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New "exploit"? or something else?

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Alotta Fagina	Posted - 2003.10.24 01:26:00 - [1] So now have "pirates" started using HUGE ammounts of Mines as 1. Lag Inducers 2. Warp inhibitors and 3. They fill your threat list. All at jumpin points.... WEEEE and since "GMs" says it ISNT an "exploit" this is the future for you pilots out there... 100s of Mines at jumpins laid in place by Pilots that need every little "advantage" to get a kill. Cant wait where this will go... LONG LIVE MINES!
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.24 01:29:00 - [2] Quote: So now have "pirates" started using HUGE ammounts of Mines as 1. Lag Inducers 2. Warp inhibitors and 3. They fill your threat list. All at jumpin points.... WEEEE and since "GMs" says it ISNT an "exploit" this is the future for you pilots out there... 100s of Mines at jumpins laid in place by Pilots that need every little "advantage" to get a kill. Cant wait where this will go... LONG LIVE MINES! End yourself before you call using more than one turret on you exploiting I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Alotta Fagina	Posted - 2003.10.24 01:31:00 - [3] i didnt say it WAS an Exploit... i said it ISNT! just what people can expect to meet... learn to read before you post...
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.10.24 01:50:00 - [4] The fact that the mines show up on the threat list sounds like a real PITA and something that needs sorting out. .. a bit like killing somebodies missiles that are fired AT you can result in a security drop inside empire space - DUH!
Captain Lugnut	Posted - 2003.10.24 01:52:00 - [5] Quote: i didnt say it WAS an Exploit... i said it ISNT! just what people can expect to meet... learn to read before you post... meet jash, an all aound exploit user, pker, griefer, and immature brat. He is the sort you will meet doing this sort of thing. Wont take on anyone that isn't lagged out, they my actualy fire back...(pirates are not pkers, pirates are trying to make money...not just killing to kill)
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.24 01:55:00 - [6] "meet jash, an all aound exploit user, pker, griefer, and immature brat. He is the sort you will meet doing this sort of thing. Wont take on anyone that isn't lagged out, they my actualy fire back...(pirates are not pkers, pirates are trying to make money...not just killing to kill)" ... Whoah; sounds like Jash' fresh cloning process went somewhat askew... :s
Gunni	Posted - 2003.10.24 02:01:00 - [7] what is the point in using mines if u dont make HUGE minefields? they only do 30 dmg each, and cost nothing to make... ------------------------------------- Gunni Viziam
StealthNet	Posted - 2003.10.24 02:06:00 - [8] Edited by: StealthNet on 24/10/2003 02:07:45 IMHO, no matter what people say, this IS an exploit. I don't know if that's because I work with security, but oh well.. Definition of exploit: "the use of the knowledge of a bug, misconfiguration or not intended behaviour, to gain unauthorized access, priviledges, or certain advantage over a system or systems." The jump in point IS not intended to be how it is atm. To make matters worse, other players can see you while you are still loading your screen / scene (imo this is key). People use this knowledge to gain certain advantages. They intentionally use their knowledge to produce more lag and make the loading time even bigger, enough to run out the protection timer. So, no matter what is said or not, this IS an exploit. But, if CCP considers this an acceptable behaviour, well, this is ANOTHER issue. If GMs told players before, that the use of such exploits is acceptable, then it's ok don't you think ? But if they said that because it is not an exploit, then they are wrong twice. /emote fits 4 thermal tacs and 1 VM15 and turn them all on _______________________________________________
Valeria	Posted - 2003.10.24 02:21:00 - [9] I don't really see how this is an exploit. Well, perhaps if they only cause lag and not damage. But they do. Not much, but they do. In Real-life, uu-mans setup minefields all the time in areas they know their enemy travels through often. While it may not be very nice of them, you hardly can call them exploiters. Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage.
