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tab one Gallente Trade Union Moon Warriors 0	Posted - 2011.12.01 16:11:00 - [1] - Quote I am very upset about the new PI setup... there is no way i can make PI cost effective... I do PI in nul sec and between the taxes and the shipping costs to get my T2 and T3 products out i will be loosing millions of isk's to continue
Omega Flames Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact 14	Posted - 2011.12.01 16:15:00 - [2] - Quote friendly warning, your thread is about to be locked as CCP are locking all threads concerning PI taxes / POCO except the ONLY one where the OP agreed with the change.
Jim Hooknose Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2011.12.01 16:17:00 - [3] - Quote Your thread will be locked soon and you will be directed to a thread from a well known null sec alliance member. There your fears and concerns will be dismissed and sometimes laughed at. CCP would like to remind you to pay your taxes and happy holidays.
tab one Gallente Trade Union Moon Warriors 0	Posted - 2011.12.01 16:20:00 - [4] - Quote at least 2 ppl got to see it
Jim Hooknose Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2011.12.01 16:23:00 - [5] - Quote tab one wrote: at least 2 ppl got to see it I sympathize with you. This is how I think it went down: CCP decides to shank high sec PI but knows if that is all they do people will unsub in droves SO They play it smart. They work on some things people have been BEGGING for years for and everyone glosses over the gutting of PI.
Jim Hooknose Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2011.12.01 16:25:00 - [6] - Quote Oh, and here is the thread CCP will direct you to. You can voice your opinions but prepared to be shutdown unless you have nice things to say about PI changes.
tab one Gallente Trade Union Moon Warriors 0	Posted - 2011.12.01 16:36:00 - [7] - Quote Ill just shut my PI planets down for a while... figure if they get enough ppl doing that there wont be any game to play... hard to build stuff if u have no supplies ... just sucks that ive spent a lot of time and isk training my PI skills
Esunisen Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous 12	Posted - 2011.12.01 16:44:00 - [8] - Quote Welcome to the club bro
Dr Mercy Doctrine. FEARLESS. 46	Posted - 2011.12.01 17:03:00 - [9] - Quote tab one wrote: I am very upset about the new PI setup... there is no way i can make PI cost effective... I do PI in nul sec and between the taxes and the shipping costs to get my T2 and T3 products out i will be loosing millions of isk's to continue My advice would be not to sell them yet. Prices should come up as people exit the market (i.e. stop producing these underpriced items). Of course, you may not have the capital to withstand the continued running costs. At which point you'll have to let the factories and extractors stop until such time as you can make a profit again. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets
Teuna OTH2 0	Posted - 2011.12.01 17:28:00 - [10] - Quote The new costs associated with PI in HS is total BS. I really do not even know why they decided to go down this route.
Jim Hooknose Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2011.12.01 17:31:00 - [11] - Quote My guess? Too many subs.
Dr Mercy Doctrine. FEARLESS. 47	Posted - 2011.12.01 17:35:00 - [12] - Quote Teuna wrote: The new costs associated with PI in HS is total BS. I really do not even know why they decided to go down this route. If Highsec PI was both the safest AND the cheapest option - why would anyone do PI anywhere else? Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets
Jim Hooknose Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2011.12.01 17:45:00 - [13] - Quote I, personally, am fine with low/null sec being more profitable. I just don't want high sec made LESS profitable. Keep your POCOs (and their adjustable tax rates). They encourage pvp and player interaction I guess. Just don't lower my PI profits in high sec. To sum it up: +1 non-empire space and -1 empire = BAD +1 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD Hell even, +2 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD
Akrasjel Lanate Naquatech Conglomerate 211	Posted - 2011.12.01 17:55:00 - [14] - Quote Then stop PI, there will be more for me
agrajag119 GeoCorp. Gentlemen's Agreement 3	Posted - 2011.12.01 19:09:00 - [15] - Quote PI may not be profitable at current prices, thats by design. Sounds screwy, I know. Guess what though, there is no way for the eve economy to function without PI goods. So once all the people get adjusted to what the new costs per unit are, guess what is going to happen to the price of PI goods? Yup, thats right kids, they'll go up Once they go up, guess what ... you'll be making isk again. Whether or not that is as much as you made before per unit remains to be seen. I'd bet the overall profit will stay pretty close to what it was before.
