Well, i do believe they will regret that.

Because the Cat fleet has nothing to lose. They can gank just for tears, where the Tornados have to gank to cover their costs.

And no Tippia, 5mil for a Cat is not "cost" its pennies.

No... named T1 fit is 423 dps with CN anti... unheated.

Yes you are right, 20% was an exaggeration, but you still aren't getting 4x the damage from the fit that is 4x more expensive. 423 dps from a 2mil ship...

That's all well and good, but how does that help the freighter pilot without any weapons? I've never understood why a freighter lacks the simplest of weapons unlike any of the other ships in the game. Of course even with guns it's questionable what one does in the case of hyper dunking. It's not like you can lock and shoot a Catalysts they just boarded before they shoot you. You can't shoot them before they get on board. You can't pod them. It's just bad game play.

You best case is to have an alt with a warp scram to scram their ship/pod (or does that concord you). Or an alt with a smart bombs to pod them or their ships. Still sounds like horrible game play.

True, but the consequence of negative sec status is barely worth mentioning.

If perhaps you were unable to dock in high-sec past -5 or unable to perform market transactions in high sec... now we are talking consequence.

All we hear about from the shooty shooty crowd is risk vs reward and safety vs expectations. But when there is nothing of consequence for a ganker to be -10 other than they are fair game by others... (Everyone is fair game according to you guys so this isn't a consequence) then there is something broken.

No one should AFK in space, nor would I advocate that they do. My problem isn't that people should AFK haul, it is that being a ganker has less consequence than being in Faction Warfare... and tbh a ganker should be hunted by all empires and that should mean something.

Oh boo hoo. Not really. And last I checked you can still use a cloak at -10 sec status. Ever tried cloaking in highsec of the opposing faction?

You cant even dock at a contested station of the opposing faction. Come on man, try a little

Being a ganker should mean you live your life in low security space, and risk something to come to high security to do something bad.

Globby really should post a "how to" up on YouTube or something.

"avoid him" So a freighter pilot can avoid going to Jita if they have stuff that needs to go to Jita, yeah, need to avoid the gankers even when the gankers are in the choke point of your route or in both your start and end locations... no.

"shoot him" And that would accomplish what exactly?

"jam him" This is only really partially effective in the cases where they are using not sebo'd thrashers, as a sebo'd thrasher will actually be allowed to start locking its target before the server tells the rest of the players that they are allowed to start locking him, therefore getting his volley off. In the cases it is not a thrasher, jams aren't 100%, and all they need is one missed jam and your fragile little jam ship gets blown up and they continue without your minor annoyance.

"warp away" Yeah, cause that always works for people being bumped. Bumping is an art, it can be hard to do if you aren't good at it, but if you are really good then its not really any trouble to keep the guy bumped. Even if you warped away they would see where you warped to and most likely land before you did.

WTB Ganker that flies around with GCC in his fitted T2 ship...

You are smarter than that. Those ships are dropped at the time they are going to be used, you aren't going to get anything because the wreck you see will be Blue and from Concord.

With the changes to corp friendly fire, I'm curious how long this is going to remain as useful as it has.

Why should that be the logical conclusion?

Why would it be under attack from a fleet in the first place?

I'm curious, what does this actually look like in practical terms? Or rather I'm curious why there hasn't been any real attempt. Surely if its as easy as everyone says it is, SOMEONE would have been successful enough at to be newsworthy though?

Either its so easy to enforce justice that no one wants to bother, or its so hard to enforce justice that no one wants to bother, or no one wants to bother. So from a game design standpoint, the devs should be asking the question, why does no one bother?

Because piracy happens so often in heavily guarded locations in the same way by the same people all the time... Oh... right.

No. Avoiding fights is not the same as enforcing justice.

So why don't people?

The real problem is that people like you think that you should be able to do the same things over and over and over again without real consequences.

Sure, never said there were no consequences. I believe what I was saying was that there were no meaningful consequences.

Are referring to how most of the PVE mods in this game have penalites, but most of the PVP mods don't?

You do realize that the archon kill was in lowsec, right? Meaning no CONCORD and no loss of ships. As opposed to ganking a freighter in highsec, where all the gank ships die.

And the fact that despite these drawbacks the same folks are killing them over and over again with impunity suggests that the drawbacks are not enough to deter ganking at a massive isk loss.

So did you miss the part where the players mainly engaging in those activities (i.e Goons / Code & friends) are capable of doing so because it does not affect their actual EVE gameplay. It is all about having amassed too much ISK/power/whatever you wish to call it, so you can have multiple accounts with multiple alts and an endless supply of disposable ships. But everyone knows that right?

I do believe ganking, suicide or otherwise, must be a part of the game. However it has to be accessible on equal terms and consequences to all. Can anyone honestly say that a player with one character/account without a huge wallet or a huge corp supporting him can engage in non stop suicide ganking of that scale?

