouldn’t be the “good stuff.” m0o corp |
DrStrangelove Brutor tribe |
Posted - 2003.06.04 08:34:00 -
[30] Small corporations are at a disadvantage because that is the way they are supposed to be. Large wealthy Corps can be more proficient at producing items and mining ore. This is a fact that we are all going to have to get used to. I know it must be frustrating that a small but very efficient organization is stuck in a bad situation because of the change in the market but in real life large corporations have the advantage. They can adapt and change their strategy to fit the new economy because they can afford to. That is why you don’t have 4 member corporations you have at least 20 plus members. Corporations with hundreds of members hardly feel the change in the market. All they do is move a few divisions around and then back to business. I know this sounds harsh but a 4 member Corp cannot compete with a 300 member Corp because it just is not supposed to happen. Furthermore small organizations are supposed to grow slower than large Corps, but the growth curve eventually starts to increase in slope the larger you get. Megacyte and Zydrine are expensive right now because the really good ore is now a few more jumps away. Once the large or highly flexible Corporations adjust to these new locations the market will settle down again. I know this because my corporation has already found a new location and is in the process of adjusting. All these complaints about Ark and Bist becoming less accessible to the small Corps or individuals is absurd because it is supposed to be that way. It is hard to get the good stuff otherwise it wouldn’t be the “good stuff.” m0o corp |
 BSOD |
Posted - 2003.06.04 14:44:00 -
[31] DrS: I understand that small corps should be at a disadvantage, but they should not be at such a severe disadvantage. Option b) implemented on kernite only provides for 4-5 megacyte per laser per hour, as opposed to the 80 minumum that large corps can obtain from spodumain. (Bist is 123, Ark is 242) That's disadvantage enough for the small fry. A large corp can mine 16 times as much per hour per laser, and due to having more people and more cruisers, they will have more lasers available. Bentguru: You have to think about it in terms of m3 of ore, and the amount of megacyte obtained per m3. And did I EVER suggest pyroxeres as a candidate for this treatment? No, for a reason. Pyrox gives around 28 refines per hour per laser, so placing 1 megacyte per refine (pre-wastage) of pyrox would indeed be a bad thing, as it would provide 1/4 the megacyte per hour per laser of spodumain, not 1/16. Omber gives 9.6 refines per hour per Miner1, Kernite 6, giving approx. 7.5 and 4.5 units per hour per laser post-refine at the base refining rate of 75%. (This is with Mining level 4). I mentioned in my original post on the other boards that anyone who wants a copy of my orecalc that was used to come up with these figures is welcome to it. It's a Perl CGI licensed under the GPL, and can be used from ingame. I would make it public, but I don't have the hosting to handle it. Since this board has no PM function, send a message to BSOD ingame if you want to arrange for a copy to be sent to you. (Note, don't expect him to be online, he's my manufacturing alt so doesn't get much playtime.) ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
BSOD Gallente Calista Industries |
Posted - 2003.06.04 14:44:00 -
[32] DrS: I understand that small corps should be at a disadvantage, but they should not be at such a severe disadvantage. Option b) implemented on kernite only provides for 4-5 megacyte per laser per hour, as opposed to the 80 minumum that large corps can obtain from spodumain. (Bist is 123, Ark is 242) That's disadvantage enough for the small fry. A large corp can mine 16 times as much per hour per laser, and due to having more people and more cruisers, they will have more lasers available. Bentguru: You have to think about it in terms of m3 of ore, and the amount of megacyte obtained per m3. And did I EVER suggest pyroxeres as a candidate for this treatment? No, for a reason. Pyrox gives around 28 refines per hour per laser, so placing 1 megacyte per refine (pre-wastage) of pyrox would indeed be a bad thing, as it would provide 1/4 the megacyte per hour per laser of spodumain, not 1/16. Omber gives 9.6 refines per hour per Miner1, Kernite 6, giving approx. 7.5 and 4.5 units per hour per laser post-refine at the base refining rate of 75%. (This is with Mining level 4). I mentioned in my original post on the other boards that anyone who wants a copy of my orecalc that was used to come up with these figures is welcome to it. It's a Perl CGI licensed under the GPL, and can be used from ingame. I would make it public, but I don't have the hosting to handle it. Since this board has no PM function, send a message to BSOD ingame if you want to arrange for a copy to be sent to you. (Note, don't expect him to be online, he's my manufacturing alt so doesn't get much playtime.) ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
Ralimenua |
Posted - 2003.06.04 15:04:00 -
