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ElRodeo
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Posted - 2003.10.27 12:49:00 -
[1]
i know lasers are good for a good old gank mission (kill asap) but the hybrids arent purely about damage, they are about a good regular stream of easy to maintain firepower atm.
anyone with rails has two major advantages over laser.
1. the power grid required to fit hybrids is alot less.
2. the cap use is alot less
the ying of that yang is this.
1. lasers do more damage
2. lasers dont need to be reloaded
3. higher tracking
the similar points are
1. range (both have similar range)
2. rate of fire
this means that anyone who is willing to spend some time actually trying new setups on their ship will find that all gallente ships are highly defensive in comparison to the amarr ones.
the dom for example can be equipped in a manner that will take a kicking from 2 apocs at once and still be able to fire back, knowing full well that its shields will hold. (tried and tested).
its all about your setup, your manner of fighting and how much attack vs defence you want.
a well equipped apoc (uber gank) and a well rounded megathron are well mached, and the test fight we ran ended up in a stale mate with the mega having full shields (desipte the uber damage inflicted) and the apoc having full shields (despite the huge power drain of the guns it was able to hold its shields against the less powerfull guns)
and people dont forget skills do matter.
dont expect to play well against a guy with all lvl 4 turret skills when you have only a few damage modifying skills. especially if you are heavily reliant on damage modifying modules.
sensible debates are welcome 
ElRodeo
May the Blood of the Innocent and the Righteous Cleanse me of my Demons.
May Any God you Choose to Worship Have Mercy Upon Your Soul
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StiZum Hilidii
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Posted - 2003.10.27 13:10:00 -
[2]
i would like to know the setup of the dom when holding hiss shields against to apocs. not bothered bout high slots whats he got on medium and low? low slots full of cap relays and medium with xl shield boosters?
STAN
FACTA NON VERBA |
ElRodeo
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Posted - 2003.10.27 13:19:00 -
[3]
easy, take :-
2 hardeners (em and thermal)
a shield amplifier (plus 30% to shield booster output)
an xl shield booster (or at least a large clarity ward)
alot of good cap skills
alot of relays and you are in business (i run 6 relays and a type-d diagnostic on my dom)
with the laser damage halved and your shields outputting 540 shield every 5 or so seconds you are a formidable opponent to anything stupid enough to take you lightly.
with my skills i can also fit 4 425's with ease so can give as good as i take 
ElRodeo
May the Blood of the Innocent and the Righteous Cleanse me of my Demons.
May Any God you Choose to Worship Have Mercy Upon Your Soul
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Nirvy
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Posted - 2003.10.27 15:11:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Nirvy on 27/10/2003 15:13:02
 Quote:
easy, take :-
2 hardeners (em and thermal)
a shield amplifier (plus 30% to shield booster output)
an xl shield booster (or at least a large clarity ward)
alot of good cap skills
alot of relays and you are in business (i run 6 relays and a type-d diagnostic on my dom)
with the laser damage halved and your shields outputting 540 shield every 5 or so seconds you are a formidable opponent to anything stupid enough to take you lightly.
with my skills i can also fit 4 425's with ease so can give as good as i take
OK 425mm Rail 101
Projectiles and Lasers do more than twice the damage.
Projectiles have greater Range
Projectiles use NO cap
Lasers need no Ammo, nor a need to reload.
Hybrids miss as much as projectiles, but do no where near the damage, and use a lot of cap.
Roght now 425mm Hybrids takes the worst of projectiles, and the worst of lasers, and rolls it all into one underpowered pea shooter.
Im sorry to say that 425 rails just cant compare to Tachys/1400/1200 weapons.
Mercenary | The Azath |
ElRodeo
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Posted - 2003.10.27 15:14:00 -
[5]
Edited by: ElRodeo on 27/10/2003 15:16:59
projectiles have the worst rate of fire in the game, its about damage per second, and with my setup i do 100 kinetic and 86 thermal a second. i can engage at 60 km and hit at about a 50% rate from there... with antimatter. care to try again?  oh and i can then pull my drones out on ur hybrid hating ass 
without any damage mods i get about 4x damage mod on my 425's and can equip 5 with no effort (not even a single cpu or powergrid enhancer)
to be honest the 425 is comparable to a mega beam and uses alot less cap.
ElRodeo
May the Blood of the Innocent and the Righteous Cleanse me of my Demons.
