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David Clausewitz
The Spawning Pool
Team Liquid
11
   |
Posted - 2011.12.03 21:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
Khrage wrote:stop asking. get a ceptor pilot to fly with you. the coecer and retri are great for pve and work fine in small hull sized fleets as gank.
Posts like this make me wish there was a dislike button. |
Klown Walk
striving for excellence.
3
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Posted - 2011.12.03 21:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
They can still work with max dps, plenty of people thinks you have a point and don-¦t bother to warp off. |
David Clausewitz
The Spawning Pool
Team Liquid
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 21:17:00 -
[33] - Quote
Klown Walk wrote:They can still work with max dps, plenty of people thinks you have a point and don-¦t bother to warp off.
Minority |
Opertone
Signal 7
29
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 21:24:00 -
[34] - Quote
Yes, of course. One med slot is hard to live with.
In fact this ship has tactical advantage - very strong tank. In a fleet of cruisers a retribution may look odd and draw enemy fire, which will save time. Retribution can be very strong if enemy goes for smallest by mistake. I.e. bait for the unaware.
Coercer, what do you not like? It is not meant to tackle, not meant to tank. Its tracking is abnormal, literally ignites all enemy frigates (all except stealth bombers). If enemy pilot is stupid enough to go under the guns of a destroyer, he goes belly up. Else, destroyers keep enemy tacklers, ceptors and drones away. Nothing to complain about.
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Khrage
0
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Posted - 2011.12.04 00:04:00 -
[35] - Quote
David Clausewitz wrote: Posts like this make me wish there was a dislike button.
from reading your other responses you would dislike everything that gives a reason for not adding the 2nd mid slots.
simply you don't need 2 mid slots for everything. yes solo pvp is very hard without both a point and prop, but the ships are still balanced. they excel in any situation where they don't need the point. especially when it comes to the archetype of amarr of being simple gank and tank, that's what the coercer and retri do best. and in any fleet situation when you aren't tackle and it is your job to do nothing but melt hulls, everyone would trade mid slots for low slots, no matter what the ship. in fact now that i think about it, i wouldn't mind MORE ships to have just one mid slot to pack on more lows. they are dps ships, not tackle ships. that is what they are made for.
and +1 to Opertone
Opertone wrote: Yes, of course. One med slot is hard to live with.
In fact this ship has tactical advantage - very strong tank. In a fleet of cruisers a retribution may look odd and draw enemy fire, which will save time. Retribution can be very strong if enemy goes for smallest by mistake. I.e. bait for the unaware.
Coercer, what do you not like? It is not meant to tackle, not meant to tank. Its tracking is abnormal, literally ignites all enemy frigates (all except stealth bombers). If enemy pilot is stupid enough to go under the guns of a destroyer, he goes belly up. Else, destroyers keep enemy tacklers, ceptors and drones away. Nothing to complain about. |
Garr Earthbender
Quantum Cats Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2011.12.04 00:52:00 -
[36] - Quote
You could almost say that 1 mid slot ships are fun to play with because they have only 1 mid slot. I get that having a point is almost always mandatory. Running in a frig fleet though? Nah. Running in nano fleet where you're just there for close range frig protection? Nah.
Sitting on the warp in of a FW plex with a arty trasher? NAH!!! |
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
61
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 01:22:00 -
[37] - Quote
The retribution more then makes up for its lack of mids with very good dps at very good range and with a good tank. Its got lots of lows, lots of guns, a utility high. People who want to change the ship should just get a different ship imo - the retri and the coer do their jobs as fleet fire support very well.
I frankly don't understand why people want to standardize. If the retri got 2 mids, then it will still not be enough. |
Firestorm Delta
Wiki Industrialists
Wiki Conglomerates
0
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Posted - 2011.12.04 04:19:00 -
[38] - Quote
I can understand the people who want that second mid slot, I can also understand people who say the cormorant should get an extra low. I've flown every destroyer but the thrasher at some point in time, and having just one slot in an area bothers me to no end. But I won't argue with CCP to change it because as said ships are each designed with a purpose. If you can't fit a point and a prop mod then obviously soloing pvp isn't that ships purpose. Not all ships work good solo, if you can make them work solo then good for you, but if you can't then get a group.
