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Terisok Ministry of War Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2011.12.04 07:58:00 - [31] - Quote The interbus customs office "only" have 15 million hit points. This is alot to handle alone, but it CAN be done. My suggestion would be to make some friends and get them to help you. I myself just set up my own POCO. I actually got the local pirates to help me out - turns out they aren't that happy about PI taxes either. With 4 ships it took us about 1.5 hours to pop the Interbus customs office. This is MUCH easier and MUCH faster than a POS bash. Don't want to trust other players? Get yourself a nice, cheap, expendable high DPS Amarr ship (see: Oracle), go out to some backwater low sec system with an updated implantless clone and go AFK while your lasers do the rest of the work for you. If someone pops and pods you, then try again in a different system and/or a different time. OR you could hire someone to pop some Interbus customs office for you. I'm sure you could find someone willing to do this for you - for the right price.
Helicity Boson Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 92	Posted - 2011.12.04 09:26:00 - [32] - Quote Jim Hooknose wrote: To sum it up: +1 non-empire space and -1 empire = BAD +1 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD Hell even, +2 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD +1 non-empire space and -1 empire = PI goods become more valuable +1 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = Inflation +2 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = even more inflation Inflation is Bad.
Cygnet Lythanea World Welfare Works Association 24	Posted - 2011.12.04 10:05:00 - [33] - Quote THe problem is that as things stand it's -1 to non Empire, -1 to Empire. The long term effects are not yet clear, but it is likely top drive T2 higher. Which is bad for new players, and hence, bad for the game. Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium
rodyas Tie Fighters Inc 38	Posted - 2011.12.04 14:11:00 - [34] - Quote PipBrown wrote: I don't understand the fuss from player unhappy with the changes to PI taxes. Why can't they just increase the price of the product to offset any incurred taxes. Offsetting the cost would work if missions made more isk, then you could easily raise your prices to compensate and the majority of the playerbase would be there still to greet you. But I only make so much isk from missions this is more like people not making house payments and you are wondering why its so hard to pay more so you dont lose money as well or so.
Taedrin Kushan Industrial 159	Posted - 2011.12.04 17:46:00 - [35] - Quote Cygnet Lythanea wrote: THe problem is that as things stand it's -1 to non Empire, -1 to Empire. The long term effects are not yet clear, but it is likely top drive T2 higher. Which is bad for new players, and hence, bad for the game. I disagree, higher T2 prices make T1 more competitive which is BETTER for new players.
Esunisen Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous 16	Posted - 2011.12.04 17:50:00 - [36] - Quote Jarnis McPieksu wrote: Heck, if you are unhappy with the price, just keep stockpiling. The price will go up. Then you sell them all in one go when the price readjusts to a level you find reasonable. I'm myself doing exactly that with some other goods. If I stockpile I make negative income because I still have to pay the taxes to import/export, you should read Econ 101 again
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba Perkone Caldari State 9	Posted - 2011.12.04 18:27:00 - [37] - Quote So errrr... no when figures that a lot of the market is stock pile because when CCP says they are raising taxes on a product in a month that's what you would do. I made some easy ISK from this. How long has Crucible been out? Feedback will take a while. I'm making alright money for something which takes me about 15mins a day to do. Breaking even at about 5 days then making a about ~5 million a day with minimal effort. Oh no wait it's rubbish everyone quit.
Xuzi Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2011.12.05 08:54:00 - [38] - Quote Get a grip folks. PI products adjusted drastically from their original NPC prices when PI was introduced and have been in constant flux ever since. These readjusted base prices are a relatively dramatic change to tax costs that will have a correspondingly dramatic impact on market price. Overwhelming demand is still out there, as long as there is demand there is potential for profit, as long as there is a potential for profit there will be an impulse to supply. Changes happen to the economy all the time in this game. Adaptation or stagnation? Which sounds like more fun? I love it!
Xuzi Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2011.12.05 09:04:00 - [39] - Quote Cygnet Lythanea wrote: THe problem is that as things stand it's -1 to non Empire, -1 to Empire. The long term effects are not yet clear, but it is likely top drive T2 higher. Which is bad for new players, and hence, bad for the game. In the majority of cases, PI products are only a small fraction of T2 manufacturing costs. Especially true with T2 ship hulls. If you want cheaper T2 hulls, talk to the null sec moon miners. If anything higher PI prices allow individual PI producers to take a bite out of all those wallets maintaining null sec towers. A very small bite.
Lord Zim Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 212	Posted - 2011.12.05 09:07:00 - [40] - Quote Esunisen wrote: Jarnis McPieksu wrote: Heck, if you are unhappy with the price, just keep stockpiling. The price will go up. Then you sell them all in one go when the price readjusts to a level you find reasonable. I'm myself doing exactly that with some other goods. If I stockpile I make negative income because I still have to pay the taxes to import/export, you should read Econ 101 again So sell enough to enable you to keep paying the taxes and whatever other expenses you may have and stockpile the rest until you see the prices are getting up to a reasonable level?