May Any God you Choose to Worship Have Mercy Upon Your Soul
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Jessica Logan
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Posted - 2003.10.27 15:14:00 -
[6]
I think the main complain about Hybrids is that they're mainly close-range weapons....and really, why take close range weapons to an artillery fight? o.O
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ElRodeo
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Posted - 2003.10.27 15:19:00 -
[7]
well obviously artys hit from further away, as i have tested but the refire is abysmal unless loaded out with a heck of alot of mods. and with my skills my 425 do get alot of range even with antimatter
ElRodeo
May the Blood of the Innocent and the Righteous Cleanse me of my Demons.
May Any God you Choose to Worship Have Mercy Upon Your Soul
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Nirvy
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Posted - 2003.10.27 15:19:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Nirvy on 27/10/2003 15:20:10
Quote:
Edited by: ElRodeo on 27/10/2003 15:16:59
projectiles have the worst rate of fire in the game, its about damage per second, and with my setup i do 100 kinetic and 86 thermal a second. i can engage at 60 km and hit at about a 50% rate from there... with antimatter. care to try again? oh and i can then pull my drones out on ur hybrid hating ass
without any damage mods i get about 4x damage mod on my 425's and can equip 5 with no effort (not even a single cpu or powergrid enhancer)
to be honest the 425 is comparable to a mega beam and uses alot less cap.
Any time you want a friendly duel, just Eve-mail me ingame. I Guarentee that you will lose shields or have your cap drained a long long time before my tempest does. The tempest with its +5% RoF and Damage makes projectiles rather good..
Mercenary | The Azath |
ElRodeo
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Posted - 2003.10.27 15:25:00 -
[9]
my cap and shields wont fail unless you have the equivalent of 2 ships worth of damage. even sucessive torps fired every few seconds make me giggle with delight i have no doubt that the projectiles go well with your minma ship but this doesnt mean that hybrids are bad on my gallente ship. i mean i have 52% damage boost to my guns before i equip a mod (i wub my skills) so i am not exactly low in my pain dealt.
again what makes hybrids bad i ask
ElRodeo
May the Blood of the Innocent and the Righteous Cleanse me of my Demons.
May Any God you Choose to Worship Have Mercy Upon Your Soul
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2003.10.27 15:26:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Bobby Wilson on 27/10/2003 15:29:37
Quote:
well obviously artys hit from further away, as i have tested but the refire is abysmal unless loaded out with a heck of alot of mods. and with my skills my 425 do get alot of range even with antimatter
The overall of the 425 is the problem. Base tracking is 66% of Tachyon beam, but base damage is less. The other issue is that L ammo is just way too large, making 425 use in deep space rat farming very impractical.
I have both 425s and Tachyons and haven't come to a final conclusion, but I do think at the very least 425s should track as well as Tachs...
BW
As for your original post suggesting Hybrid provide "easy to maintain firepower" I will again remind you of ammo size. You can't keep it up for an hour, let alone 3. Many members of my corp in Armageddons with Tachs and Mega beams do just that, rat farming 50K rats in deep space for hours on end making something like 3.5 mil per hour. All they need to maintain their fire with these L energy weapons is low slots full of diagnostics and cap boosters.... Can't rat farm for hours with 425s unless you have a support indy fully of ammo....
BW
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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ElRodeo
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Posted - 2003.10.27 15:31:00 -
[11]
with 2k anti in my hold i managed to rat kill for 4 and a half hours before running low on ammo and collecting all my goodies and falling off my chair into bed shortly after. and i dont use drones to rat kill before anyone suggests i had help
ElRodeo
May the Blood of the Innocent and the Righteous Cleanse me of my Demons.
May Any God you Choose to Worship Have Mercy Upon Your Soul
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Javi
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Posted - 2003.10.27 15:39:00 -
[12]
Quote:
i know lasers are good for a good old gank mission (kill asap) but the hybrids arent purely about damage, they are about a good regular stream of easy to maintain firepower atm.
a good regular stream of useless firepower that'll get cancelled out when you have to activate shield boosters cuz the laser user is doing too much dmg on you while your measly guns are doing... what?... little tickle here and there?
Quote:
anyone with rails has two major advantages over laser.
1. the power grid required to fit hybrids is alot less.
2. the cap use is alot less
again we go back to laser's dmg and a hybrider's shield boosters.