Raven DeBlade	Posted - 2003.10.24 02:23:00 - [10] 100 mines do 3000 damage, so who cares? saturating an area with mines is useless damagewise, only thing they are used for is lag and warp prohibition, plain and simple. "To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees" "Any statements made above this line are my persona"
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.24 02:27:00 - [11] Quote: "meet jash, an all aound exploit user, pker, griefer, and immature brat. He is the sort you will meet doing this sort of thing. Wont take on anyone that isn't lagged out, they my actualy fire back...(pirates are not pkers, pirates are trying to make money...not just killing to kill)" ... Whoah; sounds like Jash' fresh cloning process went somewhat askew... :s Nah, no worries j0. He's just a hater. I had fun getting podded. Hatur, painkiller, Trinton and I will being meeting again. I was honestly only expecting Hatur and painkiller I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
dalman	Posted - 2003.10.24 02:29:00 - [12] Quote: 100 mines do 3000 damage, so who cares? saturating an area with mines is useless damagewise, only thing they are used for is lag and warp prohibition, plain and simple. IE, an Exploit. It took longer than I expected though. At the day when RUS tought m0o/Sinc how much better it is to camp a spawnpoint instead of a gate, I stated I didn't think it would take more than 2 weeks, top, before this happened. M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.24 02:35:00 - [13] Quote: i didnt say it WAS an Exploit... i said it ISNT! just what people can expect to meet... learn to read before you post... What are you, Kerry's alt or something? I explained it once before. You ask a question in a manner guaranteed to get someone calling it an exploit. Oh sure, you don't actually say "Dey be 'sploiting!". You just goad the gullible into doing it for you. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Raven DeBlade	Posted - 2003.10.24 02:36:00 - [14] Of course its an exploit, just another way to lag people down... "To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees" "Any statements made above this line are my persona"
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.24 03:04:00 - [15] Edited by: Jash Illian on 24/10/2003 03:06:17 Quote: Of course its an exploit, just another way to lag people down... sigh How about we end this now before I hurt myself from laughing so hard. #1 - The last time mines were used against me, the only time they showed in the Threat Box was when launched. After about 5-10 seconds they completely disappeared and could only be found visually or with the scanner. Unless that is something recently broken, this is the first problem with the original post. #2 - Mines were NOT reduced in volume when missile launchers were reduced in capacity. Currently a Malkuth Incursion will only hold 1 mine. An S-110 Siege Launcher will hold 2 mines. The RoF on a Malkuth Incursion with Missle Launcher Operations 5 is 11.40 seconds. I'm in the middle of replacing the bship I lost so I can't tell you the exact refire rate on the S-110 Siege, but for demonstration purposes we'll say it's equal even tho it's actually slower. Therefore to launch 100 mines with a Malkuth Incursion would take a person approximately 35 minutes. Using a S-110 Siege would take approximately 26 minutes. This is the second problem with the original post. The original poster is using scare tactics to get people to jump on the Exploit Bandwagon. Vast minefields in the middle of nowhere are about as likely to happen as me growing a 3rd arm under the current circumstances. The number of ships required to actually create a huge minefield quickly would generate more lag than the mines themselves. Given these 2 basic flaws, I seriously doubt the original poster has ever encountered a mine before. As for them being used as a warp inhibitor...shrug. Bout time someone found a use for them. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Sarah Jane	Posted - 2003.10.24 03:21:00 - [16] Creating mine fields. . Exploit, or tactical warfare copied from real life? they aren't called DEPLOYABLES for nothing ya know. -------------------------- <Zybl0re> get up <Zybl0re> get on up <Zybl0re> get up <Zybl0re> get on up <phxl\|paper> and DANCE * nmp3bot dances :D\-< * nmp3bot dances :D\|-< * nmp3bot dances :D/-< <[SA]HatfulOfHollow> i'm going to become rich and famous after i invent a device that allows you to stab people in the face over the internet
Moses Alticpoco	Posted - 2003.10.24 03:26:00 - [17] always the pirates complaining Moses Is in the Promised Land Of EVE :)
dalman	Posted - 2003.10.24 03:28:00 - [18] Quote: Creating mine fields. . Exploit, or tactical warfare copied from real life? they aren't called DEPLOYABLES for nothing ya know. The difference may be that in real life mines hurt people and vehicles. In this game, they don't. M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.24 03:35:00 - [19] Quote: Quote: Creating mine fields. . Exploit, or tactical warfare copied from real life? they aren't called DEPLOYABLES for nothing ya know. The difference may be that in real life mines hurt people and vehicles. In this game, they don't. dalman, just read what was said and think about it will ya? It's pure bull**** and you're smart enough to know it. If you can gather enough ships to drop 100 mines in 5 minutes, you won't need the mines to lag anyone. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
dalman	Posted - 2003.10.24 04:31:00 - [20] Well, a Raven with 6 siege launchers would drop 100 mines in 243 seconds = 4 minutes. But since a Raven can't fit 100 mines in the cargo... M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.24 04:39:00 - [21] Quote: Well, a Raven with 6 siege launchers would drop 100 mines in 243 seconds = 4 minutes. But since a Raven can't fit 100 mines in the cargo... And do what at that point? Use harsh language to get the target to self-destruct? Cause he wouldn't have much space left over for any missiles, the Raven's primary ammo. The investment to do it wouldn't be worth the payoff. The same Raven could load up with FoF cruise missiles and be just effective as mines in keeping a ship from entering warp. And 10x as effective at killing the ship. This whole thread hogwash, started by yet another JAFO that prolly got his indy vaped. And is looking for any excuse besides "I'm stupid and I suck" to explain his destruction. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Viceroy	Posted - 2003.10.24 04:52:00 - [22] anyone that thinks their opinion on what is an exploit and what isnt actually counts deserves the nobel end yourself(tm) prize. -
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.24 07:16:00 - [23] Quote: and since "GMs" says it ISNT an "exploit" Considering the fact Alotta says this in his first post, the title of the thread seems rather retarded. I wonder if there is anywhere in space that you can use mines without some fool calling exploit... It's like people playing 'war' based FPS' and whining that a sniper killed them from a huge distance, from a place that they can't be seen. It's what they're for. If they come up in the threat window, you should consider yourself warned, and lucky. Think of the future, when we'll have gate-to-gate jumping. If a group of people mine out a warpgate. Would that be an exploit too? can someone offer me a way to use mines that would: A) be any use to anyone, and B) Won't get called an exploit by some little screamer? .