You need to be able to fund this or you will be left with a -10Sec character in a rookie ship and 1ISK. But guess what..Most if not all of the leet suicide gankers dont care beacuse "Hey its not my main anyway" Anonymity at its finest. And power stuggle is a b****h yeah. But in this case power struggle seems to be extremely outbalanced.

My bottom line on it: Let it unfold for as long as it can sustain itself and see where it takes us. And have someone taking the ISK bets.

Obviously goons will shoot at anyone not blue to them, and are often happy to shoot up blues as well. Their operations have a minimal impact on folks who are part of a powerbloc, since they have access to alliance SRP and easy isk. The ones who get hurt are the independent PvE highsec "pubbies" who are unable to recover from these losses.

Well, since you guys are the ones blowing them up no payment is needed. Not to mention that your line members can always go rat in an ishtar for an easy 50 mil an hour...and get discounted plex prices from the alliance.

Point is goon line members can easily replace any highsec losses....independent highsec PvE "pubbies" can't, and are the ones who suffer.

I fully accept that there are many lore reasons why a .5 or a .6 system wouldn't have a huge amount of protection from ganks. What I'm saying is merely that in a logical context if you have repeat offenders that are continually doing the same activities that the police would call for some kind of back up or have harsher sentences for repeat offenders. It really is that simple.

The folks getting their empty freighters blown up are not the level 4 mission and incursion runners.

They are the simple players who mine and run low level missions.

Those are the guys suffering here....the better players are good enough to not get hit by any of this. And the point is that goon line members never have to worry about being unable to plex - your alliance takes care of them...not so for independent pve highsec players who can get blown straight out of the game from ganking.

I see a lot of reports of violence in Yemen and Somolia, but what I don't see is a lot of reports of gangs continually attacking ships there. Given the price of oil these days I'd think that'd be just as news worthy as when piracy was a thing off the cape of Africa before American snipers started knocking pirates off.

So having a police force be actually effective at the job would mean that they are inherently broken and require immediate removal? Not sure what evidence you have to back this up.

Who said anything about making the NPCS do everything for you?

Just because you think I am, doesn't mean that I actually am.

Actually, what I'm asking for escalating consequences for repeated criminal activity. The form of those consequences is irrelevant to me. That is no way asking for CCP to protect me.

So asking for a scenario where a person could still die (and is entirely likely to still die) is asking for complete protection. Got it.

Nothing stupid about asking CONCORD to act like any effective police force would and take actual measures to curtail the crime sprees of known repeat criminals.

Asking for more consequences is not the same as asking for more protection.

Let me put it to you this way: the US made certain drug offenses harsher than others. The net result was not that citizens were more protected from dugs. It just meant that when criminals were caught, they had longer jail terms.

Actually gankers could kill more frequently than every 15 minutes by using chains of alts....they could even gank continuously.....

If Freighters had real capital fitting Hyperdunking wouldn't be a thing to start with since they could actually fit local reps anyway. And ignore a hyperdunker. This still all comes back to all Industrial ships being treated as second class ships when it comes to giving them the ability to actually make creative fits.
Freighters should have the same fittings as a Carrier or Dreadnaught. They are all Capital ships, give them fittings to match, not the insane gimped 'fittings' they have now.
And introduce stacking penalties on cargo expanders/rigs to avoid cargo space getting too excessive.

Sure, base stats may need moving around to do so, but then people actually get some real choices in fitting.

We'll agree to disagree on what I'm actually asking for.

They are very basic questions that CCP should be able to not only answer, but even break down by ship type and loss numbers.

A new generation of gamer was born after autosave on the XBox replaced gambling your quarters on fighting game matches with other people at the local arcade.

Did not the great Tippia point out that the killboard data from 2013 was incomplete thus making that task impossible? If you can tell me how to go about doing this, I'm all ears.

How do you filter out all the war targets?

This is nonsense...there may be a lot of nasty folks in nullsec...but highsec pve players are by and large nice, friendly, and collaborative.

Oh dear...as opposed to Goons smearing one of their own players as a BL spy, blowing up his ship, and trying to drive him out of the game? Not to mention a full out propaganda campaign against the poor follow. That is a lot worse than anything I have seen from highsec PvE players, who by the way are on the receiving end of crimes. Don't want to face the rage from them? Stop breaking the law and blowing them up.

Maybe you aren't trying hard enough? :P Or maybe you weren't around for the Great War? Either way, I remember some pretty bad stuff from both parties...

Revisionist history much?

Check out TheMittani.com propaganda from your leader. The initial article told us with certainty that the fellow was a BL spy...the next article claimed that he was a BL sympathizer...killed for his own good...and then only after tremendous pressure and the guy quitting the game, did CFC finally reverse course and admit that their allegations were a crock of baloni. That is not dignified behavior, that is simply reprehensible, and far worse than highsec PvE players ever do.