Quote:
the similar points are
1. range (both have similar range)
2. rate of fire
i have tested vs a geddon(which is a lvl 1 battleship, mind you) that has 4-5 tachyons against my 5 425s and 2 launchers. again i have to cancel 425s to run shield boosters.
Quote:
this means that anyone who is willing to spend some time actually trying new setups on their ship will find that all gallente ships are highly defensive in comparison to the amarr ones.
the dom for example can be equipped in a manner that will take a kicking from 2 apocs at once and still be able to fire back, knowing full well that its shields will hold. (tried and tested).
sorries mega here.
Quote:
its all about your setup, your manner of fighting and how much attack vs defence you want.
it is not about what you want. it is about what you need and when you needed which you will never know. unless ofcourse you set up a lovely date with whoever it is you're going to be shooting at and plan with him/her what setup to use.
Quote:
a well equipped apoc (uber gank) and a well rounded megathron are well mached, and the test fight we ran ended up in a stale mate with the mega having full shields (desipte the uber damage inflicted) and the apoc having full shields (despite the huge power drain of the guns it was able to hold its shields against the less powerfull guns)
joke... bordering on funny.
Quote:
and people dont forget skills do matter.
dont expect to play well against a guy with all lvl 4 turret skills when you have only a few damage modifying skills. especially if you are heavily reliant on damage modifying modules.
lvl 4 on gal bs, surgical strike, L hybrids and all engineering that works well on caps. to make it more interesting i removed mwds and fitted 2 heat hardeners. result: total disappointment.
i'd like to apologize for the mood but i'm still pretty <insert vulgar word> at the lack of balance =|
--
"well..."
-Estarriol, Evolution AZN Calculat |
Chucky
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Posted - 2003.10.27 15:49:00 -
[13]
2003.10.06 13:47:37combatYour 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I perfectly strikes Blood Arch Reaver, wrecking for 791.4 damage.
2003.10.18 02:55:28combatYour Tachyon Beam Laser I perfectly strikes Blood Arch Reaver, wrecking for 902.8 damage.
I don't have any notable hybrid results
I wouldn't say projectiles do half the damage per say, but toss in the ROF and how often they miss. And I'm not sure what projectile everyone is usen, since I've seen the light.
... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture. |
ElRodeo
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Posted - 2003.10.27 15:52:00 -
[14]
try training up some of the skills that help keep your cap up. i have tried and tested all this myself, so i know how much of a joke it isnt
i always equip to be able to fire constantly and shield boost while spamming torpedoes outta my 2 launchers. i hit have a damage rate of 100 kinetic and 86 thermal per second not including drones or torpedoes.
i never said all of this could be done easily, unfortunately there is alot of skill training to be done to get such a well rounded setup.
i know for a fact that my mega compares well with an apoc because my ceo has more sp than i and we recently had a little friendly scuffle ending in us both getting bored and still having full shields. i can sustain fire for at least 2 hours and can shield boost through my fire. at some points i may have to turn off a gun to keep my cap going strong, but i am still putting the opposition through the same process.
please try before you decide its lame, and dont try one setup before giving up.
its not always about the damage you know. especially if you can take that extra damage thrown at you with a smile
ElRodeo
May the Blood of the Innocent and the Righteous Cleanse me of my Demons.
May Any God you Choose to Worship Have Mercy Upon Your Soul
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ElRodeo
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Posted - 2003.10.27 15:57:00 -
[15]
my rails hit with amazing accuracy between 50 and 20 km, you may be surprised.
the best hit ive recorded with a 425 was 560.0
the average hit i do is about 180-250, a lame hit will get about 80.
and i can hit from further than 50 km with antimatter.
/emote contemplates getting a bite my antimatter bumper sticker
ElRodeo
May the Blood of the Innocent and the Righteous Cleanse me of my Demons.
May Any God you Choose to Worship Have Mercy Upon Your Soul
|
Thrak
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Posted - 2003.10.27 16:36:00 -
[16]
Sorry that's a load of rubbish. The only way you'd have higher skills (which you keep referring to as the solution) than me is if you have them at lvl 5.
I have all cap related skills at 4. All gunnery skills at 4 (except traj. analysis and med hybrid). Gallente battleship at 4.
Lasers and projectiles work better at the moment. I've had hits at around 595 with 425s. They still suck.
Neutrons do decent damage, but the tracking on them sucks- and the optimal is way to short for a L weapon.
The point is even tho I can turn out a decent PvP setup (if only due to the skills I have) if I had trained in lasers and amarr battleship or projectiles and minm battleship I would be in a much better position.
