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Capitals for alliances - what for the rest of us?

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Lisento Slaven Amarr The Drekla Consortium New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.09.30 05:11:00 - [31] Originally by: Ediz Daxx Haha.. are you really that dense that you think capital ships primary use was in missions? I only fly ships that make me money. Capital ships will no longer do that now. It's rather dense to think capital ships shouldn't be allowed to be used in ANY PVE avenue if you ask me, especially when Level 5's can quite possibly allow it. Level 5's shouldn't have increased LP gains. Just increased bounty gains and should always require group effort. --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.09.30 05:18:00 - [32] Originally by: Angry Alt Edited by: Angry Alt on 30/09/2006 04:52:08 I still cannot get past the whole CCP has been touting PvP as long as the game has been here. To paraphrase CCP "We give the players the tools, they choose what to do with them". Cap ships are afaik the only ships that are restricted from doing missions. So much for the CCP 'sandbox'. Again, there shouldn't be an "I Win" button for missions, however at least give those who have spent the time and isk to use these ships a PvE avenue. At this time, Capital Ships are the only types that are totally rebuked from missions, where's the 'sandbox' now? Gone. CCP has instituted an arbitrary artificial limit on how PvE players can advance. No matter how much you or CCP believes PvP is the be all and end all of EVE, it's not. Ask the 80%+ of empire dwellers. Why do you think the serious majority of people in EVE are in empire? Maybe a big chunk of people don't want to be forced into PvP? I'm fine with "nerfing" people from farming missions, but my main point is to allow those who have trained and spent the ISK and time to train for a Cap Ship to have something OTHER than PvP to do as a living. EVE as a sandbox, maybe in the past. Now, if you don't want/can't PvP all the time, your training has gone awry and unless you PvP. Your carrier/cap ship training time/ISK has been mostly wasted. CCP should practice what they preach and provide the tools for PvErs the means to make a living and not only in 0.0 fleet battles. Encouraging people toward a playstyle is one thing, forcing them is a whole other. Advertising "do what you want" and then artifically imposing limits on a legitimate playstyle, without any alternative, smacks of favoritism - toward the MINORITY of players. Put up or shut up really. If you 'claim' to be a sandbox in which people can play. Restricting a playstyle without an alternative just reinforces that CCP has no grasp on their playerbase. If a HUGE percentage (check the map) of people are staying in relatively 'safer space', is it CCP's vision to attempt to force people to play how they want, inspite of the 80-90% of people in empire smacking them in the face saying otherwise? Visions of how CCP think things should be is quaint versus the reality of the situation. Yes, it's their game. Sure they can do what they want. If the most significant portion of their playerbase is dissatisfied, are you catering more toward your ego rather than the playerbase/paying customers or just toward what you 'think it should be' despite the facts? Should EVE = WOW, heck no. Should CCP realize that a majority of people are NOT in 0.0 or low-sec? Heck yes. As much as CCP wants to force PvP down the throat of every player, it simply will not happen unless game mechanics change this. Now, I see CCP trying and failing horribly toward pushing everyone toward some vauge goal of total PvP. Where's the PvE advocates on CCP's staff, if there are any? If there's none, find someone who's passionate about the OTHER aspect of EVE that the majority of people are flocking toward. 30k users at once is seriously sweet for one cluster. Realizing that a little more attention to PvE would probably triple that (yes, more targets for you PvPrs :P), would be a huge step. It seems you're all stuck in 'our way or the highway' thinking. Check out your playerbase and maybe, think what a majority of the playerbase desires before shoving what you the dev team decides is the way it should be down our throats. to be honest, they should enforce the no alts rule in other sections besides Corp Alliance and Discussion Ore Mongers is recruiting
Trader Phil	Posted - 2006.09.30 05:34:00 - [33] Have capital NPCs like NPC dreads in seige mode (don't drop capital modules, just have large bounties or something) which vs another capital ship will rip them a new one without an amazing tank but vs a BS would be much easier to tank, or something like that. Obviously there would need to be tweaking so the isk/hr generated isn't unreasonable, but it would make it interesting for ppl who want to use their capital ships for missions and also those who like to group up w/ BSs for missions. As long as the missions are setup to make using a capital ship have disadvantages vs using a BS or multiple BSs it might work.