[33] DrStrangelove - Large corporations naturally have considerable advantages. But, as I said, I think the current paucity of Megacyte is disproportionately advantageous to larger Corporations than smaller. The current distribution introduces what looks like (from beneath it) a very high ceiling before a small corporation can obtain Megacyte in sufficient quantities to really grow. This stultifies the growth of small Corporations, and allows only large corporations to thrive and get larger. A year from now do you want to see an EVE with 3 or 4 deadlocked behemoths and dozens of short-lived minnows struggling for survival? With large corporations holding an effective cartel on Megacyte, there's no reason for them to sell it on the open market - they will always do better to use it to extend their cartel to every product that requires Megacyte to manufacture, since they will naturally increase the worth of the raw material. It should be a natural goal of EVE that new players can go it alone, found their own small corporation, and - if not thrive - at least progress. My concern with the current state of affairs is that it leads to stagnation, disinterest and demise for a small corporation. I hope I'm proved wrong. When I find myself seriously regretting not using the make-your-own Megacyte exploit - which I was happy to report - then something is wrong. Grand Vizier and General Factotum Hazara Khan's Haphazard Bazaar The Finest Camels in all EVE! O0o=------------------+------------------=o0O |
Ralimenua Hazara Khan's Haphazard Bazaar |
Posted - 2003.06.04 15:04:00 -
[34] DrStrangelove - Large corporations naturally have considerable advantages. But, as I said, I think the current paucity of Megacyte is disproportionately advantageous to larger Corporations than smaller. The current distribution introduces what looks like (from beneath it) a very high ceiling before a small corporation can obtain Megacyte in sufficient quantities to really grow. This stultifies the growth of small Corporations, and allows only large corporations to thrive and get larger. A year from now do you want to see an EVE with 3 or 4 deadlocked behemoths and dozens of short-lived minnows struggling for survival? With large corporations holding an effective cartel on Megacyte, there's no reason for them to sell it on the open market - they will always do better to use it to extend their cartel to every product that requires Megacyte to manufacture, since they will naturally increase the worth of the raw material. It should be a natural goal of EVE that new players can go it alone, found their own small corporation, and - if not thrive - at least progress. My concern with the current state of affairs is that it leads to stagnation, disinterest and demise for a small corporation. I hope I'm proved wrong. When I find myself seriously regretting not using the make-your-own Megacyte exploit - which I was happy to report - then something is wrong. Grand Vizier and General Factotum Hazara Khan's Haphazard Bazaar The Finest Camels in all EVE! O0o=------------------+------------------=o0O |
DrStrangelove |
Posted - 2003.06.04 17:21:00 -
[35] Ralimenua, I understand your concern but let me reassure you that the growth of a new Corp is an exponential curve. Meaning that at first it SEEMS like you’ll never get that cruiser BP and that you are years away from Battleships. But Eventually the growth starts to increase dramatically. I know some people want to be able to thrive on their own or in small member count Corps. And this is entirely possible you just need to know how to survive. With a basic Probe I was able to make about 2.9 million isk in an hour and a half of extremely high risk mining, And this is still possible. You just need the balls to take some big risks. The fact of the matter is large groups work better than small groups and that is what CCP is trying to push. You can still survive but you will never be more powerful alone then with a large Corp it’s just not realistic. m0o corp |
DrStrangelove Brutor tribe |
Posted - 2003.06.04 17:21:00 -
[36] Ralimenua, I understand your concern but let me reassure you that the growth of a new Corp is an exponential curve. Meaning that at first it SEEMS like you’ll never get that cruiser BP and that you are years away from Battleships. But Eventually the growth starts to increase dramatically. I know some people want to be able to thrive on their own or in small member count Corps. And this is entirely possible you just need to know how to survive. With a basic Probe I was able to make about 2.9 million isk in an hour and a half of extremely high risk mining, And this is still possible. You just need the balls to take some big risks. The fact of the matter is large groups work better than small groups and that is what CCP is trying to push. You can still survive but you will never be more powerful alone then with a large Corp it’s just not realistic. m0o corp |
 BSOD |
Posted - 2003.06.04 19:53:00 -
[37] I think the key is that there is an economic "brick wall" in the current situation. The proposals I've made give small corps a chance to obtain SMALL amounts of megacyte (In the case of option b), at the exact same cashrate.), which removes the extreme disproportionality of the current scheme, while still giving PLENTY of large-corp advantages/incentive to take some risks. (Read, double to quintuple the cash intake, and a minimum 16x improvement in megacyte flow.) A small corp mining "modified kernite" will not be able to produce anywhere near the megacyte amounts or cash that a large corp mining spod/bist/ark can, but at least they can obtain some megacyte without the large corps dictating everything. Edited by: BSOD on 04/06/2003 19:54:35 ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
BSOD Gallente Calista Industries |
Posted - 2003.06.04 19:53:00 -
