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KnightCrawler
adeptus gattacus
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:11:00 -
[1]
I spend a lot of my time reading these forums and almost every time I see a new person make a post on these forums asking for help or trying to figure something out that person is trolled, flamed, and mocked.
Every time I see someone trolled and flamed I bite my tongue, scared that if I try and help il be dragged down to but I had enough of it.
My final straw was the post I read yesterday about how a ceo wanted to dispand his corp that was war dec'd, so that his corp wouldnt have to pvp. He was compeletely flamed and trash talked.
You know what, He pays the monthly fee, let him play how he chooses, if he doesnt want to pvp that his damn choice. I actualy think he deserved props for being new and figuring out how to manipulate the game mechanics in his favor without breaking the rules so that he didnt have to pvp after being war dec'd and that the corp that war dec'd him just lost million of isk to fight a corp that doesnt exist.
Not everyone is a eve vet. How would you like if it was your first day in eve and you were all excited and decided to make your first forums post, and then the embaressment of getting trashed by the community.
This forum community has gotten to the point where a large majority of the people are nothing short of abusive.
There is a simple saying: "If you have nothing nice to say, Don't say anything at all".
I know there are a few of us who make an effort to help by posting positive and constructive comments but sadly they are usualy overshadowed by forum trolls.
I have been watching this community get worse and worse since I started eve a few years ago.
Im tired of keeping quiet. If you want to flame me for saying this or put me down with stupid comments so be it. Atleast I had enough courage to speak up and I know I am in the right.
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Kaiu
Hinkledolph and K Associates The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:14:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Biltic Creen
Originally by: KnightCrawler
I actualy think he deserved props for being new and figuring out how to manipulate the game mechanics in his favor without breaking the rules so that he didnt have to pvp after being war dec'd and that the corp that war dec'd him just lost million of isk to fight a corp that doesnt exist.
1. AFAIK leaving a corp to get out of the way of war-decs is classified as an exploit.
I was about to say this... ____________________ MOGarmy
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Biltic Creen
Minmatar Deutsche Minen und Werke
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:14:00 -
[3]
Originally by: KnightCrawler
I actualy think he deserved props for being new and figuring out how to manipulate the game mechanics in his favor without breaking the rules so that he didnt have to pvp after being war dec'd and that the corp that war dec'd him just lost million of isk to fight a corp that doesnt exist.
1. AFAIK leaving a corp to get out of the way of war-decs is classified as an exploit. 2. Who cares about the 2 Millions (or whatever, even if it were 20), ISK is really not the problem in Eve
This post is not my personal opinion. It does represent the standpoint of every single player ! |
Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:16:00 -
[4]
Actually, by the letter of the Eve rules, disbanding a corp to avoid pvp with the intention to keep it together outside of corp mechanics or to reform it under another name is not allowed.
I'd agree that avoidance of the war system liek that is pretty damn lame. On the other hand, the abuse of the same system that often leads to this evasive behaviour is just as lame.
Anyway, I agree that people could be nicer to those asking for help. It's just that most questions here don't seem to end in quetion marks, but take the form of assertions about 'wrong' game mechanics or about other players.
Old blog |
Greyshadow
Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:17:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Biltic Creen ISK is really not the problem in Eve
Wanna give me some then
"Now you see me, now you don't!" |
evistin
Multiverse Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:20:00 -
[6]
Edited by: evistin on 09/10/2006 15:22:35 KnightCrawler,
I honsetly know where you are comming form. I respect the people who work hard to help players out. In General Discussion it can become a flame bait pretty quickly, but like Q & A skills there are a lot of players just helping others.
Its sad about the war thing, but we can't help everyone, but the hardcore pvp players would of course flame care bears.
I turn to help CEO level stuff, something I think no one is doing in the game right now. There are people out there who are helping, just need to find where they are. -----------
Management and Leadership ű The Eve-online Guide |
Dominious
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:23:00 -
[7]
I do notice some of your observations, KnightCrawler. "Can I have your stuff", "Go back to WOW", "STFU Noob", seem to be some of the most common responses in the forums these days. Don't know if it was always like that, since I haven't been playing long myself. I can only hope that it's just a very vocal minority posting on these forums.
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defiler
Caldari Mad Hermit
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:23:00 -
[8]
Edited by: defiler on 09/10/2006 15:26:56
Originally by: KnightCrawler
I actualy think he deserved props for being new and figuring out how to manipulate the game mechanics in his favor without breaking the rules [...]
