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Mhostly Harmless Cheers Restaurant and Bar	Posted - 2006.09.29 07:13:00 - [1] Edited by: Mhostly Harmless on 29/09/2006 07:14:11 Yes, I am a noob. I dont have alot of skill points. I'm not in a 0.0 alliance. I am not uber. And I'm sure those of you who are will make fun of this post. My character was created near the end of 2004. I played eve with some real life friends and stayed in the noob corp. We all eventualy quit over an aparent lack of things to do as a group (that arent pvp. we dont want to be pirates.) Jump forward to new year 2006. One of those friends calls me up and says that we should try eve again, because he read about complexes and thought it might be kinda like dungeons. Somthing the four of us could do together. So we all pile on in again. I've got a vexor. We're all in cruisers, we all suck. We get our first battleships pretty slowly, including some ventures to lowsec for ore and missions. We made 20m isk in one day once, and thought that was cool. Spend more time in lowsec. Soon after we get our battleships we lose one guy. Then annother. Now its just two of us. We do missions together. Domi and Raven. We joined ORC, and thru them NORAD. we did some stuff in 0.0, not much. Outer ring kinda sucked. We had more fun in placid. Basicly just did missions, and only fought pirates if they presented a threat to the area. Anyway, by march we decide that we should set a new goal because we're gettin pretty good at the battleships. He pilots a raven, so he sets his sights on a caldari navy raven. I use a domi. There are no faction domis. There are no drone upgrades. Oh wait, whats this? Moros is a huge domi! a newer, bigger, cooler looking domi! We save alot of isk and while he's skilling missiles and such i'm grinding thru ship command skills. Did I mention our chars suck? I got a base per and wil of 5. Sure thats 18 after learnings and implants, but meh. During this time, ORC leaves NORAD, joins NFC, there some politics there. Whatever, 0.0 was boring. Mine mine mine, rat rat rat. Feh. Missions are kind of cool, a little story to go with the rats. So we pretty much stay in placid. June 20th patch hits and missions go weird for awhile. My compatriot just quits logging in. He was angry about the abrubt change with no word on what or why. Even though the mess made on june 20th was eventualy corrected, he just didnt care anymore so thats that. End of july I finaly meet the skill reqs for the moros. I've had one in the hangar in covryn for a month or so by this point. Two and a Half billion isk. Plus skills. Basicly all the money I made since March. Had lost a domi during this time, but aside from the 150m or so spent replacing that ship, all my money flowed into this project. I spent FIVE MONTHS. Training to this ship. Because it is the only real upgrade to my domi. And boy was it cool. All those missions I had to avoid now that my partner had quit? I could do em again. Worlds Collide? Sure! All the old encounter missions are gone for good now, but it doesnt matter I got the moros and can handle them all. Well, I could. Till the other day. When I log in before work and find out that overnight the developers have decided that moros is too good to be doing missions. One night and my five months is basicly wasted. Yeah yeah I got BS V out of it. True. But I'm back to the domi. and I've got nothing to look forward to. And yeah, yeah, I could seige POS or whatever. if I joined a pvp alliance. if I wanted to play that way. I've run the numbers. Domi is a good ship. It could fit a gist tank and actualy get realy realy good. Better than an armor tank even. If I sold the moros and bought faction / officer gear, i'm sure I could keep doing all the missions. If I retrained to use a raven, I could probably do them about as fast. But I like being a drone user. I like missions. I'm a lame carebear. And I feel cheated to have all this effort erased overnight with basicly no warning whatsoever. At least if pirates blew up my moros I could fight back and it would be my fault if I lost. I cant fight the devs. No recourse. Poof. Months of work. Gone.
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.29 07:20:00 - [2] I honestly feel sorry for you. I think it's **ty that CCP has been lax in putting Cap ships in their proper place. And barring them from places that CCP didn't want them to go. I think it's crappy that after all this time and all those missions many people now feel totally screwed out of their favored part of the game. It's bull**. But then again, so is using a carrier in a mission to grind isk for... for... wait, WTF is the isk for anyway? ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.09.29 07:24:00 - [3] if you quit, can I have your moros please? on a serious note, this is the first time i've understood what you mission running types are actually sorry about. As far as what you want from EvE is concerned, battleships are the glass sealing. It's sad however, as what you want from the game is only a small portion of what it offers . One thing I started to do with missions when I did them is attempting them in less able ships, eg, lvl 2's/3's in rifters and lvl 4's in a brutix, it's fun and can be extremely satisfying even though you may not be getting the LP/ISK per hour you'd be used to... which shouldn't matter should it, if you do missions because you enjoy them.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.29 07:27:00 - [4] Sadly you're missing something very important. That being, you have, and can fly, a Moros. You're quite useful to some people now, and you can always just go vaporize belt rats if you really need to npc in a capital ship. If you were using a Domi already, I can't see how it took 5 months to get to the moros. Ok BS V is a month, capship command is another month(?). If you spent those three months on engineering and mechanic-type skills, you probably needed them. Ofcourse, if you rush for something, you'll take awhile to get it, however if you're already skilled well with a battleship, dreads don't take too long to get. I think it'd take me 3 months to get into a dread, able to use cap shield boosters and seige mode. It'd be a good bit less if I didn't care about seigemode or having a real tank. Keep the moros, put iut to other use. Sit at a low-sec high-grade COSMOS area with sentry drones and obliterate the mission-runners who go their in their nice faction-fitted ships? Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Savio Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.09.29 07:43:00 - [5] As i recall the capital ship was never intended to do missions/complex dident the dev also say that? why not try to find somethign else to do than isk grind? find a purpos in eve life :) . Need a Sign? Click Here
Maria Ravenwind Gallente Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:02:00 - [6] I hear what you're saying, and understand what you're feeling. But I do not feel sorry for you. You simply cannot compare a Faction Battleship to a Capital Class POS sieging War Machine. The ship was designed to destroy Player Owned Stations, not farm isk in lvl 4 missions. There are literally thousands of people that run lvl 4 missions solo. There are even more thousands of people that go out, join a good corp, meet some friends that live on the other side of the world, and run lvl 4 missions together. I guess you'll just have to learn how to play the game like everyone else, without and I WIN button. Go insure your Moros, take it out and blow it up. The insurance will pay for you to fit a few Faction/Officer Module fitted Domis. That should almost be the same thing. I hate my Exclamation mark! I Am No Alt.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:09:00 - [7] this is not the game you are looking for. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:20:00 - [8] You skilled for months to get a carrier to PvE in it and you think CCP are the ones at fault? ---------- Nerf Caldaro!
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:22:00 - [9] Boo ***** hoo suck it up and adapt. Originally by:** Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
spurious signal Caldari Brainiacs	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:31:00 - [10] First of all well done to the OP for posting this without coming across like a whiny child, unlike most of the other people who've started threads about this carrier fix. Secondly, as others have said in this thread, your training time and obtaining of a carrier haven't been wasted - you still have the carrier, you can still fly one. You are potentially a valuable asset to any decent corp wanting to carve out or defend its own space in 0.0. Maybe you and your corp mates could consider adapting to a new type of existence in EVE - instead of making your money ratting or doing missions you could join an alliance and become part of their activities maybe? Or you could set yourselves a new goal - how about renting a moon from the ISS in E3-P8R and build yourselves a POS and use your carrier to help defend it if needed? There's a million ways to enjoy yourselves in EVE and I don't think mission running in a capital ship is one of the best ones
Fujiko MaXjolt	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:47:00 - [11] I can sympathize with you totally, dude. Back before the drone boost/redo/nerf/whatever, i had my eye set on a moros as an uber mining-boat for low-sec/0.0 - sadly, CCP decided that it shouldn't get a mining-amount bonus for the drones, and my goal was moot This isn't the first time, nor do i think it will be the last time, that CCP has removed unforeseen gameplay. Gameplay that doesn't harm anyone, but makes life in eve sweet for the people who discover it and think it's cool The Devs are just PvP-combat lubbers, and try to steer the the game towards everyone being forced into doing it, like it or not. And to all the 0.0/lowsec-nutters that are gonna say OMGZ!!1! mining in a dread, you nub! : We make the game fun for ourselves, you just have a different outlook than me
spurious signal Caldari Brainiacs	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Fujiko MaXjolt Gameplay that doesn't harm anyone Wrong. EVE is about risk vs reward. More risk = more reward. Mission running in capital ships = high reward, no risk. This breaks EVE, it undermines the economy and it makes a mockery of the mission system. And no, I'm not a "0.0 nutter", I'm a semi-carebear, but I can clearly see how allowing people to mission run in capital ships is wrong. I congratulated the OP on not sounding like a whiny child, but you've just added the required "whiny child" dose to complete this thread.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:59:00 - [13] I can appreciate that effort gone into training capitals for missions feels like a kick in the teeth. I'd probably feel a little sore one I'd just finished raven, tech 2 torps, etc. they told me they had the same limits. However please don't feel your training is useless. Carriers and Dreads, in the right situation are extremely valuable. I'd certainly be keen to talk to capital pilots about operations down in 0.0. It's not agenteering, but trust me, it's way more fun. And probably even safer than 0.1-0.4, as 0.0 tends to be. So please, put a post up on our forums, if you're intersted in other ways to gainfully employ your skill training. The same goes for any other newly thwarted carrier pilots out there.
Ruffio Sepico Minmatar Hidden Agenda	Posted - 2006.09.29 09:18:00 - [14] Originally by: spurious signal Originally by: Fujiko MaXjolt Gameplay that doesn't harm anyone Wrong. EVE is about risk vs reward. More risk = more reward. Mission running in capital ships = high reward, no risk. This breaks EVE, it undermines the economy and it makes a mockery of the mission system. And no, I'm not a "0.0 nutter", I'm a semi-carebear, but I can clearly see how allowing people to mission run in capital ships is wrong. I congratulated the OP on not sounding like a whiny child, but you've just added the required "whiny child" dose to complete this thread. Can only use capital ships in low sec and 0.0. Doing missions in low sec or 0.0 make the risk of doing these missions way higher. Its not the missions you have to worry to much about, its the players. There is already quite a few capital ships that been found "carebearing" and blown up. A handfull people can blow up a carrier/dread if they know what they are doing, and there is many who does. How many of you who flame this guy take the same risk as he do? Do you fly around in low sec doing missions in ship and fitting worth billions? Have you noticed the speed and agility of these ships? Its not like someone can RACE through missions with the. What they give is a false sense of security at most due to their better tanking ability. As for CCP claiming capital ships should be used as flagships in fleet battles and such. Sorry but Nelson didnt have 20 something HMS Victory's at Trafalgar either. Should only 2 capital ships be allowed into one grid at at a time to push it into that role? There is a difference between missions/deadpsace and complex in earning capacity. If they cant be allowed into complex's fine, but not allow them for missions is bad imho. I hardly do any missions myself, but I can see the point of view of those who do them. People doing missions is probably the crowd in EVE that been hit hardest by nerfbats. Oh and please before someone start rant about lvl 4's isnt meant to be done solo; Originally by: Zrakor There are a few misconceptions here. First of all, the level 4 missions aren't intended for a group. At first we planned having them group oriented (during the earlier stages of exodus) but we quickly realized that this would be a mistake, as it was too much of a jump from level 3 missions and the neccessary features couldn't make it in. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=157329&page=3 This was like one and a half year ago. Since then missions become harder, rewards less, CCP urges players to spread out, go to low sec, 0.0 etc. They introduce new toys and some make use of them to venture into these parts of the game. Then long time afterwards CCP says it wasnt intended to do so and so with them. That start to be a long tradition with CCP, to introduce things and then start throw the nerfbats around when player start use it the way they feel like and not the way CCP want them to. Oh and risk free ISK? Please stop GTC sales if that should be the punch line. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Steven Dynahir Gallente Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj	Posted - 2006.09.29 10:38:00 - [15] Originally by: Maria Ravenwind The ship was designed to destroy Player Owned Stations, not farm isk in lvl 4 missions. Yes, and SMS was designed to send messaged to control things like heating and stuff, not to farm isk from people sending them between mobile phones. Ok, so it was wasted design which users put it to better use. If CCP wants to blow up POS'ses, fine. But if users want to use it for other purposes, then allow them. --- Sell orders Recruitment
Jastra Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.29 10:51:00 - [16] I'm not sure flying a Moros qualifies you as a noob :) There are lots of fine and friendly anti pirate corps in Placid, as well as the pirate ones, lots of fun people hanging out there. Seriously, you're valuable to a corp now, I'm sure Coreli would like you on-board if you change your mind about pirating The other posters are mostly right though, doing missions in such a huge ship would have got very old eventually, the none-fixed content is where this game excels.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.09.29 11:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Steven Dynahir Originally by: Maria Ravenwind The ship was designed to destroy Player Owned Stations, not farm isk in lvl 4 missions. Yes, and SMS was designed to send messaged to control things like heating and stuff, not to farm isk from people sending them between mobile phones. Ok, so it was wasted design which users put it to better use. If CCP wants to blow up POS'ses, fine. But if users want to use it for other purposes, then allow them. Perfect example. Better use?!? The way the kids use SMS nowadays is as usefull like a hole in the head. Besides for running into debt at speed of light. Lvl 4 missions are too profitable as they are. Don't need capital ships doing them even faster.... --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Ruffio Sepico Minmatar Hidden Agenda	Posted - 2006.09.29 11:22:00 - [18] Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Steven Dynahir Originally by: Maria Ravenwind The ship was designed to destroy Player Owned Stations, not farm isk in lvl 4 missions. Yes, and SMS was designed to send messaged to control things like heating and stuff, not to farm isk from people sending them between mobile phones. Ok, so it was wasted design which users put it to better use. If CCP wants to blow up POS'ses, fine. But if users want to use it for other purposes, then allow them. Perfect example. Better use?!? The way the kids use SMS nowadays is as usefull like a hole in the head. Besides for running into debt at speed of light. Lvl 4 missions are too profitable as they are. Don't need capital ships doing them even faster.... Consider the speed and agility of them, you can probably do it faster in a Command ship. Or doesnt travel time to move around count for any? All missions doesnt happen in system either, which also would need you to make a jump, which also cost fuel that other ships doesnt have to worry about. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Rutoo Gallente Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.09.29 11:31:00 - [19] Training 5 months for a Moros? I'll trade you, i'm just finishing my training for naglfar which i started at least 7-8 months ago (training other skillz too) _________________________________________________________ My First EvE Video Club Seals Not Sandwichs
Ares Helix Gallente NunyaBizzness Omega Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:00:00 - [20] I agree with the feeling and sentiment, but most of all resoning behind the original, and subsequent supporting posts. I think the most level headed comment was for banning cap ships from Complexes, Yet allowing them to run missions. I think that would be an acceptable compromise. EVE is a game universe touted with 'No Holds Barred' For example, You can go and engage in PVP by attacking someone in a belt, or by ganking someone on system entry. No law against it. You can advertise a moros on escrow for a billion isk, only to sell that person a unit of tritanium. In a game universe as diverse as EVE is, why create a blanket rule like this before addressing more serious issues? The patch stated it would address server lag issues, not limit the gameplay of people who don't actively engage in PVP. I find PVP isn't to my liking, simply because I view the game as a social way to pass time and I enjoy the company of those I run missions with. Does this mean I should have my pilot's career options limited? For those saying yes at this point, go back to waiting for your next victim to jump in system. To those who can see the valid logic behind my argument, let us see how many of us it takes to stop playing before ccp get the idea. They made ME a General? What were all the 5 year old sissy girls busy? o_0 ... How'd he know!?!