Xuzi Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2011.12.05 09:20:00 - [41] - Quote Helicity Boson wrote: Jim Hooknose wrote: To sum it up: +1 non-empire space and -1 empire = BAD +1 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD Hell even, +2 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD +1 non-empire space and -1 empire = PI goods become more valuable +1 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = Inflation +2 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = even more inflation Inflation is Bad. In case anyone missed this excellent point, PI taxes are an ISK sink. In theory a buffed up PI ISK sink will help offset some of the inflation introduced by ISK being injected into the game by incursions. Less inflation, lower prices for everyone.
Lord Zim Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 212	Posted - 2011.12.05 09:46:00 - [42] - Quote Helicity Boson wrote: Jim Hooknose wrote: To sum it up: +1 non-empire space and -1 empire = BAD +1 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD Hell even, +2 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD +1 non-empire space and -1 empire = PI goods become more valuable +1 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = Inflation +2 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = even more inflation Inflation is Bad. PI taxes on NPC Customs Offices are an isk sink, and this actually does help defeat inflation. As to the rest of Helicity's post, I've no idea what he's talking about inflation for, it's not like PI is spawning ISK out of thin air, the stuff you create through PI is just facilitating an ISK transfer. As has been stated multiple times before, a module becoming more expensive doesn't necessarily constitute inflation, the ISK being used to buy the module being valued less would constitute inflation. And PI being performed on NPC Customs Offices helps deflate ISK because the ISK spent there just goes poof, whereas PI being performed on POCOs is just transferring ISK to the alliance/corp which owns the POCO.
Steven Fonulique SF Incorporated 3	Posted - 2011.12.05 10:33:00 - [43] - Quote Silly me hit post without copying contents, lets try again . First thing I'd like to state very clearly is PI is STILL very profitable. The reason why it's still profitable is because taxes are based on the average market value of each tier of product and set to 10% of that value in high sec. For simplicity we'll pretend that before crucible was launched taxes for high sec imports and exports were free. Now lets look at the base prices ccp are using for determining just exactly how much isk that 10% on the customs office is: Gùª Advanced Commodities: 1,350,000.00 ISK 10% = 135000 ISK Gùª Specialized Commodities: 70,000.00 ISK 10% = 7000 ISK Gùª Refined Commodities: 9,000.00 ISK 10% = 900 ISK Gùª Basic commodities: 500.00 ISK 10% = 50 ISK Gùª Planet Resources: 5,00 ISK 10% = 0.5 ISK This means that if you were selling any refined commodity below 9000 ISK you could have been making more isk creating and selling something else, but because you were effectively paying no tax it didn't matter what you made it was still profitable. I just have to reiterate this point; if you were selling any tier of item for anywhere near the price that is now charged for exporting that tier you failed HARD at doing your market research because you could have been making something that sold for 10 times as much. By halting manufacture of these grossly undervalued items their prices will rise to become more in line with the idex prices which might at a later time make them viable to produce again. At the end of the day a tax rate of 10% on pi production really is a very reasonable amount, it's similair to the amount of tax you pay on mission rewards and bounties in npc corps and even some player made corps. The beauty of using base index prices for each tier is that for every item in that tier that sells for less than the base there has to be something that sells for more than the base which effectively means doing your research and manufacturing the right product means you pay less than 10% of the value that item will sell for in export taxes.
tab one Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 2	Posted - 2011.12.06 05:31:00 - [44] - Quote This still stinks.... i do my PI in null sec... cant afford POPO .... Costs many millions to get a Jump Freighter to get it out so what profit i was going to make is ate up by our new wonderful tax structure ... sure ill stockpile my planet resources but cant really make anything now ... Just generally a big Pain in the *** ... so the net effect for me was getting me out of Null sec ...
RubyPorto Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion 76	Posted - 2011.12.06 07:00:00 - [45] - Quote tab one wrote: This still stinks.... i do my PI in null sec... cant afford POPO .... Costs many millions to get a Jump Freighter to get it out so what profit i was going to make is ate up by our new wonderful tax structure ... sure ill stockpile my planet resources but cant really make anything now ... Just generally a big Pain in the *** ... so the net effect for me was getting me out of Null sec ... Null Sec is Eve in Co-Op mode. If you don't have enough people to CoOperatively tear down the interbus COs and put up CoOperatively owned POCOS, congrats, you've figured out why Null is the Co-Op mode of Eve. Now if only there were some way to organize players in some sort of in game structure to make CoOperative play easier.
