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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Grizwold Royal Canuck Air Force	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:13:00 - [1] In RL I am a diplomat and one of the issues we deal with is "perception" rather than proof of wrong doing. One must remove the perception of one party having an advantage over another due to inside information or advice or ability to manipulate game mechanics etc. It does not matter if the GM or Moderator etc actually does something suspicious, the perception that they "may" have is sufficient to cause problems for gamers and CCP. CCP must bring in a formal policy that all CCP employes (volunteers with inside info as well) must be instructed that they may not belong to an alliance. I believe that such a policy is long overdue and will remove any complaints about "influence" by GMs etc on game play and favoritism on petitions etc etc. It is good that GMs play the game , just not in formal alliances. GMs make very good pirates :P
Major Stormer Caldari Demon Womb Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:15:00 - [2] Edited by: Major Stormer on 11/10/2006 17:15:29 No. I dont care what that says, rumours will always remain rumours and that will never end. When BOB are dead and gone (which will happen over my dead corpze(s) :P ) and a new alliance is having a turn of good luck, then forum people will say devs are in that alliance. Noone knows who the devs are in their ingame form, or the gms, or the mods. That is enough. -------------------------- Above post is my opinion only and does not represent my corp/alliance.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:16:00 - [3] k track down the ccp employees in alliances and bring substantial proof they are being biased towards that alliance and you have a case. I'm guessing this is just an underhanded way to smack BoB because everyone know's they use l33t dev haxzorz blah blah blah insert some more stupid random smack from the losing side. In rust we trust!!!
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:17:00 - [4] Thing is that what happened with the ¿Ghost Scorpion¿ and where it happened gave a lot of people some doubts... Though I doubt that`s where it started... As for GM`s being Pirates... better them be gankers in Jita! Seriously, everyone would complain more if they get to be pirates. Persoanlly, I think they are doing Jove missions, and they love them. Which makes me wonder they have to rock!
Audrea Momentum.	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:17:00 - [5] Originally by: Grizwold In RL I am a diplomat and one of the issues we deal with is "perception" rather than proof of wrong doing. One must remove the perception of one party having an advantage over another due to inside information or advice or ability to manipulate game mechanics etc. It does not matter if the GM or Moderator etc actually does something suspicious, the perception that they "may" have is sufficient to cause problems for gamers and CCP. CCP must bring in a formal policy that all CCP employes (volunteers with inside info as well) must be instructed that they may not belong to an alliance. I believe that such a policy is long overdue and will remove any complaints about "influence" by GMs etc on game play and favoritism on petitions etc etc. It is good that GMs play the game , just not in formal alliances. GMs make very good pirates :P lol, and then we will have lots of whiners that GMs do insta locks and pop them in empire gate camps SEriously there is nothing CCP can do when some people just intent on believing certain version of the events. Just like some wouldnt believe the goverment on certain issues, and prefer to believe in conspiracies, some of them really wild , despite all goverment efforts etc. ------------------ yay, the Deimos has been saved!
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:17:00 - [6] Originally by: Major Stormer Edited by: Major Stormer on 11/10/2006 17:15:29 No. I dont care what that says, rumours will always remain rumours and that will never end. When BOB are dead and gone (which will happen over my dead corpze(s) :P ) and a new alliance is having a turn of good luck, then forum people will say devs are in that alliance. Noone knows who the devs are in their ingame form, or the gms, or the mods. That is enough. Acutally a small few are known thru mistakes and errors by CCP.
Quutar Caldari Uxor Infensus	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:17:00 - [7] i am guessing that you also don't want ccp staff to ever experiance large fleet combat. How about you trust CCP? sonofabeachballbouncingmarymotherfiretrucker
CLEISTHENES2 Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:18:00 - [8] lollerskaters...Get a grip.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:18:00 - [9] Originally by: Grizwold It is good that GMs play the game , just not in formal alliances. GMs make very good pirates :P Like the one that gave pimp scorp to a newb who got ganked in A2- ? GMs are fine, i seriously doubt any of them would risk his RL job to use his GM powers. And according to CYVOK's delusions, we don't have RL anyway so there's no GMs in bob.
