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An open letter to the pilots of Alliance warfare

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Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 01:49:00 - [1] Edited by: Louisa Torres on 08/10/2006 01:50:29 Of course, specifically, to ASCN. Over the last few days we've had various accusations thrown at us on how we hax logins, cause node crashes on purpose and various other, for want of a better word, excuses as to why we're coming out on top. There are a number of reasons for this, in order they are: 1 - Discipline 2 - Experience 3 - Luck So, in an attempt to increase the gaming experience of EVERYONE in EvE, but specifically to try and help certain parts of our opponent get over themselves and hush the whining, I'm going to explain what I do (note, this is me, personally, what other pilots do may vary, some may do things that I do not know about that also help, hell some of this stuff might not help at all and maybe some of it makes a difference, who knows?). I've previously posted all of the data that will be concerned in this post in various threads and in the different sub-forums so don't worry, I'm not actually giving away any secrets. 1 - Discipline We do as we're told. It's as simple as that. We follow our fleet commands without question, sometimes it gets us killed, most of the time that discipline wins us battles in the most immense of odds. We don't spam teamspeak, we don't harass people in gang, we keep quiet, we use the comms channels available to us to find out the answers we need to be an effective cog in what becomes a smooth running machine. 2 - Experience Not only does experience of combat give us the discipline that is so important, it also means we know what to expect in any given situation AND how to customise our client to get the best possible performance. I personally remove ALL colours and tags on my overview. I also have different overview settings for different shiptypes and roles. If I'm in a battleship and we're in a large fleet fight the only shiptype I show is that of a battleship. The only column I show is NAME. I don't have range showing, at all, it's a needless client calculation that you simply don't need and people who also then show velocity or transversal (etc) need their head checking and will get absolutely no sympathy from me when their client lags in a big fleet op. We ensure our turrets and effects are turned off and our view is zoomed out to the max until the enemy fleet warps in, or when we jump through a gate, we have our overviews minimised until the enemy fleet is visible. I personally play in windowed mode, you should be able to work out which graphics settings are optimal for your client and you can also assign more memory to your client in the prefs.ini file in \ccp\eve\settings. I've also found that removing the z buffer helps aswell. Experience also teaches me that when I'm logging back in after a ctd, or after a node crash, I will close the crashed client, reload another instance (contrary to some claims I (and we) do NOT sit with another instance already open in anticipation of a crash), login, select my character and WAIT for entering game. We don't sit their whining about it, we don't keep rebooting the client, we just SIT. It may take 10s, it may take 10mins, we_just_sit_there - we'll load eventually. 3 - Luck I would say this is pretty self explanatory, but everyone needs it some time. Maybe the two CRITICAL points above mean we make our own luck, but who can really say? At the end of the day, ladies and gentlemen, beyond all the accusations of ccp favouritism, cheating, haxing, regardless of how we behave on these forums and the personas we play in this GAME, when you come up against me, when you come up against RKK and when you come up against BoB we're playing by the same rules as everyone else. If people cannot handle that, if this simple truth is unbelievable to you, if you need to convince yourself that the only way YOU could POSSIBLY lose is if the opponent is cheating then it is my humble opinion that you may need to reassess why you play EvE and what it is you seek to get out of it.
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 01:50:00 - [2] I've never cheated, I've never witnessed those I fly with, cheat and I guarentee you that if I DID witness such a thing I would be first in line to petition it. Sit down, relax, don't hate the players, hate the game.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.08 01:58:00 - [3] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/10/2006 01:59:12 Clearly, this is mere BoB propaganda. We all know that the GMs are just BoB alts. Or are they? (On a more serious note: agreed, wholeheartedly, and completely. When we jumped into Huzzah space quite a while back, we got a giant whine thread complaining about how we had used a "login trap" when we had simply jumped into their system through the gate. Once Hans realized his scout was wrong, however, he retracted the accusation and had a mod lock the thread.) -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Selpy 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.08 02:01:00 - [4] Originally by: Louisa Torres I've never cheated, I've never witnessed those I fly with, cheat and I guarentee you that if I DID witness such a thing I would be first in line to petition it. Sit down, relax, don't hate the players, hate the game. That is soo 90's, didn't work for Booker T, and it doesn't work for you :P Look deep into these eyes, they'll be the last thing to see you!
Sir Erighan The Syndicate Inc Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 02:06:00 - [5] We all hate this game ATM. It's just some people are benefiting while others are being taken advantage of. It's frustrating when a node crashes, BoB is able to load 190 people into TPAR and ASCN can only load 10. Yeah, it could be luck, but when it happens each and every time a node crashes, people start to ask questions. Personally, I'm not accusing BoB of using any exploits, but I would like CCP to explain the situation and what it is we're doing wrong. We know how to optimize our clients, so there has to be another reason.
m0jo Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.10.08 02:06:00 - [6] Quote: 1 - Discipline 2 - Experience 3 - Luck I disagree with the third one. Ive never experienced luck when in a BoB fleet cuz we always ownerized everything.
Vily Lilium Venture Initiative	Posted - 2006.10.08 02:11:00 - [7] very nice post. constructive and very postive. the information while quite obvious to most people is very useful to newer players. qudos, for giving ascn information that they should all have. im still rooting for ascn, but a very pleasant move from a BOB player ------------------------ Listed as Such, I claim nothing but existense. know me true -Vily
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 02:13:00 - [8] Edited by: Louisa Torres on 08/10/2006 02:13:59 Originally by: Sir Erighan We all hate this game ATM. It's just some people are benefiting while others are being taken advantage of. It's frustrating when a node crashes, BoB is able to load 190 people into TPAR and ASCN can only load 10. Yeah, it could be luck, but when it happens each and every time a node crashes, people start to ask questions. Personally, I'm not accusing BoB of using any exploits, but I would like CCP to explain the situation and what it is we're doing wrong. We know how to optimize our clients, so there has to be another reason. I ask this with absolutely no malice, Sir E: Are you absolutely sure your gangmates are trying to log in? I'm with you 100% though, IF you are doing exactly the same things that we do, IF you are replicating our discipline, dilligence and patience following a node crash then I, too, would want to know why it takes you guys so much longer to get logged back in.
Cabadrin Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.08 02:20:00 - [9] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/10/2006 01:59:12 Clearly, this is mere BoB propaganda. We all know that the GMs are just BoB alts. Or are they? (On a more serious note: agreed, wholeheartedly, and completely. When we jumped into Huzzah space quite a while back, we got a giant whine thread complaining about how we had used a "login trap" when we had simply jumped into their system through the gate. Once Hans realized his scout was wrong, however, he retracted the accusation and had a mod lock the thread.) Oi! You stole my map! Also, I agree with the OP's main points. Discipline is essential, and experience only makes it easier to listen to the FCs. That's a large part of why the MC is so successful. _______________________________________________
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.10.08 02:22:00 - [10] Very nice post Louisa, very generous of you to share some tips with the rest of EVE... I hope you have bkmrked this thread.. ... so you can refer back to it everytime BoB gets accused of OMGXPLOITHAXXOR!! etc...
Sir Erighan The Syndicate Inc Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 02:23:00 - [11] Edited by: Sir Erighan on 08/10/2006 02:23:54 Well, I can only hope our members are logging in so they can provide additional backup, which I know they're doing because we all talk about on TS. Again, it's just frustrating and we're only trying to understand the situation.
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.08 02:24:00 - [12] Good post. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Grimster Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.08 02:29:00 - [13] Edited by: Grimster on 08/10/2006 02:30:12 Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/10/2006 02:25:31 Clearly, this is mere BoB propaganda. We all know that the GMs are just BoB alts. Or are they? Nice try but your diagram is blatantly inaccurate, you have an arrow running directly from CCP to ASCN, this in conjunction with the arrow that flows from CCP through ISD then into BoB PROVES that your diagram is an on-the-spot fabrication. These forums are not the place for your fabrications! Aside from that Great post Louisa
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.08 02:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Grimster Originally by: Dark Shikari Clearly, this is mere BoB propaganda. We all know that the GMs are just BoB alts. Or are they? Nice try but your diagram is blatantly inaccurate, you have an arrow running directly from CCP to ASCN, this in conjunction with the arrow that flows from CCP through ISD then into BoB PROVES that your diagram is an on-the-spot fabrication. These forums are not the place for your fabrications! Unlikely--that diagram was created by an MC member! -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Ardpirate Phantom Squad iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.08 02:37:00 - [15] Edited by: Ardpirate on 08/10/2006 02:42:27 gj bob may the best person win im pished :}
Grimster Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.08 02:44:00 - [16] Originally by: Dark Shikari Unlikely--that diagram was created by an MC member! Got that from the URL. But it goes to show you the MC is in no way connected to ANY dev accounts despite the insistance of some <aehm> members of the community. Here's another thing, when you're jumping gates in fleet, hit jump, ctrl and TAB to minimise your UI, just before you jump it will maximise again giving you a second or 2 to ctrl TAB again and you should jump successfully without emergency warping on the other side. Probably
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.08 02:53:00 - [17] Originally by: Grimster Originally by: Dark Shikari Unlikely--that diagram was created by an MC member! Got that from the URL. But it goes to show you the MC is in no way connected to ANY dev accounts despite the insistance of some <aehm> members of the community. Here's another thing, when you're jumping gates in fleet, hit jump, ctrl and TAB to minimise your UI, just before you jump it will maximise again giving you a second or 2 to ctrl TAB again and you should jump successfully without emergency warping on the other side. Probably Oh... that's definately one I haven't heard before. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Major Dim Caldari Russian SOBR Red Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.08 02:58:00 - [18] Some words about the afternodecrashbacklogin. It seem that if u have a fleet sitting on a gate and another fleet that has hit warp to the gate and then the node crashed - the ones on the gate can log on muuuch faster. On the other hand if the node crashed while a gang jumped through a gate while the other were waiting behind it - the jumping in guys seem to be in favour of the servergods and can login back faster.
Goberth Ludwig eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:04:00 - [19] good post, respect - Gob [IXC] Admiral Goberius
Dortock The Scarlet Harmonic	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:11:00 - [20] Good post, but it lacks.. 4. Band of Brothers Navy Issue H4xx0rz Gives BoB pilots increased damage, range, tracking and a once-an-hour ability to destroy a ship of your choice instantly. Available only to pilots flying under the BoB banner. King Tinfoil Hatter
Red Six Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:16:00 - [21] Originally by: Dortock Good post, but it lacks.. 4. Band of Brothers Navy Issue H4xx0rz Gives BoB pilots increased damage, range, tracking and a once-an-hour ability to destroy a ship of your choice instantly. Available only to pilots flying under the BoB banner. It's Fleet Issue not Navy Issue
Barwinius Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:24:00 - [22] Thank you for the post and subsequent replies, it is appreciated.
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:32:00 - [23] Edited by: Rikeka on 08/10/2006 03:33:38 Edited by: Rikeka on 08/10/2006 03:32:22 Louisa, I dont want to create a thread about it, so I¦ll just ask here... Can you explain the 3311 ship kills of the last hour (3314 in the last 24 hours) in B-DFU while there are only 5 peeps in local?