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.30 05:41:00 - [34] Edited by: Weirda on 30/09/2006 05:41:25 Originally by: Alessar Kaldorei ...sweet post... wins thread tbh. wish more people offer advice like him. it a long post - but if you gloss over it, you really should read it. __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now Stealth Bomber Tweaks
CYVOK Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.30 05:50:00 - [35] I understand your point of view. I have wanted to purchase and drive an Abrams Tank down 5th ave in New York for a long time but the US GovÆt keeps telling me I canÆt. I am board with my car, I have had the skill to drive it for over 10 years. There is nothing left for me to do in life. Seriously though. Capital ships arenÆt for Empire, they are to beat the crap out of your enemies in 0.0 space. If your looking for new challenges in Empire there are plenty to be had including all sorts of T2 ships, Cosmos Missions, Story Line Agents, Smuggling, Trading goods, merc work ectà Even in games like WoW you always need a team to get the best ôstuffö.
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.09.30 05:52:00 - [36] Edited by: Testicular Testes on 30/09/2006 05:52:38 Originally by: Angry Alt Edited by: Angry Alt on 30/09/2006 05:00:59 Originally by: Pattern Clarc LvL 5 missions would seriosuly increase inflation. The prices of the most expensive items would go up so fast that you'd be forced to do lvl 5 missions just to aquire decent items like implant sets or faction gear. (unless they where seeded in lvl missions) other than that, lvl 5 missions are actually one of the better points to come from this thread. That's exactly why I proposed making L5 missions giving a little more reward than L4s but making them SIGNIFICANTLY harder. Overall it would probably be an ISK sink as losing just one Cap Ship is a big loss and will take a lot longer to recover from. The L5 rewards would be maybe 10-15% more than L4s. It will still should take a lot longer to do L5s than L4s. It will most likely take Cap Ships + support or a couple Cap Ships to beat an L5, but with marginal increases to L4 missions, each participant won't see a huge gain compared to L4s. As low-sec only missions I would wholeheartedly agree, as long as those missions involve plenty of scrambling. Infact, theres nothing terribly wrong with carriers doing level 4s in lowsec really. They're probe-able and all, and while it's a bit of work, the odds of the target getting away if he keeps missioning are next to non-existant.
Noriath	Posted - 2006.09.30 05:55:00 - [37] People who are not in an alliance but want capitals are just plain annoying. You don't need capitals unless you're in an alliance, just because it's a very big ship you don't absoloutly have to have it. It's not designed to be used outside of 0.0 warfare anyways.
Carch Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.30 06:03:00 - [38] Edited by: Carch on 30/09/2006 06:05:12 Originally by: CYVOK I understand your point of view. I have wanted to purchase and drive an Abrams Tank down 5th ave in New York for a long time but the US GovÆt keeps telling me I canÆt. I am board with my car, I have had the skill to drive it for over 10 years. There is nothing left for me to do in life. Seriously though. Capital ships arenÆt for Empire, they are to beat the crap out of your enemies in 0.0 space. (they might not have any reason to fight in high sec but it might be a quicker route to where im going) If your looking for new challenges in Empire there are plenty to be had including all sorts of T2 ships, Cosmos Missions, Story Line Agents, Smuggling, Trading goods, merc work ectà Even in games like WoW you always need a team to get the best ôstuffö. why not in high sec? i dont want to do any missions with them at all. i want to beat the crap out of my enemies everywhere, includeing high sec space.
Nicholai Pestot Gallente Havoc Inc	Posted - 2006.09.30 06:59:00 - [39] Originally by: Carch why not in high sec? i dont want to do any missions with them at all. i want to beat the crap out of my enemies everywhere, includeing high sec space. [/quote I want 100 billion isk deposited into my account. This game works on not giving players what they want ________________ What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete
Android Mindslave Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.09.30 07:32:00 - [40] Uh... faction ships? Especially the cross race faction ships maybe? Learn another races skills? There is simply no way you have drones, lasers, missiles, hybrids, 4 races of ships, T2 ships, navigation skills, shield and armor tanking skills all maxed out. So really. Until such time as you can open your hanger, pick a from a selection of every single non-capital combat ship in the game fitted with the best possible setup, and you can't lower your mission clear times... You really can't claim there isn't anything 'more' to do on the PvE front. If your just bored with it, well that is on you. If your just spoiling to use a capital ship, then fine. But your going to have to accept that Capital ships were desinged as 100% group PvP ships. You can't even move your capital ship without having an alt or a gang member drop a cyno-field for you. Really. How was that not a clue-bat to the forehead in regards to the reality that you were flying a non-solo ship.

