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Sweaty Teeth	Posted - 2006.10.02 02:39:00 - [1] Now we all know that each race has it's pro's and cons. Gallente's big plus is their blasters, they do more damage than all other weapons in game. Amarr's big plus is their beams, they do the most damage per second of all long range guns (or so I thought, read on). But here's what gets me. Amarr guns have a built in damage bonus that comes with the built in penalty of cap usage. Then their ships all have a cap usage bonus that offsets the cap penalty so effectively, each Amarr ship is like it has a damage bonus in place of the cap usage bonus. Right? Long range is where Amarr guns are best so let's look at them first: Tachyon Beam Laser II does 25.9 dps without skills and without ship bonuses. 425mm Railgun II does 20.7 dps without skills and without ship bonuses. Sounds great right? But wait, Tachyon's have a build in damage bonus so that an Apoc has a cap usage boost and megathron has a damage boost. After you have battle ship 5 in each the numbers are: Tachyon Beam Laser II 25.9 dps (but uses almost as little cap as a railgun) 425mm Railgun II does .... 25.9 dps. Ta-da! Neat trick huh? Now let's look at blasters vs pulse lasers: Before bonuses the numbers are : Mega pulse II : 27.4 dps Neutron Blaster II : 32.0 dps. What?! And this is with the bonus built into the pulse lasers... after you get BS 5 the numbers are: Mega pulse II : 27.4 dps (but now uses almost as little cap as the blasters) Neutron Blaster II: 40.0 dps Blasters do 46% more dps than mega pulse and yet, our beams are dead equal to rails! Where's the justice? Here's how all the numbers were calculated in case someone is willing to double check my math: Neutron Blaster Cannon II damage multiplier = 4.2 rate of fire = 7.88 ammo damage base = 60 (this number doesn't matter, all ammo's are constant on damage amount, just different on damage type) dps = [damage multipler] * [ammo base damage] / [rate of fire] = 4.2 * 60 / 7.88 = 31.98 Please respond only to either the numbers accuracy or another difference that is between Amarr and Gallente's ships other than the quality of guns they use. I don't want to hear anyone saying "stop whining", since we've all ready hundreds of those posts and they don't add anything to the discussion. Thanks, Cold Sweat.
Cold Sweat	Posted - 2006.10.02 02:40:00 - [2] Now we all know that each race has it's pro's and cons. Gallente's big plus is their blasters, they do more damage than all other weapons in game. Amarr's big plus is their beams, they do the most damage per second of all long range guns (or so I thought, read on). But here's what gets me. Amarr guns have a built in damage bonus that comes with the built in penalty of cap usage. Then their ships all have a cap usage bonus that offsets the cap penalty so effectively, each Amarr ship is like it has a damage bonus in place of the cap usage bonus. Right? Long range is where Amarr guns are best so let's look at them first: Tachyon Beam Laser II does 25.9 dps without skills and without ship bonuses. 425mm Railgun II does 20.7 dps without skills and without ship bonuses. Sounds great right? But wait, Tachyon's have a build in damage bonus so that an Apoc has a cap usage boost and megathron has a damage boost. After you have battle ship 5 in each the numbers are: Tachyon Beam Laser II 25.9 dps (but uses almost as little cap as a railgun) 425mm Railgun II does .... 25.9 dps. Ta-da! Neat trick huh? Now let's look at blasters vs pulse lasers: Before bonuses the numbers are : Mega pulse II : 27.4 dps Neutron Blaster II : 32.0 dps. What?! And this is with the bonus built into the pulse lasers... after you get BS 5 the numbers are: Mega pulse II : 27.4 dps (but now uses almost as little cap as the blasters) Neutron Blaster II: 40.0 dps Blasters do 46% more dps than mega pulse and yet, our beams are dead equal to rails! Where's the justice? Here's how all the numbers were calculated in case someone is willing to double check my math: Neutron Blaster Cannon II damage multiplier = 4.2 rate of fire = 7.88 ammo damage base = 60 (this number doesn't matter, all ammo's are constant on damage amount, just different on damage type) dps = [damage multipler] * [ammo base damage] / [rate of fire] = 4.2 * 60 / 7.88 = 31.98 Please respond only to either the numbers accuracy or another difference that is between Amarr and Gallente's ships other than the quality of guns they use. I don't want to hear anyone saying "stop whining", since we've all ready hundreds of those posts and they don't add anything to the discussion. Thanks, Cold Sweat.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.10.02 02:46:00 - [3] Tracking differences, range differences... The rest of my response would be a waste of time because amarr whiners never seem to quit even when shown reason. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Deitre Cibrus Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.10.02 03:04:00 - [4] 1.) Damage per second on Structure : 80.308 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) 2.) Damage per second on Structure : 87.848 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) 1 is a geddon with 1x mega pulse II with max skills with conflag L 2 is a megathron with 1x Neutron Blaster Cannon II with max skills, with Void L Megathron just barely outdamages the geddon. ----------- Originally by: Santiago Cortes Please don't derail your own thread. What is this sig missing?
