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CCP Rise confirms Tengu/Caldari Nerf! hahahaha tengu RIP

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Gimme Sake State War Academy Caldari State 7	Posted - 2015.03.01 11:47:58 - [91] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Gimme Sake wrote: Deacon Abox wrote: Yes rl Caldari whiner. CCP hates your rl Caldari race. CCP laughs every time you log on. Look at that fool that flies those Caldari ships. 3 years of Drakes everywhere was someone asleep at the wheel I guess. Anyway, there is an Ishtar nerf in there as well. Can't you just realize that ships that get so much more use than others will be "rebalanced"? The now not so new rebalancing team is doing it's job. This is a good thing. The reason Tengu is being "overused" is because it has the only viable shield tanking T3 subsystem (Suplemental Screening). If Loki had a similar system there would be a much lower percentage of Tengu pilots. There's no any other reason. And you know that teeny tiny fact where medium rails can track fairly well at 20Km, and deal decent do out at 90 something with spike. Let's looks around... Most popular fleet AF: Harpy (74 km spike optimal **** yeah!) Most popular fleet t1 cruiser: Moa (budget Eagle) Most popular fleet t2 non drone cruiser: Eagle (Budget Tengu) Most popular t3 cruiser: Tengu Most popular t2 BC: Vulture. I'm sure this level of popularity has absolutely nothing to do with their weapon system. Loki's problem mainly lie in the fact that their weapon system has a much smaller effective range, and has far lower tracking at closer range, and lower overall DPS. And twice the reload timer of hybrids. You sure can't compare Caldari rails with Gallente rails (and tracking bonuses + drones) at 20km. It is also almost pointless to use those ships with blasters when you look at Gallente close range bonuses ( + drones again). What is left is just the range in a game where the best tank is speed/mobility. Would you pick an Eagle over Deimos for brawling? No, you'll go for a Moa because of the shield doctrine and lack of other shield tank options. Notice the "non drone" in most popular... I had no idea "non drone" is a ship quality. You can pecker to hilarious doom a rail fitted "non drone" with any frigate of your choice that has a point and drones. I doesn't even need weapons in it's high slots so you can very well launch probes while doing so. The "over use" of the ships you have listed is due to the optimal/range bonuses/ slot layout makes them ideal for far away engagements in any common sense shield fleet doctrine. At closer range there are plenty of ships that offer tackling/damage bonuses so each fleet has a wide array of ships to chose from. Also don't forget that all the ships you listed will have shield tanks, which is seldom available (or preferred) for their Minmatar (and sometimes Gallente) counter candidates. The 7% rail nerf isn't going to change anything because there are no other options for ranged combat other than drones and also the Tengu tank nerf isn't going to change much when it is the ONLY option for a decent t3 shield tank that can rival with Proteus and Legion. I other words, a shield fleet doctrine is always going to prefer the ships you listed because it lacks other options. I'm pretty sure an extra medium or low slot on some Minmatar ships and also some rethought bonuses for Loki's defensive system would have been more effective than a nerf bat. In the current situation the Caldari optimal bonuses for rails leaves them the still the only solo option for long range engagement because nobody is going to chose the low tracking/medium slot lacking combo of the Nado when thinking of a decent shield fleet, not even if you buff arty damage by 100%. I conclusion it is a nerf just for the sake of nerfing it doesn't balance anything, it just slowly pushes shield tanking/rail combo further inside its very own niche because it offers not replacement options.
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 615	Posted - 2015.03.01 11:52:27 - [92] - Quote Desimus Maximus wrote: 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage becomes 10% bonus to Light, Medium, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage, 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage All bouncers Optimal Range reduced by approximately 15%, falloff increased by the amount taken away from optimal HAHAHAH RIP ISHTAR HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Yeah, no. These changes will hardly hurt the Ishtar that much. They're not enough, to be honest. Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.03.01 23:15:51 - [93] - Quote Poasting in a secret Ishtar thread: The "nerf" isn't hard enough. Sentries shouldn't be available on a cruiser-sized hull. Fix: Increase the sentries' volume, then up the drone bays of battleships. Bingo-presto - you've done a service to all.