As you so aptly put it, there are a lot of dark and dysfunctional people in this game...and they basically all live in nullsec.

Well I've give you that its def "easier" on the hauler, because as everyone has pointed out, the only "legit fit" is tank. So no thought there. Course this goes against the whole "choices matter" bs when it comes to fit.

Because having ships instantly blow up would make anything but 1 shot ganks impossible and would turn all highsec into 1.0. That would be bad...ganking should be allowed and be possible, and should carry appropriate consequences.

It's "easier" to be a law abiding player than to be a criminal because the space police blow up criminals in highsec. If you want an "easier" life, move to nullsec.

Try to afk rat and afk mine in highsec like you do in null.

I think people complain about it more because they feel powerless to stop it. The game mechanics currently favor the attacker. I think its telling that for all the calls of everyone in this thread for players to dispense their own justice that its even "rarer" than ganking is.

Ya, I forgot, no one ever AFK rats in highsec....it's just a haven of people sitting at the keyboard dutifully locking up the rats every 20 seconds.....

You don't....you realize that the combination of desolate space and a giant blue donut means that it isn't worth the effort to actually pay attention. You just consider your (rare) losses part of the cost of doing business.

Oh? Its false that people that are grouped together for the sole purpose of killing others and can dictate the time, the place, and the firepower don't have the upper hand in all situations?

So back to victim blaming again?

Being anti-social is not incompetence.

No, it isn't.

Maybe if you put ALL of those arguments together. But if you recall I wasn't refuting all of those arguments together. I was refuting that being anti-social (which is a valid play style no matter how you slice it) is not incompetence.

Given that I've never made the argument (nor have I seen anyone else in this thread) that a lone player should be able to survive a combined fleet, its not incompetence and its not whining.

Man you guys sure LOOOOVE to exaggerate. I have "demanded" exactly zero things be changed in this game.

Well if I thought I lost this argument days ago I would have stopped.

Well I had a nice post about how ganking isn't 100% avoidable like the gankbears always claim, but its gone now? Ok.

In response to the "if you are ganked you are 100% at fault" and "ganking is completely avoidable" posts. I had them quoted but I'm sure as heck not going to go digging for them again.

Ganking is not completely 100% avoidable, with the exception of not logging in and playing, in which case you can completely avoid being ganked with 100% certainty.

If you are flying a freighter, and have a instawarp webbing buddy, you are not even close to safe. Now all they have to do use a fast locking scan ship can still lock and start the scan, and yes, i've seen it and done it myself just to make sure... Cargo scans still run (as it only takes the initiation of the scan to see the results), which means they see what you have. Instawarping ships aren't safe, just safer... they can still be scanned and still be victim to a headshot nado gang, or a normal gang if properly done. Using a hero tackle frig is another example of a huge weakness they have. Or they could just neutralize the webber while waiting for the freighter. Just cross your fingers and hope they aren't gunning for you this trip.

Unless these are somehow magically 100% avoidable by means unknown to all but the leetest gankbears? Basic rule is if someone wants to grief you enough, there is always a way and a person willing to take it that far. Some have said it has to be avoidable as they have never been ganked, congrats, you win some internets and may have a cookie.

I had another bit of a post about something else that I can't remember anymore, figures. It was in response to something but I'm sure it will come back up again.

But I just showed you four major things that made it easier to catch people, I am not talking about hisec, I am talking about Eve as a whole, should I also add much greater DPS in small hulls and yet the EHP has not moved to the same degree.

Your sandbox is that you don't like hisec, but here is the rub, this Eve you talk about has no place for solo or small groups that want to enjoy their own sandbox on their terms.

And hisec is not the most optimal way to make ISK, its the safest but the CFC are close to that level of security and make much much more as my friend does who is in the CFC at 300m per hour.

All I see is an Eve that has become even easier for the hunters and so much more difficult for the hunted and in truth it is not the game I used to play, its become to easy to kill stuff and in affect the value of killing stuff is devalued massively.

And all this pap about safe hisec, not from my wondow son, I have been watching the destruction of freighter after freighter in Niarja and Uedama, this is not small events, its round the clock massacres and it will have an iimpact.

It is not a dark difficult place for people who want easy kills, its childs play.

When I log on I find a report that a freighter is caught, so I head over there, the guy was in a Charon, he had an alt webbing it, he was not AFK, yet he was still bumped, they took two goes to kill him because people tried to help him. That in itself blows your AFK smokescreen away. Lets repeat he was not AFK and he had a webber yet he was bumped before he could web his freighter into warp, so much for your think not...

Baltec, the guy I talk about is in the CFC, thats what he said he does per hour in his efforts to get a Super to be part of your glorious space fleet, why would he lie to me. And in any case location is everything now that jumping has been nerfed so much, I used to operate in Cobalt Edge, I know the impact that had in terms of safety, surely a Goon of your strategic capability is not blind to the benefits of your location. Your biggest threat is BLOP's and people coming through WH's and the occasional poke by BL and we know how risk averse BLOP's players are don't we!