Aeaus Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.10.02 03:13:00 - [5] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Amarr whiners never seem to quit even when shown reason. I'm sure the whole EANM becoming standard and having Amarr primary damage halved on BS+ targets absolutely okay, reasonable, and not something to complain over. Join Tharsis! - Get Sexy Sigs
Cold Sweat	Posted - 2006.10.02 03:19:00 - [6] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Tracking differences, range differences... So let's consider tracking and range: Pulse vs blasters: Pulse weapons have much worse tracking and much better range. The combined effect is that they can hit things further out but up close they miss a lot and are ineffective. I plugged the weapon stats into the turret tracking guide and the neutron's are more effective if the target is less than 15 km away. More than 15 km away and the pulse are more effective. This is with a transversal setting of 100 m/s. If you play with the transversal a bit you see them move around a bit but the neutron blasters are consistently better for the fights I get into. beams vs rails: rails ahve better optimal and better falloff but worse tracking. Rails have a tracking of 0.009626 and tachyon beams have tracking of 0.01392. So the tach's have a 44% bonus to tracking over the rails. This is a bit of a mix to me. If you compare the megathron and Apoc you get the same damage over time per gun (although apoc has better bursts) and the megathron has 9% more range and about 6.5% less tracking. Pretty similar although the tactical advantage of doing more damage in a burst is in the Apocs favor. Cold Sweat
Sweaty Teeth	Posted - 2006.10.02 03:23:00 - [7] Originally by: Deitre Cibrus 1.) Damage per second on Structure : 80.308 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) 2.) Damage per second on Structure : 87.848 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) 1 is a geddon with 1x mega pulse II with max skills with conflag L 2 is a megathron with 1x Neutron Blaster Cannon II with max skills, with Void L Megathron just barely outdamages the geddon. But the megathron has only 1 damage bous, the geddon has 2, and yet the geddon still losses to damage and uses more cap / second to operate.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.10.02 03:37:00 - [8] Originally by: Sweaty Teeth But the megathron has only 1 damage bous, the geddon has 2, and yet the geddon still losses to damage and uses more cap / second to operate. 2 damage bonuses? I want your geddon. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Deitre Cibrus Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.10.02 03:43:00 - [9] Originally by: Sweaty Teeth Originally by: Deitre Cibrus 1.) Damage per second on Structure : 80.308 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) 2.) Damage per second on Structure : 87.848 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) 1 is a geddon with 1x mega pulse II with max skills with conflag L 2 is a megathron with 1x Neutron Blaster Cannon II with max skills, with Void L Megathron just barely outdamages the geddon. But the megathron has only 1 damage bous, the geddon has 2, and yet the geddon still losses to damage and uses more cap / second to operate. Geddon with conflag hits out to 25km range(15km optimal, 10km falloff) Megathron hits out to about 15km range(3.4km optimal, 12km falloff) Geddon with Scorch L gets 55km range(45km optimal, 10km falloff) Megathron with Null L gets about 26km range(11km optimal, 15.6km falloff) So the geddon is superior in range, and never has to reload. Geddon uses 4.41176470588 cap/sec per gun with conflag Megathron uses 3.00925925926 cap/sec per gun with Void So yes, a geddon does use more cap second, but not everything in this game can be the same, lasers are meant to use more cap/sec than any other weapons,hence why amarr generally have better cap than all other races to make up for it. So stop whining, amarr isn't as bad as whiners make it sound. ----------- Originally by: Santiago Cortes Please don't derail your own thread. What is this sig missing?