John Zeppe	Posted - 2003.10.24 07:25:00 - [24] The point is... I suppose mines are like drones was before. For every drone, add 0.5-1 second to the loading time. Same thing about mines. That's at least a minute extra when jumping in, and they know it. Until jump-ins are like they're supposed to be, lagging them down (yes lagging them down, not trying to kill people with mines) is IMHO nothing but lagging people.
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.24 07:34:00 - [25] whether or not they cause lag is still open to question. After all there still some idiots running round accusing people of can lag, and that's been a non-issue for months... And I don't see anyone complain about the huge amount of lag you get from a gate with 10 concord ships floating around it. Oh, wait.. that's because that would only be a bad thing if you're a pirate... which is totally unnecessary, because you can't camp the gate anyway, because of the tech 3 sentry guns, and concord can warp in and target you just as quickly as they could if they were there all the way through... Nobody minds having systems in place that insta-gank pirates before their screens load, so why is this any different? .
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.24 07:48:00 - [26] I thought everyone in the entire World of Eve agreed that mines were more useless than a chocolate fireguard. Now, suddenly, they're highly popular and cause lag. Gee, wonder what the link is there. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
PropanElgen	Posted - 2003.10.24 08:06:00 - [27] Quote: Quote: Well, a Raven with 6 siege launchers would drop 100 mines in 243 seconds = 4 minutes. But since a Raven can't fit 100 mines in the cargo... And do what at that point? Use harsh language to get the target to self-destruct? Cause he wouldn't have much space left over for any missiles, the Raven's primary ammo. The investment to do it wouldn't be worth the payoff. The same Raven could load up with FoF cruise missiles and be just effective as mines in keeping a ship from entering warp. And 10x as effective at killing the ship. This whole thread hogwash, started by yet another JAFO that prolly got his indy vaped. And is looking for any excuse besides "I'm stupid and I suck" to explain his destruction. Indy's yes. They would take lots of mines in their cargohold.. Do you honestly believe the rats are placing these mines to cause damage? You know very well why they place them at jump-in points, even tho you and/or the rats do not want to admit it. All the angels and the puny men of god looked away... Frightened to death by the evil that was born on that day!
Dajjal	Posted - 2003.10.24 08:28:00 - [28] and all pirates exploit - simply by being in the same system as anyone else causes lag and is, therefore, an exploit on their part to gank luvvly people like me. in fact as soon as Jash and his ilk connect to the internet they cause lag and are exploiting. hmmm... in fact every one is causing me lag. you are all gawdam exploiters techincal question... Are mines indiscriminate? ie if whoever deployed them gets too close do they pop - and if not are gang/corp mates immune as well? is it possible to chain their explosions? i never seen any one use mines. my only experience was accidently dropping 1 near a gate and then receiving a SR hit some time later when another ship activated it - by then i was in a different system. (hey! i was new...) _______________________ E pluribus unum
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.24 08:38:00 - [29] Quote: and all pirates exploit - simply by being in the same system as anyone else causes lag and is, therefore, an exploit on their part to gank luvvly people like me. in fact as soon as Jash and his ilk connect to the internet they cause lag and are exploiting. hmmm... in fact every one is causing me lag. you are all gawdam exploiters techincal question... Are mines indiscriminate? ie if whoever deployed them gets too close do they pop - and if not are gang/corp mates immune as well? is it possible to chain their explosions? i never seen any one use mines. my only experience was accidently dropping 1 near a gate and then receiving a SR hit some time later when another ship activated it - by then i was in a different system. (hey! i was new...) We all accept that ships/drones 'cause lag (not so much now as they did before) but mines? The damage they do is not worth the bother and time it takes to deploy them. You'd be better off using cruise missiles to hit your target but, of course, cruise missiles don't cause so much lag Having said that, mines could be used in an effort to prevent your AP warping you away (mines would cause your ship to lose its alignment) so I guess they'll be using that excuse when the GM's come a-callin' LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Dendron	Posted - 2003.10.24 08:43:00 - [30] Edited by: Dendron on 24/10/2003 08:48:23 Edited by: Dendron on 24/10/2003 08:44:23 They do make a nice piece of fireworks (try to blow up 4 or 5 at a time for great visual effects). At the expense of the pirates keep em coming
Jake Solnich	Posted - 2003.10.24 09:23:00 - [31] Edited by: Jake Solnich on 24/10/2003 09:24:55 Just another pointless argument that exploiters will try and defend as fair game. It may very well not be an exploit, but if you use some common sense and look at the situation you will soon see otherwise. Everyone knows this game is far from perfect and it has many issues which could be taken advantage of by a skilled and cunning exploiter. I consider it an exploit anytime somone purposely uses a weakness in the system to gain an unfair advantage against another player. This argument will never end because some people will never agree that using a weakness in the game to gain an unfair advantage is just plain wrong. It may take awhile, but CCP will eventually catch on and maybe do something about this by changing the mechanics of jump-in points so that they are RANDOM and not the SAME damn point almost everytime. *I would rather die a free man than live as a slave.*
Basileus	Posted - 2003.10.24 09:41:00 - [32] Edited by: Basileus on 24/10/2003 09:45:39 T w a t t ing someone is no exploit. Relying on lag to do the job for you is not only very lame, but it is definitly an exploit IMHO. CCP, sort this out will you?