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 1135	Posted - 2015.03.02 01:17:07 - [94] - Quote Gimme Sake wrote: The reason Tengu is being "overused" is because it has the only viable shield tanking T3 subsystem (Suplemental Screening). If Loki had a similar system there would be a much lower percentage of Tengu pilots. There's no any other reason. ~snip~ I never said anything about Caldari vs Gallente Rails. I said that Loki was not used because it has a weapon system that scales poorly and has a very limited effective engagement range as compared to railguns, not because Loki has a poor buffer tank. I wish it were not so, because I for one loved Loki fleets back when NC tried them out for a while a few years back, but the weapon system just doesn't measure up well in comparison with railguns, drones, or even cruise missiles. Significant alpha damage is just not enough to make up for lower DPS, lower range, worse tracking, long reload cycles, long actual cycles, and high PG requirements. And once you scale up to the point where your fleets are alphing each other off the field due to numbers, that higher intial alpha is completely useless in comparison with all the things Artillery loses as a downside. Even if Loki had an EHP above and beyond all the other t3's, it would still be at a massive disadvantage to railgun using ships because rails deal more DPS, at a wider variety of effective ranges, with lower reloads, and lower cycle times. Rails are actually quite good on the two Gallente ships I have interest in flying, the Proteus and the Megathron, but both of them are armor doctrines, while you seem to be hung up on shields.
Cancel Align NOW Greater Order Of Destruction The Good Christian Society 456	Posted - 2015.03.02 02:22:36 - [95] - Quote Just train everything and become nerf proof.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 656	Posted - 2015.03.02 07:24:17 - [96] - Quote Cancel Align NOW wrote: Just train everything and become nerf proof. That's what I did... Ella's Snack bar
Mournful Conciousness Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate 830	Posted - 2015.03.02 16:02:21 - [97] - Quote It's overstating things to call this change a tengu nerf. It's an adjustment that seeks to make self tanking a little more viable (smaller sig and larger buffer) and buffer tanking less abusable. That's all. You'll still have 100mn self-repping, cap-stable, 700dps tengus. Proteus' will still be a great deal more viable for gank dps than (say) deimos or zealot because the buffer will still be enormous. Nothing has really changed. No tears are necessary here. There's not really anything to see. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Logan Revelore Symbiotic Systems 43	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:22:53 - [98] - Quote I am thouroughly puzzled by the medium rails nerfs incoming. I'm an odd duck flying missions in my Vulture (wanted and elite ferox, only option I had), so now I'll probably have to retrain to something else as I'm specialized in medium rails and getting nerfed down to 600dps is cutting lvl4s kinda short..
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 1137	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:31:28 - [99] - Quote Logan Revelore wrote: I am thouroughly puzzled by the medium rails nerfs incoming. I'm an odd duck flying missions in my Vulture (wanted and elite ferox, only option I had), so now I'll probably have to retrain to something else as I'm specialized in medium rails and getting nerfed down to 600dps is cutting lvl4s kinda short.. They used to be laughably bad. And then CCP buffed basically everything about them, and they became basically amazing in comparison to just about any other weapon system with the exception of t2 pulse lasers, and those have very limited large scale application. Sorry, but it was needed, they were bring used on basically every fleet comp in null because of their amazing damage and versatility of ranges.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 10008	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:50:19 - [100] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Logan Revelore wrote: I am thouroughly puzzled by the medium rails nerfs incoming. I'm an odd duck flying missions in my Vulture (wanted and elite ferox, only option I had), so now I'll probably have to retrain to something else as I'm specialized in medium rails and getting nerfed down to 600dps is cutting lvl4s kinda short.. They used to be laughably bad. And then CCP buffed basically everything about them, and they became amazing in comparison to just about any other weapon system with the exception of t2 pulse lasers, and those have very limited large scale application. Sorry, but it was needed, they were being used on basically every fleet comp in null because of their excellent damage and versatility of ranges. Harpy fleets with spike pounding away at targets 75km+ away, with the option of switching to close range ammo and still effectively brawling at 10. Tengu fleets were doing the same at ranges of around 15-100Km, and Moa/Eagle fleets at ranges that long as well. So sorry about the mission nerf side effect, but it was inevitable. P.S: Crosstraining is good. What does medium rails have to do with Harpys?
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 1137	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:56:53 - [101] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: What does medium rails have to do with Harpys? My bad, I was under the impression the RoF nerf was to all sizes of railguns, not just mediums.