Zhaine B e l l u m	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:20:00 - [10] Originally by: Shin Ra Originally by: Major Stormer Edited by: Major Stormer on 11/10/2006 17:15:29 No. I dont care what that says, rumours will always remain rumours and that will never end. When BOB are dead and gone (which will happen over my dead corpze(s) :P ) and a new alliance is having a turn of good luck, then forum people will say devs are in that alliance. Noone knows who the devs are in their ingame form, or the gms, or the mods. That is enough. Acutally a small few are known thru mistakes and errors by CCP. I take it you have screenshots to prove it? Oh, wait! - - - - - - - - - - Quote: I don't even want a ship, ships are for carebears. Give me a fish bowl for my head (to keep space out) and smear me with lard, then armed with a toasting fork-
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:21:00 - [11] wouldnt the membercount of MC go down by ~100 if all CCP left?
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:21:00 - [12] nobody has any reason to care about perception unless the consequences of being percieved in a negative light actually matter to them - which, clearly, they dont. ____ Itty-Bitty Crow <3
JINX HSC Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:26:00 - [13] I have only meet one dev in game and he played whit me in PA during GNW.... my opinion is that Devs/GM shall play eve more then they do today.. its ******* awfull when you petition something and the gm dont know what the things you describe are.. once meet a GM that didnt know that there was concreble stn in eve.. - BRINGING KLADDKAKA TO EVE!! -
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:31:00 - [14] Edited by: Plutoinum on 11/10/2006 17:31:42 I think especially the devs are professional enough that they don't use their 'dev-power' to get an advantage. It's a question of pride. And about knowledge: Yes, they can look at the code, but that doesn't mean that they are automatically uber. I guess they are probably quite often amazed obout 'tricks' that other players find out and use, otherwise they'd have implemented several things different.
Kuentai Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:31:00 - [15] Whiners will always find a way to whine, if it isn't about this it will be about something else. Don't cave in to whiners! --------------- "The good man has few enemies, but the ruthless... None."
Solwolf Gallente BIG Advanced Assault R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:32:00 - [16] Gah let the ccp employees play if they want. I mean do you really want me to quit...err wait...don't answer that. If they abuse their power, they're risking their jobs. I doubt many people would do that, though a few may yes. Real life companies have to have incentives to keep people on board. Why in the world would they require their employees not to play a game that they make? That'd be self-destructive. The alliance politics and the things you can do in alliance are a part of the game. Let them see what it's like for themselves. Perhaps they might even make it better as a result. Recruitment
Audrea Momentum.	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:37:00 - [17] Besides, those so called 'GM Powers' can only be used from inside the CCP offices, therefore when GMs come back home from shifts, they cant do anything for their alliance beyond what regular player can. Even if they wanted to from the office, I dont think its possible: Its very likely CCP has deployed measures to prevent it, such as logging every action the GM client (for analysis in case there are complaints), Allowing GM actions to be taken only under an open petition case (eg no action can be taken, which is not assigned to certain petition, etc). ------------------ yay, the Deimos has been saved!
Archonus Solar Wind Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:37:00 - [18] Hi Griz. hows sq doing? and, ** on the devs if they are doing such stuff -- PHP Programmer Extraordinaire** -- -- Serving you since 1903 --
Dynast Knights of Red Mars	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:42:00 - [19] In my opinion it's absolutely imperative that the devs play the game; there's no substitute for first person experience when it comes to understanding game mechanics and balance in general. Even if some of 'em were cheating, the harm that'd do would be localized and minor compared to the massive damage devs can do to a game by making changes when they don't actually understand wtf is going on.
Dortock The Scarlet Harmonic	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:46:00 - [20] There may be employees of CCP in BoB, ASCN, CIC, w/e you name it. If you don't trust them to be fair and professional in not providing 'advantages' to the alliances they are part of, then sir, you need to quit the game. You need to place full trust in CCP, they won't **** up their own child so that some alliance can win some battle. King Tinfoil Hatter
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:50:00 - [21] YEAH CCP! WHATEVER you do, do NOT let your employees play the alliance game, DO NOT let them be involved with the higher end of gameplay, WHAT POSSIBLE BENEFITS FOR THE REST OF THE GAME CAN THERE BE??? In fact, we should ring coca cola and ban their employees from drinking coca cola, GETTING HIGH ON YOUR OWN SUPPLY IS BAD MKAY?! You know, I hope there are Devs and gms in ASCN. I even hope that we have some in BoB, where else will they get the firsthand experience of the vital and critical matters that affect this game we love? In Jita? In a newb corp? Get real.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:52:00 - [22] gosh louisa we all know that ccp totally gives bob 300% hp in fleet fights and a titan for every ship you kill!! In rust we trust!!!