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.24 09:48:00 - [33] There's no actual point arguing the toss about exploits etc because, as a wise man has already stated, it's upto the devs to decide what is. Bug report it and see what happens, is the best advice. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Jessica Logan	Posted - 2003.10.24 10:23:00 - [34] Quote: In Real-life, uu-mans setup minefields all the time in areas they know their enemy travels through often. While it may not be very nice of them, you hardly can call them exploiters. That's funny, because in "real life" mines don't cause lag, fill up someone's vision with "threat windows" and can be removed without setting them off. Although I would expect an "argument" like that from a splinter group of the Gang. Heh.
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2003.10.24 10:26:00 - [35] Carebear definition of exploit: (noun) Any tactic that allows the possibility of their being killed. Pirate definition of exploit: (there is no such word. Please try again.) Dictionary definition of exploit: (verb) make use of, or adapt to the purpose of. Standard definition of exploit in the context of MMORPGs: Any gaming method which makes use of any unintended feature of the game for the gain of the user. Firstly, lag. Lag's an unintended feature of anything, so any tactic which is being used for the purpose of causing lag HAS to be an exploit. But since mines cause damage as well, there's a legitimate reason for laying a minefield as well as an illegitimate one. If it's true that they louse up your ship's ability to warp from a point, via A-P or not, that's two legitimate uses. Secondly, jump-in points in deep space. According to CCP, jump-in points should not be in deep space, so anybody who ever sits at one, anywhere, in order to catch those arriving, is automatically using an exploit; minefield or not, lag or not, fair combat tactics or not. The jump-in point is supposed to be at the gate back to the system you were in before. If that gate's guarded by sentry guns, placing mines ought to get you slaughtered by the guns - who'd automatically take out the mines as well, if they have any sense - and leave you sitting in a pod, looking like an idiot. If the gate is NOT guarded by sentry guns, I don't see any reason why you can't lay a minefield there - provided you are doing so for a legitimate reason, and not to "lag someone out." @ Jash: If you accept the causing-lag purpose behind the minefield, the time taken to lay them is irrelevant, because once in place they'll stay in place practically forever. You could fill a battleship with mines, head to the target area, lay them all, then go back and kit yourself out for combat. If you don't accept the causing-lag purpose, then the whole argument's moot anyway _______ "Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age."
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.24 10:35:00 - [36] Jash Illian when CCP finds some way to improve that lag... tell me do you think they will be using these mines as a strat?? HELL NO and yoU KNOW IT!! so it only means 1 thing... you should know better, it doesnt matter that everyone uses... Ya i want to see how many can's and mining drones and mines will be in space when CCP fixes so that the ship doesnt load until its done loading everyting... you will see that once it doesnt work how they want it to work they will be forced to play the right way of course all these area's are in the grey side... and it sucks that it is that way. I dont know why people bother too much to argue... but people should know about mines creating extra lag though... and nothing else... trying to argue about it being in "CCP's books as an exploit is pointless, because they couldnt enforce players to stop, and its big normal feature that just isnt working like it should. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Lartfor	Posted - 2003.10.24 11:04:00 - [37] Using hundreds of mines to hurt some one = fair play Using hundreds of mines to lag some one = exploit Pure and simple. The fact is that the potential exploiter can just say, im making a mine field to kill not lag. Mines dont need to be more than 30 polies max, that way they wont cause much lag, 100 30 poly mines = 3000 polies, aka not much to render. The fact that they show up on threat indicator kinda destroys the point of mines. Also i think mines should do more dmg. I mean the person has to fly into them...
