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John Bishop Caldari Murder-Death-Kill Blood Raiders Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.09 12:51:00 - [1] ive been playing for 3 years now. i am one of the chars that can fly just about anything i want to and am lethal with all that i fly. and thats cool. i can use several tech 2 weaposn platforms. i can fly carriers and mother ships and if i wanted i could fly dreads with not to much trouble. with that said. there are players in my corp less than half my charecter age that compete with me and in some cases are better than i am at pvp. in fact i have a freind who at 3 months cold out tank me ferox to ferox. he built his tank as a passivve tank with no help from me or anyone else and it tanks better than my active tank. this tells me that all these people i hear whining about new low sp chars have no chance at competing at the same level as the 3 year old char is rubish. if you cant compete with us its not becuase of the skill point gap. its becuase you cant figure out how to. so stop whining about they haf omgwtpwnzedr more sp than me and start figuring out how to beat us at our own game cuase it is possible. _______________________________________________ sorry for the spelling and gramtic errors,,, im a redneck cowboy what did you expect anyways????
Vireya Broken Saints	Posted - 2006.10.09 12:58:00 - [2] amen to that
The Bookmarkar	Posted - 2006.10.09 13:03:00 - [3] you suck And your corp sucks 12341234 v 1 is all you lot can do.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.09 13:11:00 - [4] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 09/10/2006 13:12:34 Eh never mind. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.09 14:12:00 - [5] When I was 3 months old I agreed with you. Now I am 10 months old I am not so sure - but that's mostly because any skill plan I do with carriers or dreadnaughts at the end of it takes six months :( In a years time I will probably agree again :) Zarch AlDain
xlop Gallente Yes no maybe - i dont know	Posted - 2006.10.09 14:17:00 - [6] if that is the case, sell your 40mil sp player on the fourms for isk fr 10bil isk and buy yourself a 5mil sp player for 1bil isk since they perform nearly the same in pvp you have just made 9bil isk for yourself or your corp! now i have had/have ,ore than 6 players all >40mil SP. and i have/had about 4 players within the 5-10mil SP range i can tell you for a FACT that SP matter, and make a MASSIVE difference! tell me how any noob can fight a sniperthron with t2 ammo, it can hit 225km out, you have no chance, thus ur lower sp makes u WORTHLESS tell me how a low SP player can do as much damage as a t2 kitted throax with t2 ammo? basicly you are one of the high sp players who wants to lie to the noobs, well the truth is always better, even if it hurts them, one way they can catch up though is to buy a char for isk -- Imperial College London FTW --
Mesuno	Posted - 2006.10.09 14:23:00 - [7] Don't fight solo - eve is meant to be a group game. I'd like to see that sniperthron handle a gang of tech I frigates orbiting at close range with warp scramblers, tracking disruptors and blasters. Eve isn't won by skill points, although it can help
Max Teranous Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.09 14:25:00 - [8] Originally by: xlop tell me how any noob can fight a sniperthron with t2 ammo, it can hit 225km out, you have no chance, thus ur lower sp makes u WORTHLESS Funny, when I had less than 10mil SP's I killed a T2 sniper mega myself. Here's a hint - 425mm II don't track enough at 1km to hit a claw SP's allow you to fly a more diverse range of ships, allows yo to squeese that last 3-5% of damage, or allow you to fit that slightly shinier mod on your ship - but by far the biggest factor is the abilities of the pilots involved. Max --------------------
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.09 14:29:00 - [9] Edited by: DeadDuck on 09/10/2006 14:30:21 Edited by: DeadDuck on 09/10/2006 14:29:36 I agree with the TS. It's a question of focusing. Lets take for example the HACS. You will need a lot of SP to fly one of them well. If you focus your trainingg in HACS and train them to level 5 train your gun skills to level 5 and support skils in enginnering, mechanics, electronics and so on you will be a excellent PVP pilot flying a HAC. The 3 years character can on the best chance, be as good as you in HACS. Of course he will fly other things way better then you, but in the ship that you usually use he can not beat you only because he has more SP. So the result is that I only fly in combat about 3 types of ships, and only from one race. I like to think that I'm a good pilot in those specific 3 types of ships. The rest I can not even fly them. Maybe I'm loosing a lot of EVE becase of that ... but it was my choice.