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 114	Posted - 2015.03.02 23:09:54 - [102] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: baltec1 wrote: No no. All we do is remove the sentries from it, the rage will be all the more potent if they can still use the heavies. Removing sentries (and possibly heavy drones) from anything smaller than Battlecruisers is probably going to be controversial regardless. I say nerf the Ishtar into a hybrid boat - problem solved. Gallente already has a hybrid HAC. It's called the Deimos. Gallente are supposed to be drone-focused it's only reasonable that one of their HACs follows that philosophy. I just spent the last 3 months training Ishtar related skills...someone tell me what the next fotm ship will be please?
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 1137	Posted - 2015.03.02 23:20:43 - [103] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: I just spent the last 3 months training Ishtar related skills...someone tell me what the next fotm ship will be please? Fear not: It's still Ishtars, their damage and damage application is still enough to dickpunch logi wings with ease, and the defensive nerfs to t3's (their main enemy) hit them harder than the Ishtar nerfs hit Ishtars But I wouldn't be surprised to see highly tanky BS doctrines begin to sprout back up, probably TFI and Rattlesnake, maybe even Ravens, especially if the Sov Blog tomorrow (I hope) ends up pushing more localized sov formats where long distance traveling is reduced.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6334	Posted - 2015.03.02 23:28:08 - [104] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: baltec1 wrote: No no. All we do is remove the sentries from it, the rage will be all the more potent if they can still use the heavies. Removing sentries (and possibly heavy drones) from anything smaller than Battlecruisers is probably going to be controversial regardless. I say nerf the Ishtar into a hybrid boat - problem solved. Gallente already has a hybrid HAC. It's called the Deimos. Gallente are supposed to be drone-focused it's only reasonable that one of their HACs follows that philosophy. I just spent the last 3 months training Ishtar related skills...someone tell me what the next fotm ship will be please? See what happens? The T3 nerf comes right at the time I'm training up for Tengu. I even said it for years that when I finally have the skills for one, it'll get nerfed. I haz drake, and drake gets nerfed. Even tried to undock with the old number of modules in high slot. So join me in being cursed! Go ahead and train up for the Ishtar! Maybe if this happens enough the prophecy will be fulfilled. (and I'm not talking about the ship) BTW, Ishtar PWNMobile lovers, I MIGHT already have the skills for an Ishtar myself. I have skills for ships I have never owned. So when I get online later I'll check. Then I'll let everybody know. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 312	Posted - 2015.03.03 00:27:04 - [105] - Quote Limiting Sentry/Heavies to only BS hulls isn't the issue. It just means you'll move back to Domi Fleets. What needs to happen is Sentries need to be nerfed such that their performance in combat is on par with other BS Weapon Systems. Cause at the moment they for all relevant ways, immune to EWAR, immune to Cap Warfare, they are stationary so they always have perfect tracking, never need to reload, etc. They need to be dialed back. Maybe they need their own EWAR counter? A "tracking disruptor" or something that will affect them as an AOE (Target one, all within X km are affected?) or something.. or just nerf their tracking so they cant hit a frig that isn't moving Straight at it, that will do glancing blows at Cruisers that aren't moving Straight at it.. Anyway, nice thing about 6 week cycles, we don't need to wait 6-12 months to even have a chance at OP Doctrines being nerfhammered.
Gimme Sake State War Academy Caldari State 7	Posted - 2015.03.03 13:06:59 - [106] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: baltec1 wrote: No no. All we do is remove the sentries from it, the rage will be all the more potent if they can still use the heavies. Removing sentries (and possibly heavy drones) from anything smaller than Battlecruisers is probably going to be controversial regardless. I say nerf the Ishtar into a hybrid boat - problem solved. Gallente already has a hybrid HAC. It's called the Deimos. Gallente are supposed to be drone-focused it's only reasonable that one of their HACs follows that philosophy. I just spent the last 3 months training Ishtar related skills...someone tell me what the next fotm ship will be please? See what happens? The T3 nerf comes right at the time I'm training up for Tengu. I even said it for years that when I finally have the skills for one, it'll get nerfed. I haz drake, and drake gets nerfed. Even tried to undock with the old number of modules in high slot. So join me in being cursed! Go ahead and train up for the Ishtar! Maybe if this happens enough the prophecy will be fulfilled. (and I'm not talking about the ship) BTW, Ishtar PWNMobile lovers, I MIGHT already have the skills for an Ishtar myself. I have skills for ships I have never owned. So when I get online later I'll check. Then I'll let everybody know. I suggest you start training for Ishtar and T3 dessies. Do it fast!!!