Its not uncommon in games that involve space combat of some kind to have ships that are used for the sole purpose of screening larger ships. In fact most games that involve any form of strategy tend to have some kind of unit that does this. What do you know, the destroyer looks to be a perfect match for this.
Also there is one problem with giving the destroyers any more slots, then we start having too many slots to go around, and we end up with either op destroyers, or they all end up looking the same. If the races become cookie cutters of each other then whats the point of having different races?
Well that rant went a bit longer then I planned on. Either way take my words with a grain of salt as you probably know more about pvp then I do. |
Forum Chav
State War Academy
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.12.04 10:14:00 -
[39] - Quote
"...So that was just a combination of ad hominem and straw man and it completely ignored my legitimate concerns that you either failed to comprehend as a valid response to your argument or just refused to acknowledge as legitimate concerns (which they are). ..."
Lmao. You used to work for the Reagan Administration, yeah? |
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
62
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 10:23:00 -
[40] - Quote
Even before the buff, I had tons of fun blowing frigs to pieces in FW fleets with my Coercer. It's not a solo boat, and if you have to solo, make sure you kill stuff before it has a chance to warp off. :P |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.12.04 12:03:00 -
[41] - Quote
IMHO, the coercer is fine with 1 med slot. The cormorant has 1 low and these limitations force the destroyers in specific roles. Moreover, the coercer has enough turrets to kill most nasty frigs before they realise they need to get out.
The assault frigates however, are meant as a more general purpose ship. There isn't an AF with 1 low, instead the harpy and hawk both have the same slot layout, whereas for the other races, the AF's have different slot layouts. The 1 mid of the retribution severly limits the general frig tendency the other AF's have. But this should be looked ad together with the AF 4th bonus/reimagining thing that needs to happen.
TL,DR:
- coercer is fine, dps tackle best tackle
- retri isn't fine, but AF needs to be looked at anyways |
Zyella Stormborn
Vanguard Systems.
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 01:38:00 -
[42] - Quote
IceBergSlim wrote:David Clausewitz wrote:Roderick Tazinas wrote:Solo -> Vengeance.
In fleet you have tacklers.
You need to use the right tool for the right job. Every tool can do the same point/propulsion job except the Coercer and the Retribution. David, what Roderick posted is just about the best - and politest, lol - answer you'll receive in here. Yes, agreed, those ships with one mid slot aren't what you would expect a pvp ship to have. However, what do you think the dev's were thinking when they created those ships? That they were insta-broken? No. They have a role. Just like every ship ingame. You just have to figure out what that role is and how best to utilise your chosen ship. Surely you realised this before training/buying one? I mean absolutely no offence by this, but Roderick has it nailed down. Everything has a role and/or a purpose in EvE. It's just sometimes we don't see it. believe me, I know, lol.
And I may be mistaken, but isnt the Coercer the best of the Destroyers on dps and ehp while staying cap stable? If that is the case, then their role is rather straight forward... pew pew. :) If it is not the case... well *cough* maybe a change could be looked at. |
Lady Spank
GET OUT NASTY FACE
308
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Posted - 2011.12.06 02:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
Have solo killed in a Retribution crew checking in.
(a¦á_a¦â) ~ Get Out, Nasty Face ~ (a¦á_a¦â)
Signature edited. Navigator. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
35
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 17:56:00 -
[44] - Quote
The 1-mid ship.
Designed to sacrifice tackle in favour of doing much higher DPS. Great concept, IMHO.
... The rather large problem with this being that the other assault frigates and destroyers can do as much, if not more DPS and can still mount both mobility and tackle.