Cygnet Lythanea World Welfare Works Association 15	Posted - 2011.12.01 22:37:00 - [16] - Quote The problem is that eventually you reach a point where the players are no longer willing to pay the price and find lower cost alternatives. Also, the actual rate they tax at is flexible, so be prepared for the taxes to increase with the prices. And, yes, we're all counting down till CCP locks the thread, just like they do every time it's a Damage Control party. Let me try to speed it up: BoB T20 goons BPOs POCO NeX aurum monocle and a partridge in a pear tree!
Dr Mercy Doctrine. FEARLESS. 47	Posted - 2011.12.02 00:19:00 - [17] - Quote Jim Hooknose wrote: I, personally, am fine with low/null sec being more profitable. I just don't want high sec made LESS profitable. Keep your POCOs (and their adjustable tax rates). They encourage pvp and player interaction I guess. Just don't lower my PI profits in high sec. To sum it up: +1 non-empire space and -1 empire = BAD +1 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD Hell even, +2 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD Yeah, it's ** when your chosen isk making activity gets nerfed in EVE. We need it to pay for the ** we want to buy and we don't want less of it! However, I have a question. Say they kept Highsec PI taxes at 5% as they were before - how would anyone with a POCO in lowsec use it to entice people out there? Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets
PipBrown Semper Invicta. Inception Alliance 0	Posted - 2011.12.02 00:42:00 - [18] - Quote I don't understand the fuss from player unhappy with the changes to PI taxes. Why can they just increase the price of the product to offset any incurred taxes.
Jim Hooknose Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 18	Posted - 2011.12.02 00:51:00 - [19] - Quote Dr Mercy wrote: However, I have a question. Say they kept Highsec PI taxes at 5% as they were before - how would anyone with a POCO in lowsec use it to entice people out there? In low sec you can prevent all taxes by putting a POCO up. 0% is better than 5%. Plus a POCO would keep players from accessing the planet unless you permit them to. IIRC the number of players extracting on a planet affects the yield from the ECUs. Less players extracting = more yield for the few who are extracting. Oh, and meeting us halfway with something like 7.5% would be a step in the right direction. Better than the current replies of "Working as intended!" that we have heard so far.
Dr Mercy Doctrine. FEARLESS. 48	Posted - 2011.12.02 01:03:00 - [20] - Quote Jim Hooknose wrote: Dr Mercy wrote: However, I have a question. Say they kept Highsec PI taxes at 5% as they were before - how would anyone with a POCO in lowsec use it to entice people out there? In low sec you can prevent all taxes by putting a POCO up. 0% is better than 5%. Plus a POCO would keep players from accessing the planet unless you permit them to. IIRC the number of players extracting on a planet affects the yield from the ECUs. Less players extracting = more yield for the few who are extracting. Oh, and meeting us halfway with something like 7.5% would be a step in the right direction. Better than the current replies of "Working as intended!" that we have heard so far. Hmm, so in your view lowsec POCOs can't realistically be used to generate income via third parties using the planets for PI - only for corps/alliances to undercut highsec CO taxes? A margin of only 5% doesn't sound a particularly large incentive for these kinds of players to invest in the POCO structures (100 mil) and operate under the risk present in lowsec. A mere 5% premium for operating in the safety of highsec? When I look at it from this point of view 10% doesn't even seem like a large enough margin either! Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets
Broomhilde Aliastra Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2011.12.02 03:05:00 - [21] - Quote I'm done with CCP, the taxes are unreasonable. Sure I can go out and gouge customers by charging more for my resources, but frankly I'm tired of CCP and their bullshyt. Bye.