Daald Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:52:00 - [23] Well, here is some food for thought. Linkage ___________________________________________ Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. -Murphy
Hast Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:53:00 - [24] I dont mind GM's and DEVs in alliances really... And no its nto because I'm in BoB... would you want every GM or developer to play the empire game churning level four missions into oblivion? Remember the developers made this game and its beneficial to us that they play the same way that we do. This will give them better understanding of the rights and wrongs in the game and gamebalance. If game masters didnt know the game mechanics like the rest of us then they wouldnt be able to function as helpers when the game shows its bad side to us... It wouldnt help against the favouritism charges or anythinge either since the npeople will just find a new way to try to paint their opponents in their colour of choosing (usually black) Originally by: CYVOK If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain. -CYVOK-
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:54:00 - [25] Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:55:00 - [26] Originally by: welsh wizard Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Clarify?
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:03:00 - [27] You guys played SWG? Yeah? Cool! Liked it? More or less? Good... Yeah, Sony ruined it. Oh, BTW. I had 5 Black Sun helmets (got 2 by the ¿easy way¿, on my defense, never asked for one), and half a Mandi armour... and... err 2 jeypacks (had one, got another) The day that happened, I lost faith in game companies (yes, I quitted the game the very same day... in fact, 2 days after that as I only logged then) Mind you, it was Sony. Maybe CCP will prove me wrong. It has not yet, but only because I`m already with the notion that I`m being cheated. I¦m human.
Karneh Vorous Reaver Inc	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:09:00 - [28] Quote: In RL I am a diplomat After that opening.... I knew the rest was going to be something I didn't like... I WANT the people who make the game to play the game. If they don't play, how are they going to know what the problems of the game are? There should be CCP employees involved in every single element of the game to ensure the quality of their product. When they stop playing all the elements, they stop caring and that's not good for anyone.
Gift Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:10:00 - [29] Why can't the dev's play the game how they want? If they enjoy playing the game they created and play it by the same rules the rest of us do whats the problem? perception, get over it. Pirates of Eve, Join channel "Pirate" Today!
Hectic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Rikeka You guys played SWG? Yeah? Cool! Liked it? More or less? Good... Yeah, Sony ruined it. Oh, BTW. I had 5 Black Sun helmets (got 2 by the ¿easy way¿, on my defense, never asked for one), and half a Mandi armour... and... err 2 jeypacks (had one, got another) The day that happened, I lost faith in game companies (yes, I quitted the game the very same day... in fact, 2 days after that as I only logged then) Mind you, it was Sony. Maybe CCP will prove me wrong. It has not yet, but only because I`m already with the notion that I`m being cheated. I¦m human. Translation? WELCOME BACK MGRL!