Ilmonstre Minmatar 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:19:00 - [21] Originally by: Epsilon 1 Boo ******* hoo suck it up and adapt. please do not replyn if this is all you have to say. but i have to semi agree with the OP if they would just introduce a faction domi this wouldnt have happened so he is basicly screwed if he wants a nice pimped out ship to play with since there is no drone faction ship
Caerleus Board of Twenty	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:19:00 - [22] I honestly can't understad why anyone would find pleasure in running level 4 missions in a dread or a carrier. They are easy enough in a solo Raven. I only turn down two missions, Enemies Abound part 5 and Worlds Collide (Blood+Angels) as these two have insane DPS and I have no desire to spend huge amounts of money on a faction setup to allow me to do these. Some missions still remain a little challenge, requiring bouncing of shields and cap to complete without getting in to armor, but that provides for some entertainment from them. Running missions in capital ship must be the easiest way to boredom around. It simply was a means to an end. As for you now feeling as tho , you have wasted your training, I put it to you that its not the training youve wasted, but the application of it. Capital ships are PVP ships and should be used as such. And, PVP isnt 'just' about piracy. There are many avenues that you can go down in PVP and still remain a non pirate. Mercenaries, Roleplay PVP, alliance warfare or join somebody like ISS Navy that has a more neutral PVP policy. Your comment about missions made me laugh...quote. "Missions are kind of cool, a little story to go with the rats." Join an alliance or one of the above..then you can create the story and be part of something. I'm sure that any alliance would welcome a Dread pilot currently with the state of POS ping pong...and you dont get a much larger rat than that.:) Eve is like a new girlfriend - you know its going down at some point, its just when and for how long.
Lunarmist	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:23:00 - [23] I really don't think there should be a limite on ship usage. People should be able to fly the ship they paid for whatever the purpose they might choose. This is a game, why not let people have fun? If lvl 4 missions are too easy for capt ships, why not create harder missions? Such blanket nerf is bad for the game in general. Why pvp combat have to be the end all and be all answer to game content? Capt ships can only be used in low sec and 0.0 system. That is enough risk already and why not people who owns capt. ships to have some pve fun? Nerf bat is the always the easiest answer to everything isn't it? Seems that way...
spurious signal Caldari Brainiacs	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:23:00 - [24] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico snip Sorry for snipping your post there Ruffio, my post hit the word limit, had to trim it. True, you can get pirated when doing missions, I think that's great and it adds much-needed risk to missions. And yes, there may be several people doing this, but it's relatively rare compared to the number of people running level 4 missions. Just judging by the number of people complaining about this capital ship fix in the last few days this is something that has been happening a lot. So, personally, I don't think the tiny risk of having your carrier probed out and ganked during the 30-60 minutes it takes to complete a deadspace mission doesn't qualify as anything near the risk that should go along with the rewards. Clearly CCP agree... There are plenty of people mission running in very expensive ships. Faction BS? Faction gear? Tech 2 gear? I also feel that there needs to be more risk associated with higher-level missions but it's important to remember that the range of people doing these missions is huge. For instance, I run level 4 missions in a tech 2 fitted Raven. It costs me something like 80 mill to replace and re-insure if I lose it, and I do lose the odd ship (rarely these days but it only takes a bad lag spike on warp-in or for my PC to crash at the wrong time and I can be in a pod. On the other hand I know people who mission run in HACs. It takes them longer, it costs more to replace but they can happily sit there tanking the entire spawn of top level 4 missions without breaking a sweat. On the other other hand I have a mate who's just started doing level 4's in a Dominix. He struggles with them a lot and has lost 3 or 4 domi's in the last 2 weeks. It doesn't deter him, he keeps trying, he's getting better and he's learning more. If the missions were harder he couldn't do them. Good game design caters for a WIDE range of abilities and lets both hardcore and "casual" gain too. Yes, mission runners have been nerfed a few times, yes that's how it should be. CCP have said several times that they will continue to try and balance things and that they may not always get it right first time. Quote: Oh and risk free ISK? Please stop GTC sales if that should be the punch line. Agree 100% with that. Totally, unequivocally.
Ares Helix Gallente NunyaBizzness Omega Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:35:00 - [25] Edited by: Ares Helix on 29/09/2006 12:35:49 I run a Navy Mega through level 4's. I'm still nervous about taking it in and I'm in .6 space mostly, because insurance if I dod loose it would pay me SFA of its value (Insert fly what you can affor to loose rubbish response here) Fact is I think that the nerf in this instance was over zealous. As I said, I agree about plexes, designed for teams, less for solo but surely the idea would be to open L5 agents prior to making a move like this. Certainly this would be a better way forward to create a more balanced game, rather than forcing people into PVP. Since when has the CCP company motto been: Nerf them! Nerf them all to hell! They made ME a General? What were all the 5 year old sissy girls busy? o_0 ... How'd he know!?!
Kira Natel	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:39:00 - [26] CCP needs to stop touting EVE as a NO holds barred sandbox where you can do what you like as that really only applies to 0.0 alliances more and more. In the ever present forcing, pushing, cajoling, nerfing players to move to 0.0; these actions have and will fail again and again. Alot of players will choose another game over 0.0. While some of you will say great and give me your stuff, its a monetary loss to CCP that's just going to get bigger and bigger over time.
Gonada Gallente Cross Roads	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:42:00 - [27] OMG, pathetic loosers still posting bout this? from the start capital ships were not to be used in deadspace missons. capital ships are for fleet manuvers. grow up allrdy or leave -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:57:00 - [28] Now that is the crux of it. Every single piece of documentation on Dreads and Carriers has stated repeatedly that they would not supposed to be able to use gates of any kind (jump or accelleration). How did you manage to miss this rather important piece of information. This has nothing to do with nerfing mission runners, this has to do with game mechanics and game balance. Not to mention it doesn't make much sense for a jump gate to be off limits to a cap ship and the smaller accelleration gates to work just fine for one. And if you can't figure out what to do with a carrier or dread in this game, you have larger issues anyway.
Rick Dentill Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.29 13:00:00 - [29] A Dominix is perfectly suited to running missions, check out the ships and mods pages to get a good fitting. 2billion of dread is major overkill for level 4s. I didnÆt even realise gates could allow capital ships till they couldnÆt, wish I agree WorldÆs Collide is a pain in the bottom, but can be done if you think about it carefully. But really I would suggest making new friends if all your current ones are leaving the game. On the subject of comparing EVE ships to 18th/19th Century fleets, where does one begin. At Trafalgar nelson had 3 first rates, 4 second rates and 20 third rate ships. The Franco-Spanish, 4 first rates and 29 third rates. If we take a 3rd rate as being a battleship in eve, then at Trafalgar there were 11 capital ships out 60, a pretty high proportion really. _______ http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/page.php?id=dd
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics	Posted - 2006.09.29 13:10:00 - [30] Originally by: Gonada OMG, pathetic loosers still posting bout this? from the start capital ships were not to be used in deadspace missons. capital ships are for fleet manuvers. grow up allrdy or leave Originally by: Ivan Kirilenkov ISD Forum Moderator Please remember that even though you may disagree with people, you may NOT resort to personal attacks. Looking at your post history, you do this quite often As for the post, rufio has it right... Who are ccp to preach risk v's reward... when they dare to leave the very mechanisms in place that destroy the very principles of it... First and foremost.... ccp are a buisness.. Kieron said that, something you should all remember well when talking morales.. ccp do not in any way lead by example.... why should the players be called black My answer and destination is set:Linkage ______
Ortu Konsinni KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.09.29 13:14:00 - [31] Sell your Moros and get a pimped up battleship, you'll be running through missions like Carl Lewis on the track. --- High quality pics of ALL EVE ships!
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.09.29 13:28:00 - [32] Originally by: Ortu Konsinni Sell your Moros and get a pimped up battleship, you'll be running through missions like Carl Lewis on the track. qft Running lvl4 in capitals was retarded anyway. There is/was the missions you can do faster. Few stages or not too far to travel between gates. Officer smartie to get rid of frigs/close range cruisers. Fighters/drones take care of the BS and cruisers within no time. Then there is/was the missions with lots of stages, lots of distance to travel to next gate. Slooooow. And then there is/was all the giant roids and other crap floating in space. Can't align on gate to next stage with capital ship due to roids/garbage beeing right on top of it. Or warp in, bump into a giant veldmoon and get bounced off few hundred km........ Don't REALLY get why anyone is whining. Looks just like some rich kids lost the only use for their e-peen. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Ruffio Sepico Minmatar Hidden Agenda	Posted - 2006.09.29 13:31:00 - [33] Originally by: Ortu Konsinni Sell your Moros and get a pimped up battleship, you'll be running through missions like Carl Lewis on the track. Maybe for someone its more about being able to use new toys rather than stick with same old. For some its also the means to go to places they wouldnt normaly do else. Anyways, you can't define what other players find fun in EVE to do based on your own ideals about what that should be. We all play this game and do different things in EVE, our primary goal is to have fun doing this, wether its doing missions, pvp, mine veldspar etc. If you dislike someone run missions in a capital ship, fine that is your right to do so, but it also that persons right to do as he want. CCP's failure is the lack of communication and ability to sort out game mechancis before they introduce new things in EVE. If they made it so capital ships couldn't enter missions and complex's from day one, then it wouldnt been a problem. But now so long afterwards when many players did spend their time and effort to reach the goal to actually use capital ships for low sec missions etc, its imho to late to introduce such changes. Players would focused on do other things rather than end up hit their head against a brick wall in despair. All the players that keep flame other players for how they play the game should be ashamed of themselfs tbh. No one play this game by YOUR defination of how it should be played, they play it by theirs and for fun. Its like some players feast on other players misfortune, gloating and trolling. Great way to build a community spirit right? I thought the EVE crowd tried to be so much better than what else to be found out there, but hey what a illusion.... Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
spurious signal Caldari Brainiacs	Posted - 2006.09.29 13:34:00 - [34] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico CCP's failure is the lack of communication and ability to sort out game mechancis before they introduce new things in EVE. If they made it so capital ships couldn't enter missions and complex's from day one, then it wouldnt been a problem. But what you're asking there is that CCP get everything perfectly right straight away with no need to ever balance things in the future ever again. Which simply isn't possible. CCP have said several times that they WILL nerf and balance all sorts of different things in the future. CCP introduces new stuff. Players find ways to use it that is unbalanced or that CCP simply don't like. They will change it. They have to reserve that right or else the game could get seriously messed up. Remember dual-MWD battleships? They were effectively god-mode. CCP never intended for BS's to be invincible therefore they HAD to change it despite the fact that they never explicitly said when MWDs came out "these are not intended to make your ship invincible".
Yukon Cornelius Caldari Digital Fury Online	Posted - 2006.09.29 13:40:00 - [35] Originally by: Pattern Clarc It's sad however, as what you want from the game is only a small portion of what it offers . Nobody does everything of what anything offers. This isn't "sad", it's a reflection of a person's tastes. You like dark chocolate, he likes milk chocolate, failing to appreciate the flavor of both is not "sad". But saying something like "that's sad" is always what's known as "patronizing". Better to stick to the point of the conversation, than shift focus to the author.
Martinez Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2006.09.29 13:41:00 - [36] Ok ccp wanted them out of missions but they are taking a large part of the game out for alot of people. ccp allowed alot of isk to be made for a long time. if it was so bad for eve then they would fixed a week after they found out they could go into complex and deadspace. i dont run missions really at all, i dont fly a carrier, dont do many complexes, but i do respect others in this game and respect if they dont want to pvp, pve, or mine. who am i to tell someone how to play or judge them. ccp screwed this up and alot of people are screaming for ccp with quotes like "its their game they can do what they want". that is partial true, yes they develop the game but without the player base of pirates, carebears, gankers, griefers, miners, station huggers, npcers, mission spammers, and traders ccp has nothing but alot of expensive equipment and a game that used to be good. i think the change is good for the game and myself honestly, but my main problem with it is the fact that ccp didnt change it 9months ago and allowed tons of money to be made by a few for to long. that is what ccp should be being reamed on a bit for.
