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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Abriana Overlord Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:25:00 - [31] Edited by: Abriana Overlord on 11/10/2006 18:25:35 To be honest take political correctness and RL politics out of it. it a bloody game imo ccp employees should be able to play the game like anyone else. If they got caught cheating not only would they get banned but prolly fired as well. so lay off and let them play like the rest of us, tbh there is prolly loads of corps out there that have ccp employees in there corps and do not even like it. bloody hell talk about overheated timfoil hats or what
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:30:00 - [32] Edited by: Rikeka on 11/10/2006 18:31:44 Originally by: Hectic Originally by: Rikeka You guys played SWG? Yeah? Cool! Liked it? More or less? Good... Yeah, Sony ruined it. Oh, BTW. I had 5 Black Sun helmets (got 2 by the ¿easy way¿, on my defense, never asked for one), and half a Mandi armour... and... err 2 jeypacks (had one, got another) The day that happened, I lost faith in game companies (yes, I quitted the game the very same day... in fact, 2 days after that as I only logged then) Mind you, it was Sony. Maybe CCP will prove me wrong. It has not yet, but only because I`m already with the notion that I`m being cheated. I¦m human. Translation? Needs one? Though it was clear. Guess I can just resume it by saying: No trust. Not CCP`s fault, mine. The OP is right, it`s all about perception.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:30:00 - [33] so you dont trust gms/devs to play fair now but you would trust their word if they told you they quitted their "player accs". Sounds retarded. Eve is a special game because the ppl dealing with customer support, bug hunting and development actually have the possibility to see stuff first hand. Be it pos lag, fleetbattle problems or market issues or or. Stuff they simply wont encounter if they couldnt try it in "the real environment" unless u want them to trust "the word of who cries loudest or most" which worked well for swg, not. Ccp had in the whole time 2 cases where somenoe "broke the rules" in both cases it was handed swiftly, the guy got removed from game and office. Apart from that we only have rumors, wild accusations and balant lying going against ccp employees who to my knowledge have nothing on their vests yet to be ashamed off. Would be sad if ccp was forced to a decision because some allianceleaders cant accept that their plans, their pilots and operations failed because someone was better. Without blaming it on "superior magic powers". As others stated, if youre concerned gms favour your enemies write to kieron. He will deal with any proof and accusation right away. However if you dont have proof and just want to shout wild fairy tales to make yourself feel better, cancel your sub. Youre not forced to pay for it.
Christopher Multsanti Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:31:00 - [34] Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Clarify? I am guessing what he is trying to say is that the original posts states, even if there is no wrong doing going on by GM's and DEV's (which I would personally say there is not), it's the fact there is the perception that this could happen that makes people feel uncomfortable. The orginal post is simply saying that CCP employees have put themselves in a comprising postition and that is should not happen. Then basically everyone in this thread flamed him without picking up on the guys points that have some merit as stated above. [ER Public Relations Officer] [Is main activated, check, Post!]
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:32:00 - [35] Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Clarify? I think Eve should follow the same example as practically every single other form of money making entertainment, no game participation from senior employees. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Christopher Multsanti Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:33:00 - [36] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Clarify? I think Eve should follow the same example as practically every single other form of money making entertainment, no game participation from senior employees. Ok, you said it better than me. [ER Public Relations Officer] [Is main activated, check, Post!]
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:37:00 - [37] Edited by: Rikeka on 11/10/2006 18:39:53 Originally by: Kcel Chim so you dont trust gms/devs to play fair now but you would trust their word if they told you they quitted their "player accs". Sounds retarded. Eve is a special game because the ppl dealing with customer support, bug hunting and development actually have the possibility to see stuff first hand. Be it pos lag, fleetbattle problems or market issues or or. Stuff they simply wont encounter if they couldnt try it in "the real environment" unless u want them to trust "the word of who cries loudest or most" which worked well for swg, not. Ccp had in the whole time 2 cases where somenoe "broke the rules" in both cases it was handed swiftly, the guy got removed from game and office. Apart from that we only have rumors, wild accusations and balant lying going against ccp employees who to my knowledge have nothing on their vests yet to be ashamed off. Would be sad if ccp was forced to a decision because some allianceleaders cant accept that their plans, their pilots and operations failed because someone was better. Without blaming it on "superior magic powers". As others stated, if youre concerned gms favour your enemies write to kieron. He will deal with any proof and accusation right away. However if you dont have proof and just want to shout wild fairy tales to make yourself feel better, cancel your sub. Youre not forced to pay for it. Nice example, which I can too use. You take for granted that what resulted on those 2 cases was resolved- That`s retarded too? (I too believe it, just an example). What the OP speaks here is of ¿perception¿! BTW, the Sony devs played the game... on space. Not kidding.