James Potkukelkka BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.30 08:16:00 - [41] if You want to play solo, You can do trading, missions, cosmos, pirating, bounty hunting, mercenarying, spying, manufacturing.. well, just about everything. Only thing you can't really do is the very big ships, but they are useless unless you have friends too, so not a big loss.
Zenitram	Posted - 2006.09.30 08:16:00 - [42] This brings up a question that I've had for a while: I've noticed that 0.0 players always ask why everyong hangs out in Empire space, but then they charge an arm and a leg for access or just kill you on sight if you enter without permission.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.30 08:35:00 - [43] Goto love the half brained kids, who respond to legitimate issues by suggesting this isnt wow..... HEY UPDATE FOR YOU TARDS, you got the games confused, if you want a game you need your uber guild to help you farm phat loot you play WOW. Eve is the mature gamers platform where you don;t need group hug with a bunch of teenagers to get everything done. Eve is the solo gamers game, it isnt built soley around the ***ness that is group hugging in your 0.0 alliance ultra carebear space. So if you wanna do group hugs with your corp mates so only YOU can have the best stuff go play WOW.
Carch Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.30 08:45:00 - [44] Originally by: Nicholai Pestot Originally by: Carch why not in high sec? i dont want to do any missions with them at all. i want to beat the crap out of my enemies everywhere, includeing high sec space. [/quote I want 100 billion isk deposited into my account. This game works on not giving players what they want i didnt ask what you wanted in your account. my question was why, (now that they are nerfed from missions) are capital ships restricted from high sec space. maybe if you wernt so quick to give a glib responce and just listed a few reasons i might agree. as for the game not giving players what they want i suggest you talk to ccp about that yourself. i already know how to get what i want out of this game myself
Glumpumpkin House Elf Liberation Front	Posted - 2006.09.30 08:55:00 - [45] OP, your logic is flawed. Missions are a means to an end, that end is isk. Missions aren't a replacement for PvP, they are analagous to mining or production, both of which enable a character to get into insecure space and lose ships without major consequence. Every game has an end, a last level, a point of no return which once you've passed it the mystery and fun is gone. If you're not willing to enhance your gaming experience by taking small PvP ships into 0.0 and engaging other players then maybe it's time you put EVE back on the shelf, because the game wasn't designed around you and your petty desire for MAXIMUM ISK, it was designed to encourage people getting into real space and having a blast killing each other. There are plenty of 0.0 corporations in which nothing is mandatory, and most any 0.0 corp would be glad to have a carrier pilot join. Drop a jumpclone in your favorite missioning system and start playing the EVE endgame in 0.0 space.
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.30 09:02:00 - [46] Originally by: Ediz Daxx Edited by: Ediz Daxx on 30/09/2006 00:21:24 Boohoo? This isnt WoW, not everyone can have everything. funny thing is - even WoW has it's high-level content (the high end raids) only accessible for groups of players and not solo-players if i'm not mistaken ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
Grez Minmatar The Raven Warriors	Posted - 2006.09.30 09:04:00 - [47] Dreads were designed for POS sieging, and Carriers were designed to give fleet support. Neither of them is supposed to be running missions, bar the dreads in a special 10/10 Sansha complex, because the structure at the end flings 100,000 EM damage torps at you at the end, and only a dread can tank it. --- Cache Clearer Still waiting for a Wrangler-edit!