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.10.24 11:34:00 - [38] WILL YOU NUBS STFU!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!111111111111 J00 ARE GIVING AWAY MY UBAH STRATEGY!111111!!!!!! Mines do little damage. But any IDIOT that says an additional 600-2,000 damage over the course of a battle needs their head examined. I won't tell you how I use and would use mines. I do agree that it would be nice if they were pumped up-perhaps 100 damage a mine, enough to make it hurt realistically but not a case of overpowering. I won't tell you how I'd use mines. I doubt anyone else with half a brain would (Unless you furcovered fools ** them off so much they just give up). But I'll tell you right now-with the current damage, weight, durability (OK, HOWEVER if CCP introduces a limited timespawn for mines (Which thanks to threads like this they probably will eventually) they will become nearly 100% useless), mines are a very potent weapon in the hands of someone who knows how to use them. Maybe they are being used for lag. But any moron who cries "Sploit!" the second they see a fking mine deserves to be shot on sight. And besides, lag is so common in this game (And no, this relates in NO WAY to my previous argument, stfu n00bs, that one still stands), anyone who plays for over three weeks and HASN'T adapted for it (a fair few people by the looks of things) is a complete moron. </rant> TY, come again . _______________________________________________________________________ IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.** 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
Raven DeBlade	Posted - 2003.10.24 13:02:00 - [39] Since Mines dont do any damage at all, thier sole purpose is just 1 maybe 2 a.t.m and its NOT to kill ships exept with lag... get over it. And yes i bet Empires LOVE people putting out huge minefields in Empire Space.... "To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees" "Any statements made above this line are my persona"
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.10.24 13:10:00 - [40] Raven, the purpose of carebears is to be my targets and cannon fodder. Get over it. _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.24 13:11:00 - [41] Quote: @ Jash: If you accept the causing-lag purpose behind the minefield, the time taken to lay them is irrelevant, because once in place they'll stay in place practically forever. You could fill a battleship with mines, head to the target area, lay them all, then go back and kit yourself out for combat. If you don't accept the causing-lag purpose, then the whole argument's moot anyway I don't accept it because the original poster is full of crap and I have serious doubts he ever encountered a mine. I know from experience with having mines used against me that the damn environment causes more lag than they do. I know from playing with mines during beta that launching them is time consuming and requires a lot of effort, which runs quite counter to someone who is by definion looking for the easiest way to make isk. I know from reading the retarded suggestions of how people could launch a ton of mines that the exicitable braindead muppets around here are looking for any means to yell exploit while having no actual flippin experience. So given the lack of evidence and the abundance of stupidity, the argument is moot until there's more evidence and less stupidity. Load up a ship, drop the mines, dock, rearm and setup camp? Obviously not in an area where you expect to have any traffic for an hour. At which point I'd ask why you were there. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.10.24 13:18:00 - [42] Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 24/10/2003 13:19:04 Pssst. Jash. You're forgetting what indies are for . _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.24 13:24:00 - [43] "Load up a ship, drop the mines, dock, rearm and setup camp? " ... Having another corporation member do supply runs with an indy or even battleship if you feel like it... bringing the ammo and/or mines when needed while you camp would do the trick, i figure. It's not like camping is done single-handedly most of the time... o.O
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.10.24 13:31:00 - [44] Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 24/10/2003 13:31:45 What she... ...err, what I said. glares across the galaxy at J0 Ebil. Ahem...the point is, mines=legitimate. They can be a sod to deploy. They can be a sod to use properly in combat. But they work. Anyone disagree? If not, argument cleared. If so, please think before you post. Ty. _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.24 13:33:00 - [45] "What she... ...err, what I said. glares across the galaxy at J0 Ebil." ... Damn you people with the higher level of Fast Writing skill. glares back :s
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.10.24 13:35:00 - [46] Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 24/10/2003 13:36:25 You think you have it hard . I'm sitting here refreshing the forum list every ten seconds waiting for you slow coaches to put your arguments back up . glares back with his ship headlights _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
Raven DeBlade	Posted - 2003.10.24 13:39:00 - [47] Jash Illian.. well i have encounterd Mines at jumpin points so stop your stupid "arguments" if you havent even seen a mine on a postcard, thats your loss, but i assure you stuff exists EVEN if you havent "seen" them. "To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees" "Any statements made above this line are my persona"