Jim Hooknose Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 18	Posted - 2011.12.02 03:23:00 - [22] - Quote Dr Mercy wrote: Hmm, so in your view lowsec POCOs can't realistically be used to generate income via third parties using the planets for PI - only for corps/alliances to undercut highsec CO taxes? A margin of only 5% doesn't sound a particularly large incentive for these kinds of players to invest in the POCO structures (100 mil) and operate under the risk present in lowsec. A mere 5% premium for operating in the safety of highsec? When I look at it from this point of view 10% doesn't even seem like a large enough margin either! Alright, then add convenience bonuses to the POCOs. No messages to wait x number of seconds when you use a POCO. Make them cheaper in ISK and slightly cheaper in LP. Lord knows the things will get blown up left and right. You forget that if the POCO owners place even a small tax on the export/imports they will have a passive way to generate corp funds. Placed in the right spot the POCO could make a sizable amount of ISK, plus saving the owner's tax fees. Which is great, that aspect of the PI change is fine. It's the completely wrecking highsec PI taxes that I mind.
Esunisen Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous 14	Posted - 2011.12.02 14:23:00 - [23] - Quote PipBrown wrote: I don't understand the fuss from player unhappy with the changes to PI taxes. Why can't they just increase the price of the product to offset any incurred taxes. Because some people won't have to pay taxes at all when they have POCOs, so anyone making PI in highsec is screwed and needs to find something else to do.
Lauren Hellfury Full Pocket Aggro In Vitro. 35	Posted - 2011.12.02 14:37:00 - [24] - Quote You know what I just realised? This is the exact same **** as T2 BPOs. Sure, those in low/null with their own POCOs and 0% tax can make more Isk with PI. But they had to spend a nice chunk in order to do so and also have to defend that chunk or replace it periodically. If the market demand for a given PI product is lower than the supply of that product coming from 0% POCO taxed sources then they can set the price and keep those in high-sec or using interbus COs out of the market. Price too low? Well, you'd have struggled to move it anyway so feel smug that you worked it out before spending on it. You did check prices before jumping in right? If the market demand for a given PI product is higher than the supply of that product coming from high-sec/interbus CO sources then it is those people that set the price. Price too low? Blame people that can't add up or realise that the profit that you want isn't the profit that people are happy to give you.
ZapStar253 Solarwind GP 1	Posted - 2011.12.03 05:43:00 - [25] - Quote Maybe CCP needs more PI targets for DUST..so a forced migration to Low Sec?
Vigdis Thorisdottir Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 40	Posted - 2011.12.04 02:15:00 - [26] - Quote Just relax. PI prices will adjust to reflect the price of doing business in highsec because that is where most PI will continue to be done. Your profits will be fine. Manufacturers in lowsec and null will just make more profit. That is all.
Esunisen Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous 16	Posted - 2011.12.04 03:13:00 - [27] - Quote Buyers orders in Jita are below 1.35M for 4 of the P4. Why would I pay 135k of taxes ? Organic Mortar Applicators -> 1.025M, taxes should be 102.5k Even more, I have to pay SCC taxes aswell... Can't make profit. Period. I get more profit with mining, much more, even in highsec.
Scrapyard Bob EVE University Ivy League 437	Posted - 2011.12.04 03:28:00 - [28] - Quote Esunisen wrote: Buyers orders in Jita are below 1.35M for 4 of the P4. Why would I pay 135k of taxes ? And last summer you paid 50k ISK tariff on those P4s and they were only selling for 500k to 750k. So your net per item went up (and your profit margin probably also went up a bit due to increased demand for P4s).
