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Izo Azlion
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:52:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Originally by: Tate Iceni
I assume that CCP will put some sort of controls in order to prevent alliances from closing off huge tracts of space to everyone else; but some clarification over the requirments and limitations of gate controls and sentries would be welcome if only to put our minds at rest!
It's called other players fighting back in my opinion... If you dont want allow Alliance to take space, claim it yourself. 
I dont want to claim it. I dont want the logistics nightmares that have to be organised, its already bad enough having to haul ships into Low sec. I want to raid it, run in, get what profit I can, and get out preferably without losing my ship and pod. I expect player resistance. I expect them to shoot at me and try and scan me out. I dont expect to be erased by some Sentry gun.
Nor does a Alliance members alt, perhaps set to Neutral hauling stuff down.
Also, this could cut off alliances that are not next to Empire... interesting thought.
Izo Azlion.
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:54:00 -
[32]
This won't apply to ALL 0.0, stop being so melodramatic.
It will only apply to a few select consellations, where there are 3 player-built outposts and the necessary infrastructure to maintain constellation sovereignty.
Or are you saying that after investing 100bn ISK in a constellation, that an Alliance has no right to build a little sentry gun on a gate? The reality is, they have earnt it, and will be paying a multi-billion ISK monthly fuel bill to maintain it.
It simply isnt realistic to say that an Alliance who has developed a constellation to that extent should be unable to build static defences. Of COURSE they should. Did pirates of the high seas hold up ships outside fortified ports? No. Did they intercept ships on the trade lanes? Yes. As you will do.
Adapt and thrive.
--------
On vacation from ISSN |
xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:55:00 -
[33]
Yep so basicly there should be no other tpye of pvp bt blob warfare.It's either taking away space or nothing!
---
CCP how about the pith X & A mods?
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries
Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:55:00 -
[34]
If ANYTHING, this is going to make EVE less static, as chokepoints will start to be claimed it seems. Therefore, your going to have the map redrawn as Alliances go to war fighting over the entrances into 0.0 and all. I don't see where your arguments are.
--
Originally by: Ghosthowl
At what level can i PVP?
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Izo Azlion
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:55:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Izo Azlion on 27/09/2006 20:56:32
Originally by: Butter Dog
Did pirates of the high seas hold up ships outside fortified ports? No.
Yes.
Edward "Blackbeard" Teach.
Edit:
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
Originally by: Izo Azlion
Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Originally by: Tate Iceni
I assume that CCP will put some sort of controls in order to prevent alliances from closing off huge tracts of space to everyone else; but some clarification over the requirments and limitations of gate controls and sentries would be welcome if only to put our minds at rest!
It's called other players fighting back in my opinion... If you dont want allow Alliance to take space, claim it yourself.
I dont want to claim it. I dont want the logistics nightmares that have to be organised, its already bad enough having to haul ships into Low sec. I want to raid it, run in, get what profit I can, and get out preferably without losing my ship and pod. I expect player resistance. I expect them to shoot at me and try and scan me out. I dont expect to be erased by some Sentry gun.
Nor does a Alliance members alt, perhaps set to Neutral hauling stuff down.
Also, this could cut off alliances that are not next to Empire... interesting thought.
no, here's what happens.
defending alliance is in the system, ratting, mining, whatever.
'pirate' in stabbed ship comes in, flys out and nails a ratting raven. then the 'pirate' safespots.
if you lock the system down with bubbles, the 'pirate' logs off, or jumps safespot to safespot for aggro to go and then logs. with WCS fitted and jumping around SS's scanning out does nothing, especially when they log.
or, they just insta out and leave, leading to a 10 jump chase which is boring as hell.
90% of 'pirate' incursions they don't get anything but a killmail. it's sad, actually.
Thats them. Not us. I cant tell all the pirates in the universe to not fit stabs, but I assure you thats not us.
That said, I understand your worry there, but how would sentries in 0.0 change any of that anyway?
Izo Azlion.