Eleese Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:37:00 - [38] Well if people dont trust ccp decision and think gm's etc may abuse their powers to help their alliances.... why would you trust them to enforce a rule stating employee's cant play the game. Especially since i think alot of employee's played the game before they became members of the ccp team.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:38:00 - [39] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Clarify? I think Eve should follow the same example as practically every single other form of money making entertainment, no game participation from senior employees. I disagree...often the best games are the games designed by the devs to be the game they want to play. Let them play. senior devs are not going to cheat and loose their jobs over some pixels. Now some low level gm working for peanuts, thats another story.
Daald Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:42:00 - [40] Edited by: Daald on 11/10/2006 18:43:55 Originally by: Eleese Well if people dont trust ccp decision and think gm's etc may abuse their powers to help their alliances.... why would you trust them to enforce a rule stating employee's cant play the game. Especially since i think alot of employee's played the game before they became members of the ccp team. I think it's a matter of not trusting the individual and not the entity. If the entity clearly stated that they are actively looking at this then most people would be satisfied. I don't care either way. I'll play this game until it stops being fun. ___________________________________________ Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. -Murphy
Swor Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:42:00 - [41] Edited by: Swor on 11/10/2006 18:43:00 All GMs/Devs forced to leave alliances are welcome in S******dly, contact Ander, i think his office is the 3rd on the left in CCP HQ
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:47:00 - [42] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Clarify? I think Eve should follow the same example as practically every single other form of money making entertainment, no game participation from senior employees. And you believe that is the truth, do you, ww? You really think they don't play their own game? Really? The biggest thing that sets CCP apart from any other games publisher I have experience with (not many in the MMO market, admittedly) is that they are honest to a fault. I have faith in CCP to be honest and to be fair. That trust has been built up through their honest acts and long term actions, if they say that the devs don't "cheat", then I believe them. If they said that their employees were now banned from Alliance participation not only would I believe them but I would take that as final confirmation that they were listening more to the playerbase than their own, amazing, business and game development sense. You really think that's worth it? Just so you can sleep safe at night knowing that a dev didn't pwn you and not cheat?
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:48:00 - [43] Originally by: Serapis Aote Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Clarify? I think Eve should follow the same example as practically every single other form of money making entertainment, no game participation from senior employees. I disagree...often the best games are the games designed by the devs to be the game they want to play. Let them play. senior devs are not going to cheat and loose their jobs over some pixels. Now some low level gm working for peanuts, thats another story. You make a good point. It's just that Griz put forward a very good argument and so far the only opposition to his suggestion has been of the 'irrational abuse with no grasp of the situation' form. His argument solves more problems than it creates. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:48:00 - [44] Originally by: Rikeka Nice example, which I can too use. You take for granted that what resulted on those 2 cases was resolved- That`s retarded too? (I too believe it, just an example). What the OP speaks here is of ¿perception¿! BTW, the Sony devs played the game... on space. Not kidding. Yes i do believe Kieron if he tells me he took action. If i couldnt believe the head community manager i would cancel my sub, simple as that. Afteall you trust them with your RL info, your RL cash and years worth of gametime....
CHAOS100 Momentum.	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:49:00 - [45] I doubt that CCP employees exploit or give any real advice at home. I am sure that they have a certain degree of maturity and confidentiality. If CCP employees cannot play the game and have the same experience as us, how can they make any good changes or additions to the game? If they are restrained to being empire huggers, then how will that help improve/fix fleet pvp and other big alliance activities.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:51:00 - [46] Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Clarify? I think Eve should follow the same example as practically every single other form of money making entertainment, no game participation from senior employees. And you believe that is the truth, do you, ww? You really think they don't play their own game? Really? The biggest thing that sets CCP apart from any other games publisher I have experience with (not many in the MMO market, admittedly) is that they are honest to a fault. I have faith in CCP to be honest and to be fair. That trust has been built up through their honest acts and long term actions, if they say that the devs don't "cheat", then I believe them. If they said that their employees were now banned from Alliance participation not only would I believe them but I would take that as final confirmation that they were listening more to the playerbase than their own, amazing, business and game development sense. You really think that's worth it? Just so you can sleep safe at night knowing that a dev didn't pwn you and not cheat? Money, trust, honesty and temptation don't mix. The human race has been proving this since it came down from the trees. To be honest though, whatever, I'm really not that arsed either way. I don't believe the whole 'dev/gm conspiracy' crap anyway. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:51:00 - [47] Originally by: welsh wizard You make a good point. It's just that Griz put forward a very good argument and so far the only opposition to his suggestion has been of the 'irrational abuse with no grasp of the situation' form. His argument solves more problems than it creates. Sorry welsh but it doesn't solve the problems that need solving. Which do you think is more of a motivator to fix the current critical server problems (specifically, node deaths): The Dev that plays in BoB / ASCN / Alliance warfare and suffers the same node deaths and crashes as the rest of us. or The dev that sits in Jita running lvl 4's, or the dev that camps gates in P3? Seriously?