Abriana Overlord Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:25:00 - [31] Edited by: Abriana Overlord on 11/10/2006 18:25:35 To be honest take political correctness and RL politics out of it. it a bloody game imo ccp employees should be able to play the game like anyone else. If they got caught cheating not only would they get banned but prolly fired as well. so lay off and let them play like the rest of us, tbh there is prolly loads of corps out there that have ccp employees in there corps and do not even like it. bloody hell talk about overheated timfoil hats or what
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:30:00 - [32] Edited by: Rikeka on 11/10/2006 18:31:44 Originally by: Hectic Originally by: Rikeka You guys played SWG? Yeah? Cool! Liked it? More or less? Good... Yeah, Sony ruined it. Oh, BTW. I had 5 Black Sun helmets (got 2 by the ¿easy way¿, on my defense, never asked for one), and half a Mandi armour... and... err 2 jeypacks (had one, got another) The day that happened, I lost faith in game companies (yes, I quitted the game the very same day... in fact, 2 days after that as I only logged then) Mind you, it was Sony. Maybe CCP will prove me wrong. It has not yet, but only because I`m already with the notion that I`m being cheated. I¦m human. Translation? Needs one? Though it was clear. Guess I can just resume it by saying: No trust. Not CCP`s fault, mine. The OP is right, it`s all about perception.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:30:00 - [33] so you dont trust gms/devs to play fair now but you would trust their word if they told you they quitted their "player accs". Sounds retarded. Eve is a special game because the ppl dealing with customer support, bug hunting and development actually have the possibility to see stuff first hand. Be it pos lag, fleetbattle problems or market issues or or. Stuff they simply wont encounter if they couldnt try it in "the real environment" unless u want them to trust "the word of who cries loudest or most" which worked well for swg, not. Ccp had in the whole time 2 cases where somenoe "broke the rules" in both cases it was handed swiftly, the guy got removed from game and office. Apart from that we only have rumors, wild accusations and balant lying going against ccp employees who to my knowledge have nothing on their vests yet to be ashamed off. Would be sad if ccp was forced to a decision because some allianceleaders cant accept that their plans, their pilots and operations failed because someone was better. Without blaming it on "superior magic powers". As others stated, if youre concerned gms favour your enemies write to kieron. He will deal with any proof and accusation right away. However if you dont have proof and just want to shout wild fairy tales to make yourself feel better, cancel your sub. Youre not forced to pay for it.
Christopher Multsanti Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:31:00 - [34] Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Clarify? I am guessing what he is trying to say is that the original posts states, even if there is no wrong doing going on by GM's and DEV's (which I would personally say there is not), it's the fact there is the perception that this could happen that makes people feel uncomfortable. The orginal post is simply saying that CCP employees have put themselves in a comprising postition and that is should not happen. Then basically everyone in this thread flamed him without picking up on the guys points that have some merit as stated above. [ER Public Relations Officer] [Is main activated, check, Post!]
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:32:00 - [35] Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Clarify? I think Eve should follow the same example as practically every single other form of money making entertainment, no game participation from senior employees. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Christopher Multsanti Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:33:00 - [36] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Clarify? I think Eve should follow the same example as practically every single other form of money making entertainment, no game participation from senior employees. Ok, you said it better than me. [ER Public Relations Officer] [Is main activated, check, Post!]
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:37:00 - [37] Edited by: Rikeka on 11/10/2006 18:39:53 Originally by: Kcel Chim so you dont trust gms/devs to play fair now but you would trust their word if they told you they quitted their "player accs". Sounds retarded. Eve is a special game because the ppl dealing with customer support, bug hunting and development actually have the possibility to see stuff first hand. Be it pos lag, fleetbattle problems or market issues or or. Stuff they simply wont encounter if they couldnt try it in "the real environment" unless u want them to trust "the word of who cries loudest or most" which worked well for swg, not. Ccp had in the whole time 2 cases where somenoe "broke the rules" in both cases it was handed swiftly, the guy got removed from game and office. Apart from that we only have rumors, wild accusations and balant lying going against ccp employees who to my knowledge have nothing on their vests yet to be ashamed off. Would be sad if ccp was forced to a decision because some allianceleaders cant accept that their plans, their pilots and operations failed because someone was better. Without blaming it on "superior magic powers". As others stated, if youre concerned gms favour your enemies write to kieron. He will deal with any proof and accusation right away. However if you dont have proof and just want to shout wild fairy tales to make yourself feel better, cancel your sub. Youre not forced to pay for it. Nice example, which I can too use. You take for granted that what resulted on those 2 cases was resolved- That`s retarded too? (I too believe it, just an example). What the OP speaks here is of ¿perception¿! BTW, the Sony devs played the game... on space. Not kidding.
Eleese Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:37:00 - [38] Well if people dont trust ccp decision and think gm's etc may abuse their powers to help their alliances.... why would you trust them to enforce a rule stating employee's cant play the game. Especially since i think alot of employee's played the game before they became members of the ccp team.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:38:00 - [39] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Clarify? I think Eve should follow the same example as practically every single other form of money making entertainment, no game participation from senior employees. I disagree...often the best games are the games designed by the devs to be the game they want to play. Let them play. senior devs are not going to cheat and loose their jobs over some pixels. Now some low level gm working for peanuts, thats another story.
