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Ozawi Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.06 19:49:00 - [1] Originally by: Morreia There's no defense vs missiles? =( ------------------------------------------------ This sig is mine. There are others like it, but this one is mine alone. Mods keep out, or I will drop trou and sprinkle some tinkle in your Cheerios! -I don't eat Cheerios. -ReverendM
Morreia	Posted - 2006.10.06 19:49:00 - [2] Edited by: Morreia on 06/10/2006 19:52:28 Edited by: Morreia on 06/10/2006 19:51:44 Soz, pressed enter. Anyways, this is just one of those random ideas i get. Do you think a module that effectivly creates time bubbles around missiles leaving target ship thereby slowing them down and also slowing down the explosion velocity would be ok. This would mean they would be shorter range and wouldnt do as much damage, or even no damage if they couldn't catch up with the ship slowing them down. They would therefore act in a very similar way to TD's. Please comment. P.S. I still think we need a mod to decrease sig radius but thats a different matter.
Valhalior Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.10.06 19:59:00 - [3] Simlpy no. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:00:00 - [4] Nope, but a medium slot tracking disruptor for missiles is needed. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:03:00 - [5] Or they could fix defenders. And let people fit them in utility slots.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:06:00 - [6] Just make a defender launcher like the current rocket launcher, but that can't fire rockets and uses a utility slot. Then speed up defenders tenfold. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:10:00 - [7] No.. what's next ...you also need Neo to show up and stop the bullets from the guns for you too with a waive of hand?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:11:00 - [8] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/10/2006 20:13:15 Well, the turret version of the tracking disruptor require just a medium slot, and I think the missile version should require the same thing. Defenders suck for many reasons as a missile defense system. Even if they worked. I think the biggest reason is that they dont disrupt all missiles, while the tracking disruptor works against all turrets. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:13:00 - [9] Originally by: Verus Potestas Just make a defender launcher like the current rocket launcher, but that can't fire rockets and uses a utility slot. Then speed up defenders tenfold. duh... defender misiles can be fired from ANY launcher, it's up to you to fit them.. and you should be spanking yourself for letting these misiles hit you.. No defense against misiles?? lol.. there is no defense against bullets if you ask me, misiles are almost 100% preventable with same caldari ship fitted defensively... don't know what you complain about.. the fact you've never used defense misiles is maybe something you should look into next time.. yes it's a hassle but you don't get any damage to your ship.. ...try to prevent a 1400mm volley the same way...
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:15:00 - [10] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/10/2006 20:16:08 Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Verus Potestas Just make a defender launcher like the current rocket launcher, but that can't fire rockets and uses a utility slot. Then speed up defenders tenfold. duh... defender misiles can be fired from ANY launcher, it's up to you to fit them.. and you should be spanking yourself for letting these misiles hit you.. No defense against misiles?? lol.. there is no defense against bullets if you ask me, misiles are almost 100% preventable with same caldari ship fitted defensively... don't know what you complain about.. the fact you've never used defense misiles is maybe something you should look into next time.. yes it's a hassle but you don't get any damage to your ship.. ...try to prevent a 1400mm volley the same way... There is a perfect defense vs turrets. Normal med-slot tracking disruptors. They make their damage go down alot.. just try them. Works perfectly, and against all turrets. Now if only multispectrals wouldnt totally overshadow their popularity... =) And you shouldnt have to fly a Raven with defenders to defend against its missiles, just like you dont have to fly a Tempest to defend against turrets. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

Vathar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:21:00 - [11] Hey scorpio, have you ever tried to use defenders in pvp? Defenders simply aren't fast enough to catch missiles launched from missileboats (missileboats have a missile velocty bonus) if you get fired at sub 50km range, even wors within 20km. (They take time to lock onto a missile and go to it, and the missile usually reaches you before the defender destroys it) Defenders will only catch ONE missile in a burst, since they target the closest one. A single defender won't take down a torpedo Should I keep listing? ___________________________________________ Originally by: Stamm Minmatar are kind of like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair firing
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:26:00 - [12] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/10/2006 20:16:08 There is a perfect defense vs turrets. Normal med-slot tracking disruptors. They make their damage go down alot.. just try them. Works perfectly, and against all turrets. Now if only multispectrals wouldnt totally overshadow their popularity... =) And you shouldnt have to fly a Raven with defenders to defend against its missiles, just like you dont have to fly a Tempest to defend against turrets. Dude, read the module description first before posting: tracking disruptor --> Disrupts the turret range and tracking speed of the target ship. NOT THE DAMAGE... how will a tracking distruptor help in a BS vs BS ship for example when both targets are so slow and fighting up close ? just don't see it working.. oh and do you really sacrifice 1-2 modules when you go out in your less than BC ship for tracking distruptors ? don't think so... even in a BS you rarely use the, just as the defender misiles.. maybe in a specialized ship as the scorpion which is perfect for this use, or the special op ships but hey... nerfing misiles more.. ? ? ? check my post regarding T2 Anti-ship torpedoes and please, suggest something meaningful next time.. Misiles are Caldari trade mark, just as Drones for Gallente, should you create a slow down drone module then cause you really have no other defence agains them but a large bomb ? how often do you fit one? and what about small ships.. you see where this is going....
