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Mhostly Harmless Cheers Restaurant and Bar	Posted - 2006.09.29 07:13:00 - [1] Edited by: Mhostly Harmless on 29/09/2006 07:14:11 Yes, I am a noob. I dont have alot of skill points. I'm not in a 0.0 alliance. I am not uber. And I'm sure those of you who are will make fun of this post. My character was created near the end of 2004. I played eve with some real life friends and stayed in the noob corp. We all eventualy quit over an aparent lack of things to do as a group (that arent pvp. we dont want to be pirates.) Jump forward to new year 2006. One of those friends calls me up and says that we should try eve again, because he read about complexes and thought it might be kinda like dungeons. Somthing the four of us could do together. So we all pile on in again. I've got a vexor. We're all in cruisers, we all suck. We get our first battleships pretty slowly, including some ventures to lowsec for ore and missions. We made 20m isk in one day once, and thought that was cool. Spend more time in lowsec. Soon after we get our battleships we lose one guy. Then annother. Now its just two of us. We do missions together. Domi and Raven. We joined ORC, and thru them NORAD. we did some stuff in 0.0, not much. Outer ring kinda sucked. We had more fun in placid. Basicly just did missions, and only fought pirates if they presented a threat to the area. Anyway, by march we decide that we should set a new goal because we're gettin pretty good at the battleships. He pilots a raven, so he sets his sights on a caldari navy raven. I use a domi. There are no faction domis. There are no drone upgrades. Oh wait, whats this? Moros is a huge domi! a newer, bigger, cooler looking domi! We save alot of isk and while he's skilling missiles and such i'm grinding thru ship command skills. Did I mention our chars suck? I got a base per and wil of 5. Sure thats 18 after learnings and implants, but meh. During this time, ORC leaves NORAD, joins NFC, there some politics there. Whatever, 0.0 was boring. Mine mine mine, rat rat rat. Feh. Missions are kind of cool, a little story to go with the rats. So we pretty much stay in placid. June 20th patch hits and missions go weird for awhile. My compatriot just quits logging in. He was angry about the abrubt change with no word on what or why. Even though the mess made on june 20th was eventualy corrected, he just didnt care anymore so thats that. End of july I finaly meet the skill reqs for the moros. I've had one in the hangar in covryn for a month or so by this point. Two and a Half billion isk. Plus skills. Basicly all the money I made since March. Had lost a domi during this time, but aside from the 150m or so spent replacing that ship, all my money flowed into this project. I spent FIVE MONTHS. Training to this ship. Because it is the only real upgrade to my domi. And boy was it cool. All those missions I had to avoid now that my partner had quit? I could do em again. Worlds Collide? Sure! All the old encounter missions are gone for good now, but it doesnt matter I got the moros and can handle them all. Well, I could. Till the other day. When I log in before work and find out that overnight the developers have decided that moros is too good to be doing missions. One night and my five months is basicly wasted. Yeah yeah I got BS V out of it. True. But I'm back to the domi. and I've got nothing to look forward to. And yeah, yeah, I could seige POS or whatever. if I joined a pvp alliance. if I wanted to play that way. I've run the numbers. Domi is a good ship. It could fit a gist tank and actualy get realy realy good. Better than an armor tank even. If I sold the moros and bought faction / officer gear, i'm sure I could keep doing all the missions. If I retrained to use a raven, I could probably do them about as fast. But I like being a drone user. I like missions. I'm a lame carebear. And I feel cheated to have all this effort erased overnight with basicly no warning whatsoever. At least if pirates blew up my moros I could fight back and it would be my fault if I lost. I cant fight the devs. No recourse. Poof. Months of work. Gone.