Jarnis McPieksu Aliastra Gallente Federation 70	Posted - 2011.12.04 04:51:00 - [29] - Quote Esunisen wrote: Buyers orders in Jita are below 1.35M for 4 of the P4. Why would I pay 135k of taxes ? Organic Mortar Applicators -> 1.025M, taxes should be 102.5k Even more, I have to pay SCC taxes aswell... Can't make profit. Period. I get more profit with mining, much more, even in highsec. If you see something on the market that, by your calculation, is made at a loss, instead of whining you are supposed to buy it and relist at a price where producer makes a profit. The prices are still moving. Builders that use PI goods are naturally resisting rising prices but as long as PI builders refuse to sell at a loss, the prices will rise. Econ 101. And low/null manufacturing is so small percentage of PI that high sec PI makers will dictate the final price. Heck, if you are unhappy with the price, just keep stockpiling. The price will go up. Then you sell them all in one go when the price readjusts to a level you find reasonable. I'm myself doing exactly that with some other goods.
electrostatus Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2011.12.04 06:52:00 - [30] - Quote You'd be surprised how many people will sell at a loss. PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them!
Terisok Ministry of War Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2011.12.04 07:58:00 - [31] - Quote The interbus customs office "only" have 15 million hit points. This is alot to handle alone, but it CAN be done. My suggestion would be to make some friends and get them to help you. I myself just set up my own POCO. I actually got the local pirates to help me out - turns out they aren't that happy about PI taxes either. With 4 ships it took us about 1.5 hours to pop the Interbus customs office. This is MUCH easier and MUCH faster than a POS bash. Don't want to trust other players? Get yourself a nice, cheap, expendable high DPS Amarr ship (see: Oracle), go out to some backwater low sec system with an updated implantless clone and go AFK while your lasers do the rest of the work for you. If someone pops and pods you, then try again in a different system and/or a different time. OR you could hire someone to pop some Interbus customs office for you. I'm sure you could find someone willing to do this for you - for the right price.
Helicity Boson Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 92	Posted - 2011.12.04 09:26:00 - [32] - Quote Jim Hooknose wrote: To sum it up: +1 non-empire space and -1 empire = BAD +1 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD Hell even, +2 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD +1 non-empire space and -1 empire = PI goods become more valuable +1 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = Inflation +2 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = even more inflation Inflation is Bad.
Cygnet Lythanea World Welfare Works Association 24	Posted - 2011.12.04 10:05:00 - [33] - Quote THe problem is that as things stand it's -1 to non Empire, -1 to Empire. The long term effects are not yet clear, but it is likely top drive T2 higher. Which is bad for new players, and hence, bad for the game. Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium
rodyas Tie Fighters Inc 38	Posted - 2011.12.04 14:11:00 - [34] - Quote PipBrown wrote: I don't understand the fuss from player unhappy with the changes to PI taxes. Why can't they just increase the price of the product to offset any incurred taxes. Offsetting the cost would work if missions made more isk, then you could easily raise your prices to compensate and the majority of the playerbase would be there still to greet you. But I only make so much isk from missions this is more like people not making house payments and you are wondering why its so hard to pay more so you dont lose money as well or so.
Taedrin Kushan Industrial 159	Posted - 2011.12.04 17:46:00 - [35] - Quote Cygnet Lythanea wrote: THe problem is that as things stand it's -1 to non Empire, -1 to Empire. The long term effects are not yet clear, but it is likely top drive T2 higher. Which is bad for new players, and hence, bad for the game. I disagree, higher T2 prices make T1 more competitive which is BETTER for new players.
Esunisen Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous 16	Posted - 2011.12.04 17:50:00 - [36] - Quote Jarnis McPieksu wrote: Heck, if you are unhappy with the price, just keep stockpiling. The price will go up. Then you sell them all in one go when the price readjusts to a level you find reasonable. I'm myself doing exactly that with some other goods. If I stockpile I make negative income because I still have to pay the taxes to import/export, you should read Econ 101 again
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba Perkone Caldari State 9	Posted - 2011.12.04 18:27:00 - [37] - Quote So errrr... no when figures that a lot of the market is stock pile because when CCP says they are raising taxes on a product in a month that's what you would do. I made some easy ISK from this. How long has Crucible been out? Feedback will take a while. I'm making alright money for something which takes me about 15mins a day to do. Breaking even at about 5 days then making a about ~5 million a day with minimal effort. Oh no wait it's rubbish everyone quit.