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:29:00 - [13] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/10/2006 20:31:22 Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/10/2006 20:30:56 Originally by: Black Scorpio Dude, read the module description first before posting: tracking disruptor --> Disrupts the turret range and tracking speed of the target ship. NOT THE DAMAGE... how will a tracking distruptor help in a BS vs BS ship for example when both targets are so slow and fighting up close ? just don't see it working.. oh and do you really sacrifice 1-2 modules when you go out in your less than BC ship for tracking distruptors ? don't think so... even in a BS you rarely use the, just as the defender misiles.. maybe in a specialized ship as the scorpion which is perfect for this use, or the special op ships but hey... nerfing misiles more.. ? ? ? check my post regarding T2 Anti-ship torpedoes and please, suggest something meaningful next time.. Misiles are Caldari trade mark, just as Drones for Gallente, should you create a slow down drone module then cause you really have no other defence agains them but a large bomb ? how often do you fit one? and what about small ships.. you see where this is going.... What do you think happens with the damage per second when you start missing? As for the rest of your post, im sure others can comment on your lack of understanding of things... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:30:00 - [14] Originally by: Vathar Hey scorpio, have you ever tried to use defenders in pvp? Defenders simply aren't fast enough to catch missiles launched from missileboats (missileboats have a missile velocty bonus) if you get fired at sub 50km range, even wors within 20km. (They take time to lock onto a missile and go to it, and the missile usually reaches you before the defender destroys it) Defenders will only catch ONE missile in a burst, since they target the closest one. A single defender won't take down a torpedo Should I keep listing? dude, train your defender skill to lvl 5 and then well talk, defender misiles also get the misile boost that other misiles do as well, in addition to the defender misile skill. Misiles are caldari. if you nerf that it's like nerfing a race for using this weapon! then we should get the axe and start nerfing all other races for what they fight with the most.. drones, lasers, and being brave in the Minmatar case
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:31:00 - [15] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Black Scorpio Dude, read the module description first before posting: tracking disruptor --> Disrupts the turret range and tracking speed of the target ship. NOT THE DAMAGE... how will a tracking distruptor help in a BS vs BS ship for example when both targets are so slow and fighting up close ? just don't see it working.. oh and do you really sacrifice 1-2 modules when you go out in your less than BC ship for tracking distruptors ? don't think so... even in a BS you rarely use the, just as the defender misiles.. maybe in a specialized ship as the scorpion which is perfect for this use, or the special op ships but hey... nerfing misiles more.. ? ? ? check my post regarding T2 Anti-ship torpedoes and please, suggest something meaningful next time.. Misiles are Caldari trade mark, just as Drones for Gallente, should you create a slow down drone module then cause you really have no other defence agains them but a large bomb ? how often do you fit one? and what about small ships.. you see where this is going.... What do you think happens with the damage per second when you start missing? As for the rest of your post, im sure others can comment on your lack of understanding of things... personal attacks don't really serve any purpose in threads, but create more of them.. i'll refrain from such..
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:32:00 - [16] Originally by: Black Scorpio personal attacks don't really serve any purpose in threads, but create more of them.. i'll refrain from such.. Its not a personal attack to say that you dont understand how something works. And I usually dont mind explaining it, but I get the feeling you wouldnt agree with me no matter what I typed... so I dont bother. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jacob Holland Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:32:00 - [17] Defenders are one of the few things in game that still cause splash damage - a Raven firing 6 Torps in burst formation will do nothing to a ship firing three or four defenders if they can get there in time. The real problem with Defenders is when it comes to ships like the Incursus, Punisher and Thorax, ships which simply have absolutely no way of using them. Something like a Particle beam weapon creating stasis web bubbles (very small ones) and effecting missiles in the same way as a tracking disruptor is needed. But then a Missile Navigation Computer is also required (performing the same function as a Tracking Computer for Missiles).