---
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Vincent Gaines
The Praxis Initiative
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:55:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Izo Azlion
Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Originally by: Tate Iceni
I assume that CCP will put some sort of controls in order to prevent alliances from closing off huge tracts of space to everyone else; but some clarification over the requirments and limitations of gate controls and sentries would be welcome if only to put our minds at rest!
It's called other players fighting back in my opinion... If you dont want allow Alliance to take space, claim it yourself.
I dont want to claim it. I dont want the logistics nightmares that have to be organised, its already bad enough having to haul ships into Low sec. I want to raid it, run in, get what profit I can, and get out preferably without losing my ship and pod. I expect player resistance. I expect them to shoot at me and try and scan me out. I dont expect to be erased by some Sentry gun.
Nor does a Alliance members alt, perhaps set to Neutral hauling stuff down.
Also, this could cut off alliances that are not next to Empire... interesting thought.
no, here's what happens.
defending alliance is in the system, ratting, mining, whatever.
'pirate' in stabbed ship comes in, flys out and nails a ratting raven. then the 'pirate' safespots.
if you lock the system down with bubbles, the 'pirate' logs off, or jumps safespot to safespot for aggro to go and then logs. with WCS fitted and jumping around SS's scanning out does nothing, especially when they log.
or, they just insta out and leave, leading to a 10 jump chase which is boring as hell.
90% of 'pirate' incursions they don't get anything but a killmail. it's sad, actually.
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Vincent Gaines
The Praxis Initiative
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:56:00 -
[37]
Originally by: xeom
Yep so basicly there should be no other tpye of pvp bt blob warfare.It's either taking away space or nothing!
ganking a single ship and running away isn't warfare
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Ozawi
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:56:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Originally by: Ozawi
Just curious - this is for the players complaining about pirates popping a freighter then leaving:
*Maybe send a combat escort with your cargo haulers?
Am I missing something obvious?
Did you even read?
Sure. I read a lot of speculation and "probablies".
And still have yet to see how pirates logging out is any different than anyone else logging out. That's a separate issue that has nothing to do with sentries, and really does need a serious look-through and resolution. Just not static defenses.
------------------------------------------------
This sig is mine. There are others like it, but this one is mine alone. Mods keep out, or I will drop trou and sprinkle some tinkle in your Cheerios!
-I don't eat Cheerios. -ReverendM |
Izo Azlion
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:57:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
Originally by: xeom
Yep so basicly there should be no other tpye of pvp bt blob warfare.It's either taking away space or nothing!
ganking a single ship and running away isn't warfare
Having node drops isnt either, though...
There has to be a happy medium somewhere :/
Izo Azlion.
---
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Laocoon
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:58:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Izo Azlion
Edited by: Izo Azlion on 27/09/2006 20:56:32
Originally by: Butter Dog
Did pirates of the high seas hold up ships outside fortified ports? No.
Yes.
Edward "Blackbeard" Teach.
that programme would come in handy somewhere 
- Lao
Veto. Corp |
Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:58:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Ishquar Teh''Sainte on 27/09/2006 21:04:45
Originally by: Kaiu
EG. Outpost system XYZ, your inty gang warps to the XYZ gate, NO sentries there... you jump into XYZ, couple of secs the gates start targetting you...
You are saying that you cannot warp away once in system to avoid these sentries..?
uhm .. but the interceptors want to leave sometime?? so either you have instas or you'll likely loose ships of your gang - without other players shooting you
@ISS guys: i always grabbed the loot what was worth something when i visited you in tenerifis  .. and all i used was a taranis 
___________________
-Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:59:00 -
[42]
Originally by: xeom
Yep so basicly there should be no other tpye of pvp bt blob warfare.It's either taking away space or nothing!
No, its called 'use your brain'. No more blindly walking into an Alliances space with a couple of Stababonds thinking you are invincible because you can (and will) just log off if things look unfavourable.
Use the map. Think about their travel routes. Go to areas without constellation sov... its really not difficult when you think about it.
--------
On vacation from ISSN |
Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries
Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:59:00 -
[43]
I don't understand how you "pirates" are not understanding exactly how much damn isk goes into developing a constellation to be able to do something like this. Your so cowardly your already complaining about things that have yet to happen! Nothing we say here is going to effect CCP at all, I'm going to dinner, argue to your hearts content.