ProphetGuru Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:52:00 - [48] Playerbase dictating the rules to the folks who create and run the game. Hmm sure, that'll happen. The biggest problem here is that you all assume that alliances are full of GM's and Devs. The reality is, you don't know. Neither do I. If you suspect something is amiss, petition it, and push the petition up thru the various levels untill it is resolved. Accusing your enemies of being employees of the game company is an old, and stale tactic, typically used by those who get outplayed by someone, and wish to cover their inadequecies. Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:54:00 - [49] Edited by: welsh wizard on 11/10/2006 18:55:13 Originally by: ProphetGuru Playerbase dictating the rules to the folks who create and run the game. Hmm sure, that'll happen. The biggest problem here is that you all assume that alliances are full of GM's and Devs. The reality is, you don't know. Neither do I. If you suspect something is amiss, petition it, and push the petition up thru the various levels untill it is resolved. Accusing your enemies of being employees of the game company is an old, and stale tactic, typically used by those who get outplayed by someone, and wish to cover their inadequecies. Fair enough, I can agree with that, doesn't solve the problem* though does it? The problem being the playerbases perception of CCP employee involvement. Originally by:* anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:12:00 - [50] Edited by: DB Preacher on 11/10/2006 19:12:47 Stuff the player base in this case tbh. I'm a dev in another company and if I was working on an MMORPG I'd sure as hell be in the biggest and best alliances in the game on a variety of accounts as they would simply produce the best bug testing around. So quite frankly those talking here about OMGBANTHISSICKFILTH have no clue about the games industry. I don't think you will find one worker in the games industry who will agree with you. Thanks, dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
spiralJunkie Minmatar Eve Radio Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:31:00 - [51] Originally by: Grizwold In RL I am a diplomat and one of the issues we deal with is "perception" rather than proof of wrong doing. One must remove the perception of one party having an advantage over another due to inside information or advice or ability to manipulate game mechanics etc. It does not matter if the GM or Moderator etc actually does something suspicious, the perception that they "may" have is sufficient to cause problems for gamers and CCP. CCP must bring in a formal policy that all CCP employes (volunteers with inside info as well) must be instructed that they may not belong to an alliance. I believe that such a policy is long overdue and will remove any complaints about "influence" by GMs etc on game play and favoritism on petitions etc etc. It is good that GMs play the game , just not in formal alliances. GMs make very good pirates :P what you're saying boils down to the fact that CCP can no longer play EVE. _ The pundits in the studio are talking , and despite not knowing what any of this means I am riveted
Zimi Vlasic F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:36:00 - [52] I used to be near the top of the food chain for a popular gaming ladder site. I encouraged the ladder and game admins to play the games they moderate, on competitive teams. Why would I do such a thing? Simple, really. The ladder admins need to know all of the ins-and-outs of the games for which they administrated. They need to be in touch with the competitive community. They need to know what the game mechanics are, and what the exploits are and look like. Yes, I also encouraged them to find and test exploits. When I started this policy, it increased our exploit detection considerably because they knew what to look for. In any case where it could be proven the admins were using their position to manipulate their team's standing or the outcome of a dispute, the admins were let go. Admins were not allowed to moderate when their team was involved in a dispute. At that point, they were just a player. While there were some players that believed the staff should not be allowed to play on the ladders, almost all of the people that were plaing on our ladders agreed it was necessary and helped the overall quality of the ladders. Quite simply stated, if you don't trust the staff of the game you're playing, stop giving them your money. Find Roid, Examine, and Excavate Explorer
Skull Digger Minmatar ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:48:00 - [53] I love this game. If you believe what you think is true and you know they wont say the truth but want you to believe what they said is true then your right. How do we know anyone that posts on the forums or are in our corps are are CCP. Who do you trust? Wow I thought I was a wack job. __________ Death is about 1.2 sec away. Have you updated your clone recently. . Death to Pods
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:48:00 - [54] Edited by: Baun on 11/10/2006 19:49:00 People need to take a step back from the usual course of this forum and actually think before they post. This is not an black and white issue and there is no need to treat it as such. There are legitimate reasons for having developers and those in charge of maintaining the game on an every day basis play the game in all facets. There are also legitimate problems created by having developers and GMs playing the game in all facets. What is important is that the company is aware of the fact that the perception that they are impartial is incredibly important. I don't doubt CCP itself is impartial, nor do I believe that any GMs do things that are untoward. I don't, however, think CCP is sufficiently careful concerning the issue of perception. They need to help maintain the right balance by avoiding obvious perpception problems like those created when a Dev posts addressing lag in one war after not posting in similiar threads about half a dozen previous wars (just one example I know, but regardless of their source, perception issues are important). In sum; Assuming honesty on the part of the developer there is still a balance that is struck between what is best for the maintenance and development of the game and what can be percieved to hurt the game and in so doing actually hurt the game. CCP needs to be more aware of the latter and go farther, to the extent that it is possible, to curb issues of perception. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Aterna Minmatar M'8'S	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:49:00 - [55] To the OP: You are overlaying the political community's rationality on something that is completely different. Politics is such that people can make or break another person's career based on rumor, hearsay, and circumstantial evidence. Because the perception of wrongdoing is something they want to avoid adamantly. The difference between your world of "perception" and MMO game development is that we can obtain proof of wrongdoing, and the political community won't. In short. Your perception is flawed. And it's why the world is in as bad a shape as it is now. - - -