Xuzi Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2011.12.05 08:54:00 - [38] - Quote Get a grip folks. PI products adjusted drastically from their original NPC prices when PI was introduced and have been in constant flux ever since. These readjusted base prices are a relatively dramatic change to tax costs that will have a correspondingly dramatic impact on market price. Overwhelming demand is still out there, as long as there is demand there is potential for profit, as long as there is a potential for profit there will be an impulse to supply. Changes happen to the economy all the time in this game. Adaptation or stagnation? Which sounds like more fun? I love it!
Xuzi Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2011.12.05 09:04:00 - [39] - Quote Cygnet Lythanea wrote: THe problem is that as things stand it's -1 to non Empire, -1 to Empire. The long term effects are not yet clear, but it is likely top drive T2 higher. Which is bad for new players, and hence, bad for the game. In the majority of cases, PI products are only a small fraction of T2 manufacturing costs. Especially true with T2 ship hulls. If you want cheaper T2 hulls, talk to the null sec moon miners. If anything higher PI prices allow individual PI producers to take a bite out of all those wallets maintaining null sec towers. A very small bite.
Lord Zim Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 212	Posted - 2011.12.05 09:07:00 - [40] - Quote Esunisen wrote: Jarnis McPieksu wrote: Heck, if you are unhappy with the price, just keep stockpiling. The price will go up. Then you sell them all in one go when the price readjusts to a level you find reasonable. I'm myself doing exactly that with some other goods. If I stockpile I make negative income because I still have to pay the taxes to import/export, you should read Econ 101 again So sell enough to enable you to keep paying the taxes and whatever other expenses you may have and stockpile the rest until you see the prices are getting up to a reasonable level?
Xuzi Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2011.12.05 09:20:00 - [41] - Quote Helicity Boson wrote: Jim Hooknose wrote: To sum it up: +1 non-empire space and -1 empire = BAD +1 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD Hell even, +2 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD +1 non-empire space and -1 empire = PI goods become more valuable +1 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = Inflation +2 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = even more inflation Inflation is Bad. In case anyone missed this excellent point, PI taxes are an ISK sink. In theory a buffed up PI ISK sink will help offset some of the inflation introduced by ISK being injected into the game by incursions. Less inflation, lower prices for everyone.
Lord Zim Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 212	Posted - 2011.12.05 09:46:00 - [42] - Quote Helicity Boson wrote: Jim Hooknose wrote: To sum it up: +1 non-empire space and -1 empire = BAD +1 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD Hell even, +2 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = GOOD +1 non-empire space and -1 empire = PI goods become more valuable +1 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = Inflation +2 non-empire space and no adjustment to empire = even more inflation Inflation is Bad. PI taxes on NPC Customs Offices are an isk sink, and this actually does help defeat inflation. As to the rest of Helicity's post, I've no idea what he's talking about inflation for, it's not like PI is spawning ISK out of thin air, the stuff you create through PI is just facilitating an ISK transfer. As has been stated multiple times before, a module becoming more expensive doesn't necessarily constitute inflation, the ISK being used to buy the module being valued less would constitute inflation. And PI being performed on NPC Customs Offices helps deflate ISK because the ISK spent there just goes poof, whereas PI being performed on POCOs is just transferring ISK to the alliance/corp which owns the POCO.