Boris Ginnungagap Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 13	Posted - 2011.12.06 08:44:00 - [46] - Quote tab one wrote: I am very upset about the new PI setup... there is no way i can make PI cost effective... I do PI in nul sec and between the taxes and the shipping costs to get my T2 and T3 products out i will be loosing millions of isk's to continue You do realise that there is tons of stocks left, wich are made pre-expansion? It will take time for prices to adjust on new tax levels.
Lord Zim Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 222	Posted - 2011.12.06 08:48:00 - [47] - Quote tab one wrote: This still stinks.... i do my PI in null sec... cant afford POPO .... Costs many millions to get a Jump Freighter to get it out so what profit i was going to make is ate up by our new wonderful tax structure ... sure ill stockpile my planet resources but cant really make anything now ... Just generally a big Pain in the *** ... so the net effect for me was getting me out of Null sec ... So, uh, the only reason for you to be in nullsec was PI? And you thought that was something that would be easy to do, solo? Not to be harsh, but you really do not get the intension behind nullsec. As RubyPorto says, it's supposed to be something you do with other people, so if nothing else find some renter corp and join them. Or not, and just realize that you're trying to do something which is supposed to be hard to do alone. Not impossible, but hard. vOv
Dr Mercy Doctrine. FEARLESS. 51	Posted - 2011.12.06 13:34:00 - [48] - Quote Oh, I did some calculations today. Turns out apart from 3 exceptions that market prices (the lower, buy order ones) are already high enough to cover highsec PI taxes even if I assume you export and re-import at every stage. All you guys who said highsec PI for newbies was dead were wrong. Anyone can thoughtlessly make isk my passively extracting PI materials - so long as they avoid Biofuels (P1), Guidance Systems (P3) and Planetary Vehicles (P3) Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets
Hundo Kay Great White North Exploration Gryphon League 27	Posted - 2011.12.06 13:36:00 - [49] - Quote I find so many things in the thread and in other conversations in the last week funny. PVE guy who complains that he doesn't make enough money doing L4's to cover the increase in T2 costs? Really? How many freaking ships do you lose? If you don't make enough to cover the increase in T2 missile costs, use T1. High Sec PI guy that doesn't want his profits nerfed. Guess what, week later and profits are about the same level with the new taxes as they were a week ago. PI guy that complains the tax on stuff under the Commodity Index is really more than 10% (or 17%). Well maybe that is a key to looking at something else to make. Null PI guy that can't kill a CO to put up his own. Wow, we did it with 4 players in BS's. Took awhile, but got done. You live in Null and don't have 3 friends with BS's? And for all the emo rage quitters, please stay away, as that is more profit for us real business people. In the end the real heartburn was not the doubling of the HS tax rate (and 350% increase for Interbus), it was the reindexing of the price used to figure the tax. The "effective tax" before the change was under 2% of most of the items "real value", and with the more valuable items it was almost 1%. Reindexing alone would have made prices go up. Now I do agree they should not be called Taxes, since we all assume a tax is based on the actual price. They should instead be Tariffs. Long Term, I would support a regular adjustment to the index to keep things more "current" and not let these Tariffs get to a point again where an adjustment will result in a 2 to 3 time increase. Overall, I think the changes were needed, add another level of "stuff" corps can get involved in, and added a layer of "ownership" to PI in Low/Null/W-Space that did not exist before. And if it pisses some HS people off who don't understand anything about business, even better.
bilingi Ghosts of the Storm 10	Posted - 2011.12.07 02:20:00 - [50] - Quote BS your just happy you think theyll be some newbie targets out there... and the other idiot thinks newbies can plunk down couple mil to start PI now? I used to think Eve had some smart people I am now changing my mind. Its a bunch of console players posting here.
Sassaniak Rayvek Laboratories 7	Posted - 2011.12.08 02:52:00 - [51] - Quote ZapStar253 wrote: Maybe CCP needs more PI targets for DUST..so a forced migration to Low Sec? yes. I am pretty sure this is the entire idea behind it. If they make hisec PI too expensive compared to low/null sec PI, (and seriouly, who the hell lives in null and doesnt have a few friends (or alts) to take a Interbus down ....) then most of all the pos fuels will be low/null produced, except those that simply pay out of pocket to stay independant of other market forces. (dont ask, they are out there) Because of the lack of concentration of players and conflict over PI now (pre-patch), they needed a function in which there was a good reason to fight over planets. lowsec PI with its lure of 0% tax rates, will bring players and their alts to join or at least negoiate with pvp groups over blue status, safe routes, and POCO safty. It will make sense for a pvp group thats living in an area to favor one or more industralist groups over others because of ship specials, or other supply stocking deals. once thats been settled for a while, DUST 514 will introduce the kicking of economic and industrialist rivals, further trying to bind individual industralist groups to pvp groups. but it has to happen in low/null so that you can have fast poco battles, and large unannounced firefights, rather then griefing of noobs in hisec, which would happen more frequently then even CCP wants. ............................................................................... Sometimes, you all make me very disappointed.
bilingi Ghosts of the Storm 10	Posted - 2011.12.09 09:51:00 - [52] - Quote its not going to happen and its not happening now, OMG seriously if they wanted to hang out with PvPers they would already be doing it.