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.29 07:20:00 - [2] I honestly feel sorry for you. I think it's **ty that CCP has been lax in putting Cap ships in their proper place. And barring them from places that CCP didn't want them to go. I think it's crappy that after all this time and all those missions many people now feel totally screwed out of their favored part of the game. It's bull**. But then again, so is using a carrier in a mission to grind isk for... for... wait, WTF is the isk for anyway? ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.09.29 07:24:00 - [3] if you quit, can I have your moros please? on a serious note, this is the first time i've understood what you mission running types are actually sorry about. As far as what you want from EvE is concerned, battleships are the glass sealing. It's sad however, as what you want from the game is only a small portion of what it offers . One thing I started to do with missions when I did them is attempting them in less able ships, eg, lvl 2's/3's in rifters and lvl 4's in a brutix, it's fun and can be extremely satisfying even though you may not be getting the LP/ISK per hour you'd be used to... which shouldn't matter should it, if you do missions because you enjoy them.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.29 07:27:00 - [4] Sadly you're missing something very important. That being, you have, and can fly, a Moros. You're quite useful to some people now, and you can always just go vaporize belt rats if you really need to npc in a capital ship. If you were using a Domi already, I can't see how it took 5 months to get to the moros. Ok BS V is a month, capship command is another month(?). If you spent those three months on engineering and mechanic-type skills, you probably needed them. Ofcourse, if you rush for something, you'll take awhile to get it, however if you're already skilled well with a battleship, dreads don't take too long to get. I think it'd take me 3 months to get into a dread, able to use cap shield boosters and seige mode. It'd be a good bit less if I didn't care about seigemode or having a real tank. Keep the moros, put iut to other use. Sit at a low-sec high-grade COSMOS area with sentry drones and obliterate the mission-runners who go their in their nice faction-fitted ships? Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Savio Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.09.29 07:43:00 - [5] As i recall the capital ship was never intended to do missions/complex dident the dev also say that? why not try to find somethign else to do than isk grind? find a purpos in eve life :) . Need a Sign? Click Here
Maria Ravenwind Gallente Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:02:00 - [6] I hear what you're saying, and understand what you're feeling. But I do not feel sorry for you. You simply cannot compare a Faction Battleship to a Capital Class POS sieging War Machine. The ship was designed to destroy Player Owned Stations, not farm isk in lvl 4 missions. There are literally thousands of people that run lvl 4 missions solo. There are even more thousands of people that go out, join a good corp, meet some friends that live on the other side of the world, and run lvl 4 missions together. I guess you'll just have to learn how to play the game like everyone else, without and I WIN button. Go insure your Moros, take it out and blow it up. The insurance will pay for you to fit a few Faction/Officer Module fitted Domis. That should almost be the same thing. I hate my Exclamation mark! I Am No Alt.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:09:00 - [7] this is not the game you are looking for. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:20:00 - [8] You skilled for months to get a carrier to PvE in it and you think CCP are the ones at fault? ---------- Nerf Caldaro!
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:22:00 - [9] Boo ***** hoo suck it up and adapt. Originally by:** Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
spurious signal Caldari Brainiacs	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:31:00 - [10] First of all well done to the OP for posting this without coming across like a whiny child, unlike most of the other people who've started threads about this carrier fix. Secondly, as others have said in this thread, your training time and obtaining of a carrier haven't been wasted - you still have the carrier, you can still fly one. You are potentially a valuable asset to any decent corp wanting to carve out or defend its own space in 0.0. Maybe you and your corp mates could consider adapting to a new type of existence in EVE - instead of making your money ratting or doing missions you could join an alliance and become part of their activities maybe? Or you could set yourselves a new goal - how about renting a moon from the ISS in E3-P8R and build yourselves a POS and use your carrier to help defend it if needed? There's a million ways to enjoy yourselves in EVE and I don't think mission running in a capital ship is one of the best ones