Couldn't agree more. I see nothing questionable about what he wanted to do, so no reason to flame him. Getting yourself out of trouble is a fine art, getting out of trouble without a fight even more so.
Originally by: KnightCrawler
Im tired of keeping quiet. If you want to flame me for saying this or put me down with stupid comments so be it. Atleast I had enough courage to speak up and I know I am in the right.
No flames from me. I've been lurking these forums for a long time (minding my own business ), but I must admit that I missed his post. Hopefully I would have replied in a non-flame fashion. The guy asked a question. The common practice for readers in this case is to reply to the question, not... erm, question it (unless it's utterly wrong and/or absurd, which it IMHO wasn't). Come on people, help your fellow capsuleers out. Some of the players actually don't have access to a vault of information, be it an alliance, corp or a good web page.
EDIT: The exploit bit occured to me as well... But why should it be an exploit? The way I see it, the object of war in this game is to strike at corporations, not pilots. So, if wardecing someone makes the corp crumble you win, right? I honestly don't see the problem...
Mad Hermit - Minding our own business since 2004. |
Orri Sarikusa
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:25:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Biltic Creen
1. AFAIK leaving a corp to get out of the way of war-decs is classified as an exploit.
Nope incorrect. Rod is correct if you reform under another corp its an exploit but you can disband. After all that is the point of a war in the first place to get them to disband. How stupid would it be if you couldn't leave a corp that was war decced. How would you ever win? *-*-*-* How to avoid a ban.
The Manuel approach - 'I know nothing I'm from Barcelona' |
Pepperami
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:28:00 -
[10]
While I agree in general people should be nicer to those asking for help, the case you pointed out I actually think the guy got what he had coming to him - lame game tactics and even the mods locked the thread because of the trollish and flamebait style of his OP.
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Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar Pragmatics
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: KnightCrawler I have been watching this community get worse and worse since I started eve a few years ago.
I agree with you there. Eventually we'll reach the level of the forums of another popular MMO.
It's not all bad, though. There are still intelligent posts. You just have to do more work to find them these days.
Quote: My final straw was the post I read yesterday about how a ceo wanted to dispand his corp that was war dec'd, so that his corp wouldnt have to pvp. He was compeletely flamed and trash talked.
You know what, He pays the monthly fee, let him play how he chooses, if he doesnt want to pvp that his damn choice.
If it's the thread I'm thinking of, the poster seemed to be of the opinion that the game should allow him to avoid PvP entirely whilst still being in a PC corp. The vets were pointing out (rather robustly) that EvE is a PvP game, and EvE's designers will tell you that it's a PvP game.
Yes, he pays his monthly fee and yes, he can play how he chooses. But the game shouldn't change because he wants it to be a different game.
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Gaven Blands
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:32:00 -
[12]
OP: Stop trying to be a beacon of rationality on a public forum! You know it doesn't make any sense! Just lower yourself to the proper level. Say "noob" a lot instead, it marks you out as a pro. If you want to mark yourself out as "uber", say "nub" instead. It's a shame you're right. I'd be ashamed of this community if I felt I was part of it too.
Sorry, did you want a flame? oh go on then... I'll give it a shot, although I'm not sure I am much good at them, let me know how it feels.... here goes....
"HA HA LOL" you're such a nub! i laff at u in rl lol. i wud pwn u and ur frnd who left dat corp. ha ha, dint we smash ur corp in dat war? YARR! PWNAGE! lol! i'm leik Tech4 cmprd 2 u HAHAHAHA!
Seriously, if you manage to flip a tractored JetCan with your shuttle and you started 34Km away, it's a Macro in the hauler, make no mistake. |
Roshan longshot
Gallente Order of the Arrow
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:40:00 -
[13]
You can disband the corp. You can all leave the corp leaving an alt in charge. You can not leave the corp and come back after the war is over. You can not disband the reform the corp due to war.
(drags out the soap box) Eve is a online pvp game right? By CCP bringing in those stupid agent missions...They also made it a PVE game.
Non PvP players need to see this, it is fully in the rules of the game for me or anyother to gank you at the gates, at the belts, or anywhere I want to, as long as I pay the price for my actions.
That price can be anything from loss of ship, to War dec fee.