Riddari Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:32:00 - [24] Your list lacked a little something. 4. Spies ¼+¼ a history
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:35:00 - [25] Originally by: Rikeka Edited by: Rikeka on 08/10/2006 03:33:38 Edited by: Rikeka on 08/10/2006 03:32:22 Louisa, I dont want to create a thread about it, so I¦ll just ask here... Can you explain the 3311 ship kills of the last hour (3314 in the last 24 hours) in B-DFU while there are only 5 peeps in local? Am I missing something? :$ No system by that name. Sounds fun though.
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:37:00 - [26] Edited by: Rikeka on 08/10/2006 03:40:10 Edited by: Rikeka on 08/10/2006 03:37:26 Sorry, ment B-7DFU (Querious) You can¦t miss it, the red circle reaches up to Domain.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:40:00 - [27] Originally by: Rikeka Edited by: Rikeka on 08/10/2006 03:37:26 Sorry, ment B-7DFU (Querious) You can¦t miss it, the red circle reaches up to Domain. Well you see... FIX lost a very large fleet. We had logged on all our alts and all of BoB's alts, and even all of MC's alts (even though they're the same characters as BoB's alts) but ACSN superweaponed all the Velators -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:41:00 - [28] Edited by: Rikeka on 08/10/2006 03:41:45 Err, DS. I¦m just curious, I¦m not trying to flame. Honestly curious.
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:42:00 - [29] Originally by: Rikeka Edited by: Rikeka on 08/10/2006 03:37:26 Sorry, ment B-7DFU (Querious) You can¦t miss it, the red circle reaches up to Domain. wow, I see what you mean. 3311 ships destroyed in the last hour. Not a single jump in the same time period, 6 pilots active average in the last 30 minutes. There are no bugs in eve, only features ;)
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Riddari Your list lacked a little something. 4. Spies Spies, though certainly useful, are not essential to winning, Riddari. We generally operate under the assumption that there ARE spies everywhere, that way we aren't surprised if it's actually true.
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:45:00 - [31] And there are no stations there. For a sec I though I was the only one that noticed till, when I mentioned it, others told me they could see it too.
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:50:00 - [32] Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: Riddari Your list lacked a little something. 4. Spies Spies, though certainly useful, are not essential to winning, Riddari. We generally operate under the assumption that there ARE spies everywhere, that way we aren't surprised if it's actually true. However, Louisa Torres is going to be booted from BoB for giving away our sekrits and will be agent hunted from now until eternity for lying about the fact that it is actually Dev accounts and h4xsploits that give us an advantage. ... or not.... Hope you learn a little from this post some of our enemies because we'd like a nice fight on a gate one of these days when the node comes back up again. Eve Blacklight Style
Riddari Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:50:00 - [33] Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: Riddari Your list lacked a little something. 4. Spies Spies, though certainly useful, are not essential to winning, Riddari. We generally operate under the assumption that there ARE spies everywhere, that way we aren't surprised if it's actually true. Spies are demoralizing. A good FC can come up with a good plan which normally would bag a few kills. A member of his gang relaying every single movement and order to the hostile gang undermines it, it demoralises the gang members and in all honesty, isn't very sporting. When fighting against BOB we have had to resort to ordering gangs to align for gate X and state "I'm taking us to gate X at 100km" and instead warp the gang to gate Y at 20km to engage the hostiles there. Seeing entire fleets warp away the moment an FC activates gang warp, seeing gang messages relayed into local by the opponents, knowing that someone is playing a game with you on your team who is doing his damned best to use foul play. That isn't part of a good gaming experience, the one you want to portray. You should evaluate your opponents, work out their previous tactics, see how they respond, scan them, whatever one can do within the limits of the game. But having spies copy/paste-ing commands, plans, convos, voice communications, is incredibly lame. Obviously not everyone feels this way, but I doubt I'd enjoy a sport where a member of my team supplies the opponents with our entire gameplan and playbooks. ¼+¼ a history
Riddari Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:51:00 - [34] Originally by: Blacklight Hope you learn a little from this post some of our enemies because we'd like a nice fight on a gate one of these days when the node comes back up again. I personally have no need to learn from BOB. Thanks though. ¼+¼ a history
Dungar Loghoth Caldari Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:59:00 - [35] Originally by: Riddari Obviously not everyone feels this way, but I doubt I'd enjoy a sport where a member of my team supplies the opponents with our entire gameplan and playbooks. Spies are part of the game, and they are the unfortunate downside to having an alliance with 5,000 people in it. I doubt BoB has many spies because Blacklight/Dianabolic/Galavet could probably name each member in their corp if push came to shove - 1,100 is a much more managable number. Spies are pretty much the ultimate blob-counter.
Ultroth Minmatar Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.08 04:00:00 - [36] Edited by: Ultroth on 08/10/2006 04:00:37 Louisa, your sig is truly horrifying it's on-par with Manfred sig in the "Unwanted mental images section" Apart from that, and just to prevent such rubbish entering such an excellent thread; BOB = DEV alts MC = BOB alts FIX = MC/BOB alts (McFix is born, do you want fries with that?) If this holds true, isnt everyone an alt of cyvok? The 1st two points make the last i think in a lot of situations, if youre crap at those you wont get the last... "It's better to stay silent and appear stupid, than to open your mouth and leave no doubt!"
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 04:03:00 - [37] But you guys also use Spies, Riddari. Do you do so just because we use them? Or do you use them to gain the same advantage that they deliver when used effectively? I am not a spy, I don't have the time and I don't find espionage in EvE very exciting or interesting but some people do enjoy it. From the great con, to theft, to espionage, to whatever. That is the way they choose to enjoy this game. I learnt about 3 days in to playing this game that I cannot force people to play the game the same way I would do so, in doing so I found I enjoyed the game more. EvE is a hardcore game, did you have any consideration for the pilots of Tribal Soul, for example, when ASCN removed them from Paragon Soul? Do you not think that in doing so your gamestyle intruded on that of another? That's basically what you're saying to us with regards to spying, isn't it? You're saying that the way we play the game offends, for want of a better word, your own sensibilities. That's fair enough, of course, and as I'm sure you and every other reasonable person would agree it means not a single thing in this game world that CCP have created for us. I embraced the wealth of different specialisations, roles and opportunities that EvE has to offer on that 3rd day, I stopped caring how other people played the game and jsut concentrated on how I wanted to play it. In the course of doing so I have of course upset people, made them cry, I'm sure some have even quit. That's a shame but, ultimately, I've had an amazing time. Those around me have had an amazing time. If I thought about how others want to play this game I'd never have time to play it myself. It's not hard to work out which I'd rather do, and I'd heartily suggest you do the same.
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 04:10:00 - [38] Originally by: Riddari Originally by: Blacklight Hope you learn a little from this post some of our enemies because we'd like a nice fight on a gate one of these days when the node comes back up again. I personally have no need to learn from BOB. Thanks though. Everybody can learn from everybody else, Riddari, no one knows everything, even if you learn what NOT to do, you still learn.
Astasia Orian Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 04:10:00 - [39] Quote: A member of his gang relaying every single movement and order to the hostile gang undermines it, it demoralises the gang members and in all honesty, isn't very sporting. If we're going to talk sporting, what's the stance on logging to save your pod, again and again and again?
Devoras2 Amarr Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 04:20:00 - [40] Respect to the topic starter for the advice and tips. Still its fairly useless when we have spies revealing every single move we execute. Dev And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Lord Draco Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 04:23:00 - [41] Tbh, most of what you think are spies are people who are 'scanner gods'. These are the people that crunch numbers to see if you are moving or not. The spy excuse is way way overblown tbh. Most of the guys are too drunk or tired to bother.
Klaryssa Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 04:55:00 - [42] Originally by: Devoras2 Respect to the topic starter for the advice and tips. Still its fairly useless when we have spies revealing every single move we execute. Dev I have yet to be in a gang where we got a kill because of a spy. Every single one has come from good Scanning, Cov Ops work, and great decisions by an FC. I think you guys are letting paranoia take over. Although, I can understand its the only excuse remaining... ;)
Devoras2 Amarr Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 05:14:00 - [43] Originally by: Klaryssa Originally by: Devoras2 Respect to the topic starter for the advice and tips. Still its fairly useless when we have spies revealing every single move we execute. Dev I have yet to be in a gang where we got a kill because of a spy. Every single one has come from good Scanning, Cov Ops work, and great decisions by an FC. I think you guys are letting paranoia take over. Although, I can understand its the only excuse remaining... ;) cough Originally by: Cyleth Village People 1 - 0 ASCN end of For those in BoB who knew what that was, it was surely funny for you guys. For those that dont know, it was a BoB spy using the login name "Village People", and started to sing on our TS like a wanna-be idol. It surely confirms that BoB has several spies on our TS. So dont give me that nonsense that EVERY kill and prediction of our movements has come from good scanning, cov ops etc. Our excuse? Our paranoia? Were not excusing ourselves, or resulting to paranoia. Were just pointing out the fact that the almighty BoB cant win their "clean and fair fights", without using teamspeak and forum spies... and offcourse resorting to hate postings on the EVE-O forums. Not much better then AAA/RA tbh. Dev And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 05:24:00 - [44] Devoras2 - you claim that we CANNOT win a fight without using ts spies (forum spies are a moot point, the intel they provide isn't in realtime). You are incorrect in that assumption. Up until this war I have actually NEVER had the benefit of a teamspeak, realtime, spy. Yet I've won the vast majority of fights I've been involved in. As Riddari says, a good FC can work out plans and tactics without a spy. The same good FC can work out plans that also take in to account a compromised communications system. What that CANNOT do is account for our practiced teamwork and discipline. Sure, it can give us forwarning of a warp-in, or the direction of a warp-in, or who is calling targets and all that juicy goodness that, erm, we can find out anyway. You're, in my opinion, overstating what benefits a spy would give. We obviously believe this, otherwise why would we start singing to you and completely burn that source? You also accuse us of RA / AAA style tactics, which I assume you mean as logon/offski tactics. Well, that's not the manner in which I shall be conducting myself in this thread, perhaps you'd like to start another one up and we can compare notes?
Ab Initio Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 05:26:00 - [45] Edited by: Ab Initio on 08/10/2006 05:27:45 Originally by: Riddari Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: Riddari Your list lacked a little something. 4. Spies Spies, though certainly useful, are not essential to winning, Riddari. We generally operate under the assumption that there ARE spies everywhere, that way we aren't surprised if it's actually true. Spies are demoralizing. A good FC can come up with a good plan which normally would bag a few kills. A member of his gang relaying every single movement and order to the hostile gang undermines it, it demoralises the gang members and in all honesty, isn't very sporting. When fighting against BOB we have had to resort to ordering gangs to align for gate X and state "I'm taking us to gate X at 100km" and instead warp the gang to gate Y at 20km to engage the hostiles there. Seeing entire fleets warp away the moment an FC activates gang warp, seeing gang messages relayed into local by the opponents, knowing that someone is playing a game with you on your team who is doing his damned best to use foul play. That isn't part of a good gaming experience, the one you want to portray. You should evaluate your opponents, work out their previous tactics, see how they respond, scan them, whatever one can do within the limits of the game. But having spies copy/paste-ing commands, plans, convos, voice communications, is incredibly lame. Obviously not everyone feels this way, but I doubt I'd enjoy a sport where a member of my team supplies the opponents with our entire gameplan and playbooks. You guys really need to learn to use: A. Scanner. B. Cov-ops. Seriously, we dont need spies to have a cov-ops tell us you're aligning. We dont need spies to see you show up on scanner in a certain direction from us. If you aren't using the same completely legitimate (and encouraged, hell theres a ship class for it) don't jump to the conclusion that it's because we're spying on you. That said, if we do have spies listening to you, we are unlikely to have them sing on your TS.... EDIT: And on a more positive note.. Turning off damage messages and disabling logging makes a big difference too.