Nifel Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.02 03:55:00 - [10] Originally by: Cold Sweat Long range is where Amarr guns are best so let's look at them first: Tachyon Beam Laser II does 25.9 dps without skills and without ship bonuses. 425mm Railgun II does 20.7 dps without skills and without ship bonuses. Sounds great right? But wait, Tachyon's have a build in damage bonus so that an Apoc has a cap usage boost and megathron has a damage boost. After you have battle ship 5 in each the numbers are: Tachyon Beam Laser II 25.9 dps (but uses almost as little cap as a railgun) 425mm Railgun II does .... 25.9 dps. Ta-da! Neat trick huh? Apoc gets one more gunslot, armageddon gets rof bonus. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.02 07:50:00 - [11] Originally by: Cold Sweat Now let's look at blasters vs pulse lasers: Before bonuses the numbers are : Mega pulse II : 27.4 dps Neutron Blaster II : 32.0 dps. What?! And this is with the bonus built into the pulse lasers... after you get BS 5 the numbers are: Mega pulse II : 27.4 dps (but now uses almost as little cap as the blasters) Neutron Blaster II: 40.0 dps Blasters do 46% more dps than mega pulse and yet, our beams are dead equal to rails! Where's the justice? Now try to do a sound analysis, and compare Mega Pulse II's on an Armageddon to Neutron II's on a Megathron, recalling that a 25% bonus to RoF is actually a 33% DPS bonus... ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Susa Ou	Posted - 2006.10.02 09:38:00 - [12] it has to be an Apoc vs. a Mega with drones added in. Without a shadow of a doubt, the mega will do more dps. With the way things are these days in EvE, Megas are the most powerful battleships for most roles.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.02 11:42:00 - [13] Edited by: Aramendel on 02/10/2006 11:44:33 Originally by: Vicious Phoenix 2 damage bonuses? I want your geddon. It's called the increased base damage of lasers. Lasers have a higher damagemod/sec than other weapons and in exchange need the cap reduction bonus to be able to sustain fire. For all intents and porpuses amarr ships always have 1 damage bonus. The first ship bonus makes them able to use it without draining their cap too fast. For example, a 250mm rail and a heavy beam have after skills & reload almost exactly the same raw dps (rail has 2% more). For pluse vs blasters of the OP. Blasters have way way WAY less range than pulses - their dps relation is balanced. The only problem is the nonexistance of a 30k disruptor, so amarr pulse (and minnie AC) ships cannot use their range advantage to a mega since with null it still does more dps than them up to 20k.
