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Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.05 20:07:00 - [31] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/10/2006 20:07:52 Originally by: Ardan Strange... For a Tier 1 BS it is tied for the highest Power Grid at 12500. Has Decent CPU. 600, Decent armor and Shield with a pretty good slot layout. 8-4-7. What's wrong with it? You have to compare the powergrid and cpu with the weapons and the tank its supposed to fit. I dont fly the ship, but appearently it has problems fitting large guns and launchers at the same time if you want a tank. Edit: Nyxus setup looks OK to me though... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.05 20:11:00 - [32] The phoon would be a good ship with some more grid and swapped armor/shield HP. Also, it would help matters if it got the same bonus as the Naglfar (5% RoF to Missles and 7.5% RoF to Projectiles).
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.10.05 20:36:00 - [33] The phoon is very versatile an din the hands of a good pilot it can beat many battleships out there. Btw a Phoon can in fact beat a raven, simply fit 4 nos 4 torps and ur tank will do the rest. This ship can also pull off the nano set ups quite amazingly as well and actually take down other battleships w that set up. It may be hard to set up but as u all know this ship is the most skill demanding bs in the game so u simpply need to get those skills up. It rly comes down to the pilot, and im sure there are many phoon pilots that are great while some r totaly incompetent.
Darax Thulain Minmatar Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.06 06:55:00 - [34] Yer, I love me phoon now. Dont you dare change it.
Nafri Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.06 07:50:00 - [35] Originally by: Ardan Strange... For a Tier 1 BS it is tied for the highest Power Grid at 12500. Has Decent CPU. 600, Decent armor and Shield with a pretty good slot layout. 8-4-7. What's wrong with it? Cause it has to fit 8 highslots and is an armor tanker, like the geddon, but the geddon has 16500 PG. Also it slots are inferor to the Dominix 6/5/7, which are more versatile than the phoons . From Dusk till Dawn
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.10.06 08:34:00 - [36] The phoon is "fine",it received some love but tux forgot to switch the shield amount for the armor,decrease the amount of minerals to actually build one and give it a bit more power grid ,but hey it is better then the old phoon .
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.06 08:38:00 - [37] Originally by: Pesadel0 The phoon is "fine",it received some love but tux forgot to switch the shield amount for the armor,decrease the amount of minerals to actually build one and give it a bit more power grid ,but hey it is better then the old phoon . Yes, these were the final changes we proposed a while back, but of course they were ignored :P The reason the phoon needs more grid is because of it's slot layout. If it fits nos+siege, or even large size ACs + siege, it struggles to fit a decent armour tank. If it fits a decent armour tank, it struggles to fit it's highs. And you can pretty much forget about fitting artillery on it at all in any realistically usable setup. It's still broken, just a bit less so then it was before. Scrapheap Challenge Forums - All the cool kids are doing it!
Sandra Tseng THE MISPHIT'S	Posted - 2006.10.06 08:44:00 - [38] Originally by: Testy Mctest Yes, these were the final changes we proposed a while back, but of course they were ignored :P The reason the phoon needs more grid is because of it's slot layout. If it fits nos+siege, or even large size ACs + siege, it struggles to fit a decent armour tank. If it fits a decent armour tank, it struggles to fit it's highs. And you can pretty much forget about fitting artillery on it at all in any realistically usable setup. It's still broken, just a bit less so then it was before. You fail to see that it is a tier1 BS and that Heavy NOS actually have higher fitting reqs than the biggest tier guns of most races battleshipclass guns. Siegelaunchers are also very demanding on fitting reqs. You do not see many Armageddons with full TACHYON BEAM LASER outfits - Dominixes with full NEUTRON BLASTER CANNON or Scorpions with full SIEGE LAUNCHER/ 425MM RAILGUN outfit either. fit lower calibre guns or Cruise Launchers instead of Siege and realize that Heavy NOS have high fitting reqs and think out of the cookie-cutter box _ Killed my sig AGAIN! :p http://www.ninc.org/krubarax/images/2d/verydisco.jpg