Ductoris Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.10.08 05:41:00 - [46] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/10/2006 02:25:31 Clearly, this is mere BoB propaganda. We all know that the GMs are just BoB alts. Or are they? Hold on, am I a BoB alt or a MC alt? I want to get my BoB/MC toon forum rules \| Email us\| Our Website! "Wait, there is a game?" There is no game -Kaemonn We wub you ductoris - Xorus <3 teh ducky - Immy

patteSatan Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.08 05:45:00 - [47] A very good post by the OP, and I hope we will see more of the same kind of posts, from other alliances.
Devoras2 Amarr Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 05:55:00 - [48] Originally by: Louisa Torres Devoras2 - you claim that we CANNOT win a fight without using ts spies (forum spies are a moot point, the intel they provide isn't in realtime). You are incorrect in that assumption. Up until this war I have actually NEVER had the benefit of a teamspeak, realtime, spy. Yet I've won the vast majority of fights I've been involved in. As Riddari says, a good FC can work out plans and tactics without a spy. The same good FC can work out plans that also take in to account a compromised communications system. What that CANNOT do is account for our practiced teamwork and discipline. Sure, it can give us forwarning of a warp-in, or the direction of a warp-in, or who is calling targets and all that juicy goodness that, erm, we can find out anyway. You're, in my opinion, overstating what benefits a spy would give. We obviously believe this, otherwise why would we start singing to you and completely burn that source? You also accuse us of RA / AAA style tactics, which I assume you mean as logon/offski tactics. Well, that's not the manner in which I shall be conducting myself in this thread, perhaps you'd like to start another one up and we can compare notes? I never claimed BoB could win using just TS spies. I was counter argumenting Klaryssas generalyzing statment that BoB won every engagment, and prediction of our movement due to good scanning, cov ops etc. WITHOUT using spies EVERY time. As for my assumptions im not accusing or attacking you as a person for your tactics. Im accusing those certain elements and players in BoB, who DO resolve to using spies to get the upper hand. That has been very clearly proven by Cyleths post. I agree with Riddari. A good FC knows how to elude and get spies off guard. What your belief and ideals of the usage of spies, doesnt serve or honour my ideal. Spying is a cowardly act imo. Not daring to face the challenge without knowing everything. What fun is that? You ruin the game, then making it more exciting. We are simply "ideological" disagreed. And that source was burnt when your spy started to sing on our TS. All "juicy" info couldnt have been revealed without them. Period. As for comparing BoB to AAA/RA, it was not in a manner off loggoski and the such. Just to point out that certain people in BoB resolve to TS/forum spies as a similarity (loggoffski)to get the upper hand in combat. Dev And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Ab Initio Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 06:05:00 - [49] I would dare say that anyone who says there alliance doesn't use spies, simply isn't a high enough ranking member to know about them.
Shittake RONA Deepspace Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.08 06:23:00 - [50] Very good post Louisa. People have claimed that BoB cheat, perhaps some individuals within their ranks may, who knows, but I highly doubt the claim that there is a coordinated haxxorz plan on BoB's part, and the claims that they are "CCP favored". I think those who say this are stuggling to justify a loss in battle against you and instead of looking within first, they lash out at the victors and claim foul play.
Sadist Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.08 06:48:00 - [51] Originally by: Ab Initio I would dare say that anyone who says there alliance doesn't use spies, simply isn't a high enough ranking member to know about them. I would agree. òòòòòòòòòòòò VIP member of the [23] Quote: - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
zyphentits Sector 7	Posted - 2006.10.08 06:50:00 - [52] Originally by: Sir Erighan Edited by: Sir Erighan on 08/10/2006 02:10:32 We all hate this game ATM. It's just some people are benefiting while others are being taken advantage of. It's frustrating when a node crashes, BoB is able to load 190 people into TPAR and ASCN can only load 10. Yeah, it could be luck, but when it happens each and every time a node crashes, people start to ask questions. Personally, I'm not accusing BoB of using any exploits, but I would like CCP to explain the situation and what it is we're doing wrong (besides trying to jump 100+ fleets into the enemy under the current game mechanics which is another topic entirely ). We know how to optimize our clients, so there has to be another reason. very very very interesting ---------------------------------------------
Ab Initio Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 06:58:00 - [53] Originally by: zyphen** Originally by:** Sir Erighan Edited by: Sir Erighan on 08/10/2006 02:10:32 We all hate this game ATM. It's just some people are benefiting while others are being taken advantage of. It's frustrating when a node crashes, BoB is able to load 190 people into TPAR and ASCN can only load 10. Yeah, it could be luck, but when it happens each and every time a node crashes, people start to ask questions. Personally, I'm not accusing BoB of using any exploits, but I would like CCP to explain the situation and what it is we're doing wrong (besides trying to jump 100+ fleets into the enemy under the current game mechanics which is another topic entirely ). We know how to optimize our clients, so there has to be another reason. very very very interesting I can't speak for everyone else. But when I've been in system during a node crash, I: 1. Close the client. 2. Make sure it's completely unloaded. 3. Start a new client. 4. Login as normal. 5. Wait. No particular tricks other than taking the opportunity to restart the client. Never have too much of a problem getting back in.
Masta Killa BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.10.08 07:16:00 - [54] To quote a certain TV personality: Could this thread -be- any more egocentric? I don't think anyone cares about Luisa something's thoughts anymore, they're always exactly the same ignorant and arrogant blabber. -------------------------------------- "It's like, we show up and UDIE."
ratking Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 07:37:00 - [55] Originally by: Masta Killa To quote a certain TV personality: Could this thread -be- any more egocentric? I don't think anyone cares about Luisa something's thoughts anymore, they're always exactly the same ignorant and arrogant blabber. Go away, idiot.
Klaryssa Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 08:52:00 - [56] Originally by: Devoras2 Originally by: Klaryssa Originally by: Devoras2 Respect to the topic starter for the advice and tips. Still its fairly useless when we have spies revealing every single move we execute. Dev I have yet to be in a gang where we got a kill because of a spy. Every single one has come from good Scanning, Cov Ops work, and great decisions by an FC. I think you guys are letting paranoia take over. Although, I can understand its the only excuse remaining... ;) cough Originally by: Cyleth Village People 1 - 0 ASCN end of For those in BoB who knew what that was, it was surely funny for you guys. For those that dont know, it was a BoB spy using the login name "Village People", and started to sing on our TS like a wanna-be idol. It surely confirms that BoB has several spies on our TS. So dont give me that nonsense that EVERY kill and prediction of our movements has come from good scanning, cov ops etc. Our excuse? Our paranoia? Were not excusing ourselves, or resulting to paranoia. Were just pointing out the fact that the almighty BoB cant win their "clean and fair fights", without using teamspeak and forum spies... and offcourse resorting to hate postings on the EVE-O forums. Not much better then AAA/RA tbh. Dev I fail to see how singing Village People on TS made your entire fleet engage and die? My statement still stands tho: No gang Ive been in has gotten a single kill from anything that could be attributed to a spy. To my knowledge, nor have any other BOB gangs. The sad thing is, even though we were respected friends once, I am starting to see a 'Counter-strike' mentality appear... theres no longer things such as a good fight; if you get killed the other guy must be cheating somehow. The truth is we ARE good; blowing things up is what we do. We've had a lot of practice, regardless of what any propaganda says. Please take this post (and thread) in the spirit it was intended. We still have a lot of respect for ASCN... There is no way Imperium or the like would recieve a thread like this. <3
Yazoul Samaiel Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 08:54:00 - [57] As the OP has explained these basic fundemntals of dicilipined operations are the only real I WIN button in eve , every singpel person who tired leading a gang knows exactly how ppl get messy and undiciplined if he lets go and usualy that is the bane of their success. It no just stfu on TS or do and die , it is a mix of this combined with good intel and well XP players who know that they are doing and if they dont , they listen and follow those who do. Ranks and operations are based on who knows what and how well he knows it , if person X is a good covert ops pilot then he is scout period , there is "ohh no i dont want to be a scout i wanan get kill mails or i wanna go npcing " type of crap that i have seen in several alliances. Also there is a point which wasnt mentioned which is the Will to fight , Eve is devided between 2 types of ppl , ppl who log on to fight and ppl who log on to avoid it or run away from it , BOB is about ppl who enjoy this game and log on and pay for it to get in fights everytime , thats the real diff. As for spies , everyone uses them and they are part of gathering intel , no shame in them or exploitation or else every covert ops pilot is a dirty rotten spy and needs to be hanged. As for Gms and hax or bla bla bla tinfoil hattery hokus pokus . Bob ships explode , we get podded , we lose some engaments, we need isk to buy stuff , we lag , we get CTD , our clienst crash just like every single EVE paying customer so wear ur hats gents if u gonna belive that "There is no such thing as innocence , only different degrees of guilt"
Lowa Gallente North Star Networks	Posted - 2006.10.08 09:15:00 - [58] Edited by: Lowa on 08/10/2006 09:16:08 Added 2 of that I didnt see mentioned yet. Quote: 1. Close the client. 2. Make sure it's completely unloaded. 2b. Clean out the cache directory 3. Start a new client. 3b. Disable all logging (damage, chats etc) 4. Login as normal. 5. Wait. I would say that 2b is for logging in faster. I've done it several times when first bein unable to log back, clearing it and being back ingame within (less than) 5mins. A node drop is a bit different but I would be very surprised if it does not help for that too (when the node is back up). 3b works for battle lag (at least for me). Cheers, Lowa ps. There are some good tips in here, tbh I had forgotten some. What if the truth was something else?