Daald Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:42:00 - [40] Edited by: Daald on 11/10/2006 18:43:55 Originally by: Eleese Well if people dont trust ccp decision and think gm's etc may abuse their powers to help their alliances.... why would you trust them to enforce a rule stating employee's cant play the game. Especially since i think alot of employee's played the game before they became members of the ccp team. I think it's a matter of not trusting the individual and not the entity. If the entity clearly stated that they are actively looking at this then most people would be satisfied. I don't care either way. I'll play this game until it stops being fun. ___________________________________________ Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. -Murphy
Swor Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:42:00 - [41] Edited by: Swor on 11/10/2006 18:43:00 All GMs/Devs forced to leave alliances are welcome in S******dly, contact Ander, i think his office is the 3rd on the left in CCP HQ
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:47:00 - [42] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Clarify? I think Eve should follow the same example as practically every single other form of money making entertainment, no game participation from senior employees. And you believe that is the truth, do you, ww? You really think they don't play their own game? Really? The biggest thing that sets CCP apart from any other games publisher I have experience with (not many in the MMO market, admittedly) is that they are honest to a fault. I have faith in CCP to be honest and to be fair. That trust has been built up through their honest acts and long term actions, if they say that the devs don't "cheat", then I believe them. If they said that their employees were now banned from Alliance participation not only would I believe them but I would take that as final confirmation that they were listening more to the playerbase than their own, amazing, business and game development sense. You really think that's worth it? Just so you can sleep safe at night knowing that a dev didn't pwn you and not cheat?
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:48:00 - [43] Originally by: Serapis Aote Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Clarify? I think Eve should follow the same example as practically every single other form of money making entertainment, no game participation from senior employees. I disagree...often the best games are the games designed by the devs to be the game they want to play. Let them play. senior devs are not going to cheat and loose their jobs over some pixels. Now some low level gm working for peanuts, thats another story. You make a good point. It's just that Griz put forward a very good argument and so far the only opposition to his suggestion has been of the 'irrational abuse with no grasp of the situation' form. His argument solves more problems than it creates. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:48:00 - [44] Originally by: Rikeka Nice example, which I can too use. You take for granted that what resulted on those 2 cases was resolved- That`s retarded too? (I too believe it, just an example). What the OP speaks here is of ¿perception¿! BTW, the Sony devs played the game... on space. Not kidding. Yes i do believe Kieron if he tells me he took action. If i couldnt believe the head community manager i would cancel my sub, simple as that. Afteall you trust them with your RL info, your RL cash and years worth of gametime....
CHAOS100 Momentum.	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:49:00 - [45] I doubt that CCP employees exploit or give any real advice at home. I am sure that they have a certain degree of maturity and confidentiality. If CCP employees cannot play the game and have the same experience as us, how can they make any good changes or additions to the game? If they are restrained to being empire huggers, then how will that help improve/fix fleet pvp and other big alliance activities.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:51:00 - [46] Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: welsh wizard Only on the internet could a post as correct and fair as this be slated so ruthlessly. Clarify? I think Eve should follow the same example as practically every single other form of money making entertainment, no game participation from senior employees. And you believe that is the truth, do you, ww? You really think they don't play their own game? Really? The biggest thing that sets CCP apart from any other games publisher I have experience with (not many in the MMO market, admittedly) is that they are honest to a fault. I have faith in CCP to be honest and to be fair. That trust has been built up through their honest acts and long term actions, if they say that the devs don't "cheat", then I believe them. If they said that their employees were now banned from Alliance participation not only would I believe them but I would take that as final confirmation that they were listening more to the playerbase than their own, amazing, business and game development sense. You really think that's worth it? Just so you can sleep safe at night knowing that a dev didn't pwn you and not cheat? Money, trust, honesty and temptation don't mix. The human race has been proving this since it came down from the trees. To be honest though, whatever, I'm really not that arsed either way. I don't believe the whole 'dev/gm conspiracy' crap anyway. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:51:00 - [47] Originally by: welsh wizard You make a good point. It's just that Griz put forward a very good argument and so far the only opposition to his suggestion has been of the 'irrational abuse with no grasp of the situation' form. His argument solves more problems than it creates. Sorry welsh but it doesn't solve the problems that need solving. Which do you think is more of a motivator to fix the current critical server problems (specifically, node deaths): The Dev that plays in BoB / ASCN / Alliance warfare and suffers the same node deaths and crashes as the rest of us. or The dev that sits in Jita running lvl 4's, or the dev that camps gates in P3? Seriously?