Yes you lost Titans in your space, how many after the jump nerf?

Actually I have 12 friends currently in the CFC of which 2 are in high positions, I was briefly in the CFC myself, its not especially difficult to work out who some of them are, perhaps you might want to kill their Titans, LMAO!!!

It's on the list of zkillboard's freighter kills. It appears Dravclad is referring to the most recent one in Raussinen.

But you are part of the best organised and most effective coalition in the game, we are talking about hisec here which is made up of people in the main just doing their own stuff in glorious oblivion, its like herding cats, some are smart that is for sure, but the vast majority, nope and in any case the cargo often dos not matter...

No, your guys locked him and scrammed him as he decloaked, then the Mach got a bump on him, very skillfully done even though he had a webber there, he did not fluff it, your guys did what they needed to do to get him. Why do player of your ilk have to be so condescending and obnoxious, is winning not enough for you? So you lie on what happened to rub his nose in it further, the guy was outplayed, he did not fluff it.

The guy is doing the anoms and selling on the escalations, hence his income.

Also it depends on the time of day, the threat where he is comes from BL and during the period he has picked to play they are non-existent.

And you talk about a maxed out mission runner such as Jenn a'Snide, most people are a lot more relaxed than that, you really talk about max out blizting, where as the guy I am talking about plonks a carrier down in anoms and gets too it, been there myself, its easy as hell if you are in a good location.

Actually there have been two HUGE nerfs to high-sec missions. One is drone agro and agro switching, and the other is the massive nerf to warp drive speeds.

So the argument that CCP hasn't already nerfed Missions while at the same time providing buffs to Null, Low (FW) and WH space is disingenuous at best. Valterra is right, high-sec is kinda like the constant lower middle-class of EVE, which is fine for a majority of players who play part-time which is why the population is so high.

Actually you are very very wrong. Isk/hr has decreased massively from a diluted LP market (incursions) and the nerfs I mentioned above. Also changes to Heavy Missiles, and several ships have been negative on Mission income. About the only buff I can see really mattering was the Marauder bastion module, but even that reduces the efficiency of missions by making you sit still.

Unless you are ratting as part of the CFC, or are way out in the deep parts of Drone lands you will have a very hard time of it.

Incursions are only run by a sub-set of hisec, and missions for the majority of people are not that great.

How is it a lie? Just because you sustain losses doesn't mean the losses of others in crappy null aren't far higher.

Oh and I'd also like to correct this point. You know what adjusts to how quickly missions are done? LP payouts. Thats right, these are averaged and calculated by how people ya know RUN the missions. So given this is true and the payouts have stayed roughly the same, then it would seem that ships having more firepower, more tank, and faster speeds have not changed mission income all that significantly.

You are so full of crap your eyes are brown. BS now warp at 2/3 their previous speed and changes to the warp acceleration means it takes them even longer even if you rig them back to 3au/s

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65418/1/numbers_table.png

Just because YOU put billions into an ascendency set and nerf your fit to put put warp rigs in doesn't mean there was a "buff" with the changes. You're hilarious.

Also the Drone nerf effects only mission runners and anom runners as Sleepers and Incursion rats already switched targets, they simply applied those mechanics to missions.

Baltec is out of his freaking gourd if he thinks warp speed changes and drone changes "helped" high sec mission runners.


This is all very interesting talk from both sides. Basically carebears like the security of high-sec, and gankbears like the security of high-sec. I say if the two of you can't get along we put you both in time out.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/warp-drive-active?_ga=1.118072521.1765930751.1420584837

Actually he is right. Warp acceleration is now completely different. And your T2 Rigged Mach with full head of isk can go 8.0 au/sec. Good for you. That is a nerf to mission running because now you can't fit Burst rigs, or Crystals, or anything else to help maximize your income.

Again, just because YOU sir can do something, doesn't mean it was a boost to the overall profession.

And? That is crap isk.

Missions have been nerfed,

and the more people are successful, the more they get nerfed because of LP

Carriers, carriers, carriers and carriers, or perhaps even carriers, or maybe carriers or likely carriers, that are carriers you know carriers, can I get any more sarky about carriers, Goons use carriers, did you know that carriers

Won't work.

As I keep trying to tell Karous, it's not all about ISK. It's about mechanics.

If you nerf highsec to death, and change nothing else, all you do is say through such actions "OK gate campers the game is all yours here are the targets you asked for".

So you won't be moving people from highsec to nullec. You will be giving them the option to leave the game or become a member of CFC IF and only IF they want to farm in nullsec like they did in highsec.

And given the present mechanics, it won't be "emergent" or "creating content" it'll be a big headache. Just like it is now. And few people will want to be out there. I know way more people who were out there once and left it and won't go back. You won't be forcing them.