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.09 14:30:00 - [10] Originally by: Max Teranous Originally by: xlop tell me how any noob can fight a sniperthron with t2 ammo, it can hit 225km out, you have no chance, thus ur lower sp makes u WORTHLESS Funny, when I had less than 10mil SP's I killed a T2 sniper mega myself. Here's a hint - 425mm II don't track enough at 1km to hit a claw SP's allow you to fly a more diverse range of ships, allows yo to squeese that last 3-5% of damage, or allow you to fit that slightly shinier mod on your ship - but by far the biggest factor is the abilities of the pilots involved. QFT ... it doesn't matter how many toys you can use ... it only matters if you can make a tool out of the toys. experience > skillpoints ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
Darksaber64x Ecchi co.	Posted - 2006.10.09 14:33:00 - [11] Originally by: xlop if that is the case, sell your 40mil sp player on the fourms for isk fr 10bil isk and buy yourself a 5mil sp player for 1bil isk since they perform nearly the same in pvp you have just made 9bil isk for yourself or your corp! now i have had/have ,ore than 6 players all >40mil SP. and i have/had about 4 players within the 5-10mil SP range i can tell you for a FACT that SP matter, and make a MASSIVE difference! tell me how any noob can fight a sniperthron with t2 ammo, it can hit 225km out, you have no chance, thus ur lower sp makes u WORTHLESS tell me how a low SP player can do as much damage as a t2 kitted throax with t2 ammo? basicly you are one of the high sp players who wants to lie to the noobs, well the truth is always better, even if it hurts them, one way they can catch up though is to buy a char for isk Woah dude, take a chill pill. Why the heck would he sell his character that can fly many things decently? I'm sure he likes his choices... As for difference in non-player skill abilities in this game... lets compare someone with level 4 skills all around to someone with level 5 skills all around. Your "MASSIVE DIFFERENCE" is 4% all around effectiveness (I know skills give 5%, but when comparing level 4 effectiveness to level 5 it's a 4% diff). 4%? Woopie. Named mods give better dps and such than 4%. 4% can easily be offset by the all powerful "fitting screen" and planning ahead. What you speak may look like words (however grammatically incorrect) but it's really just a bunch of garbage, or someone that dosn't want to put in an effort to win.
Amiable	Posted - 2006.10.09 14:53:00 - [12] I think it would be more accurate to say that once you reach a certain SP total, then skill>sp. You still need to get to 4-5 in the core competencies and in your particular ship type to be truly effective. I think the break point is usually around 5-10 mill sp, usually thats enough to max out the abilities of 1-2 ships. Before then you really aren't going to do well solo, but you can still be an asset to a group. I would argue the difference between a 10mil sp and 2 mil sp character is a whole lot greater than a 40 mil sp charater and 15 mil sp character. It still takes a decent amount of patience to train up the core skills to be a good pvper, especially if you go the learning skill route.