ProphetGuru Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:52:00 - [48] Playerbase dictating the rules to the folks who create and run the game. Hmm sure, that'll happen. The biggest problem here is that you all assume that alliances are full of GM's and Devs. The reality is, you don't know. Neither do I. If you suspect something is amiss, petition it, and push the petition up thru the various levels untill it is resolved. Accusing your enemies of being employees of the game company is an old, and stale tactic, typically used by those who get outplayed by someone, and wish to cover their inadequecies. Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:54:00 - [49] Edited by: welsh wizard on 11/10/2006 18:55:13 Originally by: ProphetGuru Playerbase dictating the rules to the folks who create and run the game. Hmm sure, that'll happen. The biggest problem here is that you all assume that alliances are full of GM's and Devs. The reality is, you don't know. Neither do I. If you suspect something is amiss, petition it, and push the petition up thru the various levels untill it is resolved. Accusing your enemies of being employees of the game company is an old, and stale tactic, typically used by those who get outplayed by someone, and wish to cover their inadequecies. Fair enough, I can agree with that, doesn't solve the problem* though does it? The problem being the playerbases perception of CCP employee involvement. Originally by:* anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:12:00 - [50] Edited by: DB Preacher on 11/10/2006 19:12:47 Stuff the player base in this case tbh. I'm a dev in another company and if I was working on an MMORPG I'd sure as hell be in the biggest and best alliances in the game on a variety of accounts as they would simply produce the best bug testing around. So quite frankly those talking here about OMGBANTHISSICKFILTH have no clue about the games industry. I don't think you will find one worker in the games industry who will agree with you. Thanks, dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
spiralJunkie Minmatar Eve Radio Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:31:00 - [51] Originally by: Grizwold In RL I am a diplomat and one of the issues we deal with is "perception" rather than proof of wrong doing. One must remove the perception of one party having an advantage over another due to inside information or advice or ability to manipulate game mechanics etc. It does not matter if the GM or Moderator etc actually does something suspicious, the perception that they "may" have is sufficient to cause problems for gamers and CCP. CCP must bring in a formal policy that all CCP employes (volunteers with inside info as well) must be instructed that they may not belong to an alliance. I believe that such a policy is long overdue and will remove any complaints about "influence" by GMs etc on game play and favoritism on petitions etc etc. It is good that GMs play the game , just not in formal alliances. GMs make very good pirates :P what you're saying boils down to the fact that CCP can no longer play EVE. _ The pundits in the studio are talking , and despite not knowing what any of this means I am riveted
Zimi Vlasic F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:36:00 - [52] I used to be near the top of the food chain for a popular gaming ladder site. I encouraged the ladder and game admins to play the games they moderate, on competitive teams. Why would I do such a thing? Simple, really. The ladder admins need to know all of the ins-and-outs of the games for which they administrated. They need to be in touch with the competitive community. They need to know what the game mechanics are, and what the exploits are and look like. Yes, I also encouraged them to find and test exploits. When I started this policy, it increased our exploit detection considerably because they knew what to look for. In any case where it could be proven the admins were using their position to manipulate their team's standing or the outcome of a dispute, the admins were let go. Admins were not allowed to moderate when their team was involved in a dispute. At that point, they were just a player. While there were some players that believed the staff should not be allowed to play on the ladders, almost all of the people that were plaing on our ladders agreed it was necessary and helped the overall quality of the ladders. Quite simply stated, if you don't trust the staff of the game you're playing, stop giving them your money. Find Roid, Examine, and Excavate Explorer
Skull Digger Minmatar ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:48:00 - [53] I love this game. If you believe what you think is true and you know they wont say the truth but want you to believe what they said is true then your right. How do we know anyone that posts on the forums or are in our corps are are CCP. Who do you trust? Wow I thought I was a wack job. __________ Death is about 1.2 sec away. Have you updated your clone recently. . Death to Pods