Commander Thrawn Tarnak inc.	Posted - 2006.10.02 11:52:00 - [14] Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 02/10/2006 11:53:09 Originally by: Deitre Cibrus Originally by: Sweaty Teeth Originally by: Deitre Cibrus 1.) Damage per second on Structure : 80.308 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) 2.) Damage per second on Structure : 87.848 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) 1 is a geddon with 1x mega pulse II with max skills with conflag L 2 is a megathron with 1x Neutron Blaster Cannon II with max skills, with Void L Megathron just barely outdamages the geddon. But the megathron has only 1 damage bous, the geddon has 2, and yet the geddon still losses to damage and uses more cap / second to operate. Geddon with conflag hits out to 25km range(15km optimal, 10km falloff) Megathron hits out to about 15km range(3.4km optimal, 12km falloff) Geddon with Scorch L gets 55km range(45km optimal, 10km falloff) Megathron with Null L gets about 26km range(11km optimal, 15.6km falloff) So the geddon is superior in range, and never has to reload. Geddon uses 4.41176470588 cap/sec per gun with conflag Megathron uses 3.00925925926 cap/sec per gun with Void So yes, a geddon does use more cap second, but not everything in this game can be the same, lasers are meant to use more cap/sec than any other weapons,hence why amarr generally have better cap than all other races to make up for it. So stop whining, amarr isn't as bad as whiners make it sound. in any short range engagement, you needs to be within 20km to lock down you target a geddon will never be outside 20km if he has any hopes in keeping you mega there. therefore the 45km optimal is useless and that means out of 20km we have 5km if which we outdamage a mega, not 10 which would be nice. but 5 out of 20k
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.02 12:04:00 - [15] Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Amarr whiners never seem to quit even when shown reason. I'm sure the whole EANM becoming standard and having Amarr primary damage halved on BS+ targets absolutely okay, reasonable, and not something to complain over. If EANM are unbalanced then base armor resist are unbalanced(and invulnerability field as well, and thus shield resists). All an EANM does is increase each resist equally. Could almost compare it to a straight damage reduction. 1 EANM II decreases all gun's damage by 20%-25%. For me personally I still prefer the 3 hardener setup most of the time(a couple exceptions). So is it a problem of the EANM? Or is it a problem of the base resists? ... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Commander Thrawn Tarnak inc.	Posted - 2006.10.02 12:17:00 - [16] Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 02/10/2006 12:17:25 Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Amarr whiners never seem to quit even when shown reason. I'm sure the whole EANM becoming standard and having Amarr primary damage halved on BS+ targets absolutely okay, reasonable, and not something to complain over. If EANM are unbalanced then base armor resist are unbalanced(and invulnerability field as well, and thus shield resists). All an EANM does is increase each resist equally. Could almost compare it to a straight damage reduction. 1 EANM II decreases all gun's damage by 20%-25%. For me personally I still prefer the 3 hardener setup most of the time(a couple exceptions). So is it a problem of the EANM? Or is it a problem of the base resists? its a problem with eanm and the added compasation skills. 2eamnII and a DC works better then 3 hardeners. its a fact, therefore most ppl use them and that means the already 60%em resistance that never got booster with 3 hardeners, is now always boosted and now the highest resistance on armor tanks. shields are also a problem with invuls, however... only 1/3 of ships shield tank and even alot of those prefer to stick jammers in mids and armor tank. which mean the vast majority of ships armor tank. that means amarr has the worst dmg type in game atm
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.02 12:19:00 - [17] Well, considering 2 EAN2 + 1 DC gives you +48% resistance vs all (with lvl 4 in the comp skills) and in addition acts like a plate with the hull resists of the DC and needs no cap and needs less cpu than a 3 harderner oufit the only, singular reason to fit a 3 harderner outfit is the price. 2 EAN2 + 1 DC are better everywhere else. And, yes, the problem are the base resistances. Or the shield/armortanker relation - the base resistances would be ok if we had a 50:50 distribution there. But we haven't. Right now an optimistic guess would be 1 out of 5 ships shieldtanking in PvP. Even with the med/lowslot balance fixed (which nerfing ECM alone won't accomplish) we have still from the basic shipdistribution twice as many armortankers than shieldtankers.