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box.
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Ms Freak
Amarr NCN Navy
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:40:00 -
[14]
Originally by: KnightCrawler I spend a lot of my time reading these forums and almost every time I see a new person make a post on these forums asking for help or trying to figure something out that person is trolled, flamed, and mocked.
Every time I see someone trolled and flamed I bite my tongue, scared that if I try and help il be dragged down to but I had enough of it.
My final straw was the post I read yesterday about how a ceo wanted to dispand his corp that was war dec'd, so that his corp wouldnt have to pvp. He was compeletely flamed and trash talked.
You know what, He pays the monthly fee, let him play how he chooses, if he doesnt want to pvp that his damn choice. I actualy think he deserved props for being new and figuring out how to manipulate the game mechanics in his favor without breaking the rules so that he didnt have to pvp after being war dec'd and that the corp that war dec'd him just lost million of isk to fight a corp that doesnt exist.
Not everyone is a eve vet. How would you like if it was your first day in eve and you were all excited and decided to make your first forums post, and then the embaressment of getting trashed by the community.
This forum community has gotten to the point where a large majority of the people are nothing short of abusive.
There is a simple saying: "If you have nothing nice to say, Don't say anything at all".
I know there are a few of us who make an effort to help by posting positive and constructive comments but sadly they are usualy overshadowed by forum trolls.
I have been watching this community get worse and worse since I started eve a few years ago.
Im tired of keeping quiet. If you want to flame me for saying this or put me down with stupid comments so be it. Atleast I had enough courage to speak up and I know I am in the right.
QFT
Originally by: Biltic Creen
Originally by: KnightCrawler
I actualy think he deserved props for being new and figuring out how to manipulate the game mechanics in his favor without breaking the rules so that he didnt have to pvp after being war dec'd and that the corp that war dec'd him just lost million of isk to fight a corp that doesnt exist.
1. AFAIK leaving a corp to get out of the way of war-decs is classified as an exploit. 2. Who cares about the 2 Millions (or whatever, even if it were 20), ISK is really not the problem in Eve
^^ That wasn't the point. The point is that alot of people around here think EvE should be 100% PvP and won't accept anything else.
I agree with the OP, it's complete BS. People can play this how they see fit, even the corp that war dec'd, but flaming someone for being a n00b/Asking a question/Saying something you personaly dont agree with is just plain riduculous and does nothing but prove the poster has the mental age of a lemon.
Kudos @ OP.
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Ambre Blanche
Amarr Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:43:00 -
[15]
This topic is very surprising to me. I don't see why the people in EVE should be better than they are in any other MMO out there, or even in real life for that matter. A lot of idiots play this game, along with some very nice people. You just have to play around the morons, either in the forums or in-game, as you must in other internet games. Never expect the idiot to shut up because he will not, that's his trademark :)
Ambre who got nice answers from nice people on the forums and who got flamed by the imbeciles as everyone else ...
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Ariel Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:44:00 -
[16]
The EVE forums are filled with 'Internet Toughguys' who sit at their computers hitting F5 all day. It doesn't take long before you start recognizing the morons/whiners, so simply scroll past any posts they make, as chances are you aren't missing out on anything that actually adds to the subject. Its harder for new players as EVE's forum squatters seem to all share the view that the only thing to do in EVE is to PvP (Takes a whole lot of 'skill' to press a few buttons and then wait until they explode, doesn't it!) or complain about how empire space is too good.
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gfldex
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:45:00 -
[17]
Originally by: KnightCrawler
My final straw was the post I read yesterday about how a ceo wanted to dispand his corp that was war dec'd, so that his corp wouldnt have to pvp. He was compeletely flamed and trash talked.
I seen this post too and was shakeing my head about this guy. And while I was reading the thread it got closed by a mod with the words:
Originally by: Karass Sayfo I would please ask that the opening post be more civil and less provocative to angry replies.
There is a fine line between asking for advise or starting a discussion and whining. Nearly any poster that gets flamed is whining and/or shows low knowledge or bad understanding of the games and it's most basic principles.
Ppl chose to stick with this game for years because they like the harsh and unforgivingness. They try to protect it and they have any right to do so because it's the one and only game of its kind we have today.
Those players who like easy games have plenty of choices -- we don't.