HordeZla Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 10:00:00 - [59] Originally by: Sir Erighan Edited by: Sir Erighan on 08/10/2006 02:10:32 We all hate this game ATM. It's just some people are benefiting while others are being taken advantage of. It's frustrating when a node crashes, BoB is able to load 190 people into TPAR and ASCN can only load 10. Yeah, it could be luck, but when it happens each and every time a node crashes, people start to ask questions. Personally, I'm not accusing BoB of using any exploits, but I would like CCP to explain the situation and what it is we're doing wrong (besides trying to jump 100+ fleets into the enemy under the current game mechanics which is another topic entirely ). We know how to optimize our clients, so there has to be another reason. With the most respect, all bob log in the second it crashes, we run the risk of not winning the field. To me it would seem that not all ascn pilots are prepaired to do the same
Draahk Chimera Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.08 11:48:00 - [60] There is a foolproof way to deal with spies: Make things up as you go. Sounds like a joke but it isnt. I hope anyone who fought with or against us gives us enough credit to admit we do kinda well. Often though we just form a gang and say: so what do we do now? Because there is no planning there is nothing for the spies to report :) And miss Torres: The winners always gets accused of cheating, you win a lot so you get accused a lot. Yes its frustrating but see it like this instead; if someone just accused you of cheating it probably meant you just kicked his ass :)
nickky01 No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.08 12:52:00 - [61] about the whole spy thing...in 9CG we ran into the prob where people started sayin there were bob spys on teamspeak...then in GQ2 it happend again, the FC and others started going through the list on teamspeak, seeing who was in gang...i havn't been playing for very long, but IMO there's several things you can do to get by this...(feel free to criticize/burn me, i dont mind) 1. if you KNOW you have a spy (and your the FC) have your cov ops pilots convo you, and work that way. it might get boring on teamspeak, but dont say anything about whats going on. a good covert ops will be the deciding factor in fleet battles 2. dont EVER warp to fight out of your POS. i.e. sit at your POS, align everyone to X gate or Y gate or the station, say ok were going in at 100...bad idea. always assume there's a cov ops watching your POS. i think i had some more, but i just woke up and forgot what i was typing about
Rimhawk Caldari Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.08 14:58:00 - [62] Originally by: Ultroth Edited by: Ultroth on 08/10/2006 04:00:37 BOB = DEV alts MC = BOB alts FIX = MC/BOB alts (McFix is born, do you want fries with that?) If this holds true, isnt everyone an alt of cyvok? The 1st two points make the last i think in a lot of situations, if youre crap at those you wont get the last... I extrapolated a bit further and came to the following conclusion: We all don't really exist, we're all just Oveur playing against himself? (This would also probably indicate the single biggest case of multiple personality disorder on this side of the known universe) . Rimhawk Winds of Vengeance (W8V)
killerco Gallente Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 15:21:00 - [63] Respect too the OP for the info. Don't be a great man just be a man
Masta Killa BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.10.08 15:38:00 - [64] Originally by: Louisa Torres Over the last few days we've had various accusations thrown at us on how we hax logins, cause node crashes on purpose and various other, for want of a better word, excuses as to why we're coming out on top. Has no one actually read this? -------------------------------------- "It's like, we show up and UDIE."
hermot Amarr The Syndicate Inc Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 15:45:00 - [65] Sorry, but one of your people recording our ts, when we replicate something done by yourselves proves that you have spies.. HERE Lets be honourable, order your spies off ts, order your spies if there are any, out of our corps, and lets have the fights without them... If you are the noble force you seem to think you are, you wouldnt need to use these methods to ensure victory. So how about you try it without them.. Then come back with a post like this.. Until then, dont claim to not be using things to gain an advantage, when you CLEARLY have spies on Teamspeak ALL of the time
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 15:53:00 - [66] Originally by: hermot Sorry, but one of your people recording our ts, when we replicate something done by yourselves proves that you have spies.. HERE Lets be honourable, order your spies off ts, order your spies if there are any, out of our corps, and lets have the fights without them... If you are the noble force you seem to think you are, you wouldnt need to use these methods to ensure victory. So how about you try it without them.. Then come back with a post like this.. Until then, dont claim to not be using things to gain an advantage, when you CLEARLY have spies on Teamspeak ALL of the time hermot, I've made an effort, in this thread, to simply be a "Player" of EvE, not an opponent. Your own alliance uses EXACTLY the same tactics, so no - we won't stop using them. Yes, we gain advantage in as many ways as possible, what we do not do is exploit THE GAME. You'll notice my attitude and posting mannerisms are very different in this thread than any other on this forum. There's a reason for that.
Sunghi Tsu	Posted - 2006.10.08 15:55:00 - [67] Originally by: Louisa Torres hermot, I've made an effort, in this thread, to simply be a "Player" of EvE, not an opponent. Your own alliance uses EXACTLY the same tactics, so no - we won't stop using them. Yes, we gain advantage in as many ways as possible, what we do not do is exploit THE GAME. You'll notice my attitude and posting mannerisms are very different in this thread than any other on this forum. There's a reason for that. I can confirm that ASCN have been ordered NOT to use tactics such as TS spies, and members WILL be kicked if they are doing this.. No questions
killerco Gallente Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 16:07:00 - [68] Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: hermot Sorry, but one of your people recording our ts, when we replicate something done by yourselves proves that you have spies.. HERE Lets be honourable, order your spies off ts, order your spies if there are any, out of our corps, and lets have the fights without them... If you are the noble force you seem to think you are, you wouldnt need to use these methods to ensure victory. So how about you try it without them.. Then come back with a post like this.. Until then, dont claim to not be using things to gain an advantage, when you CLEARLY have spies on Teamspeak ALL of the time hermot, I've made an effort, in this thread, to simply be a "Player" of EvE, not an opponent. Your own alliance uses EXACTLY the same tactics, so no - we won't stop using them. Yes, we gain advantage in as many ways as possible, what we do not do is exploit THE GAME. You'll notice my attitude and posting mannerisms are very different in this thread than any other on this forum. There's a reason for that. we have spies yes, but our spies don't put recordings of TS on the forums (i consider this a vialation(spelling) of privacy) Don't be a great man just be a man
Hudsonn Minmatar FireTech Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.08 16:14:00 - [69] Originally by: Klaryssa I fail to see how singing Village People on TS made your entire fleet engage and die? My statement still stands tho: No gang Ive been in has gotten a single kill from anything that could be attributed to a spy. To my knowledge, nor have any other BOB gangs. The sad thing is, even though we were respected friends once, I am starting to see a 'Counter-strike' mentality appear... theres no longer things such as a good fight; if you get killed the other guy must be cheating somehow. The truth is we ARE good; blowing things up is what we do. We've had a lot of practice, regardless of what any propaganda says. Please take this post (and thread) in the spirit it was intended. We still have a lot of respect for ASCN... There is no way Imperium or the like would recieve a thread like this. <3 Awwwww, why not?
Devoras2 Amarr Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 16:19:00 - [70] Originally by: Klaryssa Originally by: Devoras2 Originally by: Klaryssa Originally by: Devoras2 Respect to the topic starter for the advice and tips. Still its fairly useless when we have spies revealing every single move we execute. Dev I have yet to be in a gang where we got a kill because of a spy. Every single one has come from good Scanning, Cov Ops work, and great decisions by an FC. I think you guys are letting paranoia take over. Although, I can understand its the only excuse remaining... ;) cough Originally by: Cyleth Village People 1 - 0 ASCN end of For those in BoB who knew what that was, it was surely funny for you guys. For those that dont know, it was a BoB spy using the login name "Village People", and started to sing on our TS like a wanna-be idol. It surely confirms that BoB has several spies on our TS. So dont give me that nonsense that EVERY kill and prediction of our movements has come from good scanning, cov ops etc. Our excuse? Our paranoia? Were not excusing ourselves, or resulting to paranoia. Were just pointing out the fact that the almighty BoB cant win their "clean and fair fights", without using teamspeak and forum spies... and offcourse resorting to hate postings on the EVE-O forums. Not much better then AAA/RA tbh. Dev I fail to see how singing Village People on TS made your entire fleet engage and die? My statement still stands tho: No gang Ive been in has gotten a single kill from anything that could be attributed to a spy. To my knowledge, nor have any other BOB gangs. The sad thing is, even though we were respected friends once, I am starting to see a 'Counter-strike' mentality appear... theres no longer things such as a good fight; if you get killed the other guy must be cheating somehow. The truth is we ARE good; blowing things up is what we do. We've had a lot of practice, regardless of what any propaganda says. Please take this post (and thread) in the spirit it was intended. We still have a lot of respect for ASCN... There is no way Imperium or the like would recieve a thread like this. <3 It just never seem to stop, does it. I didnt even mention that you guys singing Village People made our fleet less efficent. It just proves the fact that BoB has to resort to TS/forum spies to get the upper hand in combat. This is very sad indeed. I used to have ALOT, and i mean ALOT of respect for BoB, and what they stood for. Now i can clearly see the true picture of some of them. Im not accusing every BoB member, only those that do resolve to these lame tactics to win. You are free to stand corrected on your statement whenever you like. I for once dont trust it fully. Once the fact has been proven that certain players in BoB are using spies, they have more or less confessed its use, wether you liked it or not. Some of your allied mates has already done it, and they too represent BoB. It only shames your gameplay and your alliance. I agree. BoB are very good, heck supreme PvP`s and im happy to be fighting against you lot. It gives me experince and alot of gameplay fun. And i have accepted this post in the spirit it was intended, and I encouarge my allied mates as well as the EVE commnity to adapt it for their own gameplay. Respectfully Dev And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Endeva Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 17:40:00 - [71] Edited by: Endeva on 08/10/2006 17:41:01 to prevent spies in corp stop recruiting every frikin n00b that put app to ascn. and learn how to use covert ops and scanning becase spies arent the reason we know things, covert ops are. and for faster login ascn members should stop downloading p0rn becase your connection is slower then edit:typo
Phrixus Zephyr Singularity.	Posted - 2006.10.08 18:46:00 - [72] Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 08/10/2006 18:48:48 Originally by: Louisa Torres Up until this war I have actually NEVER had the benefit of a teamspeak, realtime, spy. Not true. You had several on the SA server and in the CODA gang in 9cg. Edit: Saying that with all the alliance's and really poor security on TS and no use of the command channel, i doubt it was very hard. Still undermined the operation. Whether this is kosher, i suppose is up to the player. Then again, according to Red logging on entrie fleet's is fine.
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 18:49:00 - [73] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Originally by: Louisa Torres Up until this war I have actually NEVER had the benefit of a teamspeak, realtime, spy. Not true. You had several on the SA server and in the CODA gang in 9cg. Not when I was leading we didn't, Phrixus.
Alistair Theisman Caldari No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.08 18:50:00 - [74] First of all would like to thank OP for a well thought out and informed post. Love the lack of flames throughout most of this as well. I do not really see BoB doing the whole loggoffski think, which is a welcome relief from other forces we have fought, but I must agree that the TS thing is really annoying. I can say that I never remember facing TS spies at all while in Huzzah, vs FIX and numerous other alliances, yet in almost every major BoB fight, they seem to be an issue. I do not believe BoB needs them to win any of their fights, nor do they give all the info, cov ops and scanners do marvelous at that. But the fact is that those TS spies DO exist. While we really cannot seem to quickly and reliably stop them from interfering in our voice communications, I would like to see some fights without them. It just would make the battles that much more fun. (Though I am sure the TS spies do get quite a kick from it) Will rejoin you on the battlefield when I can.