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.02 13:11:00 - [18] Originally by: Commander Thrawn Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 02/10/2006 12:17:25 Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Amarr whiners never seem to quit even when shown reason. I'm sure the whole EANM becoming standard and having Amarr primary damage halved on BS+ targets absolutely okay, reasonable, and not something to complain over. If EANM are unbalanced then base armor resist are unbalanced(and invulnerability field as well, and thus shield resists). All an EANM does is increase each resist equally. Could almost compare it to a straight damage reduction. 1 EANM II decreases all gun's damage by 20%-25%. For me personally I still prefer the 3 hardener setup most of the time(a couple exceptions). So is it a problem of the EANM? Or is it a problem of the base resists? its a problem with eanm and the added compasation skills. 2eamnII and a DC works better then 3 hardeners. its a fact, therefore most ppl use them and that means the already 60%em resistance that never got booster with 3 hardeners, is now always boosted and now the highest resistance on armor tanks. 2 eanm + DC is not better then 3 T2 hardeners, when just considering the armor resist increase. The added structure resists are good however(especially for the gallente with their high structure hp). I get 84 - 53 - 60 - 65 with 2 eanm II and a named(+13%) DCU. OTOH I get 70 - 59.5 - 66.25 - 70.75 with 3 T2 hardeners. For overall resists I'd prefer 3 hardeners(the DCU adding to structure as well though is also handy). 3 T2 hardeners is still better on resists then eanm and dcu, however the eanm+dcu adds the benefit of effectively doubling hull and adding resists against Amarr(Nobody remembers the Gankgeddon era?). Originally by: Commander Thrawn shields are also a problem with invuls, however... only 1/3 of ships shield tank and even alot of those prefer to stick jammers in mids and armor tank. which mean the vast majority of ships armor tank. that means amarr has the worst dmg type in game atm Yeah there are not many ships that really shield tank currently. That's partly caused by a lack of mids on some ships and that in pvp fitting a shield tank means sacrificing things like ab/mwd, scramblers, webbers that are important for pvp. ... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.02 13:20:00 - [19] Originally by: Aramendel Well, considering 2 EAN2 + 1 DC gives you +48% resistance vs all (with lvl 4 in the comp skills) and in addition acts like a plate with the hull resists of the DC and needs no cap and needs less cpu than a 3 harderner oufit the only, singular reason to fit a 3 harderner outfit is the price. 2 EAN2 + 1 DC are better everywhere else. And, yes, the problem are the base resistances. Or the shield/armortanker relation - the base resistances would be ok if we had a 50:50 distribution there. But we haven't. Right now an optimistic guess would be 1 out of 5 ships shieldtanking in PvP. Even with the med/lowslot balance fixed (which nerfing ECM alone won't accomplish) we have still from the basic shipdistribution twice as many armortankers than shieldtankers. I rarely use 2 eanm2 + dc tank currently. I still prefer the 3 hardener setup. if I use the 2 eanm + dc setup I have a hole in explosive resist that berserkers just love chewing on. There is only one occasion where I'd use a Eanm setup and when I fit that I don't have enough lows to also use a dcu. On the shield tankers/armor tankers relation. Untill there is a change so that you can shield tank in pvp and not have to sacrifice pvp mods for it, there will be more shield tankers. Gallente = Armor tankers(Dominix could if really wanted shield tank) Amarr = Armor Caldari = shield Minmatar = Armor or shield(eg. Typhoon is clearly armor, Tempest can choose though will in most cases go for armor to have the mids for other essentials) ... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.02 14:12:00 - [20] Originally by: Reatu Krentor I rarely use 2 eanm2 + dc tank currently. I still prefer the 3 hardener setup. if I use the 2 eanm + dc setup I have a hole in explosive resist that berserkers just love chewing on. There is only one occasion where I'd use a Eanm setup and when I fit that I don't have enough lows to also use a dcu. Thats comparing a 4 harderner setup (3 actives + dc) vs a 3 harderner setup.. Also at non-minnie ships using a 3 active + DC set will result in an just as big EM hole. Quote: On the shield tankers/armor tankers relation. Untill there is a change so that you can shield tank in pvp and not have to sacrifice pvp mods for it, there will be more shield tankers. Gallente = Armor tankers(Dominix could if really wanted shield tank) Amarr = Armor Caldari = shield Minmatar = Armor or shield(eg. Typhoon is clearly armor, Tempest can choose though will in most cases go for armor to have the mids for other essentials) To repeat myself: Even with the med/lowslot balance fixed (which nerfing ECM alone won't accomplish) we have still from the basic shipdistribution twice as many armortankers than shieldtankers. If we assume a 100% armotank distribution for amarr and gal (dominix could shieldtank, but considering the only really useful thing he can put in his lows is an armortank the vaste majority of all setups won't shieldtank), 50:50 armor/shield for minnie, and 100% shield for caldari we get 62.5% armortankers, 37.5% shieldtankers. Now add that quite a few caldari ships won't be able to shieldtank & fit their combat role effeciently (scorpion, rook for example) and the majority of all frigates will use an armortank unless low slot tackling modules are introduced and you come loser to a 66:33 relation, aka 2:1. Under perfect conditions.