Fujiko MaXjolt	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:47:00 - [11] I can sympathize with you totally, dude. Back before the drone boost/redo/nerf/whatever, i had my eye set on a moros as an uber mining-boat for low-sec/0.0 - sadly, CCP decided that it shouldn't get a mining-amount bonus for the drones, and my goal was moot This isn't the first time, nor do i think it will be the last time, that CCP has removed unforeseen gameplay. Gameplay that doesn't harm anyone, but makes life in eve sweet for the people who discover it and think it's cool The Devs are just PvP-combat lubbers, and try to steer the the game towards everyone being forced into doing it, like it or not. And to all the 0.0/lowsec-nutters that are gonna say OMGZ!!1! mining in a dread, you nub! : We make the game fun for ourselves, you just have a different outlook than me
spurious signal Caldari Brainiacs	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Fujiko MaXjolt Gameplay that doesn't harm anyone Wrong. EVE is about risk vs reward. More risk = more reward. Mission running in capital ships = high reward, no risk. This breaks EVE, it undermines the economy and it makes a mockery of the mission system. And no, I'm not a "0.0 nutter", I'm a semi-carebear, but I can clearly see how allowing people to mission run in capital ships is wrong. I congratulated the OP on not sounding like a whiny child, but you've just added the required "whiny child" dose to complete this thread.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:59:00 - [13] I can appreciate that effort gone into training capitals for missions feels like a kick in the teeth. I'd probably feel a little sore one I'd just finished raven, tech 2 torps, etc. they told me they had the same limits. However please don't feel your training is useless. Carriers and Dreads, in the right situation are extremely valuable. I'd certainly be keen to talk to capital pilots about operations down in 0.0. It's not agenteering, but trust me, it's way more fun. And probably even safer than 0.1-0.4, as 0.0 tends to be. So please, put a post up on our forums, if you're intersted in other ways to gainfully employ your skill training. The same goes for any other newly thwarted carrier pilots out there.
Ruffio Sepico Minmatar Hidden Agenda	Posted - 2006.09.29 09:18:00 - [14] Originally by: spurious signal Originally by: Fujiko MaXjolt Gameplay that doesn't harm anyone Wrong. EVE is about risk vs reward. More risk = more reward. Mission running in capital ships = high reward, no risk. This breaks EVE, it undermines the economy and it makes a mockery of the mission system. And no, I'm not a "0.0 nutter", I'm a semi-carebear, but I can clearly see how allowing people to mission run in capital ships is wrong. I congratulated the OP on not sounding like a whiny child, but you've just added the required "whiny child" dose to complete this thread. Can only use capital ships in low sec and 0.0. Doing missions in low sec or 0.0 make the risk of doing these missions way higher. Its not the missions you have to worry to much about, its the players. There is already quite a few capital ships that been found "carebearing" and blown up. A handfull people can blow up a carrier/dread if they know what they are doing, and there is many who does. How many of you who flame this guy take the same risk as he do? Do you fly around in low sec doing missions in ship and fitting worth billions? Have you noticed the speed and agility of these ships? Its not like someone can RACE through missions with the. What they give is a false sense of security at most due to their better tanking ability. As for CCP claiming capital ships should be used as flagships in fleet battles and such. Sorry but Nelson didnt have 20 something HMS Victory's at Trafalgar either. Should only 2 capital ships be allowed into one grid at at a time to push it into that role? There is a difference between missions/deadpsace and complex in earning capacity. If they cant be allowed into complex's fine, but not allow them for missions is bad imho. I hardly do any missions myself, but I can see the point of view of those who do them. People doing missions is probably the crowd in EVE that been hit hardest by nerfbats. Oh and please before someone start rant about lvl 4's isnt meant to be done solo; Originally by: Zrakor There are a few misconceptions here. First of all, the level 4 missions aren't intended for a group. At first we planned having them group oriented (during the earlier stages of exodus) but we quickly realized that this would be a mistake, as it was too much of a jump from level 3 missions and the neccessary features couldn't make it in. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=157329&page=3 This was like one and a half year ago. Since then missions become harder, rewards less, CCP urges players to spread out, go to low sec, 0.0 etc. They introduce new toys and some make use of them to venture into these parts of the game. Then long time afterwards CCP says it wasnt intended to do so and so with them. That start to be a long tradition with CCP, to introduce things and then start throw the nerfbats around when player start use it the way they feel like and not the way CCP want them to. Oh and risk free ISK? Please stop GTC sales if that should be the punch line. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Steven Dynahir Gallente Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj	Posted - 2006.09.29 10:38:00 - [15] Originally by: Maria Ravenwind The ship was designed to destroy Player Owned Stations, not farm isk in lvl 4 missions. Yes, and SMS was designed to send messaged to control things like heating and stuff, not to farm isk from people sending them between mobile phones. Ok, so it was wasted design which users put it to better use. If CCP wants to blow up POS'ses, fine. But if users want to use it for other purposes, then allow them. --- Sell orders Recruitment