Sir JoJo Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 19:04:00 - [75] Originally by: Alistair Theisman First of all would like to thank OP for a well thought out and informed post. Love the lack of flames throughout most of this as well. I do not really see BoB doing the whole loggoffski think, which is a welcome relief from other forces we have fought, but I must agree that the TS thing is really annoying. I can say that I never remember facing TS spies at all while in Huzzah, vs FIX and numerous other alliances, yet in almost every major BoB fight, they seem to be an issue. I do not believe BoB needs them to win any of their fights, nor do they give all the info, cov ops and scanners do marvelous at that. But the fact is that those TS spies DO exist. While we really cannot seem to quickly and reliably stop them from interfering in our voice communications, I would like to see some fights without them. It just would make the battles that much more fun. (Though I am sure the TS spies do get quite a kick from it) Will rejoin you on the battlefield when I can. really right up to and during the fight those spys are of no use... ive been in gangs (not a bob gang) where ppl relyaed info directly from enemy ts to our ts it was a cluster ***, ts spys are most used for fleet movements and so, i am certain that our Covert ops pilots are far better for our winning then any spy on ts and i would anyday pick our covert ops pilots over a ts spy if i was forced to pick snip* Don't be nasty [email protected] to discuss mod - Cathath i am not nasty
Kryztal Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 19:09:00 - [76] Originally by: Alistair Theisman First of all would like to thank OP for a well thought out and informed post. Love the lack of flames throughout most of this as well. I do not really see BoB doing the whole loggoffski think, which is a welcome relief from other forces we have fought, but I must agree that the TS thing is really annoying. I can say that I never remember facing TS spies at all while in Huzzah, vs FIX and numerous other alliances, yet in almost every major BoB fight, they seem to be an issue. I do not believe BoB needs them to win any of their fights, nor do they give all the info, cov ops and scanners do marvelous at that. But the fact is that those TS spies DO exist. While we really cannot seem to quickly and reliably stop them from interfering in our voice communications, I would like to see some fights without them. It just would make the battles that much more fun. (Though I am sure the TS spies do get quite a kick from it) Will rejoin you on the battlefield when I can. You do realize that ASCN have spied on our TS as well right? and our forums. So playing the innocent here is getting a bit tired. Someone was feeding your guys with intel from our TS so i would suggest that this omg spies on our TS whaawawawa crying stops. Its never been a big sekrit how we play the alliance warefare and you guys as our former allies both know that and never had an issue with it until it happened to you. Adaptation is the key to success. BobÖ Goon Swatter - Eliminates Every Goon
Alistair Theisman Caldari No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.08 19:27:00 - [77] Um...I am in AXE not ASCN, and do not remember us ever using TS spies in any engagements with you...course I am just a grunt so as was posted above, probably dont have the clearance levels to know about them . Again, not trying to play the innocent, just mentioned that I would have more fun if they were not used.
James Britanicus Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 19:30:00 - [78] Edited by: James Britanicus on 08/10/2006 19:33:56 I did say in that thread that got mysteriously deleted instead of locked that your spy, the one who made the recording, did negatively effect our game play. He told us that we could log in because the gate was clear. Some people began to log in and then the cov ops pilots says NO the gate is not clear, don't log in. Thats when the FC orders a control Q to discontinue the mass, login from the node crash, that was precipitated by your spy. That was the context the control q was used, not while we were warping to a gate or anything else. You know this is true yet you spout your crap continually. It was ordered to stop people from logging in at the gate which at that point was heavily camped by BoB. That use of TS spies is lame. No normal person could dispute that. Yes the game mechanics allow for spies. But TS is not a part of CCP and therefore cannot be cited as a game mechanic. You twist everything that is said into lies and inuendo. Please we all want to play the game. **************************************************************** He thinks he is Uber, if you don't believe me, just ask him :)
Nira Li Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 19:35:00 - [79] Edited by: Nira Li on 08/10/2006 19:35:47 Originally by: James Britanicus But TS is not a part of CCP and therefore cannot be cited as a game mechanic. Well tbh if that how you see it we shouldn't be allowed to use TS at all... I'm gonna put this simple to everyone, we have no sympathy for fools. Cya on the field. You Will Cry My Name
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 19:36:00 - [80] Edited by: Louisa Torres on 08/10/2006 19:36:34 removed, I'm sure the post in question will be returned soon.
Lord Draco Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 19:38:00 - [81] Edited by: Lord Draco on 08/10/2006 19:38:28 I did say in that thread that got mysteriously deleted instead of locked that your spy, the one who made the recording, did negatively effect our game play. He told us that we could log in because the gate was clear. Some people began to log in and then the cov ops pilots says NO the gate is not clear, don't log in. Thats when the FC orders a control Q to discontinue the mass, login from the node crash, that was precipitated by your spy. That was the context the control q was used, not while we were warping to a gate or anything else. You know this is true yet you spout your crap continually. It was ordered to stop people from logging in at the gate which at that point was heavily camped by BoB. That use of TS spies is lame. No normal person could dispute that. Yes the game mechanics allow for spies. But TS is not a part of CCP and therefore cannot be cited as a game mechanic. You twist everything that is said into lies and inuendo. Please we all want to play the game. Aren;t you the guy who before the war called us BOB-lite? Thought so Atleast you have another excuse to hang your hat on, yea?
Laboratus Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.08 20:08:00 - [82] Originally by: Louisa Torres Over the last few days we've had various accusations thrown at us on how we hax logins, cause node crashes on purpose and various other, for want of a better word, excuses as to why we're coming out on top. There are a number of reasons for this, in order they are: 1 - Discipline 2 - Experience 3 - Luck I've previously posted all of the data that will be concerned in this post in various threads and in the different sub-forums so don't worry, I'm not actually giving away any secrets. 1 - Discipline We do as we're told. It's as simple as that. We follow our fleet commands without question, sometimes it gets us killed, most of the time that discipline wins us battles in the most immense of odds. We don't spam teamspeak, we don't harass people in gang, we keep quiet, we use the comms channels available to us to find out the answers we need to be an effective cog in what becomes a smooth running machine. 2 - Experience Not only does experience of combat give us the discipline that is so important, it also means we know what to expect in any given situation AND how to customise our client to get the best possible performance. I personally remove ALL colours and tags on my overview. I also have different overview settings for different shiptypes and roles. If I'm in a battleship and we're in a large fleet fight the only shiptype I show is that of a battleship. The only column I show is NAME. I don't have range showing, at all, it's a needless client calculation that you simply don't need and people who also then show velocity or transversal (etc) need their head checking and will get absolutely no sympathy from me when their client lags in a big fleet op. We ensure our turrets and effects are turned off and our view is zoomed out to the max until the enemy fleet warps in, or when we jump through a gate, we have our overviews minimised until the enemy fleet is visible. I personally play in windowed mode, you should be able to work out which graphics settings are optimal for your client and you can also assign more memory to your client in the prefs.ini file in \ccp\eve\settings. I've also found that removing the z buffer helps aswell. Experience also teaches me that when I'm logging back in after a ctd, or after a node crash, I will close the crashed client, reload another instance (contrary to some claims I (and we) do NOT sit with another instance already open in anticipation of a crash), login, select my character and WAIT for entering game. We don't sit their whining about it, we don't keep rebooting the client, we just SIT. It may take 10s, it may take 10mins, we_just_sit_there - we'll load eventually. 3 - Luck I would say this is pretty self explanatory, but everyone needs it some time. Maybe the two CRITICAL points above mean we make our own luck, but who can really say? I fully approve of this post. Disclaimer: This is my opinion, I am not representing anything or anyone in this matter. Xcept mysefl. Mind control and tin hats
XoPhyte Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 20:48:00 - [83] Originally by: Louisa Torres *Stuff Thanks for the info Louisa, it is useful information. I hope CCP is close to finding a solution to these node crashes and grid lag issues so we could actually have a decent fight so we could worry about tactial positioning and primaries rather then "if we warp to the gate will the node crash?, and if so then those that log on will be instanly killed", or "if we jump through the gate will the node crash?, because again if it does those that log back in will be instantly killed". It is sad that a our whole tactical planning is overriden by thoughts about the lack of stability in this game. I, and I have to believe the rest of the eve community, would rather these issues be address first and foremost above Kali releases and how many people can CCP cram on to a single shard tbh But again, thx for the info Louissa. Don't want to derail the thread.
Alistair Theisman Caldari No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.08 21:09:00 - [84] Edited by: Alistair Theisman on 08/10/2006 21:10:02 Originally by: XoPhyte I hope CCP is close to finding a solution to these node crashes and grid lag issues so we could actually have a decent fight so we could worry about tactial positioning and primaries rather then "if we warp to the gate will the node crash?, and if so then those that log on will be instanly killed", or "if we jump through the gate will the node crash?, because again if it does those that log back in will be instantly killed". It is sad that a our whole tactical planning is overriden by thoughts about the lack of stability in this game. I, and I have to believe the rest of the eve community, would rather these issues be address first and foremost above Kali releases and how many people can CCP cram on to a single shard tbh But again, thx for the info Louissa. Don't want to derail the thread. /signed
Endeva Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 21:15:00 - [85] we all play on the SAme server. and guys there is no spy on your TS becasze with your performace you showing to me i wonder if you have a TS?
BlackMoon Thrawn Minmatar the Organ Grinder and Company Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 21:35:00 - [86] To the O.P. as far as the setup of client goes we do those things(or have been told to, I make no claims as to what others do) The experience you have us on, no doubt about it. Mind you we have many very experienced fleet pilots, but not to the extent of BOB. We are learning more everyday an I for one am enjoying the fair few lower lag fights we have had. As for the luck it has been on your side so far but I attribute alot less of your victorys to luck than some of my allaince mates. The spying I detest and want nothing to do with it myself. There is little doubt it goes on and all the ascn people posting here should know that bob admits to it and move on. To be honest most of what people attribute to spying can be explained by cov-ops work(and it doesnt even need to be a good cov-ops pilot like im sure you have). To ccp, Fix our game please. I know both sides would love nothing more than putting our big'uns up agianst thier big'uns and having a devestating 300 man(and woman) feet fight. The only real complaint I have aobut these fights except for the lag is the imature "smack" that goes on in local and the forums. Clear that and the lag up and I hope this battle lasts months on a scale not seen in the history of eve.
analev godder The Syndicate Inc Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 21:36:00 - [87] nice post. The thing that bothers me most in alliance warfare at this point is that the luck factor has increased drastically. Where before gatecamps were a near certitude to be able to hold of a force today they are not. The state of the servers at this point make it rather the opposite. If you camp and you're unlucky the node crashed half the people of the slowest loggers have to remain unlogged, while the other half dies in a turkeyshoot. And for some reason the camping side seems to be the slowest logger in most cases. For me this takes away a lot of the enjoyment i have from this game if not all. When you consider this as the top reason why people get frustrated, it comes as no surprise that smacktalk, slander etc ensues.