Frools No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.02 15:01:00 - [21] Originally by: Reatu Krentor I rarely use 2 eanm2 + dc tank currently. I still prefer the 3 hardener setup. if I use the 2 eanm + dc setup I have a hole in explosive resist that berserkers just love chewing on. There is only one occasion where I'd use a Eanm setup and when I fit that I don't have enough lows to also use a dcu. with level 4 comp skills on base amarr armour 2 eanmII + iffa = 79/58/61/66 + structure resists + small shield resist exp/kin/th t2 hardeners = 60/64/66/70 exp/kin/th n-types = 60/60/62/67 2 eanmII + iffa = 77cpu 3 t2 hardners = 132 cpu 3 n-types = 96 cpu i go with 2x eanm + dcu for several reason 1. exp/kin/th resists are very similar, slightly lower though 2. 'free' EM resist 3. structure resist 4. it actually fits!
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.02 15:32:00 - [22] Edited by: Tassi on 02/10/2006 15:32:29 Blasters still have higher DPS without boni than lasers. Neutron blaster II: 0.53 dmg mod Mega pulse II: 0.45 dmg mod (both with ROF factored in and no skills) So where is our inbuilt dmg bonus? blasters have better tracking aswell. Ever tried to shoot an EANMt2 + dc tanked blasterthron with scorch from 40km? Do that and than tell me OMG OMG AMARR OWNZORZRZRZRZ EANMt2 + dc tanked blasterthron will own a geddon even from 30km.
Siakel	Posted - 2006.10.02 15:49:00 - [23] Note also that the OP is comparing Tachyon Beam Lasers, which are 'oversized' larger-than-the-rest Lasers to 425mms that are supposed to be balanced to Mega Beam Lasers. The fact that they do the same DPS is worrisome, but I don't know if the OP took reload time into account, in which case the Tachyons would gain a bit more over the 425mms. But is it enough?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.02 16:22:00 - [24] Edited by: Aramendel on 02/10/2006 16:23:55 Assuming max skills: 425mm Rail II: 0.948 DM/sec without reload, 0.914 DM/sec with reload Mega Beam II: 0.878 DM/sec on apoc, 1.17 DM/sec on arma Tachyon Beam II: 0.949 DM/sec on apoc, 1.265 DM/sec on arma Full gun rack: Megathron, 7 425 II: 6.638 DM/sec for fights shorter than 4.5 minutes (= time it takes to fire a 425mm rail empty), 6.398 DM/sec for longer fights of continuous fire Apocalypse, 8 Mega Beam II: 7.024 DM/sec, 8 Tachyon Beam II: 7.592 DM/sec Aramageddon, 8 Mega Beam II: 9.365 DM/sec, 8 Tachyon Beam II: 10.123 DM/sec So Amarr BS do higher base dps than the mega. This isn't because the lasers, though, but because they have an additional dps bonus or weapon slot. Also note that an arma with tachyons will not be able to mount any meaningful tank. Also on the frigate and cruiser lvl the amarr ships do not have these advantages. The ships there do not have additional dps boni or gunslots, so beam laser dps there falls under rail dps.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.02 16:53:00 - [25] Originally by: Commander Thrawn its a problem with eanm and the added compasation skills. 2eamnII and a DC works better then 3 hardeners. its a fact, therefore most ppl use them and that means the already 60%em resistance that never got booster with 3 hardeners, is now always boosted and now the highest resistance on armor tanks. So basically you want EM to be the lowest hardened shield resist and EM to also be the lowest hardened armor resist?