Theoretical or not.

And the hunters of highsec and Church of HTFU trying to "go where the prey is" are going to have the same choices and die in the same fires. They won't be sticking around either.

This literally makes no sense. None. The problem is that belt ratting was the SOLE stream of income I had in Delve. It was one of the few things that I knew very well. I made BILLIONS off of it. In fact, combined with the mins I got from reprocing lvl 1 mods, and the few hauler spawns I got, I built 4 freighters, 1 carrier and 1 dred off of it. That doesn't even account for the raw isk in bounties, which if you chain the spawns right (i.e. kill the frig and cruisers spawns till you get trip bs spawns and then don't completely kill those in a system with roughly 8-12 belts) would well exceed income from even lvl 3 missions. If you are belt ratting today and only making enough income to compare to level two missions you are either A. Getting killed a lot, or B. doing something very very wrong. Even with all the changes they've done to reproc, and loot drops, the salvage alone, not taking into account anything else, would kick a level 2 mission's butt.

Why has the demand for LP gone up, or more importantly do you have examples of this?

As far as I'm aware there have been no significant changes to items in the LP stores to make them more or less valuable (which would obviously drive demand). In fact, in large pat what I'm seeing is that LP items have stayed either constant or gone down.

Since Jenna likes to point out she farms the mess out of SOE missions in Osmon, why don't we look at the price of those store items? Soe prob launchers consistent 40mil Soe Probes. pretty consistent between 400-500k The astero is all over the map, but even it wasn't from inflation reasons. Statios, same thing. Nestor, has come down pretty hard. (Granted a lot of things where changed to make that happen) But even so, what are you talking about when you mention LP inflation. Cuse I'm not seeing it.
But that aside, I don't think you can even prove that inflation is all that significant in Eve. Or do you have some reports from Dr. Eroj or whatever his name is that prove otherwise?

Further to the point, you'd think that with everybody running missions like Jenna does that item value would go down, not up.

Then please, by all means prove it. Otherwise this is nothing more than a pissing match.

Which, all things considered is irrelevant. If you have more people, then more people run missions, and LP values stay roughly the same. Which is exactly what is happening born out by all the market evidence I'm looking at.

So where are these examples?

There have not been a significant number of items added to LP stores. Fits have not drastically changed over the years. Losses don't appear to have significantly changed either.

See here's the problem with your argument. The one example you do have is not worth more because the LP suddenly got more valuable.

Demand is matching the supply.

Because again, markets do not exist in a vacuum. Manipulation, especially in Eve is rampant. You of all people should know that. In fact given the market graphs I'm looking at, the prices currently returning to 490k. Or did you miss the huge downward price trend in the past couple of months?

This make no sense. If your argument is that isk has inflated then by definition that means LP is also less valuable. LP is nothing more than a second income stream grounded in isk.

No, the reason your items have doubled in price is because a host of changes have been made to the game. Again, nothing exists in a vaccuum. The build cost of ships have changed over the years and even the job install cost has changed alittle less than a year ago. The bottom line is that goods do not cost more solely due to inflation. Even a cursory understanding of the changes to the game over the years would show you that.

And given that LP is grounded in isk then it also means that LP is worth less and less.

No, it isn't. You still haven't figured how the process for acquiring things like damage mods works or why their prices are not in any way reflective of inflation.

Missions are not now worth more than anoms.

Junk

Ok, then please do so.

I have. You managing to find one of two items nobody uses does not change anything. Inflation has happened, CCP themselves have shown this and even taken action to slow it down.

[quote=Valterra Craven]


I've ignored nothing you've said as I've responded to every post you've quoted me in. Do you read every single post in every single thread you post in? Do you read every single post that occurs in a day? I personally didn't read anything before page 31 in this thread. But since then I've seen you offer nothing to prove this.

That thread seems to be missing something. Store offers aren't free.

So in other words you can't just do a straight conversion of 1k lp into 1-2million isk because store offers cost items and money.

Basically what ever the missions pays out in isk and bonus isk is sunk back into it when you convert the lp into items.

Ah but you are forgetting some very important things. There are gankers in highsec, you have to watch out for them.

You are also not assured anything with missions, you might get some very bad missions all in a row which drop your numbers.

The Mach that Baltec uses has no tank, it is easier to kill than a hauler, so you are a sitting duck if you are caught by a group of gankers.

Mach vs Ishtar would be more appropriate because Machs are horrible for most null space. Mach vs Thanny far better comparison. Mach+implants as Baltec used to get 90mil/hr is 4x the price of a good fit sentry Thanny.

LP/ISK conversion is terrible on everything except SoE probe launchers and I've been told, certain Thukker items. This talk about mission LP being such great income is nonsense. Conversion rate on the probe launchers is about 1600 ISK/lp last I checked; most other items don't break 1000. The damage mods which require large numbers of extremely expensive tags are absolutely terrible investments.