Riley Craven Caldari Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 21:40:00 - [88] Originally by: James Britanicus Edited by: James Britanicus on 08/10/2006 19:33:56 I did say in that thread that got mysteriously deleted instead of locked that your spy, the one who made the recording, did negatively effect our game play. He told us that we could log in because the gate was clear. Some people began to log in and then the cov ops pilots says NO the gate is not clear, don't log in. Thats when the FC orders a control Q to discontinue the mass, login from the node crash, that was precipitated by your spy. That was the context the control q was used, not while we were warping to a gate or anything else. You know this is true yet you spout your crap continually. It was ordered to stop people from logging in at the gate which at that point was heavily camped by BoB. That use of TS spies is lame. No normal person could dispute that. Yes the game mechanics allow for spies. But TS is not a part of CCP and therefore cannot be cited as a game mechanic. You twist everything that is said into lies and inuendo. Please we all want to play the game. I would like to open with a quote... all is fair in love and war... With that out of the way I would like to add my viewpoint from a semi-netrual standpoint. When I first started looking to join an allaince I did not immediately want to join BoB because my opinion was not very high of them because of all the information I got from second hand sources. I interviewed with a number of alliances including Iron and the former G allaince. I knew well in advance that I wanted to join an industrail corp because I like to build. Baring my opinions Bob seemed like the best choice and I have not regretted it since. Now to the real point of this post... I have spent alot of time over my past year in employment with Bob reading the threads in this particular forum. I find it striking that so many people accuse Bob of spouting lies/propoganda/delusions. It seems like there has been drama whever Bob goes. I can remember the Goon campaign being particularly nasty. I had the privilage to read the Bob forums and see the truely angry and outraged people in our allaince first hand at how the Goons had behaved and conducted themselves. Yet it seemed that everyone failed to see the real cause and justification for that war and instead people accused Bob of using a dead player for political gain when in fact that couldnt have been further from the truth. Now it appears that same problem is cropping up here again. But the facts in this war thus far can not be disputed. ASCN are losing and are losing badly. With that being said I know for fact that we have spies in ASCN, I know for fact that ASCN has spies in Bob. I know for fact that every major allainces has spies from every other major allaince. This is part of the game despite your opinion that spies are lame. Whats funny to me is how people are able to so easily take things out of context. In rl every country has spies in others. Its the way the world works and citizens can only guess as to how many conflicts are avoided on a daily basis because of their use. The use of spies is not a question of honor or any other emotion. The use of spies in game and out has always been a question of survivability. Its a fact that any normal person could dispute your claim that using spies is lame Out of all the accusations made by people over the years of Bob and the use of propaganda, I have yet to see Bob actaully eat its words while I have continually seen not only your allaince, but many others eat theirs. Bob has keep its word through out every engagment I have seen. They fight to have fun and enjoy this game. I think that perhaps by you taking this issue so seriously and holding it so close to your heart that you take this game too seriously and should evaluate your continued play. At the end of the day Bob does what Bob wants, can your allaince and your play time say the same?
Zrevak Ashek The Blackwater Brigade	Posted - 2006.10.08 21:52:00 - [89] Well. What TS spying is good for first and foremost, is to demoralise ure opponent. I think this was an aspect of BOB that was introduced with DICE joining them. Imagine the fun this ts spy is having, and u'll know that this isnt something BOB will stop doing any time soon. I have also been infiltrating corps that we've planned on going to war with. I've been doing the spying part(never against Huzzah though)and sometimes the experience is just hilarious. At times we've been literally rolling on floor loughing in RL while following our enemies gangchat or corpchat during our wars. Its especially fun the first 24 hrs before an empire war dec goes active. BOB(more specifically DICE) just takes it to the next level...ergo u have TS spying. But most of the time, its just for entertainment value. So when Vivox arrive, and voicecom becomes an integral part of the EVE UI, voicecom spying will become alot more expected. But sure, I hate being on the recieving end
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 22:22:00 - [90] Originally by: Zrevak Ashek So when Vivox arrive, and voicecom becomes an integral part of the EVE UI, voicecom spying will become alot more expected. My understanding of ViVox will be that it operates under the same permissions as in-game chat channels. So you can restrict to gangs / corps / alliances - this will require you to actually BE in the gang / corp / alliance. It will make it harder (this is a good thing) and simplify security for those that are perhaps ignorant of basic security measures. But you're right, I've found listening to hostile teamspeaks quite amusing, the entertainment factor has been alot more evident than the strategic.
Nailus Species 5618 Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 22:36:00 - [91] I've read an immense amount of trash and slating and flames going from side to side and I don't care much for any of it. I just wanted to say fair play to Louisa for giving some tips and an outlook on some of the ways you maximise client performance to battle the "slowdowns" in laggy fleet battles. I'm sure you've a few tricks that you may keep to yourself but tbh I'm sure they're all part of the game and. Even the logging in over a client stuff is still no big deal because you're not exactly doing anything the rest of us can't its just you guys know more in's and out's so if that's the case and it helps you win so be it. I'm not gonna complain. You can't give out to people who've just been playing the game longer because they know a few tricks of the trade. It's not bloody chess where we have to stay within the 64 squares. The only thing I hate is being too lagged to even put up a fight or fire a shot. That's what grinds MY gears :) To be frank I think ASCN should count themselves lucky to fight a group of experienced players because it's probably the best way imaginable to learn PvP and If there was a brainstorm previously in ASCN as to HOW to train up our pilots for PVP then Invading BOB space would be the best idea anyone could throw onto the table. If we'd sat idle we'd have learnt nothing. War brings change and experience to people who otherwise would sit idly doing nothing. Yes we may lose but we'll have learnt a lot in the process. Losing/Failure is the narrowing down of possibilities to success and every time i lose a ship it's another lesson learnt and not a failure in that I've gained that bit more experience towards not losing the ship or the battle next time around. And finally if we do win it would be that much sweeter being up against tougher odds. On that I say cheers for the overview tips I've one or two little things to go and try out thanks to your suggestions Louisa :) and good luck and thanks to BOB for giving us a really tough and good challenge! Nailus
Ashen Brarn Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 22:38:00 - [92] Originally by: Sunghi Tsu <ASCN Alt> I said, ASCN dont want to use spies, and im sure will kick members for using such dishonourable tactics Originally by: Devoras2<ASCN> It just proves the fact that BoB has to resort to TS/forum spies to get the upper hand in combat. This is very sad indeed. I used to have ALOT, and i mean ALOT of respect for BoB, and what they stood for. Now i can clearly see the true picture of some of them. Im not accusing every BoB member, only those that do resolve to these lame tactics to win. Originally by: James Britanicus<ASCN> That use of TS spies is lame. No normal person could dispute that. Originally by: killerco<ASCN> we have spies yes, but our spies don't put recordings of TS on the forums (i consider this a vialation(spelling) of privacy) Spies are a lot less damaging when you know/assume they're there. Adapt and move on ---
Riley Craven Caldari Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 22:44:00 - [93] Originally by: Nailus Losing/Failure is the narrowing down of possibilities to success and every time i lose a ship it's another lesson learnt and not a failure in that I've gained that bit more experience towards not losing the ship or the battle next time around. Frankly if more pilots in this game from every corner of Eve had this perspective this game would be alot better. My personal motto: "You can't fail if you don't give up".
Gunship Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.08 23:24:00 - [94] translate into: bob dont like to sit in there own corner at the fanfest, someone please drink there beer Sorry, could not resist, we love you really So you want to join us?
Lord Draco Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 23:57:00 - [95] Edited by: Lord Draco on 08/10/2006 23:57:50 Originally by: Zrevak Ashek Well. What TS spying is good for first and foremost, is to demoralise ure opponent. I think this was an aspect of BOB that was introduced with DICE joining them. I dunno if I agree with that, but we did bring the 'stabs. But, when we had the F-E ts piped into ours (atuk at the time) that was one of the funniest things I've seen.
Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.10.09 00:04:00 - [96] Much respect to the OP for the post. I picked up a tip or two and I've been around the block a few times. As to TS spies, we've used em and they provide a lot of entertainment but generally little in the way of tangiable value.
Crucifier The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.09 00:20:00 - [97] Edited by: Crucifier on 09/10/2006 00:20:54 Originally by: Blacklight Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: Riddari Your list lacked a little something. 4. Spies Spies, though certainly useful, are not essential to winning, Riddari. We generally operate under the assumption that there ARE spies everywhere, that way we aren't surprised if it's actually true. However, Louisa Torres is going to be booted from BoB for giving away our sekrits and will be agent hunted from now until eternity for lying about the fact that it is actually Dev accounts and h4xsploits that give us an advantage. ... or not.... Hope you learn a little from this post some of our enemies because we'd like a nice fight on a gate one of these days when the node comes back up again. Fighting at gates doesn't get you anything, why do it? If it lowers your enemies moral to only fight at your pos's and loose
Rebellion Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.09 13:46:00 - [98] Message to ASCN/AXE: If your fleet commanders are starting to tell you that you are losing big engagements because of spies, take it with a grain of salt because they are just using that as an excuse for poor coordination, planning, strategy and tactics. Sorry. Besides, a spy issue can be resolved in a day or two by: 1. Changing passwords 2. Communicating personally with people you trust about the correct password to use 3. Making sure you give different groups different passwords 4. Find out which password was compromised, and focus on the discipline of that group 5. Take disciplinary action as necessary ASCN, you are a big and successful alliance. I won't accept that you lose battles just because an alliance that has enough organization skills to coordinate the efforts of so many people do not have an idea of how to exterminate pests in TS. Asking us to "play honorably, no spies!" just because you are lazy to play seriously enough to solve a simple problem is disheartening. We play against you seriously, the least you could do is reciprocate.
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.09 18:47:00 - [99] Edited by: Rikeka on 09/10/2006 18:51:46 Edited by: Rikeka on 09/10/2006 18:48:53 Legally, depending where you are (and this has nothing to do with ¿virtual ownership¿, so whoever tried to throw that out on a ¿right to privacy¿ matter, should really go back to law school. I really hope no one paid for that ¿legal advise¿ either...), you can defend the case, not by stating the breach of the TS ¿provoked this amount of virtual money loss¿, but by stating that you`ve never gave your permission for your private matters/conversations to go public... Of course, you would need to know for certain the alias the ¿spy¿ used, and later clear it with CCP, and blablablabla. Said that, professionally, I would never get close to either side of the fence. You guys don`t believe me? Why you think the cops need an order to tap someone`s phone? Duh! (hope I don`t have to explain it) But I bet there are enough morons in my line of work that would love to waste your time for some small cash (remember, we charge YOU) Back to RP... TS spies are bad, mkay? I really thought they were a myth, though. Maybe this will make the TS guys experts on our side more cautious in the future. PS: Sorry for the vent... I hate it when people play with the practice of the Law. Hope NO ONE EVER BRINGS THE LAW EVER AGAIN TO EVE (unless its the Amarr Imperial Court or some other RP cool EVE thingie) Good luck to BoB in the war (not really) :) [EDIT] Though about it, and I`m doing the same stupid thing by mixing RL issues with a game. As a disclaimer I will say that--- ¿I had to write something!¿ CCP is free to edit my post to whatever extent is needed to end this issue.
Orree Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.09 23:11:00 - [100] Edited by: Orree on 09/10/2006 23:11:44 Thanks for the OP, Louisa. I have always done most of what you detailed in there, but I did pick up a couple of tips (getting rid of some of the overview columns like transversal, for instance). I'd agree with you on your three points. I believe most of why BoB is successful is discipline and experience. Within the entities with which I have been affiliated, we usally have a small core of experienced, disciplined people and then a majority of people who are (in varying degrees) less so. This mix makes for mixed results, of course...heheh. If I envy BoB anything, it's these two factors. Some day...
Ab Initio Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.10 03:28:00 - [101] Originally by: Orree Edited by: Orree on 09/10/2006 23:11:44 Thanks for the OP, Louisa. I have always done most of what you detailed in there, but I did pick up a couple of tips (getting rid of some of the overview columns like transversal, for instance). I'd agree with you on your three points. I believe most of why BoB is successful is discipline and experience. Within the entities with which I have been affiliated, we usally have a small core of experienced, disciplined people and then a majority of people who are (in varying degrees) less so. This mix makes for mixed results, of course...heheh. If I envy BoB anything, it's these two factors. Some day... Something I've seen (and in all honesty been guilty of once or twice) in previous alliances has been the segmenting of experienced and new players. The experienced guys don't want be involved in fights showing a large kill ratio, and the new guys end up with no one to lead or teach them. I'm obviously not in a place to comment on ASCN in this regard, however I can state that we often see small groups of ships in system (who are clearly more experienced and disciplined) working independently of the ships in the main fleet. I would suggest the main fleet look to some of those pvpers for leadership.