(Oh and RE you not running out of ammo it means you're not killing the rats fast enough - spawns are reactive and will spawn faster if you kill them faster. I use 425s to spawn cos that's what my skills are high in, with 6 425s on my mega I run out of ammo before cap)
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Blurk
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Posted - 2003.10.27 16:46:00 -
[17]
The best hit I ever got using a 425mm railgun and antimatter ammo was 550 points.
That was on a target heading straight towards me and in optimal range. I was sitting still.
I normally hit for around 200 points at optimal range using antimatter ammo. |
Sequin
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Posted - 2003.10.27 16:50:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Sequin on 27/10/2003 16:52:37
Hate you burst a bubble, but I was testing with Javi (whose skills are well trained and ship is setup well) and his average hit at a range of around 24km was less than 150. Meanwhile, I scored one wrecking of 859, and a non wrecking of 588 and had hits above 400 50% of the time, the other 50% being hits over 300. I use 1400mms, and my rof is 12 seconds, and will be on par with tachyons when i boost my rapid fire skill. I took down Javi's shields in about two volleys, and I hadn't even had to hit my shield booster yet.
Sorry, but having been through that there is no way in hell I'll ever believe someone when they say hybrids are well balanced.
Oh, and one of our projectile users had a wrecking of 1128 with a 1400mm, eat that tachyon users;)
^A Raem Civre Original
EVE-Trade, for your buying and selling needs. A Voogru original.
[i]Redon > evol and mass have a GM helping them with everything
Redon > notice how they always get ships replaced and none of us cant <--- Hurray for teamwork!
b]
We are evil exploiters! |
Xander Teg
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Posted - 2003.10.27 17:04:00 -
[19]
I think it is more or less universally accepted that the Large Hybrids are in need some loving in the next patch to make them comparable to the other Large turrets.
I would be mucho regretting training up for a BS whose ship bonus was for Hybrids if it wasn't for the fact that i can just equip 6 launchers and shoot torps.
_________________
"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
-Rudyard Kipling
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Draginslayer
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Posted - 2003.10.27 17:10:00 -
[20]
Am I the only one that notices this... 425's and tach's are in two different categories... compare the 425 to the beam and then you will see similar results. The tach was a special turret that uses alot more power grid and alot more cap for alot more dmg. The disadvantage is you need 6 power relays to see a cap capable of holding guns and shield booster. They need to implement 4250 powergrid hybrids but what hybrid ship can really sustain many of those. Why give caldari really huge hybrids and allow them to use lots of missles and lots of EW equip.
Just my 2cents. I think most of the weapons(exceptions for a few) are relativily fair. I wouldn't expect to throw proj on after a few tachs and do anywhere near the same amount of dmg, but to use the proj i dont need 6 power relays and can put other useful low slot items on.
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darth solo
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Posted - 2003.10.27 17:14:00 -
[21]
With lasers, most rats seem to be using MULTI L.
The damage from tachyons can be halved with a thermal hardener.
Its really all about fitting the rite setup.
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ElRodeo
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Posted - 2003.10.27 17:40:00 -
[22]
here is a simple formula to determine your damage per second.
in brackets i will use my current setup as an example, current is with only one damage mod.
add all damage mods (4.42 x 5 = 22.1)
divide total by rate of fire (22.1 / 6.09 = 3.63)
now times the result by your ammo damages / crystal damages
(3.63 x 24Kin = 87.12 3.63 x 20Therm = 72.6)
the output is your damage per second per damage type.
add that with the fact that em and thermal hardeners are easy to come by.
you end up with a ship doing 87 kinetic and 72 thermal a second. with a 50% reducion to em and thermal damages,
a 30% boost to shield booster output (shield amp not as easy to find)
and gaining 239 shield every 3 seconds (sustainable while firing)
it would take a lot of damage to get those shields down, while you are taking the brunt of those 425's
ElRodeo
May the Blood of the Innocent and the Righteous Cleanse me of my Demons.