Cabadrin Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:53:00 - [56] But if no one knows who the CCP employees are ... ? Then isn't there no evidence of wrongdoing or bias, and wouldn't that mean that people leaving the alliances would have no effect since no one would know if they left or not? TBH your argument makes no sense since no one knows who the GMs or CCP employees are. If you could say "85 of CCP employees are in alliances and 40% in BoB!" then I could see your point, but we don't know that. _______________________________________________
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:57:00 - [57] Originally by: Aterna The difference between your world of "perception" and MMO game development is that we can obtain proof of wrongdoing, and the political community won't. I think you have this almost entirely backward. Once information exists in the real world there are methods of discovering it that exist outside anyone's control. In EVE, we have no access to any of the actual information behind the game. We are in the dark about most things and there are almost no avenues to pursue within the game to fix this. Quote: In short. Your perception is flawed. And it's why the world is in as bad a shape as it is now. The entire point is that while what actually happens in the game is important, what people think is happening is also important. It is almost as crucial for CCP to make sure people believe that they do nothing improper when they play as we do, as for them to actually do nothing improper. If people don't have trust the developers then the faith of the community is undermined. As the faith of the community falls the game begins to die. This has not happened to EVE and it needs to be guarded against. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:04:00 - [58] The funny thing about "perception" is that it is relative to one person only: The host. "People" do not perceive anything, a person does. As such if a person is that convinced that the only way he could lose is because someone cheats then no matter what proof is presented to them they will STILL believe that there is "developer interference". So, those who perceive that CCP "cheat" will not be convinced, ever, so what's the point in trying?
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:05:00 - [59] Originally by: Aterna To the OP: You are overlaying the political community's rationality on something that is completely different. Politics is such that people can make or break another person's career based on rumor, hearsay, and circumstantial evidence. Because the perception of wrongdoing is something they want to avoid adamantly. The difference between your world of "perception" and MMO game development is that we can obtain proof of wrongdoing, and the political community won't. In short. Your perception is flawed. And it's why the world is in as bad a shape as it is now. Err... so you are agreeing with the OP? You said. 1) ¿your world of perception¿ 2) ¿MMO game development¿ a)is that we can obtain proof of wrongdoing- b)and the political community cannot- As how you placed it, 1 is a, 2 is b? Doubt you would fall for that contradiction, and probably I got it wrong. Then even better, because it means you know how to obtain proof of wrongdoing on the game! Right?
Grizwold Royal Canuck Air Force	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:05:00 - [60] Originally by: Zimi Vlasic Simple, really. The ladder admins need to know all of the ins-and-outs of the games for which they administrated. They need to be in touch with the competitive community. They need to know what the game mechanics are, and what the exploits are and look like. Yes, I also encouraged them to find and test exploits. When I started this policy, it increased our exploit detection considerably because they knew what to look for. In any case where it could be proven the admins were using their position to manipulate their team's standing or the outcome of a dispute, the admins were let go. Admins were not allowed to moderate when their team was involved in a dispute. At that point, they were just a player. While there were some players that believed the staff should not be allowed to play on the ladders, almost all of the people that were plaing on our ladders agreed it was necessary and helped the overall quality of the ladders. Very good perspective Zimi and also thanks to the others who took the time to formulate constructive ideas. I totally agree that GMs and Devs must play the game in order to make it better. That said, the perception issue comes up when individual, long time GM/Dev players are perceived as identifing with a single entity or alliance. I would suggest that all GM/Devs had multiple accounts and play in many different alliances/corps so as to not become "native" as it were, thus removing any favoritism accusations - both in battles and petitions GMs/Devs used to, long long ago, simply join gangs to identify problems in battles etc. I know we had a few join us in SA vs CA battles. Because they popped in and out, there was not a "perception" issue as they could be expected to possibly fly with the opposition at the next battle in order to investigate an issue (at the time it was tactics that caused CTD exploit suspicions). Any practical suggestions that remove the perception of favoritism or influence are good and lessens the hassles that CCP has to deal with on a day to day basis. cheers Griz

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