DrAtomic Polytope Ghosts of Retribution	Posted - 2006.10.09 14:59:00 - [13] Originally by: DeadDuck /snip ... /snap It's a question of focusing. /snip ... /snap Maybe I'm loosing a lot of EVE becase of that ... but it was my choice. Seriously that's what bothers me personally, I want to be able to play all areas of the game and have a specialized route on each of them... We're talking 5 years that way... 5 years before you can test most of the content, not because of the enormous amount of content by due to the restrictive nature of the Skill system and it with Kali 1 it will only get worse. 16.5 years to be a specialist at everything (using +5 implants and maxed learning skills all the way), that's without the new skills which are being put in patch after patch. On average a player stays for 7 months Oveur says... It just doesn't add up, you create a game for it to be played and yet you put a leveling mechanism in place that shuts most of the player base out from using it. Getting ISK has been made 10 times easier, maybe it's time to simply double the amount of SP everyone gets and add in an extra bonus for new players (say starting at 4 times the SP gain and equalizing it at 10 mil SP with the normal 2x modifier (i.e. an curved advantage that gradually builds off)). The extra bonus for new players is there to actually equalize the rate at which they gain SP compared to older players plus it allows them to explore multiple professions in EvE and actually at least touch most of the content. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:08:00 - [14] You're not supposed to be a specialist at everything m8. I agree with John, but I guess I've made that clear before. And tbw, Hi John, long time no see. What are you up to these days ? And what exactly is the Blood Raider Alliance ? Sounds like people I could well be running across in Delve except that I haven't Old blog
Tharrn Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:12:00 - [15] Originally by: Zarch AlDain When I was 3 months old I agreed with you. Now I am 10 months old I am not so sure - but that's mostly because any skill plan I do with carriers or dreadnaughts at the end of it takes six months :( In a years time I will probably agree again :) My character is 3 years old and it would still take me over 100 days to fly capital ships :P Not everyone went for BS specialist ;) Now recruiting!
Lazy8s	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:14:00 - [16] Originally by: DrAtomic Originally by: DeadDuck /snip ... /snap It's a question of focusing. /snip ... /snap Maybe I'm loosing a lot of EVE becase of that ... but it was my choice. Seriously that's what bothers me personally, I want to be able to play all areas of the game and have a specialized route on each of them... We're talking 5 years that way... 5 years before you can test most of the content, not because of the enormous amount of content by due to the restrictive nature of the Skill system and it with Kali 1 it will only get worse. 16.5 years to be a specialist at everything (using +5 implants and maxed learning skills all the way), that's without the new skills which are being put in patch after patch. On average a player stays for 7 months Oveur says... It just doesn't add up, you create a game for it to be played and yet you put a leveling mechanism in place that shuts most of the player base out from using it. Getting ISK has been made 10 times easier, maybe it's time to simply double the amount of SP everyone gets and add in an extra bonus for new players (say starting at 4 times the SP gain and equalizing it at 10 mil SP with the normal 2x modifier (i.e. an curved advantage that gradually builds off)). The extra bonus for new players is there to actually equalize the rate at which they gain SP compared to older players plus it allows them to explore multiple professions in EvE and actually at least touch most of the content. At the risk of getting flammed I have to agree with you somewhat on this. As a newer player myself I can tell you it is no wonder most people quit after 7 months. Most people in eve train: frig, cruiser, bc, bs then they finish off their learning skills while deciding what next. Then they have to do the fitting skills to get everything fit right. About then they are on month 3 or 4 and they haven't gotten any new toys because the last 2 months have been fitting and learning skills. So they decide to usually go inty or AF because of the shorter trains. Another month or so and they have a sweet inty. The prob is they can only do a few things with it. At this point 5 or so months into the game their train times are now getting 10days-30 days for the "important" ones i.e. ship to 5 or T2 guns. They start to see that in 5 months they have trained relatively little and it will be a long time (2-3 more months) before they can hop into a HAC or recon ship or get T2 guns on a BS with good enough skills to be competative in PvP. At this point the ask themselves "Do I want to spend almost as long as I have been playing before I can do some real PvP? Do I want to be stuck in frig wolfpacks for another few months? Do I want to keep grinding missions in highsec to make isk?" About 50% of the people I started with decided no and can you blame them? How much fun would it be to spend almost a whole year restricted to frig wolf packs to get any PvP? Where is the light at the end of the tunnel? Sure they'll now have a HAC or BS but they know they won't have all the skills they need to really 1v1 it. Personally I enjoy eve enough to stick it out but I do have to say I see why people quit. They spend 2-3/7mo training learning and fitting skills and the rest is enough time to get up to BS for missions and intys for some PvP. I dunno how you would fix this to balance it but you have to admit it would be no fun getting owned for over half a year by T2 ships while you're just getting enough skills to be able to put fittings on your ship.