Carch Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.30 09:21:00 - [48] Originally by: Zenitram This brings up a question that I've had for a while: I've noticed that 0.0 players always ask why everyong hangs out in Empire space, but then they charge an arm and a leg for access or just kill you on sight if you enter without permission. its not very fun playing king of the hill if your the one on top and no one cares to challenge you.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.30 11:11:00 - [49] Originally by: Carch Originally by: Zenitram This brings up a question that I've had for a while: I've noticed that 0.0 players always ask why everyong hangs out in Empire space, but then they charge an arm and a leg for access or just kill you on sight if you enter without permission. its not very fun playing king of the hill if your the one on top and no one cares to challenge you. 0.0 is about politics more than PvP. One of the key things about politics is looking after your own interests to the detriment of others. This is what 0.0 is. If you move into 0.0 and start competing for 'territory' (be it spawns, ore, complexes and soon 'boosters') then you start getting rich. Then someone else comes along and would rather they be rich rather than you. They then have the option to try and take away your fluffy toys. You then have an interesting real time strategy game, where you both jocky for position and try and assert their claim. If either party has any brains they'll convince everyone else in the area to support them in their action. They can do so in all manner of ways, but outright bribery is one of the more obvious. 0.0 alliances tend to be quite well entrenched, because they've invested a lot in their 'territory'. Building outposts, starbases, spare ships etc. But that's all for the taking, if you can. BoB are rich, and have good territory. That's a good reason to attack them, and try and take their stuff. Because then _you'll_ be rich and have good territory. Of course, BoB won't want to lose this nice territory, and their riches, thanks muchly, so they'll fight back. You then have a long chain of warfare, skirmishing, logistics battles, propaganda wars, or just plain smacktalking. And it'll be against some really challenging opponents (other players, and expecially in this example, BoB) and so if you win, it'll be a _real_ victory. If you do it right, you might even form a coalition to help accomplish it, and other parties who would also profit from you victory might back you in doing so. You get a fascinating poltical and diplomacy angle. Not that I'm advocating attacking BoB or anything, just they're one of the more prominent examples of a gung ho alliance with lots of Stuff(tm). The 0.0 'interplay' has an awful lot of depth to it, well beyond shooting sanshas for isk. It becomes a resource management strategy game. It opens up _so many_ roles. You need diplomats, you need strategists, you need fleet commanders, you need intelligence, you need logistics, you need ways of generating cash, you need starbases and outposts deployed and maintained, you need PvPers, you need miners. But most of all, you need a _team_. It's what makes EVE great.
Rick Dentill Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.30 11:38:00 - [50] you can still use capital ships in empire (well low sec empire) its just their intended roles was for station busting and pvp not uber tanking lvl 4 missions. Also given there are over 100 ships in eve, there are plenty of different things to train without ever going near battleshhips. I hear that t2 battlecruisers are good for missions, why not train something like that, or maybe try a different race. The possibiliies are near endless, use your imagination. Big is not always better anyway. _______ http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/page.php?id=dd

Celeste Coeval	Posted - 2006.09.30 11:39:00 - [51] Originally by: Ediz Daxx Originally by: Lisento Slaven All I know is I have no reason to buy a cap ship anymore =P I wonder how much the cap ship sales will drop now since a lot of people were using them for PVE. Hopefully lvl 5 missions will allow cap ships to be in there. Missions follow that whole hierarchy of ships. Frigs for lvl 1, cruiser lvl 2, BC lvl 3, BS lvl 4. Level 5 missions = you attack NPC-OS's (POS's) and other cap ships? =P Haha.. are you really that dense that you think capital ships primary use was in missions? Haha.. are you really that much of a troll that you cant see that people use ships for what THEY want not what YOU want. Also do you have any reason for trolling people? If you cant help the topic shove off.
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.30 12:20:00 - [52] Originally by: I M'Aspy I don't want everything and this isn't a whine. I've got battleship 5, tanking skills at 5, weapon skills at 5 etc... What am I working towards? You could always mine? Exhumors lvl5 will take a few months to get to

Ivan Kirilenkov Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.09.30 12:58:00 - [53] Removed some off-topic remarks and some trolling and personal attacks. If you disagree, do so in a civil manner. eve-crc.net \| forum rules \|[email protected] He's a mdoerator you know - Serathu

Gilbert Drillerson DarkStar 1 Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.30 13:15:00 - [54] I understand the reasoning of the original poster. When you reach SP levels of 35-45 million SP and dont have cap ship skills, you can fly basically anything else and fly it well. So if you are PVP oriented, there wont be much "new" stuff left except Capital ships or more of the same in different races. I dont see a solution tbh. Introducing Capital ships that can do basically anything in empire would by definition be unbalanced. So IF you reach those SP levels and are still in empire you have 3 choices, stay and become good at flying more races, quit eve or get involved in the 0.0 alliance-game... At the moment I dont think the end game for industrialists offer enough content to allow most people to have fun for 3-4 years, you max out your abilities in terms of SP pretty quick, so that isnt a path that most ppl will find rewarding. Dont get mad - Get even
Abrah	Posted - 2006.09.30 13:35:00 - [55] I M'Aspy, i've been thinking at that myself... whell i guess you can get a bs go in plexes do money and buy deadspace stuff or get them from dropes , after that fit them to youre carrier and dread so you have a uber setup , now get a little squad of noobs 3-6 in taclers and go kill as many prats as you can. OR fit the deadspace stuff to youre dread and get some contratcs from alliances ...like kill a couple of pos for money or find a couple of dread pilots and just go kill random pos in low sec. on another note ccp did gone to far with the restrictions ...because there are some cosmos missions very hard to do or impossible without a capital ship i do not undestand why they banned them from those missions , because they can only be done once / character and they are hard enough you can't even solo them in a capital ship. I M'Aspy, imput some of youre idees also... i to am looking for something else to do with cap ships except use them in alliance affares with i will do also , but i am to looking for something that i alone can do with them.