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:41:00 - [18] If you really want your idea to have a merit: 1. Create a module that disrupts misile ROF and range. Damage is already affected by target size, velocity and explosion radius...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:51:00 - [19] Originally by: Morreia Edited by: Morreia on 06/10/2006 19:52:28 Edited by: Morreia on 06/10/2006 19:51:44 Soz, pressed enter. Anyways, this is just one of those random ideas i get. Do you think a module that effectivly creates time bubbles around missiles leaving target ship thereby slowing them down and also slowing down the explosion velocity would be ok. This would mean they would be shorter range and wouldnt do as much damage, or even no damage if they couldn't catch up with the ship slowing them down. They would therefore act in a very similar way to TD's. Please comment. P.S. I still think we need a mod to decrease sig radius but thats a different matter. No damage? lower explosion velocity ? I might just fit my ship with a mix of NOS+vamps and bombs then as i mentinoed above, there is a module for distrupting targetting, just expand it to distrupt launchers too, it's not that hard... if you have to nerf it. However if you've talked to the devs, there are a lot more things taken in consideration when dealing with Misiles/Guns.. so it's realy not that clear cut.. the game is balanced well.. Just ask the numerous caldari pilots losing to other 3 races ships every day, apparently misiles alone are not the key in this game..
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:53:00 - [20] This post was aimed at the following statement of yours: Originally by: Jim McGregor [ As for the rest of your post, im sure others can comment on your lack of understanding of things... this is a personal attack at the person not helping with the topic my man..

Kitarra RONA Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:57:00 - [21] E-on (think it was issue 2) ran a competiton to design a new module. My suggestion was for a mid-slot chaff/flare launcher which had a chance of breaking the lock of missile(s) that were tracking your ship, with the option of firing single decoys or bursts of say 3-5 'rounds' at a time for a reload penalty. I have no idea if there was ever a winning module selected from this comp, but I reckon I deserve a prize You can still argue that missile boats have to have a lock on the target ship before they can launch missiles at you, so if you use sensor dampeners & ECM, with no lock theres no fire. Maybe we could get a point defence gatling gun, kinda like the phalanx/goalkeeper anti-missile defence systems onboard current navy ships, to take out missiles? The other alternative is to ahve a better tank & kill the missile spamming bugger before he kills you drunken ramblings coming to a sig near you soon!! ---Kit---
Morreia	Posted - 2006.10.06 20:58:00 - [22] Originally by: Jim McGregor Nope, but a medium slot tracking disruptor for missiles is needed. Thats effectivly what I meant by this idea. It would have all the same effects on missiles that tracking disruptors have on turrets. Apart from increasing the time it would take them to hit you if you are within their new max range.
Storm Strike	Posted - 2006.10.06 21:04:00 - [23] How about a point defense mode on turrets
Morreia	Posted - 2006.10.06 21:15:00 - [24] Look, I use missiles, I still however think its not fair how the only things you can effectivly do is fly a faster or smaller ship whereas turrets have EW designed to counter them.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.06 21:31:00 - [25] Originally by: Morreia Look, I use missiles, I still however think its not fair how the only things you can effectivly do is fly a faster or smaller ship whereas turrets have EW designed to counter them. That DOESN'T make any sense Morreia.. I won't even begin to think what you really want from the game.. all you can do is fly faster or smaller ship in game? and these other guys have these "cool" features as distruptors, wooo, LOL... out of mind?
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.06 21:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Verus Potestas Just make a defender launcher like the current rocket launcher, but that can't fire rockets and uses a utility slot. Then speed up defenders tenfold. duh... defender misiles can be fired from ANY launcher, it's up to you to fit them.. and you should be spanking yourself for letting these misiles hit you.. No defense against misiles?? lol.. there is no defense against bullets if you ask me, misiles are almost 100% preventable with same caldari ship fitted defensively... don't know what you complain about.. the fact you've never used defense misiles is maybe something you should look into next time.. yes it's a hassle but you don't get any damage to your ship.. ...try to prevent a 1400mm volley the same way... I know defenders can be fired from any launcher. And that is fine, but not all ships have or can spare a launcher hardpoint. I think there should be a seperate launcher for them which doesn't require a launcher hardpoint. Defenders are **** at the moment. They just can't catch the faster missiles before they hit you, hence my suggestion of speeding them up. I have a 26million SP caldari character as well as this one, and I can tell you, if someone uses defender launchers on me, I laugh in their face. When someone uses tracking disruptors on this character, I cry. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.06 21:52:00 - [27] Defenders are pretty fast, especially with lvl 4-5 on them, however it's that swerve to the side before they hit the misile that sometimes messes things up. Otherwise, they do the job, it's not easy to activate the launcher when a misile is airborn but a proper vew while fighting and hitting the F keys is not that bad. Maybe as you said there should be a defender launcher not requiring misile slot. That will also take care of the point of defense gun that was suggested! Why use that when you already have a point defense misile of a sort.. Making it active at all times as soon as misile launches also would help greatly.. will make it too easy tho since that effectively kills the misile, while with guns, it still enables the user to shoot just miss at times. imagine a distruptor that effectively cancels your gunfire.. you wouldn't like one of these now would you..