/me fits WCS and flees the argument, unscathed.
--
Originally by: Ghosthowl
At what level can i PVP?
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:59:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
Originally by: xeom
Yep so basicly there should be no other tpye of pvp bt blob warfare.It's either taking away space or nothing!
ganking a single ship and running away isn't warfare
Thats exactly whats going to happen with sentrys.Huge pirate blobs of 10+ of just ganking you sh** and runing.Looking foward to thate eh?
Personal i like small 1v1 and small scale warfare.
---
CCP how about the pith X & A mods?
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Izo Azlion
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:01:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Marcus Druallis
I don't understand how you "pirates" are not understanding exactly how much damn isk goes into developing a constellation to be able to do something like this. Your so cowardly your already complaining about things that have yet to happen! Nothing we say here is going to effect CCP at all, I'm going to dinner, argue to your hearts content.
/me fits WCS and flees the argument, unscathed.
We are Pirates. We dont fight fair, and we dont care how much ISK we destroy.
But you will not say we are cowards.
Have a nice dinner.
Izo Azlion.
---
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:01:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: xeom
Yep so basicly there should be no other tpye of pvp bt blob warfare.It's either taking away space or nothing!
No, its called 'use your brain'. No more blindly walking into an Alliances space with a couple of Stababonds thinking you are invincible because you can (and will) just log off if things look unfavourable.
Use the map. Think about their travel routes. Go to areas without constellation sov... its really not difficult when you think about it.
I don't use stabs or log out corp rules im more then happy to have ;)
Why would anybody be in the out lying systems when you can be in the one with defences?
---
CCP how about the pith X & A mods?
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Laocoon
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:01:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Butter Dog
No, its called 'use your brain'. No more blindly walking into an Alliances space with a couple of Stababonds thinking you are invincible because you can (and will) just log off if things look unfavourable.
Assume you != veto here 
- Lao
Veto. Corp |
Vincent Gaines
The Praxis Initiative
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:02:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Izo Azlion
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
Originally by: xeom
Yep so basicly there should be no other tpye of pvp bt blob warfare.It's either taking away space or nothing!
ganking a single ship and running away isn't warfare
Having node drops isnt either, though...
There has to be a happy medium somewhere :/
I agree.. don't get me wrong, I'm not referring to Veto.
I'm referring to other corps that roam around in stabbed ships and log whenever they get into a bind, which is frustrating because it's an i-win button for 'pirates'
I feel there should be a balance between blob warfare and complete vulnerability.
right now you can't lock down your own system, you can't even place guns outside an outpost. a gank squad of 10 comes in, warps to undock point, drops a dictor bubble, and anyone inside the station now has to stay there or become cannon fodder because of the undock process.
bubbles take forever to set up, and even then a MWD'ng stabbed vagabond can just MWD out and to the gate. and you can't catch them because an inty will die to it, and anythign else is too slow.
there needs to be a middle ground, and to be honest if an alliance spends 40-50bil ISK developing a constellation, they should be able to erect some defenses... right now there is NOTHING to defend the outpost except for POS spamming (which as you know is lame) and catching the system at a low point.
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Vincent Gaines
The Praxis Initiative
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:03:00 -
[49]
Originally by: xeom
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
Originally by: xeom
Yep so basicly there should be no other tpye of pvp bt blob warfare.It's either taking away space or nothing!
ganking a single ship and running away isn't warfare
Thats exactly whats going to happen with sentrys.Huge pirate blobs of 10+ of just ganking you sh** and runing.Looking foward to thate eh?
Personal i like small 1v1 and small scale warfare.
a stabbond vs a mining barge is not 1v1 either.
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:04:00 -
[50]
I'd be more then happy to pay a few billion for something that doesn't let sentrys attack me!
Sence its all about how much isk you have!
---
CCP how about the pith X & A mods?
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:06:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
Originally by: xeom
a stabbond vs a mining barge is not 1v1 either.