Jastra Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.29 10:51:00 - [16] I'm not sure flying a Moros qualifies you as a noob :) There are lots of fine and friendly anti pirate corps in Placid, as well as the pirate ones, lots of fun people hanging out there. Seriously, you're valuable to a corp now, I'm sure Coreli would like you on-board if you change your mind about pirating The other posters are mostly right though, doing missions in such a huge ship would have got very old eventually, the none-fixed content is where this game excels.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.09.29 11:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Steven Dynahir Originally by: Maria Ravenwind The ship was designed to destroy Player Owned Stations, not farm isk in lvl 4 missions. Yes, and SMS was designed to send messaged to control things like heating and stuff, not to farm isk from people sending them between mobile phones. Ok, so it was wasted design which users put it to better use. If CCP wants to blow up POS'ses, fine. But if users want to use it for other purposes, then allow them. Perfect example. Better use?!? The way the kids use SMS nowadays is as usefull like a hole in the head. Besides for running into debt at speed of light. Lvl 4 missions are too profitable as they are. Don't need capital ships doing them even faster.... --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Ruffio Sepico Minmatar Hidden Agenda	Posted - 2006.09.29 11:22:00 - [18] Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Steven Dynahir Originally by: Maria Ravenwind The ship was designed to destroy Player Owned Stations, not farm isk in lvl 4 missions. Yes, and SMS was designed to send messaged to control things like heating and stuff, not to farm isk from people sending them between mobile phones. Ok, so it was wasted design which users put it to better use. If CCP wants to blow up POS'ses, fine. But if users want to use it for other purposes, then allow them. Perfect example. Better use?!? The way the kids use SMS nowadays is as usefull like a hole in the head. Besides for running into debt at speed of light. Lvl 4 missions are too profitable as they are. Don't need capital ships doing them even faster.... Consider the speed and agility of them, you can probably do it faster in a Command ship. Or doesnt travel time to move around count for any? All missions doesnt happen in system either, which also would need you to make a jump, which also cost fuel that other ships doesnt have to worry about. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Rutoo Gallente Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.09.29 11:31:00 - [19] Training 5 months for a Moros? I'll trade you, i'm just finishing my training for naglfar which i started at least 7-8 months ago (training other skillz too) _________________________________________________________ My First EvE Video Club Seals Not Sandwichs
Ares Helix Gallente NunyaBizzness Omega Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:00:00 - [20] I agree with the feeling and sentiment, but most of all resoning behind the original, and subsequent supporting posts. I think the most level headed comment was for banning cap ships from Complexes, Yet allowing them to run missions. I think that would be an acceptable compromise. EVE is a game universe touted with 'No Holds Barred' For example, You can go and engage in PVP by attacking someone in a belt, or by ganking someone on system entry. No law against it. You can advertise a moros on escrow for a billion isk, only to sell that person a unit of tritanium. In a game universe as diverse as EVE is, why create a blanket rule like this before addressing more serious issues? The patch stated it would address server lag issues, not limit the gameplay of people who don't actively engage in PVP. I find PVP isn't to my liking, simply because I view the game as a social way to pass time and I enjoy the company of those I run missions with. Does this mean I should have my pilot's career options limited? For those saying yes at this point, go back to waiting for your next victim to jump in system. To those who can see the valid logic behind my argument, let us see how many of us it takes to stop playing before ccp get the idea. They made ME a General? What were all the 5 year old sissy girls busy? o_0 ... How'd he know!?!