Martinez Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2006.09.29 13:43:00 - [37] oh yeah and for those who say capitals where not meant for missions and complexes. have you ever seen a battle badger? dont think it was made for that but it is damn fun. there is no right way in eve or what this is meant for in eve. that is what makes eve great.
Ere'kior	Posted - 2006.09.29 13:45:00 - [38] Originally by: Crumplecorn You skilled for months to get a carrier to PvE in it and you think CCP are the ones at fault? Moros-Dread nub
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.29 14:05:00 - [39] The point is, people knew that carriers and dreads were not supposed to be able to get through those gates and into deadspace missions and complexes... but when the found out they were bugged and could be brought in they plunged into training for them head first. And now that the bug has been fixed, they can no longer exploit it. So they are ****ed off at CCP for their own greed and stupidity. It doesn't get much clearer than that my friend.
Hydrian Alante The Loot Company	Posted - 2006.09.29 14:14:00 - [40] The problem is that most people didn¦t get the fact that eve online isn¦t wow in space Dude, you got a dreadnought! Dreadnought pilots are pilots of highest value to any alliance in game. You maybe got a free ticket to the best alliances in the game. I remember my days in .0 at times of pos sieges. After a couple of minutes someone opened a cyno at a friendly pos. After that our capital pilots jumped in. It was an absolute wow-factor for everyone in the alliance when these guys entered the battlefield. Even if we had seen it many times. These pilots were something for everyone to look up to and the majesty of there gigantic ships was overwhelming. And now you are going to tell me that you were running freakin missions, that are even boring to hell in a single battleship, with your dreadnought? Dude, leave EvE and play WoW. Eve isn¦t the right game for you. Oh and before you leave please sell the character to someone who can use it proberly. kthxbye
Argyle Jones Minmatar Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.09.29 14:53:00 - [41] I'm with the OP 100% here. "Capitol ships are not intended for mission running". No and that is the beauty of EVE, being able to do what you want, even if it wasn't intended by the devs. This nerf clearly shows that CCP holds the care-bears of EVE in very low esteem and have no concerns whatsoever with snagging away months of training time and billions of isk from their players without offering warning nor explanation. I enjoy pvp'ing, it's a great aspect of the game. But I often wonder how much better EVE would be if more effort was put into the PVE experience. The missions are repetitive at best. Complexes are focused solely on killing stuff. All solo player opportunities in EVE can be split into killing litte red crosses on a screen or moving stuff from a to b. How about some real reactive content? Missions with real storylines, instead of tiny amounts of text that you ignore after reading it the first time? (Not to mention that even though the pretext varies the result is always the same). And for gods sake, stop trying to control what players do with their time in EVE.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.29 14:57:00 - [42] Originally by: Argyle Jones I'm with the OP 100% here. "Capitol ships are not intended for mission running". No and that is the beauty of EVE, being able to do what you want, even if it wasn't intended by the devs. That does not apply to things the devs do to balance the game. ---------- Nerf Caldaro!
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.29 14:58:00 - [43] Originally by: Ere'kior Originally by: Crumplecorn You skilled for months to get a dread to PvE in it and you think CCP are the ones at fault? Moros-Dread nub Fixed ---------- Nerf Caldaro!
Kaaii Caldari Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2006.09.29 15:00:00 - [44] Edited by: Kaaii on 29/09/2006 15:03:49 I have a corp mate that runs lvl4's solo..in a battleship I guess its his skill that makes the difference... "..Red Alliance aren't better pilots...just better exploiters..." Trading 101
Fuujin Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.09.29 15:02:00 - [45] Originally by: Martinez Ok ccp wanted them out of missions but they are taking a large part of the game out for alot of people. What? Carriers are not nearly THAT common. Haven't you people ever heard of adapting? _______________ The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions
Argyle Jones Minmatar Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.09.29 15:06:00 - [46] Back on topic with the Cap ships. As it is now, there's very little you can do with a cap ship. You can spend 5-6 months training to use it properly. You can spend 6-700 mil on skillbooks and 1-2bil on the ship. You can spend omgwtf isk on the faction fittings for it. You can wait until your 100 friends log on, so you can have a lagfest. You can lose all your precious isk in a heartbeat, to a couple nos domis. Oh yeah, and the carriers are expensive haulers as well. And that's it. Great, where do I sign up? Before this nerf, cap ship pilots actually had a chance of earning back some of the isk/effort put into training those ships, by doing complexes in 0.0 and cosmos missions in low sec. Why not let the cap ship pilots have more fun?
Fuujin Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.09.29 15:07:00 - [47] Don't like it then don't pilot one, some of us have great uses for our capital ships. _______________ The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions
Lala Ru Gallente Quasar Industries Northern Regions Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.29 15:18:00 - [48] You can sell your character (for ISK, not $$$) and buy one customized for PVE. You should have a better PVE character along with a bunch of bonus ISK.
Argyle Jones Minmatar Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.09.29 15:28:00 - [49] Originally by: Lala Ru You can sell your character (for ISK, not $$$) and buy one customized for PVE. You should have a better PVE character along with a bunch of bonus ISK. Yeah, obviously that is what one should do. Thank you for your wise and insightful advice. And when CCP changes LVL 4 missions so they only drop civilian mods, I can sell that character and buy one that's better suited for mining veldspar in 1.0 space. See, why should CCP put any effort into making eve better, when we can all just adapt to whatever they throw at us? Like I said, I enjoy PVP. But the PVE part of EVE is found lacking.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.29 15:32:00 - [50] And totally not the point of this thread.
Infinity Ziona Privateers	Posted - 2006.09.29 15:34:00 - [51] Originally by: Argyle Jones Back on topic with the Cap ships. As it is now, there's very little you can do with a cap ship. You can spend 5-6 months training to use it properly. You can spend 6-700 mil on skillbooks and 1-2bil on the ship. You can spend omgwtf isk on the faction fittings for it. You can wait until your 100 friends log on, so you can have a lagfest. You can lose all your precious isk in a heartbeat, to a couple nos domis. Oh yeah, and the carriers are expensive haulers as well. And that's it. Great, where do I sign up? Before this nerf, cap ship pilots actually had a chance of earning back some of the isk/effort put into training those ships, by doing complexes in 0.0 and cosmos missions in low sec. Why not let the cap ship pilots have more fun? Capitals were (imo) a terrible implementation of a new philosophy, one of artificial restrictions and the phallacy (dib. sp) of risk vs reward low vs high sec. I like to fly big ships, with big guns, big tanks and big cap so carriers dont really appeal to me. And the dreadnoughts, would be more aptly called Poo'naughts, and are pretty much completely useless unless you like losing billions of isk at 1 FPS and shooting POS for 3 hours straight. Hopefully CCP will wake up one day and decide these artificial restraints and segmented content is not part of 'the (polymorphic) vision' and we'll get some sort of advanced battle-naughts for empire and low sec and 0.0 /Rant off Are Alliances Pushing You Around?
sableye principle of motion R i s e	Posted - 2006.09.29 15:35:00 - [52] I do feel a bit sad for you mhostly as I know how much time you spent to try get the ship and the efforts you put in skill wise. p.s. you ever get bored we have alot of enemy pos we need killed :).
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.29 15:55:00 - [53] Originally by: spurious signal Originally by: Ruffio Sepico CCP's failure is the lack of communication and ability to sort out game mechancis before they introduce new things in EVE. If they made it so capital ships couldn't enter missions and complex's from day one, then it wouldnt been a problem. But what you're asking there is that CCP get everything perfectly right straight away with no need to ever balance things in the future ever again. Which simply isn't possible. CCP have said several times that they WILL nerf and balance all sorts of different things in the future. CCP introduces new stuff. Players find ways to use it that is unbalanced or that CCP simply don't like. They will change it. They have to reserve that right or else the game could get seriously messed up. Remember dual-MWD battleships? They were effectively god-mode. CCP never intended for BS's to be invincible therefore they HAD to change it despite the fact that they never explicitly said when MWDs came out "these are not intended to make your ship invincible". I don't think people expect it right the first time. But people expect to not wait how many months? Before a MAJOR change like this is implemented. You can't tell me CCP didn't know about carriers running missions. And you also can't tell me that accelleration gates (which already have limited access controls) couldn't EASILY have been fixed to not allow cap ships in. The failure here is that it was allowed to go on for so long. Likely due to other higher priority things. But at the end of the day, this sort of "oh, you weren't ever supposed to be able to do that nerfBAT" is a good way to ruin a game. Or at the least, **** off lots of people that play it. I agree that carriers in missions is silly. That doesn't change the fact that CCP screwed up big time on this one. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Martinez Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:00:00 - [54] Edited by: Martinez on 29/09/2006 16:00:38 Originally by: Martinez -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok ccp wanted them out of missions but they are taking a large part of the game out for alot of people. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________ What? Carriers are not nearly THAT common. Haven't you people ever heard of adapting? ______________________________________________________________ like i said i dont do it so i dont have to adapt, and what i am ****ed off about is why the patch now? should have been done a week after capital ships where released if they didnt want them running missions. if i want to use a freighter as a gate camped it is my damn ship i paid for it i should be able to do it. instead of making it where the ships cannot go in there they shoudl have made the missions where you wouldnt want to use capital ships in them. example move the gates 200km from each other in the missions. that would make using a slow moving dread or a carrier not worth it. problem is people where spamming them and making huge amounts of money. as for not alot of people using them, there was about to be that is ccp stepped in, alot of people had dropped their skill time and isk on them so ccp knew what they where doing. time sink and isk sink.
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:01:00 - [55] Originally by: Ilmonstre Originally by: Epsilon 1 Boo ***** hoo suck it up and adapt. please do not replyn if this is all you have to say. Do you think EvolutionÖ is hard on you? Please don't reply if you have dyslexia or if you're going to quote my posts. Originally by:** Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Eternal Fury Caldari Shadow Of The Light	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:13:00 - [56] Theres one thing that everyone keeps missing about the OP. He doesn't want to PvP. Sure this game may be PvP centric, and sure most of us find our enjoyment out of PvP, but some people just dont' enjoy PvPing. PvPing is an expensive form of entertainment. Especially for those of us not in alliance's, or not in the major ones, or those of us who live in poor area's(of the game) or those of us in tiny corps. PvP in this game is so much more rewarding then in other games becuase of the Risk vs Reward. The reward isn't much. The Risk is high. The OP just wants to PvE. And there are a LOT of people out there who want to do that as well. They don't want to risk everything, they don't want to loose 3 months worth of saveing because they happen to hit a gate camp of Vetran Pirates. They just want to log on, kill some NPC's for a few hours, and log off. I DO feel that CCP needs to address this, as there area a lot of potential customers that are driven off by the SEVERE lack of PvE content. All of that said, I'm in a 5 man corp liveing in 0.0 in hostile territory and not in any alliance. :) Well, mainly becuase none of the alliance's in our are would even look at a 5 man corp :)
Evelgrivion	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:15:00 - [57] After im done writing this Im reporting this thread to the moderators simply because so many people are making patronizing and rude responses to a completely level headed complaint - and they have the gall to not even read it, which some of the people clearly did not. Guess what folks? I didnt know that you werent supposed to use cap ships in complexes. Who really did before this patch? Yes pharming ISK is bad. However, changing something someone invested so much time into because they thought it was cool and then making fun of them for being upset for having their goal made obsolete is going to upset anyone. Everyone whos saying that hes dumb or should go play WoW, why dont you? EVE would be better off without your attitude.
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:18:00 - [58] Edited by: Exiled One on 29/09/2006 16:20:38 Originally by: Evelgrivion After im done writing this Im reporting this thread to the moderators simply because so many people are making patronizing and rude responses to a completely level headed complaint - and they have the gall to not even read it, which some of the people clearly did not. Guess what folks? I didnt know that you werent supposed to use cap ships in complexes. Who really did before this patch? Yes pharming ISK is bad. However, changing something someone invested so much time into because they thought it was cool and then making fun of them for being upset for having their goal made obsolete is going to upset anyone. Everyone whos saying that hes dumb or should go play WoW, why dont you? EVE would be better off without your attitude. Its been said by the devs that Cap ships were not intended for PVE.PERIOD. And guess why the **** those skills are Rank 14-16? If you've been playing since 2005 - we can't help you. Now have a lolly
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:22:00 - [59] Originally by: Eternal Fury Theres one thing that everyone keeps missing about the OP. He doesn't want to PvP. Sure this game may be PvP centric, and sure most of us find our enjoyment out of PvP, but some people just dont' enjoy PvPing. PvPing is an expensive form of entertainment. Especially for those of us not in alliance's, or not in the major ones, or those of us who live in poor area's(of the game) or those of us in tiny corps. PvP in this game is so much more rewarding then in other games becuase of the Risk vs Reward. The reward isn't much. The Risk is high. The OP just wants to PvE. And there are a LOT of people out there who want to do that as well. They don't want to risk everything, they don't want to loose 3 months worth of saveing because they happen to hit a gate camp of Vetran Pirates. They just want to log on, kill some NPC's for a few hours, and log off. I DO feel that CCP needs to address this, as there area a lot of potential customers that are driven off by the SEVERE lack of PvE content. All of that said, I'm in a 5 man corp liveing in 0.0 in hostile territory and not in any alliance. :) Well, mainly becuase none of the alliance's in our are would even look at a 5 man corp :) 'Sure this game is pvp static gibberish'; AND SO ARE THE BLOODY DREADNAUGHTS. Ok.