Nafri Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.06 09:05:00 - [39] Originally by: Sandra Tseng Originally by: Testy Mctest Yes, these were the final changes we proposed a while back, but of course they were ignored :P The reason the phoon needs more grid is because of it's slot layout. If it fits nos+siege, or even large size ACs + siege, it struggles to fit a decent armour tank. If it fits a decent armour tank, it struggles to fit it's highs. And you can pretty much forget about fitting artillery on it at all in any realistically usable setup. It's still broken, just a bit less so then it was before. You fail to see that it is a tier1 BS and that Heavy NOS actually have higher fitting reqs than the biggest tier guns of most races battleshipclass guns. Siegelaunchers are also very demanding on fitting reqs. You do not see many Armageddons with full TACHYON BEAM LASER outfits - Dominixes with full NEUTRON BLASTER CANNON or Scorpions with full SIEGE LAUNCHER/ 425MM RAILGUN outfit either. fit lower calibre guns or Cruise Launchers instead of Siege and realize that Heavy NOS have high fitting reqs and think out of the cookie-cutter box _ you have a point or do you just telling nonsense? I see lots of tachs on geddons (fleets). And since the phoon is a closerange ship it should be ok to fit long range launchers (cruise) together with closerange guns (autocannons) just to do less damage than the dominix which needs 0PG and 0CPU for its main weapon systems? -.- ohh god From Dusk till Dawn
Sandra Tseng THE MISPHIT'S	Posted - 2006.10.06 09:11:00 - [40] Edited by: Sandra Tseng on 06/10/2006 09:11:14 I think that the domi is slightly overpowered and should notbe compared as a "standard tier 1 BS template" I know I am not alone on this. As I said before. I have no problem fitting my Typhoon. I can fit lowest tier AC's and Siege-launchers or higher tier AC's and cruise launchers. Not every ship is a Dominix and thank kerensky for that... _ Killed my sig AGAIN! :p http://www.ninc.org/krubarax/images/2d/verydisco.jpg
Forsch Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.06 09:28:00 - [41] Originally by: Nafri you have a point or do you just telling nonsense? I see lots of tachs on geddons (fleets). Mann, mann, mann Nafri... Ever checked the PG that is left over on a geddon after fitting Tachyons? No way you can fit any form of decent tank on it. (And rightfully so.) Wonder who is 'telling' the nonsense here. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.06 09:28:00 - [42] I dont fly armageddons, but I remember someone saying that you can fit a full rack of tachyons AND a tank if you throw 2 RCU II on it...dont kill me if it isnt true, its just something I know I saw in these forums. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Trefnis Solidline Enterprise	Posted - 2006.10.06 09:57:00 - [43] Yes and try to fit 1400mm T2 and sieges and tell me its easier than tachs on arma... Its useless fit but if we talk about biggest guns then talk about biggest guns on both ships.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.06 11:42:00 - [44] Originally by: Sandra Tseng You fail to see that it is a tier1 BS and that Heavy NOS actually have higher fitting reqs than the biggest tier guns of most races battleshipclass guns. Siegelaunchers are also very demanding on fitting reqs. You do not see many Armageddons with full TACHYON BEAM LASER outfits - Dominixes with full NEUTRON BLASTER CANNON or Scorpions with full SIEGE LAUNCHER/ 425MM RAILGUN outfit either. If you want to be all high and mighty, omgz look at me I can say 'cookie cutter' to make myself look uber, realise a few things: -Tachs are an abhorration, and are the only BS weapon that is bigger than big, if you will. The real weapon to use for comparison in the case of long ranged guns would be Megabeam IIs. In this case, you should be comparing to a Megapulse II fitted Geddon, as the Phoon in question is fitting ACs and such. -Ships need appropriate fittings to fulfil their intended role. Tier 1 BS roles are very diverse. A Dominix does not need full Neutron Blasters, as it gains it's DPS primarily from drones. A Scorpion would not mount massive weaponry normally, because that isn't it's role. The Geddon is a gank ship, and can mount 7x Megapulse II, plus a Heavy Dim Nos, and still have 1300 grid left over. The Phoon is a close range combat ship, but cannot fit a good tank if it wants to fit reasonable weaponry. Woe betide if you ever want to fit something like a cap injector to a phoon, whereas other ships can simply drop down weapon tiers to do so, and in some cases (eg, domi) dont even need to do that. Quote: fit lower calibre guns or Cruise Launchers instead of Siege and realize that Heavy NOS have high fitting reqs and think out of the cookie-cutter box Saying a ship has no problems because it can fit undersized mods is wrong. Scrapheap Challenge Forums - All the cool kids are doing it!