BTW the last month ive been flying a claw with no stabs.And engaging NPCing battleships all kinds domis geddons raven.Guess how many had stabs and warped vs just 1 claw?
Yep we here at veto are clearly the cowards.
---
CCP how about the pith X & A mods?
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Vincent Gaines
The Praxis Initiative
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:06:00 -
[52]
Originally by: xeom
I'd be more then happy to pay a few billion for something that doesn't let sentrys attack me!
Sence its all about how much isk you have!
it's about the number of people that work together to accomplish something.
There is no reason why you can't place sentries outside your own station.
who in thier right mind would build a fort or outpost only to leave it unarmed? That's insane. 
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:13:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
I love going on roaming gangs looking for trouble also... but this is about station defense
I think we agree on things but see the reason as different. I don't want to go into hostile space in my crow and get popped by sentries either, especially if they do it in a pipe system. But on the other hand, there are cheap gank tricks used against outpost held systems that leave the outpost holder with no way to counter.
I think its fine if i wan't to warp to a ISS station in lets say a tempest and hope some one pops out and fights.They can choose to defend it,but in truth i can't even really attack it.
---
CCP how about the pith X & A mods?
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Izo Azlion
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:14:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
Originally by: xeom
BTW the last month ive been flying a claw with no stabs.And engaging NPCing battleships all kinds domis geddons raven.Guess how many had stabs and warped vs just 1 claw?
Yep we here at veto are clearly the cowards.
some run 1 WCS on a ratting ship so they can chain spawns.
our corp has a no WCS policy except for travel.. and even then most don't use it.
and again, read my posts- I've never came across a stabbed veto pilot, I'm referring to other 'pirates.'
however my point stands, 3 vagabonds should not be able to lock down a system just because they use stabs and nanos and run away or log.
Noted, and I appriciate your recognition of this. I do of course realise that many Pirates do gank and log, and thus they are not pirates, merely gankers...
Theres a fine line between what we do and what others do, but it is there, and we - being Pirates - strongly believe in it, which is why we sometimes post quite strongly.
We dont mean any harm by what we say.
Back to topic, What scared us was every system in alliance space having 2 sentry guns per gate, plus their alliance defending ships. Its all to come, and we cant tell CCP what to do, but you (Being everyone that isnt a Pirate, in particular, or jus random neutrals) can surely see why we worry.
We're already restricted from High sec... Be a bit bad to be restricted from 0.0 too!
Izo Azlion.
---
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Ukucia
Gallente
The Older Gamers
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:14:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Izo Azlion
We are Pirates. We dont fight fair, and we dont care how much ISK we destroy.
But you will not say we are cowards.
Have a nice dinner.
For every "honorable" pirate, there are 4 metric craploads of "dishonorable" pirates. The problem here isn't the alliances. It's the pansies that pretend to be pirates. If you'd like to complain, you should direct your ire against the pansy pirates.
----
WTB Forum Sig. Please Evemail if you'd like to sell one. |
Vincent Gaines
The Praxis Initiative
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:22:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Izo Azlion
Noted, and I appriciate your recognition of this. I do of course realise that many Pirates do gank and log, and thus they are not pirates, merely gankers...
Theres a fine line between what we do and what others do, but it is there, and we - being Pirates - strongly believe in it, which is why we sometimes post quite strongly.
We dont mean any harm by what we say.
Back to topic, What scared us was every system in alliance space having 2 sentry guns per gate, plus their alliance defending ships. Its all to come, and we cant tell CCP what to do, but you (Being everyone that isnt a Pirate, in particular, or jus random neutrals) can surely see why we worry.
We're already restricted from High sec... Be a bit bad to be restricted from 0.0 too!
I see what you're saying, with that I suppose defenses will be limited, they might not even be that powerful.. if they start locking out gates and such, then I agree it's going too far.
I'm sure there will be a compromise allowing us to defend a system from cheap gankers, while also making it so we'd still have to fight to hold it.
as to the Tempest comment above, it's all fine, but how about sniping tempests 200km from the undock point? what's the point of that? as soon as something comes out that's not a hauler or frigate, the Tempest pilot warps away and logs or runs to one of many safespots... in fact he's usually aligned and at full speed anyway.
blobbing sucks, but so does 'guerilla' tactics that are just lame.