Argyle Jones Minmatar Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:23:00 - [60] Also, I don't see why farming isk in a carrier for instance, is so devastating to the EVE gamplay. I mean, more people buy carriers, more people raid plexes and cosmos - then more faction items become available and price drops. Supply and demand. Farming isk is bad? How about t2 production? I didn't see this same patch forcing t2 producers to be fair with their prices. So summed up, supplying the market with more faction loot is bad, but keeping the t2 stuff to yourself and letting it out a little bit at a time for outrageous prices is good?. :\|
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:29:00 - [61] Edited by: Epsilon 1 on 29/09/2006 16:30:25 Originally by: Argyle Jones Also, I don't see why farming isk in a carrier for instance, is so devastating to the EVE gamplay. I mean, more people buy carriers, more people raid plexes and cosmos - then more faction items become available and price drops. Supply and demand. Farming isk is bad? How about t2 production? I didn't see this same patch forcing t2 producers to be fair with their prices. So summed up, supplying the market with more faction loot is bad, but keeping the t2 stuff to yourself and letting it out a little bit at a time for outrageous prices is good?. :\| How about 10bil a day is made running a 8/10 angel plex down the south, then that isk gets sold on ebay. That isk is bought and used by dumb**s who buy characters with 30m. sp trained for cap ships (while being a 'noob' as they called themselves); also used to aquire and equip said ships. Now after that they either lose it and go crying on the forums and/or in this particular case, the ships gets fixed (in a carebear's eyes - nerfed), which also results in such threads. Clear enough? I can give you infinite reasons to the holy 'whys' and 'whats'. Edit: Typo. Originally by:** Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Fuujin Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:32:00 - [62] Edited by: Fuujin on 29/09/2006 16:33:48 Originally by: Eternal Fury Theres one thing that everyone keeps missing about the OP. He doesn't want to PvP. Sure this game may be PvP centric, and sure most of us find our enjoyment out of PvP, but some people just dont' enjoy PvPing. PvPing is an expensive form of entertainment. Especially for those of us not in alliance's, or not in the major ones, or those of us who live in poor area's(of the game) or those of us in tiny corps. PvP in this game is so much more rewarding then in other games becuase of the Risk vs Reward. The reward isn't much. The Risk is high. The OP just wants to PvE. And there are a LOT of people out there who want to do that as well. They don't want to risk everything, they don't want to loose 3 months worth of saveing because they happen to hit a gate camp of Vetran Pirates. They just want to log on, kill some NPC's for a few hours, and log off. I DO feel that CCP needs to address this, as there area a lot of potential customers that are driven off by the SEVERE lack of PvE content. All of that said, I'm in a 5 man corp liveing in 0.0 in hostile territory and not in any alliance. :) Well, mainly becuase none of the alliance's in our are would even look at a 5 man corp :) We all want a lot, the thing is in this game theres limits to everything, you can't have your cake and eat it too. The op can do that, he can grab a navy raven, load it up with faction gear, and then go run missions. His payout won't be as great and as risk free as the carrier but it was never intended on being that way. I'd love to get a Wyvern without doing much work for it at all, but it's just not going to happen. Some things you have to work for in this life. Putting time into this game does not in any way entitle you to be given things for free. There is no severe lack of PVE content in this game, you have mining, manufacturing, missions, cosmos and ratting. There's lot of it around. People just need to understand that there's a limit those professions can take you to while having little risk, if you want to earn the bigger bucks you have to be willing to risk your hide. _______________ The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:35:00 - [63] Edited by: Epsilon 1 on 29/09/2006 16:35:32 Originally by: Fuujin Originally by: Eternal Fury Theres one thing that everyone keeps missing about the OP. He doesn't want to PvP. Sure this game may be PvP centric, and sure most of us find our enjoyment out of PvP, but some people just dont' enjoy PvPing. PvPing is an expensive form of entertainment. Especially for those of us not in alliance's, or not in the major ones, or those of us who live in poor area's(of the game) or those of us in tiny corps. PvP in this game is so much more rewarding then in other games becuase of the Risk vs Reward. The reward isn't much. The Risk is high. The OP just wants to PvE. And there are a LOT of people out there who want to do that as well. They don't want to risk everything, they don't want to loose 3 months worth of saveing because they happen to hit a gate camp of Vetran Pirates. They just want to log on, kill some NPC's for a few hours, and log off. I DO feel that CCP needs to address this, as there area a lot of potential customers that are driven off by the SEVERE lack of PvE content. All of that said, I'm in a 5 man corp liveing in 0.0 in hostile territory and not in any alliance. :) Well, mainly becuase none of the alliance's in our are would even look at a 5 man corp :) We all want a lot, the thing is in this game theres limits to everything, you can't have your cake and eat it too. The op can do that, he can grab a navy raven, load it up with faction gear, and then go run missions. His payout won't be as great and as risk free as the carrier but it was never intended on being that way. I'd love to get a Wyvern without doing much work for it at all, but it's just not going to happen. Some things you have to work for in this life. Putting time into this game does not in any way entitle you to be given things for free. Fuujin, don't start on the risk free carrier lvl4 whoring (the non-pvp blokes, that don't want to pvp). Some lads even manage to lose 2-3 carriers to lvl4 spawns -- that says alot where those ships were aquired and how. (same goes for characters -- tracing is a piece of **). Originally by:** Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Fuujin Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:37:00 - [64] I don't go around saying this often, but if you lose several carriers running level 4 missions you seriously need to get the heck out of one and go back to the ibis. _______________ The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions
000Hunter000 Gallente Leviathan Corperation LTD	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:38:00 - [65] Does this mean carriers/dreads will become cheaper now? Might go back on my advanced spaceship command L5 skill then Banner will be updated shortly
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:42:00 - [66] Originally by: Fuujin I don't go around saying this often, but if you lose several carriers running level 4 missions you seriously need to get the heck out of one and go back to the ibis. They need to stop lurking about on the ***** ebay and selling GTCs. Then we wouldn't see such threads. Funniest thing is Devs said cap ships werent intended for pve and why the skill ranks are so high - yet clueless s ignore everything. Truth will make your eyes bleed, if you want customer support (nerfing/boosting something every***day depending on what the community says) aka wow/swg -- then quit eve, you won't be missed guys we had a blast time without you back in the 2004. No more further comments. Originally by:** Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Constantine Arcanum Gallente IMPERIAL SENATE Pure.	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:43:00 - [67] Originally by: Epsilon 1 How about 10bil a day is made running a 8/10 angel plex down the south, then that isk gets sold on ebay. That isk is bought and used by dumb****s who buy characters with 30m. sp trained for cap ships (while being a 'noob' as they called themselves); also used to aquire and equip said ships. Now after that they either lose it and go crying on the forums and/or in this particular case, the ships gets fixed (in a carebear's eyes - nerfed), which also results in such threads. Clear enough? I can give you infinite reasons to the holy 'whys' and 'whats'. Edit: Typo. GIVE THIS MAN A MEDAL! Best response on the thread. (And no I'm not being sarcastic). I helped - Cortes What a shiny and lovely place here - Eshtir Well lets make it a party atleast :D -Xorus RAWWWR!11!!1!2 SIG HIJACK!!11!1 I found it first, get orrrfff moiiii laaannnd - Cortes
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Nova Republic	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:56:00 - [68] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 29/09/2006 16:55:49 Originally by: spurious signal EVE is about risk vs reward. Oh! Well that explains T2 BPOs. I was so confused. Quote: More risk = more reward. Mission running in capital ships = high reward, no risk. This breaks EVE, it undermines the economy It's nothing like T2 BPOs! -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Orri Sarikusa	Posted - 2006.09.29 17:00:00 - [69] Anyone whos been in EVE for more than a year knows full well that nerfs come out of the blue many months after implementation. Missiles, drones, tracking for guns, npc trading to name one or two. Some of those were years after implementation. CCP actually warned people about this and they still went ahead. Word of warning anything you do now that earns lots of ISK is likely to be nerfed at any time. EVE ahs always been adapt and overcome. If you don't like it quit and come back later or quit. Why do you think the average length of time people play this game is 7 months. --- How to avoid a ban. The Manuel approach - 'I know nothing I'm from Barcelona'
Argyle Jones Minmatar Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.09.29 17:14:00 - [70] Originally by: Epsilon 1 How about 10bil a day is made running a 8/10 angel plex down the south, then that isk gets sold on ebay. That isk is bought and used by dumb****s who buy characters with 30m. sp trained for cap ships (while being a 'noob' as they called themselves); also used to aquire and equip said ships. Now after that they either lose it and go crying on the forums and/or in this particular case, the ships gets fixed (in a carebear's eyes - nerfed), which also results in such threads. Clear enough? I can give you infinite reasons to the holy 'whys' and 'whats'. Obviously you didn't read my post. It may come as a surprise to you, but lots of people work really hard to get into capitol ships. I sincerely doubt that many players would pay the hundreds if not thousands of dollars required to buy a carrier pilot on ebay. In your own words, such newbie pilots end up losing their cap ships against lvl 4 spawns, so you shouldn't really have to worry about them farming 8/10 angel complexes, should you? As it is now, those complexes are being farmed anyway, by big corporations and alliances. A small corp or a solo player really hasn't got many opportunities to bump such forces out, which is why they must often contend with 6/10's in the outskirts of lowsec / .0, which is fine by me. But completely denying the opportunity, by forcing ever more restricted gameplay is not the way to improve EVE Online. Never has been, never will be. On the subject as to whether or not the cap ships were intended to fly in complexes and missions, that hardly matters when you're discussing whether or not it should be allowed to do it now. Intentions change, and it can scarecly be considered an argument what someone intended many months ago, before the ships were even implemented into the game.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.29 17:46:00 - [71] Originally by: Argyle Jones Originally by: Epsilon 1 How about 10bil a day is made running a 8/10 angel plex down the south, then that isk gets sold on ebay. That isk is bought and used by dumb****s who buy characters with 30m. sp trained for cap ships (while being a 'noob' as they called themselves); also used to aquire and equip said ships. Now after that they either lose it and go crying on the forums and/or in this particular case, the ships gets fixed (in a carebear's eyes - nerfed), which also results in such threads. Clear enough? I can give you infinite reasons to the holy 'whys' and 'whats'. Obviously you didn't read my post. It may come as a surprise to you, but lots of people work really hard to get into capitol ships. I sincerely doubt that many players would pay the hundreds if not thousands of dollars required to buy a carrier pilot on ebay. In your own words, such newbie pilots end up losing their cap ships against lvl 4 spawns, so you shouldn't really have to worry about them farming 8/10 angel complexes, should you? As it is now, those complexes are being farmed anyway, by big corporations and alliances. A small corp or a solo player really hasn't got many opportunities to bump such forces out, which is why they must often contend with 6/10's in the outskirts of lowsec / .0, which is fine by me. But completely denying the opportunity, by forcing ever more restricted gameplay is not the way to improve EVE Online. Never has been, never will be. On the subject as to whether or not the cap ships were intended to fly in complexes and missions, that hardly matters when you're discussing whether or not it should be allowed to do it now. Intentions change, and it can scarecly be considered an argument what someone intended many months ago, before the ships were even implemented into the game. I can not believe you actually wrote that last paragraph. How could it NOT matter what the original concept was behind capitol ships? A huge amount of game balance is affected by these ships and what they can or cannot do. Capitol ships were never intended to go through gates of any kind, thus limiting their mobility and eliminating them from mission/complex use... and rightfully so. Anything else would be (and due to the gate bug, has been) extremely unbalancing to the game. More content for PVE is a valid, but completely separate issue. A problem has been fixed, and for good reason. People that are upset by it deserve no sympathy. If they were unaware that Cap ships were not supposed to be able to go through gates of any type, then they did not put enough preparation and thought into their decision to spend all of that time and isk. The information was readily available. Dead horse, moot point, time to move on.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.29 18:17:00 - [72] "Wrong. EVE is about risk vs reward. More risk = more reward. Mission running in capital ships = high reward, no risk. This breaks EVE, it undermines the economy and it makes a mockery of the mission system. And no, I'm not a "0.0 nutter", I'm a semi-carebear, but I can clearly see how allowing people to mission run in capital ships is wrong. I congratulated the OP on not sounding like a whiny child, but you've just added the required "whiny child" dose to complete this thread." ACTUALLY YOU'RE WRONG. LAst I checked you can make over 250mill a week EASILY by setting up some build and sell orders with a t2 bpo, it only takes an hour or two of gameplay time, therre is 100% ZERO risk. How does this fit into the entire risk vs reward BS you are spewing. Nowhere is it written and EVERYWHERE eve does the opposite providing many opportunities to make ISK and even ALOT of isk with no risk but big rewards. for some reason combat of npc's get's pigeon holed into needing risk when so many other things clearly have no risk, never will, and yet clearly were intended to provide rewards. I see the opposite way. By limiting cap ships to pvp only they are really screwing the pooch in eve because it is wasted content that people not into pvp have no reason to use now, or to play. Just like the OP, what is his upgrade path to keep him playing.... NOTHING. He will get bored and quit and there in lies one of the biggest flaws of EvE.
Deja Thoris Revelations Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.29 18:17:00 - [73] Originally by: Epsilon 1 How about 10bil a day is made running a 8/10 angel plex down the south, Has nothing to do with the topic at hand I don't agree with capitals in level 4's but I also dislike bull** logic like yours. Since when have bugged spawn rates and carriers in level 4's been related? Oh, they arent. Originally by:** Clementina If you bug report it, you get ignored. If you post about it on the forums, you get banned. If you exploit it, you get rich.
Deja Thoris Revelations Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.29 18:28:00 - [74] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 ACTUALLY YOU'RE WRONG. LAst I checked you can make over 250mill a week EASILY by setting up some build and sell orders with a t2 bpo, it only takes an hour or two of gameplay time, therre is 100% ZERO risk. You seem to have forgotten about the fact that many people purchased bpo's with ISK. Invention is a serious risk to their investment. It's not an "in your face right now" risk but it's a BIG risk non the less. But hey, you've never let facts spoil your posts before, don't start now huh? Originally by: Clementina If you bug report it, you get ignored. If you post about it on the forums, you get banned. If you exploit it, you get rich.