Carch Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.30 17:23:00 - [56] Originally by: Rick Dentill you can still use capital ships in empire (well low sec empire) its just their intended roles was for station busting and pvp not uber tanking lvl 4 missions. Also given there are over 100 ships in eve, there are plenty of different things to train without ever going near battleshhips. I hear that t2 battlecruisers are good for missions, why not train something like that, or maybe try a different race. The possibiliies are near endless, use your imagination. Big is not always better anyway. big is always better with what im wanting to do, namely busting pos's in low sec. but as im just getting to the capital training skills i see that the fuel costs are gonna be huge. or so it seems to me. now explain why i have to go around high sec instead of just cutting straight threw .5 or greater towards the target system which will have to be in low sec? if im wrong and its not gonna cost that much fine tell me that. but as for this neener neener attitude that i have to join an alliance to do what they want, well thats just not gonna happen unless they start paying me cash, providing benefits such as health insurance and a 401k.
Minikrimi Extreme Caldari Essence Privateers	Posted - 2006.09.30 18:00:00 - [57] Originally by: Carch well since capitals cant be used in missions or complexes anymore i see no reason what so ever that the capitals shouldnt be allowed into high sec space now. I just started training for capitals this week and i for one would like to use em anywhere i can go. such as wars in high sec as well as low sec. any reason we shouldnt? Um, yeah. What so many people seem to miss is that the characters we portray live in a persistant world with basic rules upheld by CONCORD and the Empires (but mostly CONCORD). There is a fictional base for Eve, even though most people seem to find it inconvenient to acknowledge it. Game logic was built around this fictional base. You cannot bring capital ships into "safer" areas because CONCORD does not want to have to deal with them. Sorry if the game setting is inconvenient for you. I happen to like it though.
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.09.30 18:18:00 - [58] Originally by: Minikrimi Extreme Originally by: Carch well since capitals cant be used in missions or complexes anymore i see no reason what so ever that the capitals shouldnt be allowed into high sec space now. I just started training for capitals this week and i for one would like to use em anywhere i can go. such as wars in high sec as well as low sec. any reason we shouldnt? Um, yeah. What so many people seem to miss is that the characters we portray live in a persistant world with basic rules upheld by CONCORD and the Empires (but mostly CONCORD). There is a fictional base for Eve, even though most people seem to find it inconvenient to acknowledge it. Game logic was built around this fictional base. You cannot bring capital ships into "safer" areas because CONCORD does not want to have to deal with them. Sorry if the game setting is inconvenient for you. I happen to like it though. If you're a new player, you're showing some understanding of the game there If only all new comers would research a bit like you before starting threads Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
AlphaBaker	Posted - 2006.09.30 18:21:00 - [59] well, the good news is that the price for mins is going to drop, now that the demand for capital ships is going to go down :)
Rhane Minmatar Two Guys Mining	Posted - 2006.09.30 19:27:00 - [60] Don't listen to some of these empty-headed goons. You don't have to be in an alliance or even 0 sec to do anything in eve except build an outpost, a titan, and participate in 0 sec wars. There's no reason why if you want a carrier/freighter you can't go get one. Build it, or buy it, both are readily available in large numbers on escrow for sale, or speak with someone in the ships channel. Even a dreadnaught is not that hard to obtain. What use you'll have for them is another story, but wth if you want one, go get it. My corp isn't in any alliance and we have freighters, carriers and dreads. Don't let anyone else tell you how to play the game, play how YOU want to. Ignore the ignorant opinions of the forum trolls who preach YOU MUST DO THIS TO PLAY RIGHT...because they are idiots.



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