Vathar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.06 21:52:00 - [28] I used defenders before the missile changes (that's some time ago!) so I trained the defenders skill ... can't connect ATM, but it's probably trained at 3 ... Now if you get shot by missiles within 20km (combat range for scrambling, BS to BS), cruise missiles take about 3 seconds to reach their target, defenders launch, take as long as a second to acquire a target, and maybe a bit more than a second to intercept it with perfect skills (most of the time, they fly past their target once and have to turn around to hit their target) practically it means that a defender MIGHT hit a missile if it's fired just after the missile launches, ONLY if there is no closer missile in space at the moment it's launched (in which case it will go for the closest and miss it) ... great At longer ranges (20-50km), you might catch a missile now and then, but if you enemy staggers fire, you'll only catch the first missile of the fight. Somebody said defenders have kept their AoE, which I'm highly doubtful, back in the old missile days, I trained recruits, this training included avoiding missiles via defenders and smartbombs, and when firing bursts of missiles, defenders would only take one down, sometimes two when I fired from far enough (smartbombs destroyed entire volleys but that's another matter, missiles are too fast now to be caught by smartbombs, especially if there's the slightest lag) Unless they've reintroduced AoE with the missile patch ... So with moderate defenders skills and extensive experience using them before and after the missile patch, I stand by what I said, defenders are useless except at extreme ranges where you could simply warp away! Now, the way you talk about Tracking disruptors tell me you don't know anything about them. I'm not trying to be offensive here but it's the truth. Yes the greatly reduce damage from turrets, since they ruin their chances to hit to the point of nothingness! In BS vs BS combat, 2 tracking disruptors will reduce the incoming damage drastically if you fly smartly and keep transveral high enough (being able to tank a blasterthron with a light tank is what I call "drastically reducing turret damage"). A single TD will render a BS unable to hit cruisers (once again if they fly smartly, I faced a pilgrim once in my rupture, he TDed me without building its transveral and ended up running away, hopefully I was cap dried and unable to keep him scrambled; that's not what I call flying smartly) Now back to defenders, an interesting fact : they require hislots missile hardpoints! not all ships can mount them, and those who can usually have better stuff to fit there (offensive missiles for missileboats, NOS for closerange turretboats ...) You might end up sacrificing 2 hislots for a neglectible dps reduction from missileboats, while tracking disruptors utterly RUIN turrets and require midslots ___________________________________________ Originally by: Stamm Minmatar are kind of like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair firing
GrumpyCat	Posted - 2006.10.06 22:13:00 - [29] Tracking disrupters are overpowered. Remove them and their countermeasures(tracking computers,tracking enhancers).
Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.06 22:30:00 - [30] Edited by: Frezik on 06/10/2006 22:30:55 Originally by: Black Scorpio This post was aimed at the following statement of yours: Originally by: Jim McGregor As for the rest of your post, im sure others can comment on your lack of understanding of things... this is a personal attack at the person not helping with the topic my man.. Personal attack is if I call you an idiot. Saying you have a lack of understanding of the finer points of Eve, when there is demonstratable evidence for it, is not a personal attack. Target disrupters cause turrents to miss more often. When they miss, they don't do any damage. Therefore, target disrupters reduce damage. QED. Defenders need to be turned on when you have missiles in-bound. When you take into account pilot reaction time, lag, and time for the defender to lock on, you will be lucky to shoot down even one missile in short and medium range engagements. Missiles used at longer ranges (torpedos) have higher hit points, so one defender will not take them out. The next defender out of your launcher will not lock onto a torp that is already targetted by another defender. Even if defenders have an AoE (which I doubt), a good raven pilot could cycle the launches to have one torp fireing every 2-3 seconds, thus making only one defender hit one torp. Therefore, defenders will rarely shoot down a single missile. QED. Additionally, defenders will only hit missiles inbound on you. They can't help your gang mates. Target Disrupters help everyone on your team. Before the missile changes, I once completely shut down kestrals in a corp 2v2 frig contest using defenders. Those days are long gone.



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