Epislona Minmatar Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:01:00 - [45] my NPC level 4 running setup 4x cruise launchers 1 diminishing nos 2 dual 600mm ac 2 cap recharger II 100mn ab target painter 1 LAR II damage control and then combinations of active and passive hardeners in all instances where i can afford it, i use the "deadspace x-type" versions of the same equiptment... but when i orignally started running level 4's everything on the ship was "best T1-named or T2" and i did just fine... the faction gear is simply "ensuring my victory"... the afterburner is for being able to get close easily to the battleships that hang out at 50km and like to run away. and the painter is to get a little better damage with the cruise missiles on cruisers/frigs/ destroyers Without some serious skilling in your weapons running missions will be really tedious, as you won't have a high damage output (no damage mods) once you are into T2 drones/missiles/guns... everything should move along about as fast as you could hope. as far as PVP goes... i would go with 4 cruise launchers... lot's of NOS,cap injector, scram, ECM, painter, and a dual LAR tank ( i would have to do some fiddiling around to make sure all that fits...perhaps only 3 nos and one of those drone links that extend the range of drones.... now i am rambeling... "You Are Not Special"
Sandra Tseng THE MISPHIT'S	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:05:00 - [46] Edited by: Sandra Tseng on 06/10/2006 12:07:18 Did I offend you in some way and if so how? You are talking about roles yet you do not realize that the Phoon is a special ship without any assigned role. It is a jack of all trades, it is how it was supposed to be and it is in its description. Many ships in the game have this issue, that they can not fit full rack of best guns AND what you call "good" tank. Of all the tier 1 BS's the Dominix is an exeption and as I said before, it is slightly overpowered (that is why everyone flies one theese days) Calling dual 425mm Autocannons "undersized mods" is pretty wrong. They are Battleship class guns just as ELECTRON BLASTER CANNONS are. By undersized are you telling mey are cruiser class weapons? I do not want to be "all high and mighty, omgz look at me I can say 'cookie cutter' to make myself look uber", I am just saying that you should: Stop trying to make the Typhoon a dominix or raven or megathron. It has its own slot layout-desing, PG and CPU output, Speed, armor and so on - and if you can not make the best of what you got to work with - then get another ship. Again, sorry if I offended you for implying that you should try to think different. [Edit: Also let us not forget that it has the second biggest dronebay] _ Killed my sig AGAIN! :p http://www.ninc.org/krubarax/images/2d/verydisco.jpg
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:06:00 - [47] Edited by: welsh wizard on 06/10/2006 12:07:03 edit nm Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:29:00 - [48] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 06/10/2006 12:33:39 Originally by: Sandra Tseng Did I offend you in some way and if so how? No, but the general tone of people who repeat variations of "this ship is fine because I can make it work sometimes" annoys me. Any ship can be made to work when you have superior skillpoints, play ability, or an advantageous situation. If skills, skillpoints, and situation are equal, and ships equivalently equal, you should have a stalemate situation if balance is right. Currently, given equal of the above factors, every other BS in the game will beat a Phoon due to statistical differences. Originally by: Sandra Tseng I do not want to be "all high and mighty, omgz look at me I can say 'cookie cutter' to make myself look uber", I am just saying that you should: Stop trying to make the Typhoon a dominix or raven or megathron. It doesnt need to be any of them, in fact, with it's layout, it never could be. It just needs to use it's own layout effectively, which it doesn't do. Originally by: Sandra Tseng It has its own slot layout-desing, PG and CPU output, Speed, armor and so on - and if you can not make the best of what you got to work with - then get another ship. Both myself and the community at large are perfectly capable of making the best of what we're given. Not only with the Phoon, but with many ships of all races that are considered sub-par. The whole point of balancing is that you shouldn't have to make do just because a ship is poorly designed and/or implemented. Scrapheap Challenge Forums - All the cool kids are doing it!
Sandra Tseng THE MISPHIT'S	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:33:00 - [49] I use 4 dual600mm guns and 4 Cruiselaunchers (sometimes three laucnehrs anda NOS) cap support, AB and Web in mids and full tank in lows add a pretty huge dronebay to that, select the right ammo and tell me this ship is not dangerous enough? It is a skill intensive ship - common knowledge - but when you have those skills it pwns _ Killed my sig AGAIN! :p http://www.ninc.org/krubarax/images/2d/verydisco.jpg
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:45:00 - [50] Originally by: Sandra Tseng I use 4 dual600mm guns and 4 Cruiselaunchers (sometimes three laucnehrs anda NOS) cap support, AB and Web in mids and full tank in lows add a pretty huge dronebay to that, select the right ammo and tell me this ship is not dangerous enough? It is a skill intensive ship - common knowledge - but when you have those skills it pwns _ That's the entire point, though. There's very few hislot fits that it can use. With the above setup you can only fit a single large rep II. Every slot you mount a nos or other non-weapon module in worsens this situation. And stepping away from ship roles and keeping with the flavour that all ships should be variable according to your own initiative, try fitting even the 'low' fitting 4x 1200 II and 4x cruise II on a phoon. It ends up unable to even fill it's slots with normal 1 or 2pg mods such as sensor boosters etc. Now imagine trying to fit 1400s. At least a geddon can fit 6 Megabeam IIs without a fitting mod. Of course, you could drop to named items, and it could be argued that the ship shouldn't be able to fit everything maxed out, which I agree with. But the grid on this is SO low that it struggles to even fit average fittings. It's grid is, simply, insanely low. Scrapheap Challenge Forums - All the cool kids are doing it!