Rick Dentill Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:16:00 - [17] I am inclined to agree, I have a friend with 1/3 of my sps who took on t2 fitted tier 3 cruiser (forget which) and a lachesis, she had a named fitted aribitrator and support from a 1 month old fellow in caracal. 2 kills no losses. I would have run screaming from the fight without a bs or t2 cruiser of my own. I find EVE is as much about confidence and brains as it is about the various bonuses skills give you. The numbers are meaningless unless you use them properly. _______ http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/page.php?id=dd
Eve Hel	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:16:00 - [18] hehe hilarious... sounds to me like when the rich ppl saying: ohh well money is not everything ! hehe offcause money is not everything but it's darn close ! offcause 40m+ sp doesn't make you a God but you will have it much easier than the dude with 10m. if he beats you in a ferox fight it's either because he has better skills in that pertickeler area or that he just outsmarted you,, offcause a 10m can outsmart a 40m dude. however the 40m dude will have a better basic chance (before the smart/tactcis comes) btw money is not everything i have so much money hey it's nothing speciel............. yaaaaaarrrrr right
Yaay Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:18:00 - [19] Originally by: xlop if that is the case, sell your 40mil sp player on the fourms for isk fr 10bil isk and buy yourself a 5mil sp player for 1bil isk since they perform nearly the same in pvp you have just made 9bil isk for yourself or your corp! now i have had/have ,ore than 6 players all >40mil SP. and i have/had about 4 players within the 5-10mil SP range i can tell you for a FACT that SP matter, and make a MASSIVE difference! tell me how any noob can fight a sniperthron with t2 ammo, it can hit 225km out, you have no chance, thus ur lower sp makes u WORTHLESS tell me how a low SP player can do as much damage as a t2 kitted throax with t2 ammo? basicly you are one of the high sp players who wants to lie to the noobs, well the truth is always better, even if it hurts them, one way they can catch up though is to buy a char for isk simple, don't fight him at his strengths. Get under his range and blast the hell outta him...
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:21:00 - [20] Edited by: Scorpyn on 09/10/2006 15:21:40 I have more than 40M sp and I still don't consider myself to be close to maxed out in the skills that I use frequently, so I can understand the new players that think it takes a while. You need a lot less than that to be competitive though - someone with 5M sp could easily beat me in the right circumstances, for example (actually 1 week of training has been proven to be enough to beat me, although that was stabber vs kestrel (me in kestrel)).
Baleorg Gallente Guys of Sarcasm	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:26:00 - [21] Originally by: The Bookmarkar SNIP Be nice please - Huitzilopochtli Tlaloc ([email protected] aww. can you PLEASE stop using that FVKCING red? it hurts my eyes and its barely readable :-/ --- BTW: A GOOD Cache-Cleaner
Ellandrian D'Amerathe	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:26:00 - [22] Quote: tell me how any noob can fight a sniperthron with t2 ammo, it can hit 225km out, you have no chance, thus ur lower sp makes u WORTHLESS Tell me how an experienced solo player can fight this without an equally specialized setup? Tell me what this guy will do when I take a couple low SP (say 2 mil) characters in T1 frigs and cruisers up against him, using a Cov ops to setup a warpin point? His specialized setup will not hit the T1 frig with an MWD scrambling him just outside of web range well, if at all, and a sniping setup usually does not have much of a tank, T1 Tackler and a pair of T1 cruisers (say Blasteraxes) and this guy is toast to 3 people who probabily total less than half his SPs... combined... Rock... Meet Paper... Paper... Meet Scissors... Scissors... Meet Rock. SPs matter but not as much as people want to make out. There is no one in the game with Gunnery 6, 5 is as high as any skill goes, which opens avenues for specialization within ship classes that level the game very quickly. I have 14 mil SPs, my CEO has around 25-28 mil (not sure), I have no fear of him at all in equal ship classes, his main advantage is experience (he just knows more than me) skill with a wider variety of fittings and ships. AF vs AF (my preferred ship class), his additional 14 mil or so skillpoints really do not mean much, our skills in those ships are approximately equal.