Deacon Abox Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 469	Posted - 2015.03.03 19:59:57 - [107] - Quote Sniper Smith wrote: What needs to happen is Sentries need to be nerfed such that their performance in combat is on par with other BS Weapon Systems. Cause at the moment they for all relevant ways, immune to EWAR, immune to Cap Warfare, they are stationary so they always have perfect tracking, never need to reload, etc. They are not immune to ewar. It's just that you have to lock and throw an ewar module on each one. And at 5 of them to every 1 enemy ship that becomes a pita (unless it's a Guristas ship in which case good riddance to that op **). Oh you mean they can still be shooting you even if you ecm the host ship? Well that only makes sense. Missile launchers have fof to shoot if damped or jammed. Likewise drones are semi-autonomous in order to get over ecm and damping of their host ships. Turret ships are just ** if they get jammed, which is stupid. So if you extend ewar on a host ship to it's drones then that is a rather unwelcome buff to ECM. Because you will have just removed one third of the half assed counters (ECCM, FoF, drones on aggressive) to the all too often repeating twenty seconds of might as well jerk off since I can no longer play the game. Additionally, if launchers and turrets were destructible and you had a pretty limited supply of replacements you could equip, then by all means yeah let's extend ewar effects to a ship's drones. But by that point why even bother having different weapon systems? And instead just make one generic "dps weapon" for all ships. Sniper Smith wrote: They need to be dialed back. Maybe they need their own EWAR counter? A "tracking disruptor" or something that will affect them as an AOE (Target one, all within X km are affected?) or something.. or just nerf their tracking so they cant hit a frig that isn't moving Straight at it, that will do glancing blows at Cruisers that aren't moving Straight at it.. Actually, something like this is the best solution. But it shouldn't be TDs. Because they are already slated to get some anti-missile effect(s). In other Ishtar whine threads I've suggested buffing painters and painting ships, by giving a painter a secondary drone effect(s). The obvious one would be getting painted reduces drone control range. In game theory being a painted ship has it's communications with it's drones interfered with by the painting effect. It would also fit the backstory now that Amarr sport more drone ships. Just as adding an anti-missile effect (missile range or some hit to explosion radius or speed) is slated to be added to TDs either by scripts or sister modules. Such would also make backstory sense now that Minmatar fly some missile boats. Sniper Smith wrote:** Anyway, nice thing about 6 week cycles, we don't need to wait 6-12 months to even have a chance at OP Doctrines being nerfhammered. Indeed. The present balancing team is an order of magnitude better than that which was in place during the 3 year reign of the Drake. And some of the rebalances have even been incremental tweaks, just as many view the present Ishtar nerf (and really only time will tell). This is similarly an improvement over the old baseball bat, battle axe, or sledge hammer of nerfdoom. They are doing a great job on the whole. CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 314	Posted - 2015.03.04 01:23:16 - [108] - Quote When I said Immune to EWAR, I mean near as makes no difference. You don't need to lock up a Rokh 8 times to jam all 8 of it's guns from firing, but you need 5 locks to lock out most Drone BS's. Also, as far as I'm aware they are immune to Tracking Disruption, Sensor Damps, obviously cap warfare.. And even if they do, you still need to do it 5x times.. For a weapon system that already is as good or better than the standard gun alternatives. Lets be honest here, putting ECM on drones or something really only works in very few situations, it's NOT a solution.. outside of the AT anyway lol.. My point is more, if you want a weapon system where it ignores most effects, and needs far more ships/mods focused on them to take them out of the game, then they should be less powerful than their standard counterparts. Otherwise, find a way to have similar effects. Personally, I'd like more mods.. I don't think TD's should have any effect on missiles, I think we should have one FOR missiles. And one FOR drones. And then you need to make serious decisions ahead of time. Or need to make sure your attacking fleet isn't reliant on a single meta can be countered easily. I don't mind if the current TD ships get bonuses to all the mods, so you never know what it's fit, but as long as they need to pick a fit and stick with it, I'm for it.. Well that or have mobile depots.. If not the same effects, then give us new effects.. Say, mods that will reduce your drone control range, reduce your drone bandwidth, introduce some sort of lag between your ship and the drones.. Lots of potential options..

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