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:48:00 - [54] Edited by: Baun on 11/10/2006 19:49:00 People need to take a step back from the usual course of this forum and actually think before they post. This is not an black and white issue and there is no need to treat it as such. There are legitimate reasons for having developers and those in charge of maintaining the game on an every day basis play the game in all facets. There are also legitimate problems created by having developers and GMs playing the game in all facets. What is important is that the company is aware of the fact that the perception that they are impartial is incredibly important. I don't doubt CCP itself is impartial, nor do I believe that any GMs do things that are untoward. I don't, however, think CCP is sufficiently careful concerning the issue of perception. They need to help maintain the right balance by avoiding obvious perpception problems like those created when a Dev posts addressing lag in one war after not posting in similiar threads about half a dozen previous wars (just one example I know, but regardless of their source, perception issues are important). In sum; Assuming honesty on the part of the developer there is still a balance that is struck between what is best for the maintenance and development of the game and what can be percieved to hurt the game and in so doing actually hurt the game. CCP needs to be more aware of the latter and go farther, to the extent that it is possible, to curb issues of perception. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Aterna Minmatar M'8'S	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:49:00 - [55] To the OP: You are overlaying the political community's rationality on something that is completely different. Politics is such that people can make or break another person's career based on rumor, hearsay, and circumstantial evidence. Because the perception of wrongdoing is something they want to avoid adamantly. The difference between your world of "perception" and MMO game development is that we can obtain proof of wrongdoing, and the political community won't. In short. Your perception is flawed. And it's why the world is in as bad a shape as it is now. - - -
Cabadrin Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:53:00 - [56] But if no one knows who the CCP employees are ... ? Then isn't there no evidence of wrongdoing or bias, and wouldn't that mean that people leaving the alliances would have no effect since no one would know if they left or not? TBH your argument makes no sense since no one knows who the GMs or CCP employees are. If you could say "85 of CCP employees are in alliances and 40% in BoB!" then I could see your point, but we don't know that. _______________________________________________
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:57:00 - [57] Originally by: Aterna The difference between your world of "perception" and MMO game development is that we can obtain proof of wrongdoing, and the political community won't. I think you have this almost entirely backward. Once information exists in the real world there are methods of discovering it that exist outside anyone's control. In EVE, we have no access to any of the actual information behind the game. We are in the dark about most things and there are almost no avenues to pursue within the game to fix this. Quote: In short. Your perception is flawed. And it's why the world is in as bad a shape as it is now. The entire point is that while what actually happens in the game is important, what people think is happening is also important. It is almost as crucial for CCP to make sure people believe that they do nothing improper when they play as we do, as for them to actually do nothing improper. If people don't have trust the developers then the faith of the community is undermined. As the faith of the community falls the game begins to die. This has not happened to EVE and it needs to be guarded against. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:04:00 - [58] The funny thing about "perception" is that it is relative to one person only: The host. "People" do not perceive anything, a person does. As such if a person is that convinced that the only way he could lose is because someone cheats then no matter what proof is presented to them they will STILL believe that there is "developer interference". So, those who perceive that CCP "cheat" will not be convinced, ever, so what's the point in trying?
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:05:00 - [59] Originally by: Aterna To the OP: You are overlaying the political community's rationality on something that is completely different. Politics is such that people can make or break another person's career based on rumor, hearsay, and circumstantial evidence. Because the perception of wrongdoing is something they want to avoid adamantly. The difference between your world of "perception" and MMO game development is that we can obtain proof of wrongdoing, and the political community won't. In short. Your perception is flawed. And it's why the world is in as bad a shape as it is now. Err... so you are agreeing with the OP? You said. 1) ¿your world of perception¿ 2) ¿MMO game development¿ a)is that we can obtain proof of wrongdoing- b)and the political community cannot- As how you placed it, 1 is a, 2 is b? Doubt you would fall for that contradiction, and probably I got it wrong. Then even better, because it means you know how to obtain proof of wrongdoing on the game! Right?