Powder Monkey	Posted - 2006.09.29 18:33:00 - [75] Originally by: Constantine Arcanum Originally by: Epsilon 1 How about 10bil a day is made running a 8/10 angel plex down the south, then that isk gets sold on ebay. That isk is bought and used by dumb****s who buy characters with 30m. sp trained for cap ships (while being a 'noob' as they called themselves); also used to aquire and equip said ships. Now after that they either lose it and go crying on the forums and/or in this particular case, the ships gets fixed (in a carebear's eyes - nerfed), which also results in such threads. Clear enough? I can give you infinite reasons to the holy 'whys' and 'whats'. Edit: Typo. GIVE THIS MAN A MEDAL! Best response on the thread. (And no I'm not being sarcastic).
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.29 18:57:00 - [76] "You seem to have forgotten about the fact that many people purchased bpo's with ISK. Invention is a serious risk to their investment. It's not an "in your face right now" risk but it's a BIG risk non the less. But hey, you've never let facts spoil your posts before, don't start now huh?" PLease use more correct logic in the future when you wish to debate an issue. Your statement is the equivelent of suggesting well then why should't someone be able to use carriers or titans for level 4 missions..... you seem to forgot they had to PURCHASE that ship inorder to pilot it, plus all the mods and the skills, thus they are at RISK! Regardless it doesnt create any true risk, all it creates it a potential for thier return on investment to take longer than planned to recoup. The fact is producing things to sell on the market has no ACTUAL risk. So you need to seriously recheck your so called facts spoiling any posts. Because the FACT is t1 bpo are still profitable, and have ZERO risk, and thus it is logical to assume t2 bpo will always make profit as well. Return on investmentis the only issue that can change, as well as the fact you seem to not be able to comprehend, that then the player who SOLD the T2bpo made immense reward for very little or NO risk.....something that if the purchaser makes no money from the T2 bpo pruchase has nothing to do with the risk vs reward that the initial recipient experienced..... Also last I checked Invention does not appear to be a SERIOUS risk to anyone BPO, not to mention if they did purchase the BPO it was second hand as all the t2 BPO were lotto'd to original owners, ooooo but serious risk for them as they had to earn loyalty points at research agents! I mean hey according to your /cough logic Mission runners of anysort are up for potential bigtime risk by simply purchasing a ship, i mean hey invention might provide a serious drop in the price of their investment if they buy that HAC today, or carrier even... So again the concept that mission runners must have RISK! because all of eve balance is based on the fact of risk vs reward is compeltely and 100% wrong, Fact is someone got a t2 bpo for very VERY little risk, and have been able to reap ungodly rewards from it, by either producing with it OR SELLING THE BPO TO SOMEONE ELSE, selling it does not change the fact they made extreme income for very little risk, and even worse low gameplay time.
spurious signal Caldari Brainiacs	Posted - 2006.09.29 19:03:00 - [77] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 ACTUALLY YOU'RE WRONG. LAst I checked you can make over 250mill a week EASILY by setting up some build and sell orders with a t2 bpo, it only takes an hour or two of gameplay time, therre is 100% ZERO risk. How does this fit into the entire risk vs reward BS you are spewing. Nowhere is it written and EVERYWHERE eve does the opposite providing many opportunities to make ISK and even ALOT of isk with no risk but big rewards. for some reason combat of npc's get's pigeon holed into needing risk when so many other things clearly have no risk, never will, and yet clearly were intended to provide rewards. I see the opposite way. By limiting cap ships to pvp only they are really screwing the pooch in eve because it is wasted content that people not into pvp have no reason to use now, or to play. Just like the OP, what is his upgrade path to keep him playing.... NOTHING. He will get bored and quit and there in lies one of the biggest flaws of EvE. Yeah I'm no fan of the whole T2 BPO lottery either tbh, but guess what, there's some kind of fix for that coming too, called Invention. Now let's think about your logic shall we? X is wrong therefore Y, which is also wrong, should be allowed to! And if a bunch of whiny kids who can't run lvl 4's in capital ships throw their toys out of the pram and leave EVE you know what? GOOD! We're better off without lamers like that.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.29 19:37:00 - [78] "Yeah I'm no fan of the whole T2 BPO lottery either tbh, but guess what, there's some kind of fix for that coming too, called Invention. Now let's think about your logic shall we? X is wrong therefore Y, which is also wrong, should be allowed to! And if a bunch of whiny kids who can't run lvl 4's in capital ships throw their toys out of the pram and leave EVE you know what? GOOD! We're better off without lamers like that." Invention doesnt change what I pointed out not 1 single bit. People will still be able to make significant money on eve with little to no risk. As far as my logic goes you assume I said "x is wrong there y is wrong should also be allowed", I was merely pointing out that maybe X isn't wrong therefore Y isnt wrong either... Like I said if you look at every aspect of EVE there seems to be no true constant of risk balanced by reward. It just happens that for whatever reason people who combat NPC's seem to be the only ones in this game held up to the standard of needing significant risk, yet of nearly all way to make ISK in EVE mission running clearly does NOT stand out as a manner of having significant rewards. As far as your idea that if a bunch of people can;t run level 4 missions in carriers and get mad and quit EVE good we are better off without them.... I strong differ from your stance.... First off explain the harm they bring you, justifying why you would be better off without them, while your at it expla9in the benifit YOU bring to eve and why we so badly need you? Secondly I am of the camp thjat says it is none of my buisness to tell others how they can have fun playing a video game. If some guy gets his rocks off doing level 1 missions in a battleship? good for him go to town pal, if it is level 4 in a carrier? good for him goto town pal, if it is mining veldspar in a 1.0 system with no risk? Good for him he pays he can decide how he gets his entertainment, If you wanna mindlessly camp gates and pwn people 8 on 1? go for it get your rocks off. I might not agree those are entertaining or challenging forms of gameplay but I wouldnt deny someone the option to do that. PS I do think that there shouldnt be such limited bottlenecks forcing people through only a limited number of gates however :P which is somewhat unrelated.
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.29 21:10:00 - [79] Wow, it never ends. Just a few years ago the same crap was being said about using battleships to mine with. After all it is named BATTLEship so it could not be used for anything else. Now it is capital ships. Personally I dont see why carriers and dreads cannot go though gates, they are smaller than freighters. This is just something that CCP likes to do to remove game content from the casual player to force them in to a style of play that CCP wants but the player base does not. Now why do I say the play base does not want to do what CCP want, because 80-90 percent of all players never leave empire space. So, while I would never used a capital ship for level 4 missions, I might consider it for the coming faction war or level 5 ones. For level 4 my pimped out Navy Apoc works just fine. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Ares Helix Gallente NunyaBizzness Omega Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.29 21:44:00 - [80] Originally by: Miri Tirzan Wow, it never ends. Just a few years ago the same crap was being said about using battleships to mine with. After all it is named BATTLEship so it could not be used for anything else. Now it is capital ships. Personally I dont see why carriers and dreads cannot go though gates, they are smaller than freighters. This is just something that CCP likes to do to remove game content from the casual player to force them in to a style of play that CCP wants but the player base does not. Now why do I say the play base does not want to do what CCP want, because 80-90 percent of all players never leave empire space. So, while I would never used a capital ship for level 4 missions, I might consider it for the coming faction war or level 5 ones. For level 4 my pimped out Navy Apoc works just fine. <Insert Applause Here> They made ME a General? What were all the 5 year old sissy girls busy? o_0 ... How'd he know!?!
ahf 42	Posted - 2006.09.29 21:52:00 - [81] just becaue capital ships were not ment to go into a complex is no reason to stop them know, after all if exploiters can use exploits for a year and be allowed to remain in the game, why not allow capital ships to do the complexes....neither of these things were ment to be this way, but happened (only difference now is that capital ships are not allowed in a complex...exploiters are still in the game) snip Signature removed. Please see the forum rules regarding signatures (#3) -Eldo
Infinity Ziona Privateers	Posted - 2006.09.29 21:59:00 - [82] Originally by: Exiled One Originally by: Eternal Fury Theres one thing that everyone keeps missing about the OP. He doesn't want to PvP. Sure this game may be PvP centric, and sure most of us find our enjoyment out of PvP, but some people just dont' enjoy PvPing. PvPing is an expensive form of entertainment. Especially for those of us not in alliance's, or not in the major ones, or those of us who live in poor area's(of the game) or those of us in tiny corps. PvP in this game is so much more rewarding then in other games becuase of the Risk vs Reward. The reward isn't much. The Risk is high. The OP just wants to PvE. And there are a LOT of people out there who want to do that as well. They don't want to risk everything, they don't want to loose 3 months worth of saveing because they happen to hit a gate camp of Vetran Pirates. They just want to log on, kill some NPC's for a few hours, and log off. I DO feel that CCP needs to address this, as there area a lot of potential customers that are driven off by the SEVERE lack of PvE content. All of that said, I'm in a 5 man corp liveing in 0.0 in hostile territory and not in any alliance. :) Well, mainly becuase none of the alliance's in our are would even look at a 5 man corp :) 'Sure this game is pvp static gibberish'; AND SO ARE THE BLOODY DREADNAUGHTS. Ok. Actually the dreadnoughts are more PvE if you think about it. Thats my major dissatisfaction with them. For PvP they suck ass.
Lo3d3R Implant Liberation Front	Posted - 2006.09.29 22:03:00 - [83] Edited by: Lo3d3R on 29/09/2006 22:04:00 CCP should have made a diffirence between a static complex ( 8/10 etc) and deadspace missions. Its not so much advantage if you compare a navyraven with everything faction or a carrier... perhaps the pilot with the carrier makes it more boring for himself because its simply to easy in a carrier, but its not a big financidl gain because it isnt that much faster to complete the mission... (and hey theres usually far from faction loot in a mission ) Also CCP claims they want ISK sinks, well a missionrunner that is obviously in low-sec where he can be attacked by pirates or other scum, who probe out their mission spots, its a potentialy large isk sink risc. So in a way CCP made the game more boring, and also removed a valid ISK sink option, as running missions with a capital ship can be dangerous, I must say I'm dissapointed in the lack of vision in this matter although I totally agree on the static complex issue, its simply to easy just having to tank for faction loot. 0/ ___________________ Eating Chopped Bear:
BlackBeard 007	Posted - 2006.09.29 22:10:00 - [84] Originally by: Deja Thoris Originally by: Epsilon 1 How about 10bil a day is made running a 8/10 angel plex down the south, " I also dislike bull** logic like yours." Quote:** allot of people find the same of all your comments, and your peopleskills. that beeing said, the 10 billion a day is really bad for the economy i have heard of 12 billion complex raging in the local channel today ----- I offer ISK for a nice sig for me :)
Phoenix Lonestar Litanies of Hate	Posted - 2006.09.29 22:20:00 - [85] Edited by: Phoenix Lonestar on 29/09/2006 22:25:47 {quote]Personally I dont see why carriers and dreads cannot go though gates, they are smaller than freighters. This is just something that CCP likes to do to remove game content from the casual player to force them in to a style of play that CCP wants but the player base does not. Uhhh.... style of play the player base does not want... yes. I can see the logic of your post, based on the fact that the majority of the player base has access to and skills to fly carriers. That dastardly CCP dev team, ruining the game for all those thousands of players that can fly carriers. It's not like there's a 20:1 ratio of people flaming to people whining or anything. I've got an idea... Risk vs. Reward theory people... read closely. You took a risk by training/buying a carrier. Your risk didn't pay off. You lose. Good day, sir.
Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.09.29 22:24:00 - [86] Originally by: Phoenix Lonestar I've got an idea... Risk vs. Reward theory people... read closely. You took a risk by training/buying a carrier. Your risk didn't pay off. You lose. Good day, sir. owned I demand that this thread may now be locked
Abyss Jack Serial Chill3rz	Posted - 2006.09.29 22:30:00 - [87] back to op, i agree, this sneak nerf was realy bad for him. He just could spend thos 5 months of SP to train perfect raven skills :P i also fear that i log someday and my raven is nerfed... creepy isn't it...? sig
Phoenix Lonestar Litanies of Hate	Posted - 2006.09.29 22:33:00 - [88] Originally by: Abyss Jack back to op, i agree, this sneak nerf was realy bad for him. He just could spend thos 5 months of SP to train perfect raven skills :P i also fear that i log someday and my raven is nerfed... creepy isn't it...? Rest assured that that probably wouldn't happen. There are way too many people who fly Ravens around for PVP and PVE to let a serious nerf go too long without a mass exodus of players. I can only see a nerf occuring in a few situations... a) They nerf ALL the battlesheeps, so it's a relative null b) Suddenly all chars lose interest in the Raven and fly Megas, so it wouldn't affect the majority of the player base c) SOE buys EVE and determines that their new company policy is "**** the customer."
spiderbaby Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.29 22:37:00 - [89] Guess what guys, CCP ain't gonna change their mind cos a bunch of you whine here like girls. Get used to it. Sorry.