Ilmonstre Minmatar 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:19:00 - [21] Originally by: Epsilon 1 Boo ******* hoo suck it up and adapt. please do not replyn if this is all you have to say. but i have to semi agree with the OP if they would just introduce a faction domi this wouldnt have happened so he is basicly screwed if he wants a nice pimped out ship to play with since there is no drone faction ship
Caerleus Board of Twenty	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:19:00 - [22] I honestly can't understad why anyone would find pleasure in running level 4 missions in a dread or a carrier. They are easy enough in a solo Raven. I only turn down two missions, Enemies Abound part 5 and Worlds Collide (Blood+Angels) as these two have insane DPS and I have no desire to spend huge amounts of money on a faction setup to allow me to do these. Some missions still remain a little challenge, requiring bouncing of shields and cap to complete without getting in to armor, but that provides for some entertainment from them. Running missions in capital ship must be the easiest way to boredom around. It simply was a means to an end. As for you now feeling as tho , you have wasted your training, I put it to you that its not the training youve wasted, but the application of it. Capital ships are PVP ships and should be used as such. And, PVP isnt 'just' about piracy. There are many avenues that you can go down in PVP and still remain a non pirate. Mercenaries, Roleplay PVP, alliance warfare or join somebody like ISS Navy that has a more neutral PVP policy. Your comment about missions made me laugh...quote. "Missions are kind of cool, a little story to go with the rats." Join an alliance or one of the above..then you can create the story and be part of something. I'm sure that any alliance would welcome a Dread pilot currently with the state of POS ping pong...and you dont get a much larger rat than that.:) Eve is like a new girlfriend - you know its going down at some point, its just when and for how long.
Lunarmist	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:23:00 - [23] I really don't think there should be a limite on ship usage. People should be able to fly the ship they paid for whatever the purpose they might choose. This is a game, why not let people have fun? If lvl 4 missions are too easy for capt ships, why not create harder missions? Such blanket nerf is bad for the game in general. Why pvp combat have to be the end all and be all answer to game content? Capt ships can only be used in low sec and 0.0 system. That is enough risk already and why not people who owns capt. ships to have some pve fun? Nerf bat is the always the easiest answer to everything isn't it? Seems that way...
spurious signal Caldari Brainiacs	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:23:00 - [24] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico snip Sorry for snipping your post there Ruffio, my post hit the word limit, had to trim it. True, you can get pirated when doing missions, I think that's great and it adds much-needed risk to missions. And yes, there may be several people doing this, but it's relatively rare compared to the number of people running level 4 missions. Just judging by the number of people complaining about this capital ship fix in the last few days this is something that has been happening a lot. So, personally, I don't think the tiny risk of having your carrier probed out and ganked during the 30-60 minutes it takes to complete a deadspace mission doesn't qualify as anything near the risk that should go along with the rewards. Clearly CCP agree... There are plenty of people mission running in very expensive ships. Faction BS? Faction gear? Tech 2 gear? I also feel that there needs to be more risk associated with higher-level missions but it's important to remember that the range of people doing these missions is huge. For instance, I run level 4 missions in a tech 2 fitted Raven. It costs me something like 80 mill to replace and re-insure if I lose it, and I do lose the odd ship (rarely these days but it only takes a bad lag spike on warp-in or for my PC to crash at the wrong time and I can be in a pod. On the other hand I know people who mission run in HACs. It takes them longer, it costs more to replace but they can happily sit there tanking the entire spawn of top level 4 missions without breaking a sweat. On the other other hand I have a mate who's just started doing level 4's in a Dominix. He struggles with them a lot and has lost 3 or 4 domi's in the last 2 weeks. It doesn't deter him, he keeps trying, he's getting better and he's learning more. If the missions were harder he couldn't do them. Good game design caters for a WIDE range of abilities and lets both hardcore and "casual" gain too. Yes, mission runners have been nerfed a few times, yes that's how it should be. CCP have said several times that they will continue to try and balance things and that they may not always get it right first time. Quote: Oh and risk free ISK? Please stop GTC sales if that should be the punch line. Agree 100% with that. Totally, unequivocally.
