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Jake Solnich
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Posted - 2003.10.24 09:23:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Jake Solnich on 24/10/2003 09:24:55
Just another pointless argument that exploiters will try and defend as fair game.
It may very well not be an exploit, but if you use some common sense and look at the situation you will soon see otherwise.
Everyone knows this game is far from perfect and it has many issues which could be taken advantage of by a skilled and cunning exploiter.
I consider it an exploit anytime somone purposely uses a weakness in the system to gain an unfair advantage against another player.
This argument will never end because some people will never agree that using a weakness in the game to gain an unfair advantage is just plain wrong.
It may take awhile, but CCP will eventually catch on and maybe do something about this by changing the mechanics of jump-in points so that they are RANDOM and not the SAME damn point almost everytime.
I would rather die a free man than live as a slave. |
Basileus
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Posted - 2003.10.24 09:41:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Basileus on 24/10/2003 09:45:39
T w a t t ing someone is no exploit.
Relying on lag to do the job for you is not only very lame, but it is definitly an exploit IMHO.
CCP, sort this out will you? |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.10.24 09:48:00 -
[33]
There's no actual point arguing the toss about exploits etc because, as a wise man has already stated, it's upto the devs to decide what is.
Bug report it and see what happens, is the best advice.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jessica Logan
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Posted - 2003.10.24 10:23:00 -
[34]
 Quote:
In Real-life, uu-mans setup minefields all the time in areas they know their enemy travels through often. While it may not be very nice of them, you hardly can call them exploiters.
That's funny, because in "real life" mines don't cause lag, fill up someone's vision with "threat windows" and can be removed without setting them off.
Although I would expect an "argument" like that from a splinter group of the Gang. Heh.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.10.24 10:26:00 -
[35]
Carebear definition of exploit: (noun) Any tactic that allows the possibility of their being killed.
Pirate definition of exploit: (there is no such word. Please try again.)
Dictionary definition of exploit: (verb) make use of, or adapt to the purpose of.
Standard definition of exploit in the context of MMORPGs: Any gaming method which makes use of any unintended feature of the game for the gain of the user.
Firstly, lag. Lag's an unintended feature of anything, so any tactic which is being used for the purpose of causing lag HAS to be an exploit. But since mines cause damage as well, there's a legitimate reason for laying a minefield as well as an illegitimate one. If it's true that they louse up your ship's ability to warp from a point, via A-P or not, that's two legitimate uses.
Secondly, jump-in points in deep space. According to CCP, jump-in points should not be in deep space, so anybody who ever sits at one, anywhere, in order to catch those arriving, is automatically using an exploit; minefield or not, lag or not, fair combat tactics or not.
The jump-in point is supposed to be at the gate back to the system you were in before. If that gate's guarded by sentry guns, placing mines ought to get you slaughtered by the guns - who'd automatically take out the mines as well, if they have any sense - and leave you sitting in a pod, looking like an idiot. If the gate is NOT guarded by sentry guns, I don't see any reason why you can't lay a minefield there - provided you are doing so for a legitimate reason, and not to "lag someone out."
@ Jash: If you accept the causing-lag purpose behind the minefield, the time taken to lay them is irrelevant, because once in place they'll stay in place practically forever. You could fill a battleship with mines, head to the target area, lay them all, then go back and kit yourself out for combat.
If you don't accept the causing-lag purpose, then the whole argument's moot anyway 
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Drutort
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Posted - 2003.10.24 10:35:00 -
[36]
Jash Illian
when CCP finds some way to improve that lag... tell me do you think they will be using these mines as a strat?? HELL NO and yoU KNOW IT!! so it only means 1 thing...
you should know better, it doesnt matter that everyone uses...
Ya i want to see how many can's and mining drones and mines will be in space when CCP fixes so that the ship doesnt load until its done loading everyting... you will see that once it doesnt work how they want it to work they will be forced to play the right way 
of course all these area's are in the grey side... and it sucks that it is that way.
I dont know why people bother too much to argue... but people should know about mines creating extra lag though... and nothing else... trying to argue about it being in "CCP's books as an exploit is pointless, because they couldnt enforce players to stop, and its big normal feature that just isnt working like it should.
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.10.24 11:04:00 -
[37]
Using hundreds of mines to hurt some one = fair play
Using hundreds of mines to lag some one = exploit
Pure and simple. The fact is that the potential exploiter can just say, im making a mine field to kill not lag. Mines dont need to be more than 30 polies max, that way they wont cause much lag, 100 30 poly mines = 3000 polies, aka not much to render. The fact that they show up on threat indicator kinda destroys the point of mines .
Also i think mines should do more dmg. I mean the person has to fly into them...
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Drethen Nerevitas
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Posted - 2003.10.24 11:34:00 -
[38]
WILL YOU NUBS STFU!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!111111111111
J00 ARE GIVING AWAY MY UBAH STRATEGY!111111!!!!!!
Mines do little damage. But any IDIOT that says an additional 600-2,000 damage over the course of a battle needs their head examined. I won't tell you how I use and would use mines. I do agree that it would be nice if they were pumped up-perhaps 100 damage a mine, enough to make it hurt realistically but not a case of overpowering.