Abyss Jack Serial Chill3rz	Posted - 2006.09.29 22:56:00 - [90] Edited by: Abyss Jack on 29/09/2006 22:57:51 Originally by: spiderbaby Guess what guys, CCP ain't gonna change their mind cos a bunch of you whine here like girls. Get used to it. Sorry. Dear Mr. Alt, forum is made for whinerz, cuz ingame we are all heros. Don't forget that. sig
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.29 22:58:00 - [91] Oh noes!! (disclaimer: i'm drunk) Sorry but you were abusing the wrong tool for the job, now things are right again, dreadnoughts are siege engines, nothing more - certainly not uber mission solopwnmmobiles ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:01:00 - [92] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 29/09/2006 23:01:28 Originally by: Fujiko MaXjolt I can sympathize with you totally, dude. Back before the drone boost/redo/nerf/whatever, i had my eye set on a moros as an uber mining-boat for low-sec/0.0 - sadly, CCP decided that it shouldn't get a mining-amount bonus for the drones, and my goal was moot This isn't the first time, nor do i think it will be the last time, that CCP has removed unforeseen gameplay. Gameplay that doesn't harm anyone, but makes life in eve sweet for the people who discover it and think it's cool The Devs are just PvP-combat lubbers, and try to steer the the game towards everyone being forced into doing it, like it or not. And to all the 0.0/lowsec-nutters that are gonna say OMGZ!!1! mining in a dread, you nub! : We make the game fun for ourselves, you just have a different outlook than me Yeah...and? it's their game afterall... Edit: and i'm glad they are that way inclined ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:06:00 - [93] Originally by: Argyle Jones I'm with the OP 100% here. "Capitol ships are not intended for mission running". No and that is the beauty of EVE, being able to do what you want, even if it wasn't intended by the devs. This nerfclearly shows that CCP holds the care-bears of EVE in very low esteem and have no concerns whatsoever with snagging away months of training time and billions of isk from their players without offering warning nor explanation. I enjoy pvp'ing, it's a great aspect of the game. But I often wonder how much better EVE would be if more effort was put into the PVE experience. The missions are repetitive at best. Complexes are focused solely on killing stuff. All solo player opportunities in EVE can be split into killing litte red crosses on a screen or moving stuff from a to b. How about some real reactive content? Missions with real storylines, instead of tiny amounts of text that you ignore after reading it the first time? (Not to mention that even though the pretext varies the result is always the same). And for gods sake, stop trying to control what players do with their time in EVE. It's a Bug fix... ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:07:00 - [94] Originally by: Argyle Jones Back on topic with the Cap ships. As it is now, there's very little you can do with a cap ship. You can spend 5-6 months training to use it properly. You can spend 6-700 mil on skillbooks and 1-2bil on the ship. You can spend omgwtf isk on the faction fittings for it. You can wait until your 100 friends log on, so you can have a lagfest. You can lose all your precious isk in a heartbeat, to a couple nos domis. Oh yeah, and the carriers are expensive haulers as well. And that's it. Great, where do I sign up? Before this nerf, cap ship pilots actually had a chance of earning back some of the isk/effort put into training those ships, by doing complexes in 0.0 and cosmos missions in low sec. Why not let the cap ship pilots have more fun? Bug Fix... ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:08:00 - [95] Originally by: Argyle Jones Originally by: Lala Ru You can sell your character (for ISK, not $$$) and buy one customized for PVE. You should have a better PVE character along with a bunch of bonus ISK. Yeah, obviously that is what one should do. Thank you for your wise and insightful advice. And when CCP changes LVL 4 missions so they only drop civilian mods, I can sell that character and buy one that's better suited for mining veldspar in 1.0 space. See, why should CCP put any effort into making eve better, when we can all just adapt to whatever they throw at us? Like I said, I enjoy PVP. But the PVE part of EVE is found lacking. Well duh...its a PvP game with PvE 'trimmings' ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:10:00 - [96] Originally by: Eternal Fury Theres one thing that everyone keeps missing about the OP. He doesn't want to PvP. Sure this game may be PvP centric, and sure most of us find our enjoyment out of PvP, but some people just dont' enjoy PvPing. PvPing is an expensive form of entertainment. Especially for those of us not in alliance's, or not in the major ones, or those of us who live in poor area's(of the game) or those of us in tiny corps. PvP in this game is so much more rewarding then in other games becuase of the Risk vs Reward. The reward isn't much. The Risk is high. The OP just wants to PvE. And there are a LOT of people out there who want to do that as well. They don't want to risk everything, they don't want to loose 3 months worth of saveing because they happen to hit a gate camp of Vetran Pirates. They just want to log on, kill some NPC's for a few hours, and log off. I DO feel that CCP needs to address this, as there area a lot of potential customers that are driven off by the SEVERE lack of PvE content. All of that said, I'm in a 5 man corp liveing in 0.0 in hostile territory and not in any alliance. :) Well, mainly becuase none of the alliance's in our are would even look at a 5 man corp :) That's all well and good, but complaining about a bug fix to a distinctly PvP orientated tool is pretty stupid IMO... ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:12:00 - [97] Originally by: Argyle Jones Also, I don't see why farming isk in a carrier for instance, is so devastating to the EVE gamplay. I mean, more people buy carriers, more people raid plexes and cosmos - then more faction items become available and price drops. Supply and demand. Farming isk is bad? How about t2 production? I didn't see this same patch forcing t2 producers to be fair with their prices. So summed up, supplying the market with more faction loot is bad, but keeping the t2 stuff to yourself and letting it out a little bit at a time for outrageous prices is good?. :\| It isn't really, but then as Kieron has stated, it was never intended - it was a bug, that has now been squashed... ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:14:00 - [98] Originally by: Epsilon 1 Edited by: Epsilon 1 on 29/09/2006 16:35:32 Originally by: Fuujin Originally by: Eternal Fury Theres one thing that everyone keeps missing about the OP. He doesn't want to PvP. Sure this game may be PvP centric, and sure most of us find our enjoyment out of PvP, but some people just dont' enjoy PvPing. PvPing is an expensive form of entertainment. Especially for those of us not in alliance's, or not in the major ones, or those of us who live in poor area's(of the game) or those of us in tiny corps. PvP in this game is so much more rewarding then in other games becuase of the Risk vs Reward. The reward isn't much. The Risk is high. The OP just wants to PvE. And there are a LOT of people out there who want to do that as well. They don't want to risk everything, they don't want to loose 3 months worth of saveing because they happen to hit a gate camp of Vetran Pirates. They just want to log on, kill some NPC's for a few hours, and log off. I DO feel that CCP needs to address this, as there area a lot of potential customers that are driven off by the SEVERE lack of PvE content. All of that said, I'm in a 5 man corp liveing in 0.0 in hostile territory and not in any alliance. :) Well, mainly becuase none of the alliance's in our are would even look at a 5 man corp :) We all want a lot, the thing is in this game theres limits to everything, you can't have your cake and eat it too. The op can do that, he can grab a navy raven, load it up with faction gear, and then go run missions. His payout won't be as great and as risk free as the carrier but it was never intended on being that way. I'd love to get a Wyvern without doing much work for it at all, but it's just not going to happen. Some things you have to work for in this life. Putting time into this game does not in any way entitle you to be given things for free. Fuujin, don't start on the risk free carrier lvl4 whoring (the non-pvp blokes, that don't want to pvp). Some lads even manage to lose 2-3 carriers to lvl4 spawns -- that says alot where those ships were aquired and how. (same goes for characters -- tracing is a piece of ****). I'd love to be able to afford loose 2-3 carriers just like that ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:16:00 - [99] Originally by: Orri Sarikusa Anyone whos been in EVE for more than a year knows full well that bug fixes come out of the blue many months after implementation. Missiles, drones, tracking for guns, npc trading to name one or two. Some of those were years after implementation. CCP actually warned people about this and they still went ahead. Word of warning anything you do now that earns lots of ISK is likely to be nerfed at any time. EVE ahs always been adapt and overcome. If you don't like it quit and come back later or quit. Why do you think the average length of time people play this game is 7 months. Fixed that for you ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:17:00 - [100] Originally by: Argyle Jones Originally by: Epsilon 1 How about 10bil a day is made running a 8/10 angel plex down the south, then that isk gets sold on ebay. That isk is bought and used by dumb****s who buy characters with 30m. sp trained for cap ships (while being a 'noob' as they called themselves); also used to aquire and equip said ships. Now after that they either lose it and go crying on the forums and/or in this particular case, the ships gets fixed (in a carebear's eyes - nerfed), which also results in such threads. Clear enough? I can give you infinite reasons to the holy 'whys' and 'whats'. Obviously you didn't read my post. It may come as a surprise to you, but lots of people work really hard to get into capitol ships. I sincerely doubt that many players would pay the hundreds if not thousands of dollars required to buy a carrier pilot on ebay. In your own words, such newbie pilots end up losing their cap ships against lvl 4 spawns, so you shouldn't really have to worry about them farming 8/10 angel complexes, should you? As it is now, those complexes are being farmed anyway, by big corporations and alliances. A small corp or a solo player really hasn't got many opportunities to bump such forces out, which is why they must often contend with 6/10's in the outskirts of lowsec / .0, which is fine by me. But completely denying the opportunity, by forcing ever more restricted gameplay is not the way to improve EVE Online. Never has been, never will be. On the subject as to whether or not the cap ships were intended to fly in complexes and missions, that hardly matters when you're discussing whether or not it should be allowed to do it now. Intentions change, and it can scarecly be considered an argument what someone intended many months ago, before the ships were even implemented into the game. They weren't intended to be used in complexes - bug fixed 'nuff said ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:19:00 - [101] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 "Wrong. EVE is about risk vs reward. More risk = more reward. Mission running in capital ships = high reward, no risk. This breaks EVE, it undermines the economy and it makes a mockery of the mission system. And no, I'm not a "0.0 nutter", I'm a semi-carebear, but I can clearly see how allowing people to mission run in capital ships is wrong. I congratulated the OP on not sounding like a whiny child, but you've just added the required "whiny child" dose to complete this thread." ACTUALLY YOU'RE WRONG. LAst I checked you can make over 250mill a week EASILY by setting up some build and sell orders with a t2 bpo, it only takes an hour or two of gameplay time, therre is 100% ZERO risk. How does this fit into the entire risk vs reward BS you are spewing. Nowhere is it written and EVERYWHERE eve does the opposite providing many opportunities to make ISK and even ALOT of isk with no risk but big rewards. for some reason combat of npc's get's pigeon holed into needing risk when so many other things clearly have no risk, never will, and yet clearly were intended to provide rewards. I see the opposite way. By limiting cap ships to pvp only they are really screwing the pooch in eve because it is wasted content that people not into pvp have no reason to use now, or to play. Just like the OP, what is his upgrade path to keep him playing.... NOTHING. He will get bored and quit and there in lies one of the biggest flaws of EvE. Bleh, the whole cap-ship concept is a PvP-centric one (POS assualts, stations, fleet battles), they are not meant to be the next 'best thing' after a BS... ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:22:00 - [102] Originally by: ahf 42 just becaue capital ships were not ment to go into a complex is no reason to stop them know, after all if exploiters can use exploits for a year and be allowed to remain in the game, why not allow capital ships to do the complexes....neither of these things were ment to be this way, but happened (only difference now is that capital ships are not allowed in a complex...exploiters are still in the game) Why not? it's the Dev's vison for the game afterall, and cap-ships were (in their vision) never meant to be uber mission whoringmobiles (bug fixed ) ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:23:00 - [103] Originally by: spiderbaby Guess what guys, CCP ain't gonna change their mind cos a bunch of you whine here like girls. Get used to it. Sorry. Yup At the end of the day it's their vision for the game, you were living on borrowed time with using cap ships as mission runners, well...times up ---------- - Office Linebacker -
0lly Minmatar Wheel Of Time Ltd	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:29:00 - [104] Gabriel : talk about Forum Diarrhoea. usually one post is enough :) Regards 0lly If you were me , You'd want to be somebody else as well .
Mak'shar Karrde Minmatar UK Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:30:00 - [105] Edited by: Mak''shar Karrde on 29/09/2006 23:33:33 You do know that there is no actual post count for these boards... Right? You didn't need all those posts to say basically the same thing over and over again. As for the OP, I truely feel sorry for you, I hope you can get over it. I do think the fix was correct but perhaps CCP should have made it clearer that it was an unintended feature that they would be fixing one day. If you ever do decide to join an alliance though, those skills, and your experiance, will become very handy indeed!
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:33:00 - [106] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 29/09/2006 23:34:51 Originally by: 0lly Gabriel : talk about Forum Diarrhoea. usually one post is enough :) Regards 0lly ..\|.. Edit: Multiple people spouting the same garbage, what more can I say? ---------- - Office Linebacker -
0lly Minmatar Wheel Of Time Ltd	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:46:00 - [107] I feel your pain Regards 0lly If you were me , You'd want to be somebody else as well .
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon	Posted - 2006.09.29 23:51:00 - [108] Why feck MWD's so much with deadspace's as well? ----------------------------------------
mallina Caldari Turbulent	Posted - 2006.09.30 00:48:00 - [109] Originally by: Epsilon 1 Boo ******* hoo suck it up and adapt. im afraid this person expresses my feelings on the matter with complete accuracy I can just imagine the despair in Annacale after that patch - seems every missionrunner in EVE who got a capital went there to continue their farming. Anyone who leaves the game over a change/fix like this really shouldnt be playing to start with - i mean is farming ISK all day at almost no risk really the only way you can enjoy this game? This change hurts pirates, too. TURBY have ganked 6 mission-running capital ships recently, 2 of which we were lucky enough to capture because the pilot jettisoned a hauler and boarded it to grab loot, despite there being several -10 pirates in local. The simple fact that people with absolutely no clue about pvp were able to use Capitals in this way is just wrong to begin with. Carriers are meant for Gang Support - Fighter Deployment, Refitting, Ship Replacement, Remote Boosting, etc Dreads are meant for Sieges, or in direct combat with other Capital Ships Battleships are easily enough to do most lvl4 missions anyway. Can't do a mission by yourself? bring a friend, or turn it down. Alternatively if you like the mindless isk grinding you could just step down to a quality 20 level 3 agent and be invincible in that. ----------- Turbulance
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.09.30 00:53:00 - [110] Originally by: mallina ...6 mission-running capital ships recently, 2 of which we were lucky enough to capture because the pilot jettisoned a hauler and boarded it to grab loot, despite there being several -10 pirates in local... And on this beautiful note can the almighty mods close this thread and any clones that would appear soon after? mallina & others, it's useless explaining whys and whats to all the braindead citizens of Our Universe, who refuse to accept a simple fact - CCP. Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Phoenix Lonestar Litanies of Hate	Posted - 2006.09.30 01:27:00 - [111] I second the motion for lockage of this and all related whinges.
Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.09.30 01:46:00 - [112] please read this for a description of the real life (EvE) use of capital ships... Now, lock this thread before I break my keyboard
Argyle Jones Minmatar Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.09.30 18:23:00 - [113] So far all arguments I've seen against using cap ships in missions and complexes are: "That's not how they were intended" - duh, but thats how they were used. "You suck, adapt" - Yeah, any injustice can be adapted to. Hungry, Mr. african? Just adapt... "You whine" - Voicing concern is whining. All people speaking for the betterment of anything are whiners. They should just shut up and adapt. The logic is infallible, I must admit. Now try and adapt to your obvious lack of mental capacity, and cease babbling here. Thank you.
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.30 19:06:00 - [114] Originally by: Argyle Jones So far all arguments I've seen against using cap ships in missions and complexes are: "That's not how they were intended" - duh, but thats how they were used. "You suck, adapt" - Yeah, any injustice can be adapted to. Hungry, Mr. african? Just adapt... "You whine" - Voicing concern is whining. All people speaking for the betterment of anything are whiners. They should just shut up and adapt. The logic is infallible, I must admit. Now try and adapt to your obvious lack of mental capacity, and cease babbling here. Thank you. Quote: Hungry, Mr. african?
Fuujin Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.09.30 23:02:00 - [115] Yeah, comparing mission running with starving people in africa.....what a fine argument you make. _______________ The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions
Edu Journeyman Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.01 03:24:00 - [116] The OP is right! When I started EVE, I was supposed to choose my path... I cretated my 1st Char to be a miner, yet on the trial account, after buying my 1st Bantam and mining Veldspar for 2 to 3 hours I was falling asleep above the keyboard, bored; well, that is not fun... Hey, look I can train industrial and become a trader, it will be easy, ok lets go, after a wile, I was buying my 1st Badger and looking the market for buy/sell orders, traded some stuff for 1 or 2 days, but, again, that 70 jumps/day and marketing buying/selling orders was not that fun too... hmmm... I don't liked the courier missions on the tutorial, BTW... But, look, there is an agent in this station, lets talk with him and see what he want, interesting, kill some NPC, get the bounty, some ISK as reward (and if I do it quickly I can get this ammo too), and the guy and his NPC Corp will like me more... yeah, after a wile I was in my 1st Kestrel, haha, hey, good, I like this, damn, just lost my 1st ship, and was fited with 4 Makult Standard Lauchers that the insurence don't cover, well, even then, I was having fun, I bought another Kestrel and keep my mission running, get enough standings to work for level 2 agents and I was there again, having fun and getting more ISK and standings and my 1st implant with storyline, that was great, up in the ladder, started to do missions with level 3 agents, I was flyng my most loved ship till that time, yeah, the Caracal rules, wait, what is this? Damn, pwned Jezzzz, these guys hit harder, I need a ship that can sustain that amount of damage... I will cut all this blah, blah, blah and get to the point, some of the players had the same experience and I don't need to bother all you with this talking. After 9 months, I'm soloing lvl4 missions w/o the use of fanction ships or modules, I helped many friends with ISK, implants, named modules, some tips, ganging to helping them up in the ladder fast, etc. This is what I like to do in EVE, this is the path of my choice. 2 accounts, the other is for Alts to do boring stuff, hauling, researching, industry, etc (please, keep in mind that all that professions are BORING to me, I'm not talking that everyone will be bored mining or manufacturing, we are different people with diffetent tastes)... Now, without any warning, without any discussion, the Devs changed some things to "balance" the game, because they think that is the better for me, I don't think so, I'm paying to have fun, to be free to choose what I want to do, not to be pushed by someone else desire into doing some thing I just hate... Before some can call me a carebear, I do and always did missions in low sec and yeah, I was atacked, ganked, pwned sometimes, won a few, lost a lot more, but I don't complain, it's the risk that makes the chalenge and I'm becoming better at each PvP fight as I learn. What? My point? Well, all I can have to say is: my 2 accounts subscriptions are cancelled, not because only some "balance" screwed what I like to do in this game, but because I'm being ignored for all these 9 months, and I'm not alone. I doubt some Dev will quote and answer any of my posts, including this one, even if they can answer any other nonsense posted in the forum by someone else, I feel as my opinions and my desires are not worth of, even, a disagree. I don't like that, period. Good luck guys, and no, I will not give you my stuff, I already have a lot of friends that deserve it more than anyone else Be your journeys long and prosperous. Treat the others as you like to be treated. Rude and fool are enemies.
Luigi Thirty Caldari Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.01 04:07:00 - [117] MOROS IS INVINCIBLE :(((( ---- This is a sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.01 04:15:00 - [118] Originally by: Luigi Thirty MOROS IS INVINCIBLE :(((( Alcohol is your friend
Spix 'UK	Posted - 2006.10.01 06:11:00 - [119] Edited by: Spix ''UK on 01/10/2006 06:12:28 I agree here since june 20th all CCP have done is stealth nerf missions over & over.. , u really only enjoy pvp / dont you ? . well some of us only like PVE.. we dont want to join a corp or a ally... heck we got friends we can hang out with run a few missions 2gether maybe even go rat a belt or gank sumthing... but mostly we enjoy PVE.. to stop CAP ships from doin missions is just wrong.. All these loot stealth nerfs "alloy" etc etc u keep doin on missions is just out of order why dont u go fix the plexs were corps are farming say the MACH BS faction BPC like RA? etc.. really all CCP do is HURT mission runners day in & day out.. how long be4 u break this game that all the carebears will leave & the PVP's wont have anything to kill.. Listen to ur player base.. CCP / DEVS u just dont do anything for the misisons runners at all , whats this I know lets add another 8000 units of Kernite / omber to storyline missions so that were payin 17mil isk just to gain thes standing ( which is Crap ) & a +4 implant worth what 50mil ? .. bottom line... FIX ur f*** act.. & stop hurting the mission runners. we all liked eve back in June be4 ur patch missions were quicker offer tables were fine.. its like u want people to stop makin isk to fast.. so that we play ur game longer to GRIDE are isk .. oo there is a thought...
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.01 09:25:00 - [120] Mkay I’ll sum up my thoughts to this as breifley as I can… - To the OP: commiserations man :( - To those saying Dreads are PvP ships only… wrong – they suck at PvP, they are designed to do one job, and one job only - Kill POS’s. What are POS? they sure as hell aren’t players are they? Gee, do you think they might be classed as environment? Ie: PvE? Uhh…. - So a “carebear” works his ass off for over 5 months and PERSONLEY affords a 2.5-3 billion isk ship, and he wants to run missions in it… So ****ing what? Does that harm me? No. Does that harm Eve? No. does that harm anyone? No. wtf do you care? Does it have something to do with people that choose the route of piracy and 0.0 looking down there noses with contempt at all the empire huggers while stroking there e-peens and attempting to mask the fact that they think they are so much better by spouting off any argument that fits there POV? - To those saying capital ships in missions violates Risk Vs. Reward: there are more ways than I can count to make an absolutely crapload of isk in Eve without Any risk whatsoever, hell I could name several that you can do without Undocking! - More on Risk Vs. Reward: It’s a capital ship, he cant go into highsec, therefore any determined group of Pirates in a few battleships could kill him easy, that’s risk. - To those saying Dreads should be / were designed to be the sole provision of 0.0 alliances: O RLY? That’s funny, I seem to remember something about Eve being a sandbox? No? mmm… maybe I was mistaken, you know if a single player is dedicated enough to grind away in empire / lowsec to get a 2.5-3b isk ship, imho he should be allowed to do whatever the snip* he wants with it. - Dreads are overpowed for lvl 4 missions and enable the runner to make too much isk Really? And a T2’d and Faction fitted Raven isn’t overpowered and can’t complete the mission pretty much just as fast? If the dude waited over 5 months and spent that many billions on it, then meh, he’s earned the right to omgwtfpwn missions as far as I care. He is not invulnerable, and one day he will lose it, in the meantime he can use those missions to save for his replacement. - Capships were never intended to run missions or complexes: Ok fair enough, but a few things Should have happened… 1. ccp should have fixed that way WAY sooner, before people started doing it. 2. ccp should have noticed that capships where being used by empire dwellers, and taken there sandbox philosophy to heart. Failing that, then… 3. given us all fair and clear warning WAY ahead of time that this was going to happen, yeah ok lots of people did know, well I didn’t, and I’m sure many many others didn’t either, the problem isn’t that a “bug” is being fixed, its that this fix affects a load of people who worked really dam hard for there ship, and then find that the content they wanted it for is now inaccessible, considering were talking 5+ months of skilling and around 2.7 billion isk, that’s a Hell of a Nurf – With No Prior Warning Or Possibility Of Discussion. THAT is what worry’s me, the fact that something that someone could have put such a huge amount of time into, so that they can do what they want to do in this supposed “sandbox” can be shot down so easily when really, in the wider scheme of things it does no harm at all. Ok now just for the record - I do not own a dread. - I do not own a carrier - I do not run missions… Ever. - I rarely run plexes and when I do, a BS will do just fine. - My Alt IS skilling for a Carrier, but when I get it, even without this patch, it wouldent have gone anywhere near a plex, or within 500 LY of any dam missions, it’ll be used “as intended™”, but I really don’t care if others want to use them for PvE, it does no harm, and I think everyone who’s responded with childish “go back to WoW” crap needs to cut the arrogance, wake up, and smell what there shoveling. --- Congratulations!... You just read my signature.
Archa Caldari United Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.01 11:19:00 - [121] I agree with aleksi here. I have been playing this game since beta 2.0. And i've done pretty much everything i could find in eve. i've run missions, i have traded, i have pvp-ed, i have happily pirated. i've been in 0 sec. and so on. and so on. I always keep a good eye on the boards and I have a subscription to the e-on magazin to read about this fantastic game and this brilliant virtual world. But i just don't understand why this nerf suddenly takes place. I'm upset about it for several reasons. I'm upset about it because i've trained to specialise in a thanatos for many months. lets say i trained for 5 months. I even trained my fighter skill to lvl 5!. I do this because i love to do missions and i have always tried to do my missions more efficient and more quick. Now they completely nerf the main function and only function i use this ship for. aside from 5 months of training skills that i am probably not going to use any more, I have invisted several billion isk in this adventure as well! But that is not the worse part. The worse part is the fact that ccp didn't announce that this nerf would take place. And when they put the nerf in they didn't even apologise for the inconvenience! Because lets face it, if carriers weren't used for missions or complexes, what are they supposed to be used for? because they suck! i'm almost maxed out in damage dealing with this ship and still a well fitted dominix can tank my fighters! And if this is a risk versus reward issue..... give me a break. I'm flying a 2.5 billion isk ship through a mission that can be picked up by any covert ops pilot around. It not like a carrier is invincible because they surely around the top of the cream. I am gutted about this. And I know alot of other people are gutted about this as well. CCP screwed up and we are the ones to suffer, its that simple. archa out.
Zaldo Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.10.01 11:33:00 - [122] I really dont feel sad for you guys,you trained for something that was never ment to be..Only thing i will grant you,is that it was a pretty short notice from ccp.I gues you will have to do missions like the rest of us now.. Zaldoc...Miner Zaldoza..Mission Runner Zaldo....hauler
Orri Sarikusa	Posted - 2006.10.01 11:47:00 - [123] Some people have stated that CCP said it was a bug. That can't be the case or it would've been classed as an exploit. It was more like a broken mechanic, like instas, GTCs, jet can mining. They all get fixed eventually when a solution is found. The solution to this was an easy fix. I'll say it again you knew it was coming a long time ago. But you ignored the fact the only person responsible for wasting training time is yourself. For those fairly new to EVE. This is what EVE is like three year vets chars like main which I've suspended at the moment have wasted countless months training for stuff thats been nerfed changed or removed. There will be more instances of this in the future pay attention if something is easy and makes a lot of isk it gets the nerf bat. If you can't do missions easily in a carrier then... well what can I say. How do you lose a carrier in a mission, I understand if you're jumped by players but if you lose a capital to NPCs you really ought to practice on soemthing easier first. --- How to avoid a ban. The Manuel approach - 'I know nothing I'm from Barcelona'
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.01 13:58:00 - [124] Im gonna side with a number of posters on this thread by saying that although i understand CCP didnt want cap ships doing missions, they should have sorted that months ago or at least announced they were doing it in Dragon before they did it. I dont fly acap ship yet. & TBH i dont want to. The PvP ive been in when theyve been used has not looked fun. Carriers sit in ss' assigning fighters to inty pilots while Dreads brave the immense POS induced lag n sit there for hours shooting away at thetowers shields. I know this isnt the only way theyre used, but that just isnt fun imo. Simularly the risk/reward arguement imo is overplayed. low sec mission running is incredably risky. Not coz the missions are hard but because it just takes 1 PvP fitted git to find ur mission complex n bang goes several billion isk in ship & mods. You may never fall victim to such an event, but it just has to happen once for you to see months worth of effort go up in smoke just so someone can get their hands on a shine new killmail & ur mods. At least a capship gives u a sense of security against this, however false that may be.
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon	Posted - 2006.10.01 14:01:00 - [125] Dont screw with the effing MWD's!! They are vital to many. ----------------------------------------
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.01 17:27:00 - [126] Incidentally, if anyone here is desperae for a canon, RP excuse for the change: Accelleration Gates are configurable, so the owner can choose which sized ships are alowed in. This is evidenced by the fact that big wtfpwn BS's can't go in to 1/10 complexes. Now, the various "owners" of the deadspace areas (such as Angels, Serpentis, whatever) never take Capital Ships in to their deadspace areas (we know this as, as yet, no one has come accross a Serpentis Moros spawn, as scary as that'd be). Fed up of having their complexes fried by carriers every day, they have thusly configured their gates to no longer accept ships bigger than a BS. Happy?