To put this about as bluntly as I can: if a ship is going to be a one-trick pony, it should be better at that trick than the others. |
Takeshi Yamato
ALA Biomedical
24
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Posted - 2011.12.06 17:58:00 -
[45] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:Have solo killed in a Retribution crew checking in.
What did you kill? A cruiser without propulsion mod? A noob in a T1 frigate? A drunken ceptor pilot? 
Please tell.
|
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
35
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Posted - 2011.12.06 18:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
Have warped off laughing from a solo Coercer crew checking in. |
Worpout
Unforeseen Consequences.
3
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Posted - 2011.12.06 19:22:00 -
[47] - Quote
Kite no tank it like a boss |
Khrage
0
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Posted - 2011.12.06 19:47:00 -
[48] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:The 1-mid ship.
Designed to sacrifice tackle in favour of doing much higher DPS. Great concept, IMHO.
... The rather large problem with this being that the other assault frigates and destroyers can do as much, if not more DPS and can still mount both mobility and tackle.
To put this about as bluntly as I can: if a ship is going to be a one-trick pony, it should be better at that trick than the others.
+1 |
Grog Drinker
The Tuskers
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 20:11:00 -
[49] - Quote
The bigger problem is the lack of usable laser boats below the BC size in general. For a pilot wanting to fly solo amarr boats you can use a laser punisher but the jump between that and a harbinger is pretty dismal. The only worthwhile step up from a punisher is the crusader or slicer. The retribution and coercer are unusable due to the lack of mids. The omen is worthless because of its power grid and cpu.
The punisher, maller, and prophecy also generally work better with AC's anyway.
Give the retribution and coercer another mid each and we will see many more small laser boats in pvp.
Also if your gonna fly internet spaceships they damn well better be shooting flashy lasers... |
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
6
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Posted - 2011.12.06 20:21:00 -
[50] - Quote
Grog Drinker wrote:The bigger problem is the lack of usable laser boats below the BC size in general. For a pilot wanting to fly solo amarr boats you can use a laser punisher but the jump between that and a harbinger is pretty dismal. The only worthwhile step up from a punisher is the crusader or slicer. The retribution and coercer are unusable due to the lack of mids. The omen is worthless because of its power grid and cpu.
The punisher, maller, and prophecy also generally work better with AC's anyway.
Give the retribution and coercer another mid each and we will see many more small laser boats in pvp.
Also if your gonna fly internet spaceships they damn well better be shooting flashy lasers...
Yes. The Slicer is pricey, and so is the Navy Omen, and those are the only usable sub-BC solo laser boats Amarr gets, unless you count "requires flying on a knife edge" as usable (aka the 'Sader). And don't even get me started about the Zealot...it simply isn't funny what a pack o' frigs can do to that ship. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
36
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 20:26:00 -
[51] - Quote
Yeah that is a depressingly short list.
Quote:it simply isn't funny what a pack o' frigs can do to that ship.
A valid point, or it would be if the Zealot wasn't a gang ship rather than solo (a role in which it is superb)
There's also the Phantasm, but not sure if that really counts... |
carbomb
Super Team Munkey
1
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Posted - 2011.12.06 21:56:00 -
[52] - Quote
I agree that having 1 mid slot is a bit of a hindrance, however, the ships are very usable without that 2nd mid. I love flying the coercer solo. It is great at killing over confident dramiel pilots They brawl into a fight with both feet with the notion that they can just burn away or warp off if things dont go to plan. Unfortunately for them by the time they realise things are turning sour its too late 
Not had too many fights in the retri. Its a good mix of tank/dps tho.
|
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
6
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Posted - 2011.12.06 22:00:00 -
[53] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Yeah that is a depressingly short list. Quote:it simply isn't funny what a pack o' frigs can do to that ship. A valid point, or it would be if the Zealot wasn't a gang ship rather than solo (a role in which it is superb) There's also the Phantasm, but not sure if that really counts...
I agree that the Zealot is a fantastic gang ship. Just don't ever try to fly one solo, or else I'll have to come hunt you down and blow you to bits for it. |
Zyella Stormborn
Vanguard Systems.