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.02 16:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Tassi Blasters still have higher DPS without boni than lasers. ... So where is our inbuilt dmg bonus? Having a built-in dmg bonus does not necessarily mean that the gun will do more damage than other guns.
Novan Leon	Posted - 2006.10.02 17:06:00 - [27] All things balanced, shouldn't the lasers have a higher DPS in most situations than hybrids? Given the Amarr's sole reliance on lasers to deal damage in comparison to the other races's multiple weapon options, I would think so. Note: I don't fly Amarr and I don't use turrets as my primary so this is just speculation. ----------------------- Hey you! Obey the fist!
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.02 17:14:00 - [28] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 02/10/2006 11:52:36 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Now try to do a sound analysis, and compare Mega Pulse II's on an Armageddon to Neutron II's on a Megathron, recalling that a 25% bonus to RoF is actually a 33% DPS bonus... And also a 33% increase of the weapon cap drain. And at closer range the pulse tracking suffers much more then the blaster tracking. But overall pulses and blasters are balanceed vs each other. At least if we ignore base resistances and the problem of using the pulse range advantage without a tackler (which is not making it "balanced", a mega with a tackler can also warp in at point blank range, for example). And as a sidenote, regarding that locked post: A mega with MWD & blasters won't be able to continously run a dual rep tank even with an injector, yes, but neither will be an arma with pulses...so... Yes but his point was about raw DPS - nothing else, missing off the ship bonus simply distorts the picture. But anyway, different tools balanced for different jobs, won't see a Blasterthron hitting targets out to 50km for 85% accuracy (Scorch), won't see an Armageddon chewing up opponents at 3-5km as efficiently, nor should you. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.10.02 17:23:00 - [29] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Commander Thrawn its a problem with eanm and the added compasation skills. 2eamnII and a DC works better then 3 hardeners. its a fact, therefore most ppl use them and that means the already 60%em resistance that never got booster with 3 hardeners, is now always boosted and now the highest resistance on armor tanks. So basically you want EM to be the lowest hardened shield resist and EM to also be the lowest hardened armor resist? Of course not, what we want is to UP the shield EM resist to, say, 20%, and lower the EM armor resist to a base 40%. Then you'd have balance... ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Trigger Sterling Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.02 17:33:00 - [30] Edited by: Trigger Sterling on 02/10/2006 17:33:34 Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 02/10/2006 16:23:55 Assuming max skills: 425mm Rail II: 0.948 DM/sec without reload, 0.914 DM/sec with reload Mega Beam II: 0.878 DM/sec on apoc, 1.17 DM/sec on arma Tachyon Beam II: 0.949 DM/sec on apoc, 1.265 DM/sec on arma Full gun rack: Megathron, 7 425 II: 6.638 DM/sec for fights shorter than 4.5 minutes (= time it takes to fire a 425mm rail empty), 6.398 DM/sec for longer fights of continuous fire Apocalypse, 8 Mega Beam II: 7.024 DM/sec, 8 Tachyon Beam II: 7.592 DM/sec Aramageddon, 8 Mega Beam II: 9.365 DM/sec, 8 Tachyon Beam II: 10.123 DM/sec So Amarr BS do higher base dps than the mega. This isn't because the lasers, though, but because they have an additional dps bonus or weapon slot. Also note that an arma with tachyons will not be able to mount any meaningful tank. Also on the frigate and cruiser lvl the amarr ships do not have these advantages. The ships there do not have additional dps boni or gunslots, so beam laser dps there falls under rail dps. My 'Geddon only has 7 turret slots. :(

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