[38] I think the key is that there is an economic "brick wall" in the current situation. The proposals I've made give small corps a chance to obtain SMALL amounts of megacyte (In the case of option b), at the exact same cashrate.), which removes the extreme disproportionality of the current scheme, while still giving PLENTY of large-corp advantages/incentive to take some risks. (Read, double to quintuple the cash intake, and a minimum 16x improvement in megacyte flow.) A small corp mining "modified kernite" will not be able to produce anywhere near the megacyte amounts or cash that a large corp mining spod/bist/ark can, but at least they can obtain some megacyte without the large corps dictating everything. Edited by: BSOD on 04/06/2003 19:54:35 ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
rEDisan |
Posted - 2003.06.04 21:25:00 -
[39] In theory, with current prices of megacyte reaching above 12k per unit, it might be the case that people can recycle npc items and sell the megacyte they contain (along with the other minerals) and actually make a profit doing so... I totally agree that some form of blancing needs to be done to stabalise the economy. |
 rEDisan |
Posted - 2003.06.04 21:25:00 -
[40] In theory, with current prices of megacyte reaching above 12k per unit, it might be the case that people can recycle npc items and sell the megacyte they contain (along with the other minerals) and actually make a profit doing so... I totally agree that some form of blancing needs to be done to stabalise the economy. |
 drunkenmaster |
Posted - 2003.06.05 10:06:00 -
[41] Heh, rED, that's what I've been doing since the hammer dropped. It wasn't until afer the changes that I knew you could even get Me/Zy out of npc loot. :) |
drunkenmaster Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.06.05 10:06:00 -
[42] Heh, rED, that's what I've been doing since the hammer dropped. It wasn't until afer the changes that I knew you could even get Me/Zy out of npc loot. :) |
rEDisan |
Posted - 2003.06.05 13:59:00 -
[43] Sssssh, they may all find out :/ |
rEDisan |
Posted - 2003.06.05 13:59:00 -
[44] Sssssh, they may all find out :/ |
drunkenmaster |
Posted - 2003.06.05 14:49:00 -
[45] /me pretends he didn't say anything. |
drunkenmaster Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.06.05 14:49:00 -
[46] /me pretends he didn't say anything. |
Gopher |
Posted - 2003.06.05 19:10:00 -
[47] What loot refines to Megacyte ? I have not seen any myself. Just Zydrine. |
 Gopher |
Posted - 2003.06.05 19:10:00 -
[48] What loot refines to Megacyte ? I have not seen any myself. Just Zydrine. |
BSOD |
Posted - 2003.06.05 21:03:00 -
[49] Same for me. Pirates never seem to drop OD injectors or anything else that refines for mega. Stuff that refines for zydrine drops like candy though. ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
BSOD Gallente Calista Industries |
Posted - 2003.06.05 21:03:00 -
[50] Same for me. Pirates never seem to drop OD injectors or anything else that refines for mega. Stuff that refines for zydrine drops like candy though. ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
Hexadeimos |
Posted - 2003.06.06 06:10:00 -
[51] Shhhhhhhhhhh |
 Hexadeimos |
Posted - 2003.06.06 06:10:00 -
[52] Shhhhhhhhhhh |
rEDisan |
Posted - 2003.06.06 18:43:00 -
[53] there are some loot items that refine for mega, but cleverly there in areas where you can already get mega from the Ark :) Look out for the pirates in cruisers... and also pray to God that you have weapons that do 300 damage and can fire at over 20km :) |
rEDisan |
Posted - 2003.06.06 18:43:00 -
[54] there are some loot items that refine for mega, but cleverly there in areas where you can already get mega from the Ark :) Look out for the pirates in cruisers... and also pray to God that you have weapons that do 300 damage and can fire at over 20km :) |
Nootami |
Posted - 2003.06.08 01:32:00 -
[55] I have a few cargo containers that spawn L crystals randomly, refining into about 20 mega each.
|
 Nootami Amarr Viziam |
Posted - 2003.06.08 01:32:00 -
[56] I have a few cargo containers that spawn L crystals randomly, refining into about 20 mega each.
|
BSOD |
Posted - 2003.06.09 15:39:00 -
[57] Yet another case of the "brick wall" facing those who don't have the firepower to deal with pirate cruisers. FYI (hope my corp's hosting provider doesn't get ****ed that I'm doing this), you can now access my ore calc at http://militech.nord.is/orecalc/ - Includes my proposed "enhanced kernite" ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
BSOD Gallente Calista Industries |
Posted - 2003.06.09 15:39:00 -
[58] Yet another case of the "brick wall" facing those who don't have the firepower to deal with pirate cruisers. FYI (hope my corp's hosting provider doesn't get ****ed that I'm doing this), you can now access my ore calc at http://militech.nord.is/orecalc/ - Includes my proposed "enhanced kernite" ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
 Tigress Lee |
Posted - 2007.04.08 02:44:00 -
[59] good ideas here |
 Hoshi Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance |
Posted - 2007.04.08 12:19:00 -
[60] Holy necro, this thread is almost 3 years old you know. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
 lordharold Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department  |
Posted - 2007.04.08 17:36:00 -
[61] *click* Necro'ing old threads is very bad. -Lord Harold |
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