Ares Helix Gallente NunyaBizzness Omega Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:35:00 - [25] Edited by: Ares Helix on 29/09/2006 12:35:49 I run a Navy Mega through level 4's. I'm still nervous about taking it in and I'm in .6 space mostly, because insurance if I dod loose it would pay me SFA of its value (Insert fly what you can affor to loose rubbish response here) Fact is I think that the nerf in this instance was over zealous. As I said, I agree about plexes, designed for teams, less for solo but surely the idea would be to open L5 agents prior to making a move like this. Certainly this would be a better way forward to create a more balanced game, rather than forcing people into PVP. Since when has the CCP company motto been: Nerf them! Nerf them all to hell! They made ME a General? What were all the 5 year old sissy girls busy? o_0 ... How'd he know!?!
Kira Natel	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:39:00 - [26] CCP needs to stop touting EVE as a NO holds barred sandbox where you can do what you like as that really only applies to 0.0 alliances more and more. In the ever present forcing, pushing, cajoling, nerfing players to move to 0.0; these actions have and will fail again and again. Alot of players will choose another game over 0.0. While some of you will say great and give me your stuff, its a monetary loss to CCP that's just going to get bigger and bigger over time.
Gonada Gallente Cross Roads	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:42:00 - [27] OMG, pathetic loosers still posting bout this? from the start capital ships were not to be used in deadspace missons. capital ships are for fleet manuvers. grow up allrdy or leave -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:57:00 - [28] Now that is the crux of it. Every single piece of documentation on Dreads and Carriers has stated repeatedly that they would not supposed to be able to use gates of any kind (jump or accelleration). How did you manage to miss this rather important piece of information. This has nothing to do with nerfing mission runners, this has to do with game mechanics and game balance. Not to mention it doesn't make much sense for a jump gate to be off limits to a cap ship and the smaller accelleration gates to work just fine for one. And if you can't figure out what to do with a carrier or dread in this game, you have larger issues anyway.
Rick Dentill Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.29 13:00:00 - [29] A Dominix is perfectly suited to running missions, check out the ships and mods pages to get a good fitting. 2billion of dread is major overkill for level 4s. I didnÆt even realise gates could allow capital ships till they couldnÆt, wish I agree WorldÆs Collide is a pain in the bottom, but can be done if you think about it carefully. But really I would suggest making new friends if all your current ones are leaving the game. On the subject of comparing EVE ships to 18th/19th Century fleets, where does one begin. At Trafalgar nelson had 3 first rates, 4 second rates and 20 third rate ships. The Franco-Spanish, 4 first rates and 29 third rates. If we take a 3rd rate as being a battleship in eve, then at Trafalgar there were 11 capital ships out 60, a pretty high proportion really. _______ http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/page.php?id=dd
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics	Posted - 2006.09.29 13:10:00 - [30] Originally by: Gonada OMG, pathetic loosers still posting bout this? from the start capital ships were not to be used in deadspace missons. capital ships are for fleet manuvers. grow up allrdy or leave Originally by: Ivan Kirilenkov ISD Forum Moderator Please remember that even though you may disagree with people, you may NOT resort to personal attacks. Looking at your post history, you do this quite often As for the post, rufio has it right... Who are ccp to preach risk v's reward... when they dare to leave the very mechanisms in place that destroy the very principles of it... First and foremost.... ccp are a buisness.. Kieron said that, something you should all remember well when talking morales.. ccp do not in any way lead by example.... why should the players be called black My answer and destination is set:Linkage ______

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