I invite someone to show me an item that breaks 2000 lp/isk without extensive manipulation.

Check the daily kill logs in Osmon... people get scanned down and ganked every day.

Yes, you will get strings of bad missions, everyone does and they either use their standings buffer or wait out the timer.

Yes your Mach has about 40k ehp[/quote[

And 1k+ firepower with a fast align time and a rep. They wont bother you unless you are stuipd and fit nothing but pimp.

[quote=Market McSelling Alt]
You didn't give us numbers for a Mach, you gave us numbers for a Mach with an Ascendancy implant set that costs 3bil... Stop playing stupid forum games.

Oh no, not 41 carriers (some of which consensual pvp) in your whole space!!!

295 Marauders in Osmon system alone... what were you saying?

I said that don't require extensive market manipulation. That includes playing .01 games in station. You get about 2k on the SoE items from buy orders. I stand corrected on that; that's a reasonably good rate. The rest require serious .01 games so a dedicated station gaming alt is the only way to make it work. The FOF implants don't sell and the buy orders are at 1.5m, and the imperial navy EENM is a fluke that probably won't sell because it has the exact same stats as a dark blood EENM which sells for 2.6M.

Paper conversion rate is meaningless, you ignore a host of other factors that affect your ability to actually get a good conversion.

2K isk/lp for certain SoE items is the best you'll get without serious .01 warfare and I was slightly off on my numbers there. I don't have full market skills so I lose money on transaction costs.

Ok, well since we were talking about Machariels anyways, there was 218 of them killed in Jita so far this month... But if you say so. By the way, got a link to pve fit carriers killed in Goonswarm space, because your killboard doesnt allow for that level of customized search.

I don't know if you can look at my killboard and call me a carebear.

As for the ad hominem - the kills you guys put up are relevant to my argument. Cannibal Kane's kb for the past few months is mostly proteus vs barge or shitfit tech 1s.

Yeah I see 16 carrier loses for your whole alliance for the month, including 13 of them in pvp.

But I am sure you are talking about renters... by the way, why do people rent that terrible null sec anyways that makes so much less than highsec

Lets do a little comparison, we don't have carriers in hisec, so we want to compare levels of PvP which I will call non-consensual, people of course want to gank ratting carriers if they can, but the question is how many of those 41 that Baltec mention were engaged in an offensive action so the numbers cannot be directly comparable, to talk about marauders is irrelevent, as irrelevent as Jenn talking about using a Macherial for level 4's when no one in CFC space uses them.

Hisec is effectively Jita and the market, Deklin or Goon space is of course getting the benefits of their space, so while I have no idea what this 41 carriers denotes I will asses that below, but Freighters are the capital ships of hisec.

I have taken freighters and jump freighters destroyed in hisec, this does include wars, but as most of them are to go after people who cannot defend themselves I define them as non-consensual.

February so far

41 Charons
10 Rhea

26 Providence
0 Ark

50 Obelisk
4 Anshar

29 Fenrir
5 Nomad

165 freighters in what is 2/3rds of the month and the majority of those on the way to Jita and an eyeball assessment it looks like 80% of those were killed by CODE /CFC / Miniluv.

So lets go and look at the Goons.

Deklin is the Goons ratting area, simple as.

10 Goon alliance carriers lost in Deklin, of which 4 looked to be in PvP against BL. So 6 which look like ratting carriers.

Now lets compare to Osmon:

Marauders 0 however 34 ratting battleships killed.

Its as simple as that and has backed up everything I said before.

We are looking at the safety of Goon main area ratting which is 6 ratting carriers killed in Feb so far.

During the same period 165 freighters were killed in hisec

To also address you point on carriers I then detailed battleship losses in Osmon, as you might be aware Osmon is the main ratting system due to the SOE LP being the best one to go for. Battleships are the best ships to use for level 4's, while carriers are the best ships for anom ratting in null, so they are the flagship types for ratting and ganking. I showed you that Osmon on its own saw 34 battleship losses and a good number were rattlesnakes which is much more than the number of 6 carriers.

So we are comparing Osmon a single system in hisec against Deklin for the lead ship type to make ISK.

So in a nutshell all your arguments are wrong.

6 ratting Goon carriers lost in all of Deklin so far in February. I am not talking about your minions, I am talking about the ones that everyone protects.

War decs are a form of ganking, the Concord protection is removed, people try to continue but they risk death, so it is directly comparable to ratting in Deklin.

What I do see is an area set back from the borders areas which is mainly for Goons to rat in and the other alliances sit in the border areas and are much more exposed. The reason I selected that area is because it is remote and heavily used mainly by the Goons in the best systems.

Of course I know what the CFC is.

I look at reality not what people say it is, there is one Goon ratting carrier killed outside of Deklin in Cloud Ring during Feb.

You are just making yourself look silly now. In all the regions with all the pets you are claiming 42 ratting carriers at around what, 2-3bil a pop killed...