Steven Fonulique SF Incorporated 3	Posted - 2011.12.05 10:33:00 - [43] - Quote Silly me hit post without copying contents, lets try again . First thing I'd like to state very clearly is PI is STILL very profitable. The reason why it's still profitable is because taxes are based on the average market value of each tier of product and set to 10% of that value in high sec. For simplicity we'll pretend that before crucible was launched taxes for high sec imports and exports were free. Now lets look at the base prices ccp are using for determining just exactly how much isk that 10% on the customs office is: Gùª Advanced Commodities: 1,350,000.00 ISK 10% = 135000 ISK Gùª Specialized Commodities: 70,000.00 ISK 10% = 7000 ISK Gùª Refined Commodities: 9,000.00 ISK 10% = 900 ISK Gùª Basic commodities: 500.00 ISK 10% = 50 ISK Gùª Planet Resources: 5,00 ISK 10% = 0.5 ISK This means that if you were selling any refined commodity below 9000 ISK you could have been making more isk creating and selling something else, but because you were effectively paying no tax it didn't matter what you made it was still profitable. I just have to reiterate this point; if you were selling any tier of item for anywhere near the price that is now charged for exporting that tier you failed HARD at doing your market research because you could have been making something that sold for 10 times as much. By halting manufacture of these grossly undervalued items their prices will rise to become more in line with the idex prices which might at a later time make them viable to produce again. At the end of the day a tax rate of 10% on pi production really is a very reasonable amount, it's similair to the amount of tax you pay on mission rewards and bounties in npc corps and even some player made corps. The beauty of using base index prices for each tier is that for every item in that tier that sells for less than the base there has to be something that sells for more than the base which effectively means doing your research and manufacturing the right product means you pay less than 10% of the value that item will sell for in export taxes.
tab one Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 2	Posted - 2011.12.06 05:31:00 - [44] - Quote This still stinks.... i do my PI in null sec... cant afford POPO .... Costs many millions to get a Jump Freighter to get it out so what profit i was going to make is ate up by our new wonderful tax structure ... sure ill stockpile my planet resources but cant really make anything now ... Just generally a big Pain in the *** ... so the net effect for me was getting me out of Null sec ...
RubyPorto Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion 76	Posted - 2011.12.06 07:00:00 - [45] - Quote tab one wrote: This still stinks.... i do my PI in null sec... cant afford POPO .... Costs many millions to get a Jump Freighter to get it out so what profit i was going to make is ate up by our new wonderful tax structure ... sure ill stockpile my planet resources but cant really make anything now ... Just generally a big Pain in the *** ... so the net effect for me was getting me out of Null sec ... Null Sec is Eve in Co-Op mode. If you don't have enough people to CoOperatively tear down the interbus COs and put up CoOperatively owned POCOS, congrats, you've figured out why Null is the Co-Op mode of Eve. Now if only there were some way to organize players in some sort of in game structure to make CoOperative play easier.
Boris Ginnungagap Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 13	Posted - 2011.12.06 08:44:00 - [46] - Quote tab one wrote: I am very upset about the new PI setup... there is no way i can make PI cost effective... I do PI in nul sec and between the taxes and the shipping costs to get my T2 and T3 products out i will be loosing millions of isk's to continue You do realise that there is tons of stocks left, wich are made pre-expansion? It will take time for prices to adjust on new tax levels.
Lord Zim Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 222	Posted - 2011.12.06 08:48:00 - [47] - Quote tab one wrote: This still stinks.... i do my PI in null sec... cant afford POPO .... Costs many millions to get a Jump Freighter to get it out so what profit i was going to make is ate up by our new wonderful tax structure ... sure ill stockpile my planet resources but cant really make anything now ... Just generally a big Pain in the *** ... so the net effect for me was getting me out of Null sec ... So, uh, the only reason for you to be in nullsec was PI? And you thought that was something that would be easy to do, solo? Not to be harsh, but you really do not get the intension behind nullsec. As RubyPorto says, it's supposed to be something you do with other people, so if nothing else find some renter corp and join them. Or not, and just realize that you're trying to do something which is supposed to be hard to do alone. Not impossible, but hard. vOv