Nekopyat Nee-Co 14	Posted - 2011.12.09 15:24:00 - [53] - Quote Xuzi wrote: In case anyone missed this excellent point, PI taxes are an ISK sink. In theory a buffed up PI ISK sink will help offset some of the inflation introduced by ISK being injected into the game by incursions. Less inflation, lower prices for everyone. [/quote] This is one of the things that, conceptually, bugs me about the change. Incursions introduced a new isk faucet, so they had to put in a new sink somewhere... and they choose PI. From a macro level balance perspective it might make sense, but it sent a strong message about 'correct' and 'incorrect' play.. 'we give more money to this group of players, and take it away from these'. I do agree with the people saying prices will sort themselves out. It remains to be seen if hi sec or null sec end up dominating the market though... it is not implausible that null sec could outproduce hi sec and thus be the dominant factor in setting prices, but for the moment we simply do not know. Something I do find sad though is the 'double dip' tax, exporting from one planet then importing to another for more specialized production or chains. I personally had my planets set up to be specialized, P0 or P1 production then factory worlds that could buffer the asymmetric production of P0 goods. While still possible, this is now much less viable. Personally though I would just be happy with some type of taxless (or tax credit) way of moving intermediate goods like real life taxation systems usually have.
Nekopyat Nee-Co 14	Posted - 2011.12.09 15:27:00 - [54] - Quote Hundo Kay wrote: I find so many things in the thread and in other conversations in the last week funny. PVE guy who complains that he doesn't make enough money doing L4's to cover the increase in T2 costs? Really? How many freaking ships do you lose? If you don't make enough to cover the increase in T2 missile costs, use T1. Actually, for casual players this can be a real issue. I manage to run maybe 1 or 2 L4s per week, sometimes not even that many. The ISK from that can get eaten up in taxes very quickly.
Claire Raynor NovaGear 7	Posted - 2011.12.09 17:37:00 - [55] - Quote Hundo Kay wrote: Overall, I think the changes were needed, add another level of "stuff" corps can get involved in And removed something that you could Solo for anyone doing PI in Lo-Sec. I can't protect an expensive POCO. I probably can't afford to build all 6 that I'd need. And beside's it's Lo-Sec!!! They'd be dead and gone long before they'd paid for themselves! I do feel the change has made me as an industrial biased character feel a little left in the cold. Like another poster said it feels like we are being given the hint that we are playing it wrong. I sometimes feel that industrialists only exist to provide PvP content for the proper PvP biased players!
Steve Ronuken Fuzzwork Enterprises 60	Posted - 2011.12.09 17:44:00 - [56] - Quote I'm PIing in lowsec. While the Corp that's put up POCOs is charging 15%, it's still worth it for me. P0 to P2.
RubyPorto Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion 99	Posted - 2011.12.09 18:42:00 - [57] - Quote Claire Raynor wrote: Hundo Kay wrote: Overall, I think the changes were needed, add another level of "stuff" corps can get involved in And removed something that you could Solo for anyone doing PI in Lo-Sec. I can't protect an expensive POCO. I probably can't afford to build all 6 that I'd need. And beside's it's Lo-Sec!!! They'd be dead and gone long before they'd paid for themselves! I do feel the change has made me as an industrial biased character feel a little left in the cold. Like another poster said it feels like we are being given the hint that we are playing it wrong. I sometimes feel that industrialists only exist to provide PvP content for the proper PvP biased players! Find someone who you can pay (maybe with those silly taxes) to put up a POCO and protect it.
Claire Raynor NovaGear 7	Posted - 2011.12.09 20:40:00 - [58] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: Claire Raynor wrote: Hundo Kay wrote: Overall, I think the changes were needed, add another level of "stuff" corps can get involved in And removed something that you could Solo for anyone doing PI in Lo-Sec. I can't protect an expensive POCO. I probably can't afford to build all 6 that I'd need. And beside's it's Lo-Sec!!! They'd be dead and gone long before they'd paid for themselves! I do feel the change has made me as an industrial biased character feel a little left in the cold. Like another poster said it feels like we are being given the hint that we are playing it wrong. I sometimes feel that industrialists only exist to provide PvP content for the proper PvP biased players! Find someone who you can pay (maybe with those silly taxes) to put up a POCO and protect it. Ha Ha. Naww. That's my point :) I'm not going to do it anymore. Anyway I've pulled it all up already. What with the Fuel Cube stuff as well. Well I had wanted my PI so I could have a high-sec POS for research but that REALLY ain't gonna happen now!

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