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.24 13:46:00 - [48] Quote: "Load up a ship, drop the mines, dock, rearm and setup camp? " ... Having another corporation member do supply runs with an indy or even battleship if you feel like it... bringing the ammo and/or mines when needed while you camp would do the trick, i figure. It's not like camping is done single-handedly most of the time... o.O No j0sephine, it's not done single handed. Odd tho that most pirates you encounter don't have an industrial anywhere nearby tho. Quote: Jash Illian.. well i have encounterd Mines at jumpin points so stop your stupid "arguments" if you havent even seen a mine on a postcard, thats your loss, but i assure you stuff exists EVEN if you havent "seen" them. Good. Now tell me the number of mines at the location, the number of ships, the number of drones, the number of missiles launched (because as an earlier poster lied missiles do cause a good bit of lag). Mines interrupting your ability to warp? I think that's outstanding. Better those than anchoring secure containers at the jump in point . Mines causing lag? Horse**** I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.10.24 13:50:00 - [49] Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 24/10/2003 13:52:47 Pirates don't use indies You mean, "many pirates" . Edit: What Jash said about mines is completely true. Except the "you can't drop 'em fast enough" bit . _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.24 13:55:00 - [50] "No j0sephine, it's not done single handed. Odd tho that most pirates you encounter don't have an industrial anywhere nearby tho." Aye, but most pirates weren't playing with the mines so far i think. And well... ideas how to improve the logistics of pirate operations are about the only thing threads like this are good for ;s
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.24 14:27:00 - [51] Quote: "No j0sephine, it's not done single handed. Odd tho that most pirates you encounter don't have an industrial anywhere nearby tho." Aye, but most pirates weren't playing with the mines so far i think. And well... ideas how to improve the logistics of pirate operations are about the only thing threads like this are good for ;s Of all the crap the original author posted, the single plausible thing given the current game mechanics is: Mines prevented his ship from entering warp. Lag? Horse***. According to the ones that die anything used to kill them* causes lag. Got drones? Lag exploiter. Use more than one ship? Lag exploiter. They died. Tough ***. Get over it or get out of the game. Mines filling the threat box? Unless it's a recent break, mines never appeared in the threat box except when launched. And given what my last threat box looked like, the damn thing is useless anyways. Between my own FoF missiles, the drones attacking me and my attackers it was and always will be quicker to target visually. People on these forums are too easily led by the nose. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.24 14:51:00 - [52] Edited by: drunkenmaster on 24/10/2003 15:01:23 Quote: Since Mines dont do any damage at all, thier sole purpose is just 1 maybe 2 a.t.m and its NOT to kill ships exept with lag... get over it. And yes i bet Empires LOVE people putting out huge minefields in Empire Space.... So why did I see a couple of Blade BS's camping outside an empire station with drones deployed the other night? surely not for lag... look at your own guys before accusing others.. Also, for other people concerned about such exploits: Don't post it in the General Discussion forum, you daft twats. If there is one thing guaranteed to make a tactic more popular, it's posting it somewhere that: - the devs rarely, if ever, read - the pirates often read If you think it is a real exploit, then put in a petition, ffs. Don't post it in here claiming that is 'always effective' or 'unstoppable'.. I really can't believe how some people are allowed on the internet. .
Raven DeBlade	Posted - 2003.10.24 15:14:00 - [53] well Mr Drunken heavy drones are for combat and DO damage, alot more than mines! "To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees" "Any statements made above this line are my persona"
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.24 15:26:00 - [54] But you weren't fighting anyone.. Regardless, half the people on this forum would call you exploiters just for having them out.. And mines do do damage, it may not be a great deal, but is probably more than quite a lot of the available drones (heavies excluded). Saying they do 'no damage' could be misleading for a lot of the people who have never seen them, and base their opinions on other people's opinions, and such. happy camping. .
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.24 15:32:00 - [55] Quote: But you weren't fighting anyone.. Regardless, half the people on this forum would call you exploiters just for having them out.. And mines do do damage, it may not be a great deal, but is probably more than quite a lot of the available drones (heavies excluded). Saying they do 'no damage' could be misleading for a lot of the people who have never seen them, and base their opinions on other people's opinions, and such. happy camping. To go further, if they do prevent a ship from entering warp as they can't align I find that a fitting use given the issues with deploying them and the damage they do. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.24 15:44:00 - [56] Quote: Good. Now tell me the number of mines at the location, the number of ships, the number of drones, the number of missiles launched (because as an earlier poster lied missiles do cause a good bit of lag). Someone smarter than me once said of an opponent "He uses facts like a drunkard uses a lamp-post: for support rather than illumination". Missiles cause very very little lag when in flight. In a recent fight with 7 BS vs 7 BS, one of them was a Raven launching oodles of cruises/torps and I certainly noticed very little lag. In fact, after the battle (which we won having taken down 2 scorps and a raven to no losses of our own) most of us commented on how smooth the battle was considering the number of entities in space. 14 BS, around 18 drones, a jumpgate, 20-30 missiles (most hitting me ), and the vast majority of us playing in windowed. Hardly any lag. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.24 15:47:00 - [57] Quote: No j0sephine, it's not done single handed. Odd tho that most pirates you encounter don't have an industrial anywhere nearby tho. Never heard of pirates fighting on prepared ground? Wouldn't surprise me if people who camp a regular spot have secure cans full of ammo, missiles, mines at a bookmarked safe spot. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.24 15:51:00 - [58] Blah. Who cares what any of us think about exploits. Like drunkenmaster has said many times "GM's decide that". LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Lysithea	Posted - 2003.10.24 15:52:00 - [59] Exploit, not exploit, bug, not bug... the only thing that is clear is that Jash is a real jerk.
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.24 16:16:00 - [60] Quote: Exploit, not exploit, bug, not bug... the only thing that is clear is that Jash is a real jerk. er.. that's not very constructive now, is it? .