Snakester Caldari Solar Storm Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.10 11:31:00 - [102] Originally by: Lord Draco Hello heya drako, u still have over 5 acct's?, i remember u bragging about your spying ability back in 2003, when i was in your 1st corp in the CA. how's Smith btw, havent seen u 2 yet on the battlefield to shoot at you .
elbenito Battlestars Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.10 22:22:00 - [103] Originally by: Klaryssa There is no way Imperium or the like would recieve a thread like this. I'm glad the feelings are mutual. Who exactly is 'or the like'?
Joram McRory Caldari eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.11 11:49:00 - [104] Originally by: Rebellion Asking us to "play honorably, no spies!" just because you are lazy to play seriously enough to solve a simple problem is disheartening. We play against you seriously, the least you could do is reciprocate. I think you het the heart of it here. Where you say "play seriously" i just don't agree. I used to play a lot of Cricket, and took it seriously. Sometimes I took a catch and the ball jumped out of my hand for a second, sometimes I was chasing a boundry and the ball crossed the line, and twice I fine edged a ball and it was caught. In all of these the Umpries missed it and I could have got away with it. But for me that isn't the point and I would tell the umpire what had happened. In modern day cricket batsmen are much less liley to walk (Give them selves out when they edge the ball, but the umpire can't be sure of it) than they used to be. The drive to win at all costs has entered the game. And I for one mourn the old ways. In EvE it is the same - if I was FC and I had access to the hostile TS I would make the gang member shut it down. If my gang logged on first after a node death I would order a cease fire till everyone was back in game. I am not trying to make out I am some sort of moral hero here, it's just the way I like to play games. It is not being "lazy" it is about being happy with yourself. It is only a game, not life and death, so why compromise your personal ethics. So i don't accuse BoB (or anyone else) of haxploits or cheating, but that does not make me less sad that people play the game the way some of you sometimes do. Joram http://www.pbase.com/calis
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:01:00 - [105] Does removing the velocity and transversal velocity columns really make that much difference? (not that I'm likely to be involved in large fleet battles, i'm just curious) I just remember how fleet battles used to be about a year and a half back 70 vs. 70, all the trappings on without too many troubles... ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Kanae Minmatar Vogon Deconstruction Fleet Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.11 21:18:00 - [106] turn this and this off... relog... dont jump into people unless you all relog first... etc etc All ways to avoid the ****ty end of the stick on server performance sad thing is that this determins many battles. spies (easy way to get booted from our alliance) many use them personally I think its cheap and cowardly. rest of the "tactics" are really debaitable but RKK/etc have always traveled in packs and your going to have a rough time of it with them in fleet battles just to get an even playing field (but thats the server's fault not thiers) Kanae
Plim Gallente Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.12 01:54:00 - [107] If BoB were omgwtfhaxing/sploiting/cheating/humping bunnies in the eye/whatever, denying it carries no information, as that is exactly what someone would do if they were cheating. Infact it seems counterproductive to keep going on about it, because it makes you look like you have something to hide. You may as well not indulge in discussion of it if you are truely an innocent party. Unless of course you are accused of something specific which you can disprove. Recent accusations against BoB are too general to do that. You cannot prove that there are no GM's in BoB or helping BoB, so why even bother? It just becomes a school yard argument, of accusation and denial. I'm not accusing BoB of anything however, I just think that denying it seems like a waste of time. Unlike some people I would only make such accusations publicly if it was absolutely unambiguous, otherwise I would be proverbially kicking myself in the face. Personally I have seen some pretty odd things in the game on occasion, but nothing in anyway consistant or specific enough to draw conclusions from. ----------------- Victory or death! ... knitting is also an option.
Ab Initio Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:15:00 - [108] Originally by: Plim If BoB were omgwtfhaxing/sploiting/cheating/humping bunnies in the eye/whatever, denying it carries no information, as that is exactly what someone would do if they were cheating. Infact it seems counterproductive to keep going on about it, because it makes you look like you have something to hide. You may as well not indulge in discussion of it if you are truely an innocent party. Unless of course you are accused of something specific which you can disprove. Recent accusations against BoB are too general to do that. You cannot prove that there are no GM's in BoB or helping BoB, so why even bother? It just becomes a school yard argument, of accusation and denial. I'm not accusing BoB of anything however, I just think that denying it seems like a waste of time. Unlike some people I would only make such accusations publicly if it was absolutely unambiguous, otherwise I would be proverbially kicking myself in the face. Personally I have seen some pretty odd things in the game on occasion, but nothing in anyway consistant or specific enough to draw conclusions from. For the most part you are probably right. However it is a lot easier to say that you're not going to respond, before you start seeing the kind of baseless allegations being made at the moment. We don't mind being hated for blowing up your ship. We don't mind being hated because we openly engage in counter-intelligence. We do mind if we are hated because everyone thinks we are cheating or exploiting. It's a lot easier to say you wont respond, when there arent thousands of people out there brainwashed into thinking you're hacking and crashing nodes to win fights.
IntegralHellsing	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:48:00 - [109] 1. Spying is part of game. Live with it. Go to a military and say spying is bad. you will get beaten for it. Unless CCP states that spying is against the rules, nothing is there to stop spies gathering info to benefit their favourites. 2. Yeah they log on faster. Yeah we THINK they cheat. so what? Unless CCP states otherwise, they are free to use one of the functions of EVE-Online. Nothing wrong with that. Of course, it really matters if CCP tells them to stop using it and they don't stop. 3. BoB has better experience. We ASCN however... may have some individuals with extensive experiences, but not as a whole alliance. I joined ASCN about 5 weeks ago. don't know why. just followed some people i know into ASCN. and i sometimes regret it. still, the war broke out while i am a member, so i would just keep fighting until we lose everything or stated otherwise by the management. Still i joined ASCN. But what i saw were too much ***ing about. 'oh they hax0rz, oh they logoffski, oh they smacktalk' etc etc. why do they complain? because they just can't face the fact that the others are better than ASCN. or simply because they got kicked in the a very hard. 1. hax: we don't know they hax. it just looks like it and CCP approves the method. so please be quiet about that. 2. logoffski: nothing wrong. game mechanism. i am sure lots of you log off when you know you are going to get killed, and log back on later. or simply to trap people. I have done it and i am not saying i am proud or ashamed of it, but it is very effective. but then why do you keep your buddylist for? it's there to see if massive log off, log on occurs. if you see massive enemy logging on, it's a trap so just warp out. 3. smacktalk: some people just want to show off how good they are to other people. or some people smack to get enemy angry and fall into trap. either way nothing wrong with it. if you don't like it, ignore it. Ignorance is a bliss, you know? However i don't think bob works just by discipline, experience and luck. but whatever it is, ASCN lacks and that is why ASCN is receiving high casualties. (let it be experience or discipline or maybe bad luck. a loss is a loss is a loss.) ps. propaganda by attacking your opponent is not effectice unless you have a solid ground to support. so please don't bother with unidentified facts. if any of ascn members have time to write in forum *****ing about bob method, i suggest you log on and practice more fleep battles. ps2. scanning and finding enemy is very easy once you get used to it. it just takes a n00b to think that he/she is haxing or using spies. hell, i was scanning for 1 hour just to get 1 kill!
Yazoul Samaiel Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.12 03:37:00 - [110] Well again some one shows common sense here , i agree with integral in most of her points. Sping will never ever win u the fight or the war , it is a tool just like using coverts to find hostiel ships etc , we use them like every other alliance in the game does , so why do we have to be any different and all the tinfoil accusatiosn start? Node crashes , lag , and elvis seen walking on Tpar moons is just a load of rubbish . D2 and TCF for example enaged several tiems and had exactly the same stuff !! i dotn recall D2 or TCF saying "omg D2 has node crahsing T2 guns or every time we engage them they crash the node or they login faster than us" and even if some weak minded ppl said it it would just be a LOL . EVE in its current state CAN NOT SERVICE a 200 VS 200 or even a 100 VS 100 lag free battle, Face it ppl !! Doubtfull? Watch battle vids on doceumentaries , recent one i recall was Ec3 conflict by RAT , one of the scenecs the tempest didnt shoot for ** for like 5 minutes and if he would have been targeted he would have gone pop b4 he knew what hit him !!! Still no one accused each other of the trash we see here . TBH when u start putting all the blame on game mechanics and extrenal entites just to justify your failure rather than investigating your own personal defects then that just shows how lame you are imo. "There is no such thing as innocence , only different degrees of guilt"**
Grooter The Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.04 18:13:00 - [111] From a PVP Noob Carebear I would like to thank the OP for the tips & comments made, and for opening this thread. It is the first I have read on or about the war between us that hasn't saddened me or made me wonder why I play EVE, and seems to have been preserved in the spirit of the respect which both sides have always claimed to have for each other (the tips were great too). I would like to thank BoB for every engagement since the war started. I have to admit, I am one of those that honestly believed that I could live in 0.0 and avoid war & combat indefinitely... or at least till I had trained Exhumers V (cough carebear cough). I have found this war to be an extremely rude awakening... but a vital one, and one which may have eventually saved my EVE gameplaying experience. Without ever entering this side of EVE, I believe I would have eventually become bored & moved on. I have been forced to participate in an entire aspect of the game I had avoided. I have to admit, I have grown to love it. PvP is sooo cool. I now 'get' you guys, and why you are aligned & grouped as you are; more power to ya. Thanks for bringing the fight to us, I think you can tell by our early performance just how much our huge miner/manufacturer/carebear contingent have needed a schooling in Alliance warfare (aside from our uber PvPers who were extremely proficient- I am talking some rank & file). I don't blame our leadership for this; they have always harped on about how we needed to get this & that skilled up. I know that I had trained all that stuff to a bare minimum to tick the '0.0 Alliance' box, and gone back to skilling up Hemo Processing eleventyseven. I now have some 1 1/2 million more SPs in gunnery alone & am knocking on T2 fleet BS... if we stay at war for a couple of months longer, my alt will field a carrier (please don't go anywhere till I can sick some fighters on you ). I guess I kinda see this thread as a ray of hope. We are the two most powerful alliances in the game. Perhaps this war will end one of us, but I enjoy fighting you guys. I don't believe in the Hax gods, or the Lag gods, and I am determined to break you hearts in Paragon Soul, but not in a personal way. It's a game, and I would rather play against you guys than some tin pot assortment of clowns who would teach us nothing. Keep it coming BoB. I see you as excellent PvPers, and it is a painful and rewarding process learning combat from you. Perhaps after the war you can come down from Empire and I'll teach you Hemo Processing, jk.
Farham Gallente AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.04 18:22:00 - [112] Personally I think CCP should put in an auto-rule for a node that is coming back up from a crash...No Combat for 10 minutes. It would give both sides in a huge fleet battle time to regather and actually have the fight the intended way, not one side or the other farming people recovering from an out of game mechanics problem. They could use the POS code that prevents targeting anyone or anything and just make it node wide for 10 minutes. You could call it anti-aggression code. I really hate when a battle gets decided by things that have zero to do with tactics, game choices or experience and just who gets to log in first.