Loki Amarr Omni-Core Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:46:00 - [51] Edited by: Loki on 06/10/2006 12:48:21 Originally by: Sandra Tseng Edited by: Sandra Tseng on 06/10/2006 12:07:18 Did I offend you in some way and if so how? You are talking about roles yet you do not realize that the Phoon is a special ship without any assigned role. It is a jack of all trades, it is how it was supposed to be and it is in its description. Many ships in the game have this issue, that they can not fit full rack of best guns AND what you call "good" tank. Of all the tier 1 BS's the Dominix is an exeption and as I said before, it is slightly overpowered (that is why everyone flies one theese days) Calling dual 425mm Autocannons "undersized mods" is pretty wrong. They are Battleship class guns just as ELECTRON BLASTER CANNONS are. By undersized are you telling mey are cruiser class weapons? I do not want to be "all high and mighty, omgz look at me I can say 'cookie cutter' to make myself look uber", I am just saying that you should: Stop trying to make the Typhoon a dominix or raven or megathron. It has its own slot layout-desing, PG and CPU output, Speed, armor and so on - and if you can not make the best of what you got to work with - then get another ship. Again, sorry if I offended you for implying that you should try to think different. [Edit: Also let us not forget that it has the second biggest dronebay] _ he means that within a the large autocannon class dual 425s are the smallest tier. just as within within the large pulse laser class mega pulse are the highest tier, and duel heavy are the lowest. if you try and fit 800mm's II and siege launchers II(close range missiles) you end up with a measely 766 grid left over (AWU4). There is absolutely no way you can fit a tank with this, meaning you are automatically forced to lose a lot of damage per second in order to fit a tank or an mwd or a cap injector, let alone all 3. add to the fact that due to the split weapon config any damage mod you fit only effects half your guns, and it means that any setup you fit is automatically gimped to some extent. ok so you need more grid, you drop down to dual 425's and now you have 3800 grid left over \o/ i can actually fit a large armour repairer. 3800 - 2300 = 1500 grid remaining, what can i fit? injector? no Second LAR? no. You begin to see the problem? I'm not saying that you shouldnt have to make sacrifices in order to fit stuff but the fact that even on the lowest tier guns you cant fit 2 lar, lar + injector, and never mind 2 lar + injector is just silly. btw it's worth noting at this point that by going from mega pulse to duel hvy on a geddon frees up 1100 grid, per gun for a total of 7700 grid (or 2 lar, havy injector + mwd). This is why an extra 1 or 2k grid is not really a lot to ask, and would at least allow you to make reasonable trade offs between defence, offence, maneuverability and sustainability rather than having all bar perhaps one auto gimped. and never mind actually trying to squeeze on some long range weaponry Loki
Rawr Cristina Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:58:00 - [52] You have the fastest, lightest BS in game by far you just think its underpowered because you completely ignore that fact and try to make it a tank/gank ship instead. watch this movie and tell me the phoon is underpowered
Sandra Tseng THE MISPHIT'S	Posted - 2006.10.06 12:59:00 - [53] Listen man. 800mm ACs are the top tier minmatar closerange guns Try to fit a full rack of NEUTRON BLASTER CANNONS on a MEGATHRON (which should proove my point because it is even a Tier2 BS and Phoon is a tier1) With seven NEUTRON BLASTER CANNONS, Tech two or not, you do not have much grid to fit a good tank. Top tier guns are not generally ment for tier1 BS. It is generally Tank or Gank. When you choose top tier gusn you also chose gank. Another Megathron example: Neutron blasters: gank and very low or no tank at all. Ion Blasters: medium gank, medium tank Electron blasters: low gank, maximum tank _ Killed my sig AGAIN! :p http://www.ninc.org/krubarax/images/2d/verydisco.jpg
Norris Neophitus Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:03:00 - [54] Is this a joke thread, the phoon is possibly one of the best ships in eve, You can do anything with this ship if you have the skills. The drones just make it awesome, i mean you can use it as support, you can fit a beast of a tank, its a hell of a mission runner and as for pvp it can have so many different setups no one knows what they will be up against when a phoons shows up. It can snipe too tho i wouldnt recomend that role for it, it can even mine with a good set of drones and miner2's + torps/cruise missiles to keep you safe. Quit complaining and go train, leave my phoons alone. Plus it only costs like 60-70mil damn cheap for what it can do The thing to know about the phoon like most ships is it cant do all the jobs you want it to at once. Phoon = best ship in class Originally by: Wild Rho -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not emo, I just hate my life and no one understands me -----------------------------
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:07:00 - [55] Originally by: Rawr Cristina You have the fastest, lightest BS in game by far you just think its underpowered because you completely ignore that fact and try to make it a tank/gank ship instead. watch this movie and tell me the phoon is underpowered Ah, I was wondering before an OMGNANOPHOON fanboi would show up. I haven't even clicked the link and I know what it's going to be. Saying that a ship is not broken or in need of a change because you can fit an abhorrent one-trick pony setup on it is, unfortunately, not a valid argument. Scrapheap Challenge Forums - All the cool kids are doing it!