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.10.24 18:35:00 - [61] Josh, missiles cause lag. Maybe not a lot, but some atl. How much do you call a lot? Some people may think 1 second is little; in some circumstances to some people that is incredibly bad lag. And SI or no SI, I simply can't allow pirates on the forums encouraging people to be nice to each other. You should be ashamed of yourself drunken. Go scrub the launch tubes until you're ready to come back and say sorry . _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.24 18:39:00 - [62] Quote: Quote: Exploit, not exploit, bug, not bug... the only thing that is clear is that Jash is a real jerk. er.. that's not very constructive now, is it? His purpose isn't to be constructive. His purpose is to attempt to annoy me. Problem is he doesn't understand I don't find roughing a nitwit up a bit annoying. I find it entertaining. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.24 18:42:00 - [63] Quote: Quote: Good. Now tell me the number of mines at the location, the number of ships, the number of drones, the number of missiles launched (because as an earlier poster lied missiles do cause a good bit of lag). Someone smarter than me once said of an opponent "He uses facts like a drunkard uses a lamp-post: for support rather than illumination". Missiles cause very very little lag when in flight. In a recent fight with 7 BS vs 7 BS, one of them was a Raven launching oodles of cruises/torps and I certainly noticed very little lag. In fact, after the battle (which we won having taken down 2 scorps and a raven to no losses of our own) most of us commented on how smooth the battle was considering the number of entities in space. 14 BS, around 18 drones, a jumpgate, 20-30 missiles (most hitting me ), and the vast majority of us playing in windowed. Hardly any lag. Now you see that's hardly the experience I got last night with the 2 Scorps and the Armageddon that took my Tempest. Jumped in just fine. Lit up my hardeners without an issue. Started firing FoF cruise missiles and defenders? Frame rates tank. Sorry, I didn't have time to count the drones and all. But they were present. And as you well know, I turned off my autopilot. Left on, I'd have gotten away clean. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Bobby Wilson	Posted - 2003.10.24 18:55:00 - [64] Quote: In Real-life, uu-mans setup minefields all the time in areas they know their enemy travels through often. While it may not be very nice of them, you hardly can call them exploiters. In real life parachuting into a minefield (closest metaphor to gate jumping I can think of) doesn't leave the trooper standing deaf, blind and dumb for a minute, completely defenseless. No comparison, because LAG doesn't have a RL equivelent, it is an aspect of game mechanics. The problem here isn't mines, it is that CCP STILL hasn't changed the client/server interaction so that one is not announced in the environment until one has loaded it. This would solve all "lag-camping" issues and allow us to engage in real PvP without having to wonder whether someone is using mines, drones or whatever for their combat utility or their lag value. And please, let's be real. It'd take about 300-400 mines (without any activated shield boosters or hardeners) to take down just one Tier 1 BS. Don't pretend this isn't about lag. It's pretty obvious that it is.... Originally by: Selim Cool, congrats. Oh, stupid idea by the way.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.24 21:57:00 - [65] Quote: Quote: Quote: Good. Now tell me the number of mines at the location, the number of ships, the number of drones, the number of missiles launched (because as an earlier poster lied missiles do cause a good bit of lag). Someone smarter than me once said of an opponent "He uses facts like a drunkard uses a lamp-post: for support rather than illumination". Missiles cause very very little lag when in flight. In a recent fight with 7 BS vs 7 BS, one of them was a Raven launching oodles of cruises/torps and I certainly noticed very little lag. In fact, after the battle (which we won having taken down 2 scorps and a raven to no losses of our own) most of us commented on how smooth the battle was considering the number of entities in space. 14 BS, around 18 drones, a jumpgate, 20-30 missiles (most hitting me ), and the vast majority of us playing in windowed. Hardly any lag. Now you see that's hardly the experience I got last night with the 2 Scorps and the Armageddon that took my Tempest. Jumped in just fine. Lit up my hardeners without an issue. Started firing FoF cruise missiles and defenders? Frame rates tank. Sorry, I didn't have time to count the drones and all. But they were present. And as you well know, I turned off my autopilot. Left on, I'd have gotten away clean. Funny how forgetting just one tiny thing can get you killed, huh? I hope I take my battleship loss as well as you did when/if it happens LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Morgana Faile	Posted - 2003.10.24 22:10:00 - [66] Using mines is not an exploit! So is it safe to use them now?