Dr Mercy Doctrine. FEARLESS. 51	Posted - 2011.12.06 13:34:00 - [48] - Quote Oh, I did some calculations today. Turns out apart from 3 exceptions that market prices (the lower, buy order ones) are already high enough to cover highsec PI taxes even if I assume you export and re-import at every stage. All you guys who said highsec PI for newbies was dead were wrong. Anyone can thoughtlessly make isk my passively extracting PI materials - so long as they avoid Biofuels (P1), Guidance Systems (P3) and Planetary Vehicles (P3) Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets
Hundo Kay Great White North Exploration Gryphon League 27	Posted - 2011.12.06 13:36:00 - [49] - Quote I find so many things in the thread and in other conversations in the last week funny. PVE guy who complains that he doesn't make enough money doing L4's to cover the increase in T2 costs? Really? How many freaking ships do you lose? If you don't make enough to cover the increase in T2 missile costs, use T1. High Sec PI guy that doesn't want his profits nerfed. Guess what, week later and profits are about the same level with the new taxes as they were a week ago. PI guy that complains the tax on stuff under the Commodity Index is really more than 10% (or 17%). Well maybe that is a key to looking at something else to make. Null PI guy that can't kill a CO to put up his own. Wow, we did it with 4 players in BS's. Took awhile, but got done. You live in Null and don't have 3 friends with BS's? And for all the emo rage quitters, please stay away, as that is more profit for us real business people. In the end the real heartburn was not the doubling of the HS tax rate (and 350% increase for Interbus), it was the reindexing of the price used to figure the tax. The "effective tax" before the change was under 2% of most of the items "real value", and with the more valuable items it was almost 1%. Reindexing alone would have made prices go up. Now I do agree they should not be called Taxes, since we all assume a tax is based on the actual price. They should instead be Tariffs. Long Term, I would support a regular adjustment to the index to keep things more "current" and not let these Tariffs get to a point again where an adjustment will result in a 2 to 3 time increase. Overall, I think the changes were needed, add another level of "stuff" corps can get involved in, and added a layer of "ownership" to PI in Low/Null/W-Space that did not exist before. And if it pisses some HS people off who don't understand anything about business, even better.
bilingi Ghosts of the Storm 10	Posted - 2011.12.07 02:20:00 - [50] - Quote BS your just happy you think theyll be some newbie targets out there... and the other idiot thinks newbies can plunk down couple mil to start PI now? I used to think Eve had some smart people I am now changing my mind. Its a bunch of console players posting here.
Sassaniak Rayvek Laboratories 7	Posted - 2011.12.08 02:52:00 - [51] - Quote ZapStar253 wrote: Maybe CCP needs more PI targets for DUST..so a forced migration to Low Sec? yes. I am pretty sure this is the entire idea behind it. If they make hisec PI too expensive compared to low/null sec PI, (and seriouly, who the hell lives in null and doesnt have a few friends (or alts) to take a Interbus down ....) then most of all the pos fuels will be low/null produced, except those that simply pay out of pocket to stay independant of other market forces. (dont ask, they are out there) Because of the lack of concentration of players and conflict over PI now (pre-patch), they needed a function in which there was a good reason to fight over planets. lowsec PI with its lure of 0% tax rates, will bring players and their alts to join or at least negoiate with pvp groups over blue status, safe routes, and POCO safty. It will make sense for a pvp group thats living in an area to favor one or more industralist groups over others because of ship specials, or other supply stocking deals. once thats been settled for a while, DUST 514 will introduce the kicking of economic and industrialist rivals, further trying to bind individual industralist groups to pvp groups. but it has to happen in low/null so that you can have fast poco battles, and large unannounced firefights, rather then griefing of noobs in hisec, which would happen more frequently then even CCP wants. ............................................................................... Sometimes, you all make me very disappointed.
bilingi Ghosts of the Storm 10	Posted - 2011.12.09 09:51:00 - [52] - Quote its not going to happen and its not happening now, OMG seriously if they wanted to hang out with PvPers they would already be doing it.