I'm not a big fan of flameing or low talk in general but if anybody attacks what eve is about and I see a funny way to help him to make himself look like a fool I will do it.
-- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill|lost my ship|gank|gate camp|Verone/;'
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Rick Dentill
Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:47:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dominious I do notice some of your observations, KnightCrawler. "Can I have your stuff", "Go back to WOW", "STFU Noob", seem to be some of the most common responses in the forums these days. Don't know if it was always like that, since I haven't been playing long myself. I can only hope that it's just a very vocal minority posting on these forums.
Don't think that I have ever seen STFU Noob until your post but seriously "can i have your stuff" and "Go back to WoW" or general mentioning of WoW are prevalent and have been as long as I remember. However these two comments in particular are generally used with people who post on the forum. "EVE Sucks I am leaving". Similarly you find situations where someone will complain about something (often some form of non consensual pvp)within game mechanics as though it was snuck in without being mentioned time and again in manuals and guides and elsewhere on the website. People get tired of it and vent there frustrations.
There are two sides to the coin, those who post these comments and those who give them reason two. People post on here without thinking, "will this cause flaming" or simply as in the "EVE sucks" example, want to get in the final word to stroke their own egos.
It does happen occasionally someone is dealt with harshly, but more often than not the community is very mature, with only a few people who spoil it. If you want to avoid being flamed with a post, then think what you are going to write. _______
http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/page.php?id=dd |
Ozzie Asrail
FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:55:00 -
[19]
I dunno, almost every true newbie thread is replyed to respectfully. Theres tons of help given out in the new players forum without even the hint of a flame even to stupid questions.
What does get flamed is intentionally agressive, confrontational or ignorant posts. Sometimes a little slapdown does have to be administered :) -----
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gfldex
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:56:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Biltic Creen
1. AFAIK leaving a corp to get out of the way of war-decs is classified as an exploit.
If Corp A declares war on Corp B and Corp C comes to help B out and pilots drop from corp A you can ask a GM to move them back and bind them to Corp A for some time. But it is not and never was an expoit.
If Corp B disbands it can't be an exploit because you declare war to a Corp and not to a player. If you drive your competitor out of business you won the war. There is no GM needed in such a case.
-- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill|lost my ship|gank|gate camp|Verone/;'
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Gonada
Gallente Cross Roads
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Posted - 2006.10.09 15:58:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Gonada on 09/10/2006 16:00:46 Its harder for new players as EVE's forum squatters seem to all share the view that the only thing to do in EVE is to PvP --------------------------------------
actually this post shows the total ignorance of the ex-wow/eq/ect. types that have been flooding these boards lately, why?
eve is a pvp game in its entirety. from competition to mine minerals, to the market, reasearch, to misson running where you hone your skills, then finally to lowsec, its all competition.
I am sure its not so much as noob bashing, as having to read the same" this is unfair, change it or ill leave !" posts day by day by day.
most of the people that cause such a ruckus are those that have been weaned on lamer carebear experiences, and naturally want eve to be the same, non- violent environment, where everyone is the same, everyone has no advantage over each other, and you can be the best with little difficulty.
well news flash, eve is not that game. cry all you want, it wont change the basic fact that eve does not coddle you, you are on your own, and yes there are people better than you and me out there in the eve universe.
deal with it, you choose your destiny, you have the power. wether you use that power to whine on the boards abvout how unfair it all is, or actually play eve is up to you, but I and others will still bash lame posts by those that somehow feel that a pvp environment game setting is the end of the world.
ps: Takes a whole lot of 'skill' to press a few buttons and then wait until they explode, doesn't it!) or complain about how empire space is too good. -----------------------------
takes skill yes, but as much skill as any other online game takes, shows this poster has no clue.
-I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.09 16:00:00 -
[22]
Originally by: KnightCrawler
Im tired of keeping quiet. If you want to flame me for saying this or put me down with stupid comments so be it. Atleast I had enough courage to speak up and I know I am in the right.
Why are you keeping quiet? :) If you post constructive replies and some other people just post flames, the guy is going to read both. If he has any experience of internet forums he will just ignore the flamers and concentrate on getting an answer to his question. So dont be quiet. Post things and contribute. Silence doesnt help anyone but the flamers.