Jelwar Kurbani	Posted - 2003.10.24 22:47:00 - [67] Quote: In real life parachuting into a minefield (closest metaphor to gate jumping I can think of) doesn't leave the trooper standing deaf, blind and dumb for a minute, completely defenseless. No comparison, because LAG doesn't have a RL equivelent, it is an aspect of game mechanics. The problem here isn't mines, it is that CCP STILL hasn't changed the client/server interaction so that one is not announced in the environment until one has loaded it. This would solve all "lag-camping" issues and allow us to engage in real PvP without having to wonder whether someone is using mines, drones or whatever for their combat utility or their lag value. And please, let's be real. It'd take about 300-400 mines (without any activated shield boosters or hardeners) to take down just one Tier 1 BS. Don't pretend this isn't about lag. It's pretty obvious that it is.... Perhaps you yourself have not parachuted into a smegging minefield. I myself cannot say I have either, but soon enough in 3 month's time it WILL be my JOB to do such. If you are dropped in the middle of a heavy laiden minefield, if you're lucky not to land on one before cutting your shute and hoping you're not dragged into a mine or the parachute itself does not set one off, you probbably won't be too eager to move around a lot. And usually a minefeild will be patroled by a detactment of personel, to make sure no one is sneaking around the safe veins. In short, you're screwed because you have no cover, no motion options, and you're too afraid to even sneeze. At the term "lag exploit" is getting rediculously old and bitter. There is a way to justify this kind of lag with mines, or lag itself. It's called combat effectiveness. If you're surround by mines, and other people are shooting you, you're not going to be an effective fighting unit. Your motion is limited, and your attention is divided. You are practically running up Omaha Beach, shovel in hand, with about 4 MG42s getting a bead on you. And don't say "I'm in a ship, mines aren't gonna keep me in one spot!". A ship popping out of practically nowhere into a totally new area is not gonna be immedietly ready to fight a dug in a fortified enemy. The onboard computer has to look around and see what's new, engines have to readjust, sheilds have to recharge from deflecting debris smacking you at enormus velocities, even the human beings inside the ship have to adjust from deacceleration from FTL speeds. Mines decrease combat effectiveness, not just close lanes of movement. That I believe is not only RL justification but RP justification. Jelwar Kurbani, AP Founder WE will be there... The Truth At Any Cost!
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2003.10.25 00:07:00 - [68] I'm surprised myself that we've yet to see FD-MLJ littered with jettisoned livestock. Convert Stations
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.25 02:14:00 - [69] Quote: Josh, missiles cause lag. Maybe not a lot, but some atl. How much do you call a lot? Some people may think 1 second is little; in some circumstances to some people that is incredibly bad lag. And SI or no SI, I simply can't allow pirates on the forums encouraging people to be nice to each other. You should be ashamed of yourself drunken. Go scrub the launch tubes until you're ready to come back and say sorry . Ah maaaan, not the launch tubes again .
PuncherDavis	Posted - 2003.10.25 07:36:00 - [70] You guys are great at pointing fingers and he said she said they said and he is a care bear and he is a brat etc etc. But none of this solves the question about Jump in exploits it only begs it. I just lost my Apoc tonight and with a corp of only 4 people it took a week of about 30 real hard live hours to get it like everybody else. DO i have a problem dieing in EVE nope I have been podded twice and blown up 11 times. I DO THOUGH have a problem with purposley getting 5 people into a jump point and lagggin the **** out of it so that people like me who are on dial up and cannot afford or they do not offer DSL if Cable have no other option but to use Dial up. IN the before definition yes you are exploiting a known weakness in the game loading system to gain UNFAIR advantage. Fight me in a straight up fight heck yeah im for it dead or alive but LAG me to death through no fault of my own is using EVE against me and has nothing to do with anything the game was made to accomplish. I therefor propose this. ALL ships Jumping INTO from a Jump gate/Loggin on?CTD/or loged off are subject to a 5 minute INVULNERABILITY which means I can now log and and see you and make a decision and whoever the guy is has to face me head to head. IN this case I have the option to warp or fight or whatever but I still have that option and IT gives the other guy the same FAIR advantage. Heck you can have 20 people in system with 300 drones and 500 mines at least I can see the enemy and have a chance to make a choice. I think I timed my last death at 28 seconds. Heck that aint enough time to do anything but sigh......
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.10.25 07:59:00 - [71] Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 25/10/2003 10:14:23 All CCP has to do, ironically enough, is make Eve what it's supposed to be- a realistic game. No 10-second jumpin timers. No indestructable items. No ridiculous CONCORD. Player owned (and pwnt!) platforms. System wide scanners. Thousands, if not millions of different modules ranging from scanners to stealth mods to strapping a second fragging hull onto your ship, each one producable by different people at different quality from many different things. The only real problem with Eve then would be the lag. Perhaps CCP has gotten so involved in the complicated arguments that they forget the simplest is often the best? Anyway. Perhaps if everyone reads that we can stop running around like headless chickens wondering exactly what could make Eve work. Besides, we know the sky is falling anyway . _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
Keo Morigan	Posted - 2003.10.25 12:59:00 - [72] Quote: Of course its an exploit, just another way to lag people down... And combat drones is exploiting too... yeah right. If your not a part of the solution, then you'r probably a part of the problem.
Keo Morigan	Posted - 2003.10.25 13:02:00 - [73] Quote: The point is... I suppose mines are like drones was before. For every drone, add 0.5-1 second to the loading time. Same thing about mines. That's at least a minute extra when jumping in, and they know it. Until jump-ins are like they're supposed to be, lagging them down (yes lagging them down, not trying to kill people with mines) is IMHO nothing but lagging people. WOW, where did you got that facts from? Try playing the game before making stupid statements. Please. If your not a part of the solution, then you'r probably a part of the problem.

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