Ellandrian D'Amerathe	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:31:00 - [23] Quote: QFT ... it doesn't matter how many toys you can use ... it only matters if you can make a tool out of the toys. This quote... wins the thread.
Rick Dentill Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:32:00 - [24] Originally by: Ellandrian D'Amerathe I have 14 mil SPs, my CEO has around 25-28 mil (not sure), I have no fear of him at all in equal ship classes, his main advantage is experience (he just knows more than me) skill with a wider variety of fittings and ships. AF vs AF (my preferred ship class), his additional 14 mil or so skillpoints really do not mean much, our skills in those ships are approximately equal. Q4T I have 20million skill points. In a dominix duel I would fare very well since I could bring to bear something like 8 - 10million sps into the mix. In an apoc duel which I can also fly, I can bring perhaps 4 million sps most being electronics, engineering and mechanic. _______ http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/page.php?id=dd
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:37:00 - [25] /signed. The fact is this isn't WoW, or EverQuest, or whatever. Its not a "I can gain 1000exp a day, and so can you. Since I started first, I'll always be ahead and you'll never catch up" type of scenario. It is quite true to say that a real, true, absolute noob isn't going to be beating any 3 year old players in 1v1s, if they're both prepared and specialised. As everyone points out though, this game is all about finding the setup to beat your opponent. A 3 month old player can easily beat a 3 year old player, if he's prepared and well set up and the other guy isn't. And if we talk about 2v1s, or 3v1s, anyone is fair game. And the thing is, there are very real caps to how good you can get in EVE- once you have lvl5 in Railgun Spec, in other Hybrid skills, and have T2 Large guns futted, yyou arn't going to get any better at using them, ina year, or two, or three. So that 3yo player is at his top, while that 1yo player is already practically caught up. All being old means is that they can be specialised in more things, not more specialised at individual things. They can fly every ship in the game, but each and every one they arn't flying an awful lot better than you in your single ship
Tribunal FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:41:00 - [26] T2 long range fleet >>>>>> T1 long ranged fleet. T2 ammo are not "small" improvements over T1, they are massive improvements. "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers
Eve Hel	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:43:00 - [27] lol alot of rich ppl, good for you
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:46:00 - [28] i can passive tank with the best of them at only 4.7mil SP when in my Ferox as i focused my skills on that. however my active tanking skills need some work so that i can really let my raven shine.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.09 15:46:00 - [29] Originally by: Tribunal T2 long range fleet >>>>>> T1 long ranged fleet. T2 ammo are not "small" improvements over T1, they are massive improvements. If you go back to the threads about t2 ammo balance you'll note that the people arguing your point hardest are also the vets that get the largest advantage from it. Some skills and modules etc in Eve do favour the vets because of imbalance or requuirements. However, would things really be much different if there would be no sp hurdle in that regard but instead a price hurdle cause by massive demand ? Vets also have more isk after all. I think that in general things are fine, but that some exceptions exist (both ways). Old blog
DrAtomic Polytope Ghosts of Retribution	Posted - 2006.10.09 16:32:00 - [30] Originally by: Ellandrian D'Amerathe /snip ... /snap ...his additional 14 mil or so skillpoints really do not mean much, our skills in those ships are approximately equal. How's your mining? How's your mission running? How's your manufacturing? How's your researching? How's your trading? How's your salvaging? How's your exploring? Thats not even talking fitting versatility abilities... ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery

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