We just showed you that in ONE system in high-sec, a .7 none the less that almost the same number of BS class ships were ganked in the same time. That doesn't include Tengu's, Gilas, Command Ships, Ishtars or anything else used to mission.

You don't think that high-sec is more dangerous than CFC space? Hilarious.

You and baltec really need to come up with better ways to talk to people. Or, at the very least find more apt words. Or maybe even more varied ones. I bet if I counted how many times you guys have used the word lie or lied in this thread it would equal or surpass the number of code's ganks during their primary tz. Seriously though, about the only credible word you could use is maybe "delusional", or "miss-informed", oh oh what about "self-deceived"...

http://evelostfound.blogspot.com/2015/01/is-pve-safer-in-high-sec-or-null-sec.html

This was a very nice and recent analysis using not only ship death/npc ratios but also ship death value.

Their conclusion? Null PVE is completely broken because of how safe it is. Even the worst people at defending their ratters (CFC) were more than 3x safer in terms of real isk value than comparable highsec systems.

A. Because its not actually a lie.
B. Because it serves no purpose
C. It makes you worse than your opponent.

Again, you can't argue numbers. NPC kills in nullsec are not lower by a significant margin compared to highsec. So you have 1/6th the population as you guys claim but only 25% less npc kills.... must mean you are all carebears.

Feel free to find where anyone else has lied.

Back that up...

And, again what does that have to do with Null being safer?

More people do die in Highsec than null... API data proves that

Null has less death, astronomically less death than low as well

No one said goons are the only ratters in Dek... in fact I even said I wasn't counting the renters. But you only read what you want to read

Only 9 ratting carriers from Goons died

You are trying to find lies where there isn't any by twisting words and taking things out of context. In fact that makes you the worst kind of liar.

We are of course ignoring that belts have 3-5 rats and missions have 30-50. But for the sake of simplicity no one has been able to explain how Null is dangerous when so much PVE is actually happening.

CCP's chart shows that stuff is produced in Highsec and it dies in High and Low

I already told you that zkillboard and your own killboards don't show 41 carriers, so if you have links to your data I would make a correction in my statement. But you now have made this claim over and over but I don't see said data.

Actually that's not true. Given that you acknowledged that things like asteroids infinitely respawn, and npcs also exist in null sec space, (as well as missions) then null sec space also has infinite resources.

LOL Keep watching past that one point... he explains how much of a moron you are.

And once again, you haven't actually proven that this is the case. The problem with this argument is that it assume everyone in hi-sec is doing all missions optimally and only for LP. Which again you have yet to prove is even a majority, or an average, of even relevant to how most people run missions.

Because things that are made in highsec are killed in null... just because he doesn't point out that MOST ships are killed in Low, and second to that Highsec, and then Null with WH shortly behind, doesn't mean that Null is the only place things are killed.

But he also shows how a couple small battles... BATTLES, CONSENSUAL PVP, screwed up his numbers.

You do know how upgraded systems work right?

And null sec also has missions. I know because delve is littered with NPC stations with Blood Raider agents.

Proof is that if everyone was blitzing for LP then no one would run anything but SoE, Fed Navy and Republic Security.

Yet we know that people run missions all over, for all corps.

Yeah I do... do I have to explain to you what happens 10 minutes after you clear a Sanctum?

Shall I point to code's kill board showing you all of the stupid fits that you guys like to parade around on these forums? My point is that you can't assume that even a majority of the players read those guides, take wise advice, or even do missions for straight monetary gain.

Hey, if you guys want to settle bad space, what business is it of mine?

But I find it telling that despite the fact that your resources are "finite", and you have one sixth the population of hi-sec, that you are still pretty close to hi-secs carebear numbers.

1, how many do you need? They just keep respawning

What is the limit of upgraded systems?

Incursion != missions
Incursion runners != a majority, or even remotely represent an approximation of what actually goes on in hi-sec.
incursions != "infinite". (I've seen far too many "not active" in the SWARM MOTD incursion channels due to people popping them)

Now you are jumping around looking for other points to bring up. Incursion runners don't do it for the LP lol@ .4 to 1 conversion.

They do it for the fleet payout every site, which is a heck of a lot less than the same sites that can be found in Null sec by the way.

So the game already scales to your version of Risk v Reward, you should try incursions in Dek some time.

Because as you guys so often like to point out: people play badly.

Given the evidence of what people typically fly in missions systems vs your favored blitz ships would suggest otherwise.

But that goes back to a point made earlier... To max out the earnings one would do the incursions in Null sec... the reason why people aren't flocking in droves and waiting on wait lists to run incursions in null sec is they don't feel it is worth the effort for the extra isk.

So you want to nerf highsec, it won't get people to leave, they will find a new way to play or quit... people aren't going to leave one area for another just because you are going to change the game. You need to research the motives behind locality. Part-time players and people wishing to stay single player will never go to WH's or Null or low sec because the environment does not support their game play.