Nekopyat Nee-Co 14	Posted - 2011.12.09 15:24:00 - [53] - Quote Xuzi wrote: In case anyone missed this excellent point, PI taxes are an ISK sink. In theory a buffed up PI ISK sink will help offset some of the inflation introduced by ISK being injected into the game by incursions. Less inflation, lower prices for everyone. [/quote] This is one of the things that, conceptually, bugs me about the change. Incursions introduced a new isk faucet, so they had to put in a new sink somewhere... and they choose PI. From a macro level balance perspective it might make sense, but it sent a strong message about 'correct' and 'incorrect' play.. 'we give more money to this group of players, and take it away from these'. I do agree with the people saying prices will sort themselves out. It remains to be seen if hi sec or null sec end up dominating the market though... it is not implausible that null sec could outproduce hi sec and thus be the dominant factor in setting prices, but for the moment we simply do not know. Something I do find sad though is the 'double dip' tax, exporting from one planet then importing to another for more specialized production or chains. I personally had my planets set up to be specialized, P0 or P1 production then factory worlds that could buffer the asymmetric production of P0 goods. While still possible, this is now much less viable. Personally though I would just be happy with some type of taxless (or tax credit) way of moving intermediate goods like real life taxation systems usually have.
Nekopyat Nee-Co 14	Posted - 2011.12.09 15:27:00 - [54] - Quote Hundo Kay wrote: I find so many things in the thread and in other conversations in the last week funny. PVE guy who complains that he doesn't make enough money doing L4's to cover the increase in T2 costs? Really? How many freaking ships do you lose? If you don't make enough to cover the increase in T2 missile costs, use T1. Actually, for casual players this can be a real issue. I manage to run maybe 1 or 2 L4s per week, sometimes not even that many. The ISK from that can get eaten up in taxes very quickly.
Claire Raynor NovaGear 7	Posted - 2011.12.09 17:37:00 - [55] - Quote Hundo Kay wrote: Overall, I think the changes were needed, add another level of "stuff" corps can get involved in And removed something that you could Solo for anyone doing PI in Lo-Sec. I can't protect an expensive POCO. I probably can't afford to build all 6 that I'd need. And beside's it's Lo-Sec!!! They'd be dead and gone long before they'd paid for themselves! I do feel the change has made me as an industrial biased character feel a little left in the cold. Like another poster said it feels like we are being given the hint that we are playing it wrong. I sometimes feel that industrialists only exist to provide PvP content for the proper PvP biased players!
Steve Ronuken Fuzzwork Enterprises 60	Posted - 2011.12.09 17:44:00 - [56] - Quote I'm PIing in lowsec. While the Corp that's put up POCOs is charging 15%, it's still worth it for me. P0 to P2.
RubyPorto Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion 99	Posted - 2011.12.09 18:42:00 - [57] - Quote Claire Raynor wrote: Hundo Kay wrote: Overall, I think the changes were needed, add another level of "stuff" corps can get involved in And removed something that you could Solo for anyone doing PI in Lo-Sec. I can't protect an expensive POCO. I probably can't afford to build all 6 that I'd need. And beside's it's Lo-Sec!!! They'd be dead and gone long before they'd paid for themselves! I do feel the change has made me as an industrial biased character feel a little left in the cold. Like another poster said it feels like we are being given the hint that we are playing it wrong. I sometimes feel that industrialists only exist to provide PvP content for the proper PvP biased players! Find someone who you can pay (maybe with those silly taxes) to put up a POCO and protect it.
Claire Raynor NovaGear 7	Posted - 2011.12.09 20:40:00 - [58] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: Claire Raynor wrote: Hundo Kay wrote: Overall, I think the changes were needed, add another level of "stuff" corps can get involved in And removed something that you could Solo for anyone doing PI in Lo-Sec. I can't protect an expensive POCO. I probably can't afford to build all 6 that I'd need. And beside's it's Lo-Sec!!! They'd be dead and gone long before they'd paid for themselves! I do feel the change has made me as an industrial biased character feel a little left in the cold. Like another poster said it feels like we are being given the hint that we are playing it wrong. I sometimes feel that industrialists only exist to provide PvP content for the proper PvP biased players! Find someone who you can pay (maybe with those silly taxes) to put up a POCO and protect it. Ha Ha. Naww. That's my point :) I'm not going to do it anymore. Anyway I've pulled it all up already. What with the Fuel Cube stuff as well. Well I had wanted my PI so I could have a high-sec POS for research but that REALLY ain't gonna happen now!

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