May Any God you Choose to Worship Have Mercy Upon Your Soul
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.27 18:09:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 27/10/2003 18:10:02
Quote:
here is a simple formula to determine your damage per second.
in brackets i will use my current setup as an example, current is with only one damage mod.
add all damage mods (4.42 x 5 = 22.1)
divide total by rate of fire (22.1 / 6.09 = 3.63)
now times the result by your ammo damages / crystal damages
(3.63 x 24Kin = 87.12 3.63 x 20Therm = 72.6)
the output is your damage per second per damage type.
add that with the fact that em and thermal hardeners are easy to come by.
you end up with a ship doing 87 kinetic and 72 thermal a second. with a 50% reducion to em and thermal damages,
a 30% boost to shield booster output (shield amp not as easy to find)
and gaining 239 shield every 3 seconds (sustainable while firing)
it would take a lot of damage to get those shields down, while you are taking the brunt of those 425's
Now I'm not one of those mathema... erm, mathame... bah, f00k it! One of dem dar eggheads dat be good wit numbas. But I can recognize your fomula is skewed.
Damage mods haven't stacked cumulatively since m0o I believe. And the recent modification to stacking mean the more modules that affect a particular attribute, the less effective they are.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
ElRodeo
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Posted - 2003.10.27 18:16:00 -
[24]
im not talking modifying modules. im talking add up all the damage mods on your guns
then you have your total damage mod done in your refire time. so you divide this by the refire time to get the damage mod per second, which when multiplied by the ammo / crystal damage types gives you the damage per second. you see it works fine. 
ElRodeo
May the Blood of the Innocent and the Righteous Cleanse me of my Demons.
May Any God you Choose to Worship Have Mercy Upon Your Soul
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.27 18:18:00 -
[25]
Quote:
im not talking modifying modules. im talking add up all the damage mods on your guns
then you have your total damage mod done in your refire time. so you divide this by the refire time to get the damage mod per second, which when multiplied by the ammo / crystal damage types gives you the damage per second. you see it works fine.
Ah...den I's withdraw mah staterment 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
ElRodeo
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Posted - 2003.10.27 18:55:00 -
[26]
hehe, no worries
if possible can people follow that little formula and paste:-
1. Any slot info you are willing to disclose
2. Damage types per second
3. Actual range stats
4. Observed range and hit %'s
5. cap use per second
6. Defence rates per sec(hp healed and resist %'s)
7. Can you sustain cap at full load? (give info)
this could become a very constructive post
ill post my stats when i get time
ElRodeo
May the Blood of the Innocent and the Righteous Cleanse me of my Demons.
May Any God you Choose to Worship Have Mercy Upon Your Soul
|
Morlocke
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Posted - 2003.10.27 19:27:00 -
[27]
Quote:
here is a simple formula to determine your damage per second.
in brackets i will use my current setup as an example, current is with only one damage mod.
[Snip all the formula stuff, see above]
it would take a lot of damage to get those shields down, while you are taking the brunt of those 425's
While I am in agreement with your ratio, your conclusion at the end here I think is going to raise some eyebrows - someone may be 'taking the brunt' of the 425s, but a shield booster similarly equipped with a 30% reinforcement and a couple of appropriate hardeners of their own will nullify your damage output.
Overall, this sounds like a stalemate to me...which, if you look at it big-picture, is balanced.
Personally, I like the idea of hybrids, but I'm a little disappointed at their lack of punch. I'd like to ring someone's bell a few times ).
But then, it's always pretty simple to train up a different breed of ship.
M
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Mr Blonde
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Posted - 2003.10.27 19:36:00 -
[28]
Considering the hybrids are supposed to combine the best of lasers and projectiles into one.. to become the most damaging force in the game (while taking both negatives, namely ammo and cap) its still kinda skewed that they are the weakest of the 3....
__________________________________________
Are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you gonna bite?? |
Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.10.27 20:03:00 -
[29]
Yes but hybrids are the only weapon containing silver in its make-up and therefor the sole weapon that can hurt the jovians... Nope, can't even roleplay this out of the wet bag, why isn't diversity promoted?
Tachyons or busting tables at a station, waiting for the proper skills to finish. Alternatives are just spectacular ways of dying.
Convert Stations
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Ardanwen
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Posted - 2003.10.27 20:40:00 -
[30]
Quote:
add that with the fact that em and thermal hardeners are easy to come by.
Antimatter large: 20 thermal, 24 kinetic
Add a thermal hardener anda kinetic one and you half the damage done by hybrids. Oops forgot that when calculating the damage differences? Granted hybrid has the choice of 3 damage types but those other ammo do less damage anyway.
While your calculation for lasers might be correct you assume an anti laser setup for the hybrid user but no anti hybrid setup for the laser user and thus your conclusion is completely wrong.
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