I won't tell you how I'd use mines. I doubt anyone else with half a brain would (Unless you furcovered fools **** them off so much they just give up). But I'll tell you right now-with the current damage, weight, durability (OK, HOWEVER if CCP introduces a limited timespawn for mines (Which thanks to threads like this they probably will eventually) they will become nearly 100% useless), mines are a very potent weapon in the hands of someone who knows how to use them.
Maybe they are being used for lag. But any moron who cries "Sploit!" the second they see a fking mine deserves to be shot on sight. And besides, lag is so common in this game (And no, this relates in NO WAY to my previous argument, stfu n00bs, that one still stands), anyone who plays for over three weeks and HASN'T adapted for it (a fair few people by the looks of things) is a complete moron.
</rant>
TY, come again .
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
Raven DeBlade
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Posted - 2003.10.24 13:02:00 -
[39]
Since Mines dont do any damage at all, thier sole purpose is just 1 maybe 2 a.t.m and its NOT to kill ships exept with lag... get over it. And yes i bet Empires LOVE people putting out huge minefields in Empire Space....
"To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees"
"Any statements made above this line are my persona" |
Drethen Nerevitas
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Posted - 2003.10.24 13:10:00 -
[40]
Raven, the purpose of carebears is to be my targets and cannon fodder.
Get over it.
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.24 13:11:00 -
[41]
Quote:
@ Jash: If you accept the causing-lag purpose behind the minefield, the time taken to lay them is irrelevant, because once in place they'll stay in place practically forever. You could fill a battleship with mines, head to the target area, lay them all, then go back and kit yourself out for combat.
If you don't accept the causing-lag purpose, then the whole argument's moot anyway
I don't accept it because the original poster is full of crap and I have serious doubts he ever encountered a mine. I know from experience with having mines used against me that the damn environment causes more lag than they do. I know from playing with mines during beta that launching them is time consuming and requires a lot of effort, which runs quite counter to someone who is by definion looking for the easiest way to make isk.
I know from reading the retarded suggestions of how people could launch a ton of mines that the exicitable braindead muppets around here are looking for any means to yell exploit while having no actual flippin experience.
So given the lack of evidence and the abundance of stupidity, the argument is moot until there's more evidence and less stupidity.
Load up a ship, drop the mines, dock, rearm and setup camp? Obviously not in an area where you expect to have any traffic for an hour. At which point I'd ask why you were there.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Drethen Nerevitas
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Posted - 2003.10.24 13:18:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 24/10/2003 13:19:04
Pssst.
Jash.
You're forgetting what indies are for  .
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.10.24 13:24:00 -
[43]
"Load up a ship, drop the mines, dock, rearm and setup camp? "
... Having another corporation member do supply runs with an indy or even battleship if you feel like it... bringing the ammo and/or mines when needed while you camp would do the trick, i figure. It's not like camping is done single-handedly most of the time... o.O
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Drethen Nerevitas
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Posted - 2003.10.24 13:31:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 24/10/2003 13:31:45
What she...
...err, what I said.
*glares across the galaxy at J0*
Ebil. Ahem...the point is, mines=legitimate. They can be a sod to deploy. They can be a sod to use properly in combat.
But they work.
Anyone disagree?
If not, argument cleared.
If so, please think before you post.
Ty.
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.10.24 13:33:00 -
[45]
"What she...
...err, what I said.
*glares across the galaxy at J0*
Ebil."
... Damn you people with the higher level of Fast Writing skill. *glares back*
:s
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Drethen Nerevitas
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Posted - 2003.10.24 13:35:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 24/10/2003 13:36:25
You think you have it hard  . I'm sitting here refreshing the forum list every ten seconds waiting for you slow coaches to put your arguments back up   .
*glares back with his ship headlights*
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
Raven DeBlade
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Posted - 2003.10.24 13:39:00 -
[47]
Jash Illian.. well i have encounterd Mines at jumpin points so stop your stupid "arguments" if you havent even seen a mine on a postcard, thats your loss, but i assure you stuff exists EVEN if you havent "seen" them.
"To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees"
"Any statements made above this line are my persona" |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.24 13:46:00 -
[48]
Quote:
"Load up a ship, drop the mines, dock, rearm and setup camp? "
... Having another corporation member do supply runs with an indy or even battleship if you feel like it... bringing the ammo and/or mines when needed while you camp would do the trick, i figure. It's not like camping is done single-handedly most of the time... o.O
No j0sephine, it's not done single handed. Odd tho that most pirates you encounter don't have an industrial anywhere nearby tho.
Quote:
Jash Illian.. well i have encounterd Mines at jumpin points so stop your stupid "arguments" if you havent even seen a mine on a postcard, thats your loss, but i assure you stuff exists EVEN if you havent "seen" them.
Good. Now tell me the number of mines at the location, the number of ships, the number of drones, the number of missiles launched (because as an earlier poster lied missiles do cause a good bit of lag).
Mines interrupting your ability to warp? I think that's outstanding. Better those than anchoring secure containers at the jump in point  .