Im probably not always constructive, but im never abusive. Works for me. :)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Thors Twins
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Posted - 2006.10.09 16:07:00 -
[23]
Knight Crawler, i can only agree in what you are writing. The problem in game like this is that player¦s can hide there rl identity, and be a complete idiot without it having any consequence. If you meet them in rl the majority of those are small minded persons who are getting " a rush" because they have informations other can use, and can make you look like a fool.
TT
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Cheese Baron
Gallente Pound Of Cheese
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Posted - 2006.10.09 16:22:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Roshan longshot You can not leave the corp and come back after the war is over. You can not disband the reform the corp due to war.
Says who? Please linky or stop talking.
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Red Ochre
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Posted - 2006.10.09 16:27:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Rod Blaine Actually, by the letter of the Eve rules, disbanding a corp to avoid pvp with the intention to keep it together outside of corp mechanics or to reform it under another name is not allowed.
I'd agree that avoidance of the war system liek that is pretty damn lame. On the other hand, the abuse of the same system that often leads to this evasive behaviour is just as lame.
Anyway, I agree that people could be nicer to those asking for help. It's just that most questions here don't seem to end in quetion marks, but take the form of assertions about 'wrong' game mechanics or about other players.
by the letter of eve rules? and where is the hard copy of this rod? i havent seen anything other than "its in bad form" about doing this. CCP what say you about this incident? not that its a show stopper by any means.
going through the rules there is nothing about the new corp disbanding to to avoid war decc, by the letter. will ccp do something to fix/modify this type of behaviour IF they do indeed feel its in bad form or an exploit to game mechanics, not someones "i think they should play the game this way mechanics". who knows, the community need not dwell on it until ccp decides to do something.
on a side note your other points are well said rod. its good to see a bob employee post and not whiff of elitism, that is rare. *harmless stab*
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Galk
Gallente Autumn Tactics
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Posted - 2006.10.09 16:28:00 -
[26]
Im in complete agreement with the op.
It's got worse as the years gone on, breaking point for me on this was the whole capital deadspace thing a few weeks ago, a select few of the community showed their true colours in much the manner you describe.
What i do belive though, by the end of that sorry sad episode, some good did become of it.. the moderators it seemed were finaly shoving it back at them and letting it be known personal attacks wouldn't be tollerated. ______
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2006.10.09 16:49:00 -
[27]
It's sad that half the responses in the thread are not discussing the main issues that the OP raised about courtesy and abuse on the forums, but choosing instead to rehash the game mechanics debate.
That alone supports his points quite well I think.
People's obsession with being rules lawyers is a big part of why they are often so rude to one another.
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Rutoo
Gallente Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.10.09 16:50:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Roshan longshot You can not leave the corp and come back after the war is over. You can not disband the reform the corp due to war.
You are sadly mistaken Sir, This has been down time and time again. It is not a exploit because if it was CCP would just make it so you cannot rejoin the same corp for 6 months.
I've left a corp in my early days during time of war to rejoin it, back when i didn't want to PvP.
EVE is not just a PvP game, it's also a PvE. A large part of the player base have never pvped. And they never want to nor have a thrill to PvP, they pay for the game and play it the way they want to.
I'll also state if someone declares war on my alt-corp in empire i would leave it and come back when the war is over, it's MY corp, i paided the 1 million ish to start it and i want to rejoin it.
So again you are mistaken and you need to provide proof for you false claims _________________________________________________________ My First EvE Video Club Seals Not Sandwichs |
ching'sta
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.10.09 16:50:00 -
[29]
Are you all born yesterday? The example is not the point. I agree totaly KnightCrawler
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Roshan longshot
Gallente Order of the Arrow
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Posted - 2006.10.09 16:50:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Cheese Baron
Originally by: Roshan longshot
Originally by: Cheese Baron
Originally by: Roshan longshot You can not leave the corp and come back after the war is over. You can not disband the reform the corp due to war.
Says who? Please linky or stop talking.
Well says CCP from 2003 on. And if you want to see where? The go find it yourself or stop talking.
P.S. Typo...You cannot disband and then reform the corp to avoid war.
But there is nothing saying you cant disband the corp, and set up a NEW corp under diffrent leadership.
/me still sees no linky... Hmm very intersting and quite telling as well... Until someone from CCP says otherwise your personal opinions are as meaningless as banta poodoo.
look who is yapping. like I said...you want to see it? Go look it up your self. And stop trying to get into the 23...the club is full already.
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box.
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