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 22:17:00 -
[54] - Quote
Grog Drinker wrote:The bigger problem is the lack of usable laser boats below the BC size in general. For a pilot wanting to fly solo amarr boats you can use a laser punisher but the jump between that and a harbinger is pretty dismal. The only worthwhile step up from a punisher is the crusader or slicer. The retribution and coercer are unusable due to the lack of mids. The omen is worthless because of its power grid and cpu.
The punisher, maller, and prophecy also generally work better with AC's anyway.
Give the retribution and coercer another mid each and we will see many more small laser boats in pvp.
Also if your gonna fly internet spaceships they damn well better be shooting flashy lasers...
+1  |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
13
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Posted - 2011.12.07 08:10:00 -
[55] - Quote
Retri is one of the best L2 Frigats you can get :). Most times faster then any cruiser and much more fun to fly.
If you use the util high for a probe launcher the Retri is great for up to 3/10 deadspace which mostly contain frig size enemys.
Hell, it is even great at 00 belt rating in Providence.
And it does a very good job as sniper(50+km)/DPS(up to 288) platform in gangs. Not both at the same time ;).
PS: and btw. NOT every ship in EVE must be PvP able! Just learn to except, that some are made for PvE ;).
Not? Well, why the hell aren't mining barks able to fit propper tanks and ... see my sig damit!
Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
37
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Posted - 2011.12.07 13:25:00 -
[56] - Quote
Quote:And it does a very good job as sniper(50+km)/DPS(up to 288) platform in gangs. Not both at the same time ;).
Frigate sized sniper is not a role.
Quote:PS: and btw. NOT every ship in EVE must be PvP able! Just learn to except, that some are made for PvE ;).
Correct, some ships are not intended for PVP. These include mining barges and, to some extent, Marauders.
This category does not however include assault frigates, which are PVP ships, and if one underperforms in that role there is a problem.
And by the way, speaking of roles that don't exist: PVE AF is one of them. Mission running AFs are a gimmick, at best, and not even remotely worth using compared to a proper PVE ship.
Oh and by the way, if your sig is serious, you're an idiot.
(Yeah the rest of your post was dumb enough that I honestly can't tell if you actually meant it) |
Aine Morchet
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 13:41:00 -
[57] - Quote
I tried to find videos of Coercer PvP.
Every single one is a Coercer being killed by the filmer. There is not a single PvP vid where a Coercer actually kills something.
'sup 1 med slot. |
Niko Takahashi
United Starbase Systems
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 13:43:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:There is no reason for a pvp ship to ever have only 1 midslot. If you don't have a point, most FC's will laugh you out of their fleet. Yes there are ways around it, but realistically all it does is gimp that ship in comparison to other hulls.
Then I Will laugh at the FC who does that there are several ships who work better as a DPS platform and there are ships that tackle.
to have a point on each ship in a fleet is a waste of Midslot.
30 to 40 % of fleet members should fit points of some kind after that you should have EW of Prop mod.
Situation changes even more if you have Interdictors and Heavy Interdictors then even less normal points is needed
|
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
37
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Posted - 2011.12.07 13:49:00 -
[59] - Quote
Quote:to have a point on each ship in a fleet is a waste of Midslot.
No, to have a frigate without a point is a waste of a ship.
(With the obvious exception of the Griffin/Kitsune)
If you're in a frigate, and you don't have a point, frankly you need a damn good reason - and the Retribution doesn't have one. The DPS it puts out isn't that impressive compared to other AFs. |
Grog Drinker
The Tuskers
9
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Posted - 2011.12.07 14:00:00 -
[60] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:PS: and btw. NOT every ship in EVE must be PvP able! Just learn to except, that some are made for PvE ;).
Not? Well, why the hell aren't mining barks able to fit propper tanks and ... see my sig damit!
Mining barges are industrial ships.... AF's and destroyers are indeed designed for pvp. Name one other AF that isn't regularly seen in PVP... |
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