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.01 17:32:00 - [127] EVE has always been about freedom to me. Freedom to do what I want in the game, to a certain extent. I think that you should be able to do missions with a dread/carrier. Maybe not plexes, or level 4 missions. But certainly some type of missions. And they should introduce the new type of missions, before they remove the "old" ones. [ore mongers, recruiting]
Miranda Duvall Gallente OPM Holdings	Posted - 2006.10.01 17:43:00 - [128] Why not go for command ships? Command Ship >> Battleship for PvE at least (dunno about PvP, never done any, i'm a bloody carebear ) My other char who is my mission runner now has access to all gallente and caldari T2 BC's, with lvl 4 or 5 in almost all shield/armor tank, cap skills, t2 medium blasters/rails, t2 heavy missile launchers... now that I mention it... I need to find a new specialism, cuz im right about done skilling for what I fly these days... anyway: make command ships your next goal, and sit back + relax during most L4 missions... skills top 20 My skill list
Lygos ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.01 17:50:00 - [129] Your options seem limited: 1)Learn to like pvp - well I guess that might be out if you are bored with it. 2)List your Moros on escrow or auction - but then you've got all those wasted SPs and/or overly expensive clone for BS warfare. 3)Trade in your Moros and buy a Carrier. Then you can use it for jump trading, which is a mostly logistic usage. You'll need to negotiate with other groups who would benefit from the service and have the materiel needed. Figure about 1M isk costs per 5-8k m3 or so.
Jollyreaper Gallente Ace Adventure Corp	Posted - 2006.10.01 18:14:00 - [130] I agree that there should be certain caps. The first time I got my destroyer, i tried running a 1/10 level. Nope, too big. Well, that's really fair. The n00bs in their shiny new frigates have to have fun, too. No fair if players in better ships have all the fun there. I got into missions late, was in cruisers by that point. Level 1's weren't all that fun. By the time I hit level 2's, I followed the advice of using blasters and getting in close. Between that and my drones, they're a lot more fun. I have to watch how I fight a bit more closely. I'm keeping my rail ships for when I go up against seriously tough opponents with my corp, that'll give me nice stand-off range. The thing is, I don't think that CCP should artificially shut off certain types of play to people. If someone really wants to run missions in a carrier, it sounds like there should be places where people can run missions in capships if they want, just make sure the risks are equal to the ship. For myself, I can barely coordinate with my corpmates for mining parties, let alone properly defending a POS. Shutting out high-end ship content only for those with ten hours a day to play is just as bad as designing a game that only rewards hardcore grinders.
Kelgen Thann SUBLIME L.L.C. Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.10.01 21:59:00 - [131] Capital Ships are not meant for Solo play. The fix was also because it was possible to go into a 10/10 complex with 1 friend and make billions and billions of isk a week. Dreads are one thing, ANTI-POS. Nothing else, Carriers, are support for fleets, and Motherships greater support, and Titans the Ultimate Support. That's how it goes. Level 4 missions are designed to be done in pricey Battleships or in small groups. Maybe one day if they open level 5 agents Capital ships will have a chance to partake in PvE. But until then This fix was much needed to stop complex farming, and bring missions into check. This also affected level 4 agents in 0.0 space as well. It wasn't limited to a empire nerf at all.
Ares Helix Gallente NunyaBizzness Omega Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.01 22:21:00 - [132] Originally by: Kelgen Thann Capital Ships are not meant for Solo play. The fix was also because it was possible to go into a 10/10 complex with 1 friend and make billions and billions of isk a week. Dreads are one thing, ANTI-POS. Nothing else, Carriers, are support for fleets, and Motherships greater support, and Titans the Ultimate Support. That's how it goes. Level 4 missions are designed to be done in pricey Battleships or in small groups. Maybe one day if they open level 5 agents Capital ships will have a chance to partake in PvE. But until then This fix was much needed to stop complex farming, and bring missions into check. This also affected level 4 agents in 0.0 space as well. It wasn't limited to a empire nerf at all. I disagree, as I and others have posted. Sure, maybe making the change to complex gates, but I disagree about barring missions for caps, as I've said, especially since level 5 missions are STILL unavailable. The main thing a lot of people here are failing to realize, is that EVE is touted as an open universe. This has majorly impacted people who want to use bigger ships, but not for PVP. There is no right or wrong way to use a ship, just as there are no right or wrong ways to set up a ship, or use escrow, or use the market or play eve!!! Telling people to stop whinging and start PVP when their utterly opposed to it is a stupid argument, tantamount to asking someone to change their religion because YOU disagree with its teachings. All up, imho CCP really screwed the pooch on this and I really hope to see sumin happen to rectify this soon. They made ME a General? What were all the 5 year old sissy girls busy? o_0 ... How'd he know!?!
var'ulfur Caldari Quantum Tech Mining	Posted - 2006.10.01 22:43:00 - [133] ok cap ships in general are fleet action ships. thier are thier to put a big hurting on your rival. the fact that you use a fleet action craft for missions is just wrong. on the up side sell your skills and ship to the highest bidder join a corp that makes war for money you will be glad you did talk is cheap the cost of action is enormus
Xander XacXorien	Posted - 2006.10.01 23:15:00 - [134] Mostly Harmless I think you are 100% right in being annoyed. It's time CCP provided 'content' they advertised some months ago to give missioners something better than the end game that's looming. Trading can make u billions -> no sign of a nerf there. Low sec roid farming in 'safe' alliance space can make u billions -> no sign of a nerf there. Rat farming in 'safe' alliance space can make u billions -> no sign of a nerf there. T2 ship BPO's can make u multi billions -> no sign of a nerf there. ESCROW can swindle u billions -> no sign of a nerf there. Macroers can make u billions -> little sign of any action. Peeps podding noobs for kill stats -> no sign of a nerf there. Yet nerf missioners,,, gotta be an easy target. I remember this risk and reward question coming up over and over years ago. Yet alliances hold control over complexes, T2 BPOs, low sec roid belts - yet the risk is far lower for an alliance player than any solo player. So do we see a boost for the way solo players play Eve ? No, it's always knocked down. A lot of people are saying if you cant play Eve the way they think Eve should be played go play something else. IMHO take your own advice if you cant stand how other peeps play Eve. IMHO PvP sucks. I got 1.5 years of play to end up in a blob fight where I got little or no control over a fight and peeps call that fun ? A fight lasts 30 secs or less,,, very dull. So the skills I got after 1.5 years work can be useful to you ? Well hard luck, they are there to make me ISK not you. You want the skills go train them yourself. To those of you who state it's an MMO u got to work together,,, yeh sometimes this works but mostly it's the guys at the top creaming off everything they can. I bet most people dont even realise how they are being used. Unfortunately Eve has been setup to create huge faceless corporations where power is concentrated in a few individuals - IMHO this doesnt work. Please bring out level 5 agent missions and get rid of fixed complexes - in fact all complexes in low sec. They end up getting farmed by alliances. Please put em in high sec and in random locations - preferrably as a result of following storyline missions. This will stop farming and give missioners something more than the end game that's being offered. I think someone who has played Eve for long enough to fly a Capital ship has paid enough Euro to use it as he/she pleases - Even if it's to fly it by noobs in highsec or use it as a pleasure cruiser filled with exotic slaves. No one has paid enough Euro to stop anyone playing Eve the way they want to - so get over it already. If Lowsec is so dull that you got to put effort into ruining some other part of the game then I suggest you get out of low sec and do something more entertaining instead. If not then it doesnt affect you.
Jason Kildaro Minmatar Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.01 23:31:00 - [135] I personally think that Cap ships should be able to run a mission...they just can't use the gates like originally designed...you should be able to have a scout set up a cyno field for you though. I believe the problem is you cannot create a cyno field in a deadspace area? Correc me if I'm wrong. Anyways, I don't really have a strong opinion on this but I do have to point out that the mission runners complain about the nerfs to mission running in general yet you were able to afford a dread and it's skill books from running missions...doesn't sound like a bad business. If mission runners are complaining about the need to inject more PvE content then I still don't get the point. If you want more excitement than why would want a huge capship? That sounds like you want to make your mission running even easier. How can having a powerful ship that stomps out the mission make your game more exciting? It's like taking a bazooka to a knife fight. It might be fun to obliterate your competition but after the first couple of fights it would seem pretty boring to me. By all means I'm not trying to tell you how to play your game but for those that say the anti capship guys have no arguement...what is your arguement to having a capship in a mission?
Darkenral	Posted - 2006.10.01 23:34:00 - [136] While this really does not affect me in any way as I do not own - fly a carrier it seems odd that, Apparently the sandbox is fine for: 8/10 complex sploiters T2 hac BPO owners Any and all scammers Any and all gankers Apparently the sandbox cannot accomodate: Mission Runners Missions have been steadily NERFED to hell for the last 6mos As if some decent PVE content is wat too difficult to keep in game, I really don't know what the deal is if its CCP having a lousy content team or just giving in to all the whiners that QQ all the time about mission runners. WAY TO GO CCP ! Dark
Ares Helix Gallente NunyaBizzness Omega Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.02 00:12:00 - [137] Originally by: Darkenral Edited by: Darkenral on 01/10/2006 23:37:34 While this really does not affect me in any way as I do not own - fly a carrier it seems odd that, Apparently the sandbox is fine for: 8/10 complex sploiters T2 hac BPO owners Any and all scammers Any and all gankers Apparently the sandbox cannot accomodate: Mission Runners Missions have been steadily NERFED to hell for the last 6mos As if some decent PVE content is way too difficult to keep in game, I really don't know what the deal is if its CCP having a lousy content team or just giving in to all the whiners that QQ all the time about mission runners. WAY TO GO CCP ! Dark <Insert more applause here> They made ME a General? What were all the 5 year old sissy girls busy? o_0 ... How'd he know!?!
Fuujin Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.10.02 00:14:00 - [138] Missions have been nerfed to hell?! this is news to me! made 350 mil yesterday afternoon. _______________ The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions
Ares Helix Gallente NunyaBizzness Omega Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.02 00:27:00 - [139] Originally by: Fuujin Missions have been nerfed to hell?! this is news to me! made 350 mil yesterday afternoon. Yeah, but did you get any decent drops? Ran Mordus Head Hunters 4 yesterday, ripping through Gigmars & Phanti's who were hard as hell to kill. Their cans? Medium Shield Booster 1 Miner 1 Small Armor Repairer 1... I got one decent large cannon after a hell of a lot of work. Seems CCP is intent on making missions amount to nothing. They made ME a General? What were all the 5 year old sissy girls busy? o_0 ... How'd he know!?!
Darkenral	Posted - 2006.10.02 00:44:00 - [140] Originally by: Fuujin Missions have been nerfed to hell?! this is news to me! made 350 mil yesterday afternoon. Well you either got lucky and got a faction drop or two (Almost unheard of) or ran a bunch of missions in a row and got a cpl of good storylines (Implant for Bonus) and then some decent lp offers (Skillbooks) ... either way that is the exception not the rule. Anyone can make 100mil in 4-5 hours but that requieres good missions, good skills, and a faction boat and gear. Rarely do all those factors come together @ 1 time. So while I trust that you are being honest about your uberific afternoon it is the exception not the reality for most folks running 1-2 missions in an hr or two. Dark
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.10.02 02:09:00 - [141] I can't come up with a good justification for locking cap ships out of missions. The above posts about it not having a huge impact on the game are right. For about the same amount of money, you can solo all missions in either a faction-equipped Navy Raven or a capital ship. The only real difference is the skill tree, which is considerably steeper for the capital ship. Why pull the rug out from under the PvE players? If the only reason is, "We didn't mean for carebears to use capital ships," then kudos to the carebears for adapting new tech so well. The Risk vs. Reward argument has been soundly refuted above, based on the inherent risk of flying a cap ship around all alone. I think it just hurts the devs' feelings to see carebears happy. They need to buff the Thorax, nerf gate guns and not let WCS fit on anything but Vagabonds before they're happy.
Mhostly Harmless Cheers Restaurant and Bar	Posted - 2006.10.04 19:54:00 - [142] Came back to look at this thread, expecting to see several pages of flames, but suprisingly it is not the case. Just thought I'd try to reply to you folks. I had a long reply typed in here but it was amazing anybody read the first 4000 char message so won't inflict that again. Basicly, thanks for reading the message and not flaming me to hell and back. I didn't post intending to quit the game over this change, just was disapointed by it. I liked having a cool looking big ship to fly, thats all realy. Overall only truely wasted about a month and a half on skills that only apply to a cap ship. And that is with my terrible stats, most probably wasted less time. Maybe later can employ those skills with some non-piratical 0.0 alliance. I'll miss flying 'Lumpy' around placid though. And you folks who replied about CCP hating mission runners are probably over reacting a bit. Seems more like CCP attacked a problem with high end complexes using a chainsaw instead of a scalpel, mission runners were probably not even a consideration. Realy, I know first hand that a domi/raven duo can beat level 4 missions FAR faster than a moros by itself. 2.5 billion isk buys alot of GTC for a little raven co-pilot alt... An Achura slave does wonders, truely.
Kruel	Posted - 2006.10.04 20:10:00 - [143] CCP should not have allowed dreads/carriers in deadspace from the getgo, rather than waiting until mission runners trained for/bought the ships, only to be let down. So what if it's a walk in the park to do lvl4s in a carrier. Who does it hurt? IMO lvl4s should all be in low sec and the scan probes should scan vertically. Then mission runners would have to worry about pirates, thereby balancing it out a bit. Let cap ships run missions... I mean who cares?
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.10.04 20:11:00 - [144] Originally by: Miranda Duvall Why not go for command ships? Command Ship >> Battleship for PvE at least (dunno about PvP, never done any, i'm a bloody carebear ) Somehow I doubt that (without having used a T2 BC, but I've played with Quickfit enough) - sure, they can tank better, but can they reach the damage output of a BS or even a faction BS?

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