If true then the price of rigs would be astronomical, because no one would salvage. Not everyone blitzes and you can't say it with a straight face.

Its funny how you guys argue that freighters should have to work in teams and be escorted, but you guys can't be bothered to escort your stuff in null. I bet you don't guard your incursion runners for the same reason that a vast majority of freighters in hi-sec aren't accompanied by webbers.

Um yeah.. have you actually tried to do that?

I have. Its nearly impossible to blitz and salvage/loot at the same time.

So now who doesn't want to put effort into it

I have two monitors. Its still damn hard. But I ask again, have YOU actually tried to do this? I have.

So, no.

I do most of my pvp and income in FW lowsec. It just irks me to see "elite pvp'ers" greening their killboards with wardecs and baiting in highsec and then whining when someone suggests that maybe the risk v reward there needs some adjustment.

I would LOVE for these guys to bring their shiny **** to lowsec. We'd probably still never get them off a station undock but it would be an improvement.

Oh? waiting on a gate, or shooting at a few targets designated for you is hard?

Also if you still scoop loot these days you aren't playing optimally. Ain't nobody got time for all those clicks.

Because all stratops end in amazing battles like HED, or BR?

Apparently you don't know how MTU operate if you still scoop your loot.

I never said missioning or salvaging was remotely hard. In fact, this how I actually play. What I said was hard was blitzing and salvaging at the same time.

So warping from system to system is hard now?



So what your saying is that if you do it right you loot once instead of looting every wreck... which is exactly what I implied is how I play. Just because eve doesn't have a loot all button like other games (aka SWOTR) that loots EVERYTHING near you doesn't mean that the MTU doesn't act like one. Also, what exactly does salvaging have to do with looting?

Example A. your honor:

Then please, detail your exact procedure down to the minute detail and list your times compared to the times mentioned in the thread that you and baltec always refer back to when arguing about how much can be made from lvl 3 per hour vs null sec anoms. Cuse you know what that thread didn't encompass? Looting And salvage while blitzing. Probably because you can't actually blitz, and also loot/salvage at the same time.

Then why omit that income in your blitzing spreadsheets?

They must be very very good lies since you can't actually counter them.

And your statements about LP ignore market realities. Actual LP conversion rates and ISK/hour often don't work out nearly as well as they do on paper.

Ok, so, considering you are making the argument now, surely it would be easy to go back through and detail it just like you guys did in the other thread.

. Its nearly impossible to blitz and salvage/loot at the same time.

Are you REALLY this bad at debate that you cannot even prove something that you claim to do on a regular basis?

Of course you are. That's why you failed to prove a single argument in your bullshit narrative, and go into self grandiosing with full steam.

At all costs, no one must know that you aren't a real player.

No he isn't, he got banned for using that method. (probably gonna get removed)

http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/51980-The-Banned-thread

And he hangs on to 41 killed, rubbish, we are talking Goons not CFC!

I don't really need to reply to that, the absurdity of your argument is obvious to anyone with a brain and the willingness to use it.

What to refute something totally absurd, dream on!

I selected based on location, the simple thing was to find the best most highly protected 0.0 and compare to hisec and the most used mission system in game, I selected a region because of the 10 person max per system, which equates to the single system Osmon in terms of activity.

Pretty easy to compare and your comparison is again just bull.

You lost 6 ratting carriers and in the same period 34 ratting BS were lost in Osmon, carriers are the best way to run anoms, BS are the best way to run level 4's.

I could start adding in your Ishtars and add in Tengu's, that would get inetresting because a lot of people run AFK ishtars, but on the flip side Tengu's pimp fitted are a tempting target.

My selection for comparative purposes is totally valid.

The comparison is between part of a 0.0 region highly protcted by military power and remoteness and a Concord protected hisec system which is the best for mission running. I compared the flagship ratting ships for anoms against the flagship ratting ships for level 4's.

6 ratting carrier kills against 34 ratting BS kills.

The comparison I have selected is valid.

RG9-7U -0.98 system, 5833 NPC ships killed in the last 24 hours, not a single ratter killed in 48 hours

Osmon 33863 NPC ships killed in the last 24 hours, 104 ships killed in the last 48 hours.

Did you notice the part with 0 kills for player ships, might have slipped past the rose tinted glasses?

In the context of what I was pointing out it is totally valid

Hmmm this thread got resurrected?

I suppose it is fitting, seeing as how the whole hyperdunking thing evolved this weekend.
And right in Jita, the one place freighters are virtually guaranteed to go.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/47764692/

tanking didn't help
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47810430/

apparently webs didn't either
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47789491/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47812958/

Much of what has been discussed in this thread is now no longer applicable.
-not a pipe system, it's a source/destination
-no catalysts used
-ineffective webbing

Interesting...