Dracorimus Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.04 21:24:00 - [113] As said earlier, when a node drops in mid fight or whatever, we have to sit through the same crap as everyone else, especially the character selection screen which has become a pet hate of mine during the past weeks We just try and get back in game asap as I'm sure others do... o/ - Ferocious FeAr > bob are****got pussies Admiral Goberius > taking advantages of bugs again? /me applauds
Drusus Rensus Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2006.11.04 22:25:00 - [114] Um.. Meta-Gaming is baed, m'kay? How is it that everyone can agree that logoffski and log-in attacks are lame, but nobody seems to be able to see that bringing 200 to a fight when you know f-n well that the server can't handle a 200 v 200 fight is every bit as much meta-gaming as the other two tactics? So you've mastered the art of logging back in and dealing with all but unplayable lag? Whoop! What does that have to do with Eve? You're playing the server, instead of playing the game. It's the same with gaining access to private forums and TS. If you're doing it in character, well, cool, chicanery IN THE GAME is fair play. If you're lying personally, out of character, to gain access to out of game resources, it's no different from doing the same to steal someone's isk, or ships, or whatever else. Try to justify it all you want, but it's just plain lame, and shows a lack of personal (out of game) character. As someone relatively new to the game, I read about this stuff going on and it just makes me shake my head. As things stand right now, I have absolutely no desire or inclination to be in a fleet battle at all. Sounds like it sucks, and it sounds like nobody can turn loose of their e-peen long enough to arrive at some reasonable solution to make it not suck. These are the people that folks look up to in the game? Bleh. If you know f-n well that the server can't handle a 200 v 200 fight, try to impersonate an adult for about 5 minutes and negotiate with your opponents to limit fleet sizes to something the server can handle with reasonably decent game-play for all until CCP figures out how to handle engagements that big. Game? Remember? Fun? I hope by the time I get to the point in the game that these things are issues for me personally that CCP has it sorted a little better, or maybe that some semblence of maturity has begun to prevail by then. If not, hey, Darkfall is looking pretty good. Drusus out.
Xianthar Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.04 22:50:00 - [115] good post, i've never seen bob do anything i would define as an exploit, i don't know what all the *****ing has been about. -xian
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.11.04 23:02:00 - [116] Originally by: Drusus Rensus If you know f-n well that the server can't handle a 200 v 200 fight, try to impersonate an adult for about 5 minutes and negotiate with your opponents to limit fleet sizes to something the server can handle with reasonably decent game-play for all until CCP figures out how to handle engagements that big. Game? Remember? Fun? That was a pretty angry post there Drusus ... but it so happens that you are absolutely right about the futility of alliances playing the numbers game.. at least IMO. You should drop by the following thread State of Warfare in EVE... a possible solution. and have a read .. I think you will find it very interesting. It kind of highlights some of the problems the alliance's have with such a train of thought... Incidently ... we may find that when Kali arrives, the new gang mechanics may forcefully break up the blobs into smaller fighting units. As was stated in the thread I linked, if we the players can't keep our fleets capped, CCP will do it for us.
00tricky Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.04 23:46:00 - [117] Edited by: 00tricky on 04/11/2006 23:56:58 Originally by: Drusus Rensus It's the same with gaining access to private forums and TS. If you're doing it in character, well, cool, chicanery IN THE GAME is fair play. If you're lying personally, out of character, to gain access to out of game resources, it's no different from doing the same to steal someone's isk, or ships, or whatever else. Try to justify it all you want, but it's just plain lame, and shows a lack of personal (out of game) character. I don't think anyone, from any alliance has tried to justify themselves... they don't need to. It's been an acceptable form of espionage since release. Few people like to talk about it... it doesn't mean that the organization they belong to doesn't utilize it. Originally by: Drusus Rensus As someone relatively new to the game, I read about this stuff going on and it just makes me shake my head. As things stand right now, I have absolutely no desire or inclination to be in a fleet battle at all. Sounds like it sucks, and it sounds like nobody can turn loose of their e-peen long enough to arrive at some reasonable solution to make it not suck. These are the people that folks look up to in the game? Bleh. Suit yourself. Reasonable solutions have been offered from both sides, I sorry you were not consulted. Originally by: Drusus Rensus If you know f-n well that the server can't handle a 200 v 200 fight, try to impersonate an adult for about 5 minutes and negotiate with your opponents to limit fleet sizes to something the server can handle with reasonably decent game-play for all until CCP figures out how to handle engagements that big. Game? Remember? Fun? There are individuals/corps/alliances that negotiate gang size before engagements, BoB vs TOXIN/CELES comes to mind. Whether FC's from both sides of this (BoB vs ASCN) have talked about possible limited gang size for more fun, I don't know. Tbh, it wouldn't make sense to do so for ASCN. Their strong suit is their numbers, not their overall experience. If ASCN have only 200 people camping a gate (with drones out, and fighters deployed), and we have 100, are they going to likely agree to reduce their numbers to reduce lag? Is BoB supposed to reduce our gang size... to make it fair for the servers? Are we supposed to not engage because they have taken all the space on the node? Riiiight... Originally by: Drusus Rensus I hope by the time I get to the point in the game that these things are issues for me personally that CCP has it sorted a little better, or maybe that some semblence of maturity has begun to prevail by then. If not, hey, Darkfall is looking pretty good. Me too, there are some serious problems with the game hardware atm. All entities in EVE are making the best of the situation atm. Oh, PotBS has my eye... or may be back to Quake for this kid edit: spelling is my strong suit... no really
Sirius A Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.05 01:31:00 - [118] Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: Riddari Your list lacked a little something. 4. Spies Spies, though certainly useful, are not essential to winning, Riddari. We generally operate under the assumption that there ARE spies everywhere, that way we aren't surprised if it's actually true. There are spies everywhere
Drusus Rensus Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2006.11.05 01:42:00 - [119] Quote: There are individuals/corps/alliances that negotiate gang size before engagements, BoB vs TOXIN/CELES comes to mind. Whether FC's from both sides of this (BoB vs ASCN) have talked about possible limited gang size for more fun, I don't know. Tbh, it wouldn't make sense to do so for ASCN. Their strong suit is their numbers, not their overall experience. If ASCN have only 200 people camping a gate (with drones out, and fighters deployed), and we have 100, are they going to likely agree to reduce their numbers to reduce lag? Is BoB supposed to reduce our gang size... to make it fair for the servers? Are we supposed to not engage because they have taken all the space on the node? Riiiight... Yeah, after thinking about it a little more I can see your point. Trying to limit it to N vs. N is probably too simplistic a solution since some factions are going to see numbers as their strength, and when there are more than bragging rights at stake it's pretty tough to convince folks not to play to whatever they figure their strength to be. Well, fortunately for me I guess, I have still have the option of just not going down that road. Frankly it looks to me like the fun to be had in the game is just setting up in some little backwater system and engaging in small running battles with the local pirates. The servers just aren't ready for the kind of large scale wars that you, ASCN et. al. are trying to wage. About the only option would be a general border freeze and truce until the servers are ready, but I guess some folks would find even less fun in that than node crashes and unplayable lag.
slip66 Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.05 01:50:00 - [120] Originally by: m0jo Quote: 1 - Discipline 2 - Experience 3 - Luck I disagree with the third one. Ive never experienced luck when in a BoB fleet cuz we always ownerized everything. Yeah most of the time you make your own luck. Well in our case our FC and Scouts make our luck! btw you suck for leaving ;) Originally by: StOrM ViPeR Theres a skill called surgical strike in game I've learned that it actually stands for Band of Brothers
Audrea Momentum.	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:02:00 - [121] Originally by: Nez Perces Originally by: Drusus Rensus If you know f-n well that the server can't handle a 200 v 200 fight, try to impersonate an adult for about 5 minutes and negotiate with your opponents to limit fleet sizes to something the server can handle with reasonably decent game-play for all until CCP figures out how to handle engagements that big. Game? Remember? Fun? That was a pretty angry post there Drusus ... but it so happens that you are absolutely right about the futility of alliances playing the numbers game.. at least IMO. You should drop by the following thread State of Warfare in EVE... a possible solution. and have a read .. I think you will find it very interesting. It kind of highlights some of the problems the alliance's have with such a train of thought... Incidently ... we may find that when Kali arrives, the new gang mechanics may forcefully break up the blobs into smaller fighting units. As was stated in the thread I linked, if we the players can't keep our fleets capped, CCP will do it for us. I didnt read that thread you linked to, but why do you think the crappy gang capping idea is gonna help in any way? lol, for starters, all those who can fly Command Ships, already can train the next skill within 2 days up to 40 gang members. So, now all it will do is cause one guy do more instas copying for each gang leader for gang warps, and extra covert ops for each gang as well. Its just dumb. ASCN for example I am sure not gonna give up on their numbers advantage just cause ccp wants Other than that, it would be possible to switch the covert gangs: first gang warps to covert, then covert accepts gang invite from second gang, second one warps, after 30 secs it accepts the third gang. No much of a loose there, 30 secs is nothing in the lag fest hehe ------------------ Save Tranquility!
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:16:00 - [122] Originally by: Audrea I didnt read that thread you linked to, but why do you think the crappy gang capping idea is gonna help in any way? lol, for starters, all those who can fly Command Ships, already can train the next skill within 2 days up to 40 gang members. So, now all it will do is cause one guy do more instas copying for each gang leader for gang warps, and extra covert ops for each gang as well. Its just dumb. ASCN for example I am sure not gonna give up on their numbers advantage just cause ccp wants well... hopefully the new gang mechanics will make alliance's think twice before putting together a 300 man megafleet that is just gonna crash the node wherever it goes. with the new gang mechanics, the effort involved in having a huge amount of pilots in the same fleet may just prove too much hassle... but I admit I am not completely up to date with what the changes will do precisely.. One can only hope...
Hegemon Rast Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:35:00 - [123] Quote "Legally, depending where you are (and this has nothing to do with ¿virtual ownership¿, so whoever tried to throw that out on a ¿right to privacy¿ matter, should really go back to law school. I really hope no one paid for that ¿legal advise¿ either...), you can defend the case, not by stating the breach of the TS ¿provoked this amount of virtual money loss¿, but by stating that you`ve never gave your permission for your private matters/conversations to go public... Of course, you would need to know for certain the alias the ¿spy¿ used, and later clear it with CCP, and blablablabla. Said that, professionally, I would never get close to either side of the fence." There has to be a reasonable expectation of privacy a ts server with over 1000 people on it is just not going to cut it nor is a forum etc etc. Stop the legal mumbo jumbo crap its embarasing
Audrea Momentum.	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:42:00 - [124] Originally by: Nez Perces well... hopefully the new gang mechanics will make alliance's think twice before putting together a 300 man megafleet that is just gonna crash the node wherever it goes. and why exactly the solution to node crashing of 200vs200 fleet battles is to cap the gangs? Might as well close the servers and go home, instead of dealing with the problems.. they were possible once, so make them possible again ------------------ Save Tranquility!

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