Mines causing lag? Horse****
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Drethen Nerevitas
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Posted - 2003.10.24 13:50:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 24/10/2003 13:52:47
Pirates don't use indies
You mean, "many pirates" .
Edit: What Jash said about mines is completely true. Except the "you can't drop 'em fast enough" bit .
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.10.24 13:55:00 -
[50]
"No j0sephine, it's not done single handed. Odd tho that most pirates you encounter don't have an industrial anywhere nearby tho."
Aye, but most pirates weren't playing with the mines so far i think. And well... ideas how to improve the logistics of pirate operations are about the only thing threads like this are good for ;s
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.24 14:27:00 -
[51]
Quote:
"No j0sephine, it's not done single handed. Odd tho that most pirates you encounter don't have an industrial anywhere nearby tho."
Aye, but most pirates weren't playing with the mines so far i think. And well... ideas how to improve the logistics of pirate operations are about the only thing threads like this are good for ;s
Of all the crap the original author posted, the single plausible thing given the current game mechanics is:
Mines prevented his ship from entering warp.
Lag? Horse****. According to the ones that die anything used to kill them causes lag. Got drones? Lag exploiter. Use more than one ship? Lag exploiter. They died. Tough ****. Get over it or get out of the game.
Mines filling the threat box? Unless it's a recent break, mines never appeared in the threat box except when launched. And given what my last threat box looked like, the damn thing is useless anyways. Between my own FoF missiles, the drones attacking me and my attackers it was and always will be quicker to target visually.
People on these forums are too easily led by the nose.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.10.24 14:51:00 -
[52]
Edited by: drunkenmaster on 24/10/2003 15:01:23
Quote:
Since Mines dont do any damage at all, thier sole purpose is just 1 maybe 2 a.t.m and its NOT to kill ships exept with lag... get over it. And yes i bet Empires LOVE people putting out huge minefields in Empire Space....
So why did I see a couple of Blade BS's camping outside an empire station with drones deployed the other night? surely not for lag...
look at your own guys before accusing others..
Also, for other people concerned about such exploits:
Don't post it in the General Discussion forum, you daft twats. If there is one thing guaranteed to make a tactic more popular, it's posting it somewhere that:
- the devs rarely, if ever, read
- the pirates often read
If you think it is a real exploit, then put in a petition, ffs. Don't post it in here claiming that is 'always effective' or 'unstoppable'..
I really can't believe how some people are allowed on the internet.
.
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Raven DeBlade
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Posted - 2003.10.24 15:14:00 -
[53]
well Mr Drunken heavy drones are for combat and DO damage, alot more than mines!
"To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees"
"Any statements made above this line are my persona" |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.10.24 15:26:00 -
[54]
But you weren't fighting anyone..
Regardless, half the people on this forum would call you exploiters just for having them out..
And mines *do* do damage, it may not be a great deal, but is probably more than quite a lot of the available drones (heavies excluded). Saying they do 'no damage' could be misleading for a lot of the people who have never seen them, and base their opinions on other people's opinions, and such.
happy camping.
.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.24 15:32:00 -
[55]
Quote:
But you weren't fighting anyone..
Regardless, half the people on this forum would call you exploiters just for having them out..
And mines *do* do damage, it may not be a great deal, but is probably more than quite a lot of the available drones (heavies excluded). Saying they do 'no damage' could be misleading for a lot of the people who have never seen them, and base their opinions on other people's opinions, and such.
happy camping.
To go further, if they do prevent a ship from entering warp as they can't align I find that a fitting use given the issues with deploying them and the damage they do.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.10.24 15:44:00 -
[56]
Quote:
Good. Now tell me the number of mines at the location, the number of ships, the number of drones, the number of missiles launched (because as an earlier poster lied missiles do cause a good bit of lag).
Someone smarter than me once said of an opponent "He uses facts like a drunkard uses a lamp-post: for support rather than illumination".
Missiles cause very very little lag when in flight.
In a recent fight with 7 BS vs 7 BS, one of them was a Raven launching oodles of cruises/torps and I certainly noticed very little lag.
In fact, after the battle (which we won having taken down 2 scorps and a raven to no losses of our own) most of us commented on how smooth the battle was considering the number of entities in space.
14 BS, around 18 drones, a jumpgate, 20-30 missiles (most hitting me ), and the vast majority of us playing in windowed.
Hardly any lag.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.10.24 15:47:00 -
[57]
Quote:
No j0sephine, it's not done single handed. Odd tho that most pirates you encounter don't have an industrial anywhere nearby tho.
Never heard of pirates fighting on prepared ground?
Wouldn't surprise me if people who camp a regular spot have secure cans full of ammo, missiles, mines at a bookmarked safe spot.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.10.24 15:51:00 -
[58]
Blah.
Who cares what any of us think about exploits.
Like drunkenmaster has said many times "GM's decide that".
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Lysithea
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Posted - 2003.10.24 15:52:00 -
[59]
Exploit, not exploit, bug, not bug... the only thing that is clear is that Jash is a real jerk.
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.10.24 16:16:00 -
[60]
Quote:
Exploit, not exploit, bug, not bug... the only thing that is clear is that Jash is a real jerk.
er.. that's not very constructive now, is it?
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