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:29:00 - [56] Main point for me is the fitting minimum tier BS weapons (Dual 425's and cruise) leaves you with (assuming AWU5) 5948.2pg. So for this minimum damage you want to fit a good tank, typically that consists of: Heavy Cap booster - 1750pg 2x Large Armour reps - 2000 pg each. T2 - 2300pg So can rule T2 reps out straight away. First the above leaves 198.2pg, not enough for plates or even a AB. We comprimised damage for tank and got.... a slow ship. If we fit a AB to try and take advantage of the "minmatar speed" we drop have to drop a rep, so we have average damage, average tank, average speed... Using ACs you have to get in range, and with a good starting speed you think you would be able to, its not like using all missiles/lasers and sitting 40km away doing full damage. Fitting it gank style is suicidal cos fitting damage mods is pointless you'd have to fit gyro's and bcu's as they only affect 4 weapons each where most other ships affect 6 weapons minimum. It needs another 500-1000pg at least to fit an AB with its minimum weapons/good tank setup. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Onin Ra Privateers	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:47:00 - [57] Phoon is fine for a tier1 BS. If you cant find a good use for it, fly a Tempest. And stop comparing it to t2 Raven. --- First pvp expirience in eve is alot like having first sex, you have absolutely no idea what you are doing, but it is exciting and one way or another its over way too fast.
Nafri Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.06 13:48:00 - [58] Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Nafri you have a point or do you just telling nonsense? I see lots of tachs on geddons (fleets). Mann, mann, mann Nafri... Ever checked the PG that is left over on a geddon after fitting Tachyons? No way you can fit any form of decent tank on it. (And rightfully so.) Wonder who is 'telling' the nonsense here. Wont be a great tank, but then agein, the geddon is made for megapulse lasers :p Anyway, as you can see as fitting suggestion it includes great stuff like medium armor repairs... From Dusk till Dawn
Sandra Tseng THE MISPHIT'S	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:12:00 - [59] Edited by: Sandra Tseng on 06/10/2006 14:12:30 Originally by: Tommy Vercetti Originally by: Sandra Tseng Top tier guns are not generally ment for tier1 BS. It is generally Tank or Gank. When you choose top tier gusn you also chose gank. Generally, those statements are very general. And false. But arguing with you would be like riding an exercise bike connected to a knife that would be continually stabbing me while I pedal. While someone all the time is standing behind you with a bazooka pointed to the back of your head, telling you to keep pedaliong or else.... _ Killed my sig AGAIN! :p http://www.ninc.org/krubarax/images/2d/verydisco.jpg
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:45:00 - [60] Ok, it's completely, painfully obvious that the shield and Armor values need to be changed. But giving it more than about 900MW grid or so just seems like it would overpower it to some extent. And for comparison, a Geddon with Megapulse II can't fit much else. Normally, a Geddon will fit 4 Megapulse IIs and 3 Dual Heavy Pulse IIs. Slightly less damage, but with a Co-Proc II and CPU implant you can fit a cap injector and and 2 LAR. A speed mod is pretty much out. If the Phoon had about 900 more grid you could use the setup I posted before with dual large reps or upgrade to Dual 650s with a med t2 and a large rep. Remember that with a MWD and the speed bonus the Phoon should be taking less damage than another BS because the drones and missiles aren't afraid of transversal. TBH it seems to me that giving it too much more grid puts it on the knife edge of being good, to being too good. A bit more wouldnt hurt though. I like that it needs the RCU II since the geddon/apoc and mega all struggle with CPU and putting a co-proc II on them is mandatory. Comparing to a Domi or Raven is slightly unfair since I think everyone can agree they are a bit too good atm. Hopefully that will change some with the Nos/ECM changes. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants

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