You and your corp has every right to be worried since you have no territorial asperations and fight as a pirate would... not always fair, but honorable (ok as honorable as a pirate can be :)) however for those other corps that gank and run, I hold no sympathy.
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Arestes
TunDraGon
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:23:00 -
[57]
I would say that the arguments here have sofar not been for sentryguns, but against logging off. I would love to see ships being truely persistent, ie. they stay in space after you log off indefinately.
- Arestes
XpoHoc > and i also found out, that it doesnt matter what you do and what you archieve... you end up talking to yourself |
Kiriz Zule
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:28:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
Originally by: xeom
BTW the last month ive been flying a claw with no stabs.And engaging NPCing battleships all kinds domis geddons raven.Guess how many had stabs and warped vs just 1 claw?
Yep we here at veto are clearly the cowards.
some run 1 WCS on a ratting ship so they can chain spawns.
our corp has a no WCS policy except for travel.. and even then most don't use it.
and again, read my posts- I've never came across a stabbed veto pilot, I'm referring to other 'pirates.'
however my point stands, 3 vagabonds should not be able to lock down a system just because they use stabs and nanos and run away or log.
My counter point would be...
Any alliance that cannot deal with 3 vagabonds should not be able to throw isk at the problem via AI sentry guns with hopes that it will go away. Which, by the way in the case of 3 vagas, it won't cause vagas will be fast enough to avoid the sents anyways so you will still be in docknloglockdown when they enter the system.
The problem you describe is not about sentries or cowardly pirates at all.. It's about poor organization, lethargic play and the alliance mentality of everyone npc and get rich while no one defends. What you really need is an automatic sensor beacon for your alliance setup completely surrounding your space that puts out an alliance wide broadcast similar to the following.
/eve chick voice on
Greetings MegaAlliance
There are 3 cowardly vagabonds approaching. They entered from gate a and exited thru gate b. Outpost system C is their likley destination. I suggest you put a dictor bubble on gate d and get some people with scrams and webs to lock them down and kill them when they jump in.
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Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:30:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Izo Azlion
Noted, and I appriciate your recognition of this. I do of course realise that many Pirates do gank and log, and thus they are not pirates, merely gankers...
Theres a fine line between what we do and what others do, but it is there, and we - being Pirates - strongly believe in it, which is why we sometimes post quite strongly.
We dont mean any harm by what we say.
Back to topic, What scared us was every system in alliance space having 2 sentry guns per gate, plus their alliance defending ships. Its all to come, and we cant tell CCP what to do, but you (Being everyone that isnt a Pirate, in particular, or jus random neutrals) can surely see why we worry.
We're already restricted from High sec... Be a bit bad to be restricted from 0.0 too!
Let me first say... I have no experiance with you guys in game, so I choose now to take you at your word that you are indeed "pirates" and not lamer gankers.
I agree with you in full that static defense should not stop pirate incursions. (nor other small scale incursions) But I disagree that sentry guns at gates would have this affect. It would simply stop you from camping that gate. Which is just fine by me.
Combined with much better system scanning. I don't see why this will even be a problem. (presuming that with the new scanning, we get better "warp to" options for items found on the scanner)
Personally though, I don't want sentries at gates. I'd rather see them at stations.
But as I said before, they don't need to be uber to do the job they are there for. They just need to keep hostiles from camping gates. They should not be able to break an enemy fleet though. Thats just rediculas.
___________________________________________
The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain.
___________________________________________
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Coran Ordus
Ominous Corp
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:34:00 -
[60]
I think the sentry guns should lean towards the expensive/fragile side. (A bit, don't want to make them totally useless.) The idea being that an alliance would put some up in key/home systems that are busy, so that the guns would provide them an edge in holding them and keeping them secure. But the cost/destructability would deter them from being just tossed around everywhere.
So yes, pirates would have a harder time slipping into main systems, but roving around and/or ganking travellers would be mostly unaffected.
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