Grizwold Royal Canuck Air Force	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:05:00 - [60] Originally by: Zimi Vlasic Simple, really. The ladder admins need to know all of the ins-and-outs of the games for which they administrated. They need to be in touch with the competitive community. They need to know what the game mechanics are, and what the exploits are and look like. Yes, I also encouraged them to find and test exploits. When I started this policy, it increased our exploit detection considerably because they knew what to look for. In any case where it could be proven the admins were using their position to manipulate their team's standing or the outcome of a dispute, the admins were let go. Admins were not allowed to moderate when their team was involved in a dispute. At that point, they were just a player. While there were some players that believed the staff should not be allowed to play on the ladders, almost all of the people that were plaing on our ladders agreed it was necessary and helped the overall quality of the ladders. Very good perspective Zimi and also thanks to the others who took the time to formulate constructive ideas. I totally agree that GMs and Devs must play the game in order to make it better. That said, the perception issue comes up when individual, long time GM/Dev players are perceived as identifing with a single entity or alliance. I would suggest that all GM/Devs had multiple accounts and play in many different alliances/corps so as to not become "native" as it were, thus removing any favoritism accusations - both in battles and petitions GMs/Devs used to, long long ago, simply join gangs to identify problems in battles etc. I know we had a few join us in SA vs CA battles. Because they popped in and out, there was not a "perception" issue as they could be expected to possibly fly with the opposition at the next battle in order to investigate an issue (at the time it was tactics that caused CTD exploit suspicions). Any practical suggestions that remove the perception of favoritism or influence are good and lessens the hassles that CCP has to deal with on a day to day basis. cheers Griz
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:11:00 - [61] Originally by: Louisa Torres The funny thing about "perception" is that it is relative to one person only: The host. "People" do not perceive anything, a person does. As such if a person is that convinced that the only way he could lose is because someone cheats then no matter what proof is presented to them they will STILL believe that there is "developer interference". So, those who perceive that CCP "cheat" will not be convinced, ever, so what's the point in trying? Tell that to my subconscious inner conspiration lover. Aside of that, and as harsh this may sound, that`s CCP job (again, I somewhat believe in the devs).
Irrilian Eve University	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:13:00 - [62] A simple stated policy of impartiality would clear things up, i.e. petitions are assigned to a GM whom is not connected to anyone related to the petition e.g. if a petition concerning some contentious matter between E-Uni and E-Uni Combat Academy is made, then a GM whom isnÆt connected to either is assigned to resolve it. Personally I dont want to see the GMs become disconnected from parts of the game, to lack experience of aspects of the game that are often quite complex, poorly documented, contentious and subject to frequent change. Its good that CCP employees are actively engaged with all elements of the game. e.g. Would you really want a GM whoÆs only real experience of POS was setting one up on the Test server to try to work out whom owns a system, examining competing POS sovereignty claims over a system after a formally non aligned corp with a few towers in system that have been claiming sov for some time despite not being in an alliance, all following a node crash that has messed up the claims?
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:16:00 - [63] Originally by: Louisa Torres The funny thing about "perception" is that it is relative to one person only: The host. "People" do not perceive anything, a person does. You cannot control what any one person percieves. You can, however, control what a large number of rational people percieve when they are acting rationally. If you do not act strongly against information, true or not/clear or not, that could allow the average member of the community to believe something that would be detrimental to the game, then you are not acting responsibly. If the average (there is an interesting aside as to whether average should be average or it should be rational in cases like this, but we can leave that until another time) person can interpret information in one way then the community as a whole could do so. This is dangerous and needs to be guarded against. This is why the situation is VERY much analagous to politics. The entire thrust of politics is to shape the perception of the general public in your favor. If a politician can't do this he loses the election. If CCP can't convince people that they are impartial they lose their community. CCP actually being impartial is a huge step in this direction, but it is not the only step. Quote: As such if a person is that convinced that the only way he could lose is because someone cheats then no matter what proof is presented to them they will STILL believe that there is "developer interference". So, those who perceive that CCP "cheat" will not be convinced, ever, so what's the point in trying? So instead of assuming a reasonable person we should assume that people are idiots? If we assume that people a likely to think CCP cheat then we should also assume that people are unlikely to continue to play EVE. The safer assumption is that people themselves will hold no initial assumption and that CCP should act so as to not give them any reason to believe that there is bias in the game. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:23:00 - [64] Originally by: Cabadrin Curtailing their actions wouldn't stop rumors; some people are sore losers or jealous of other player's accomplishments and seek to accuse them of cheating or having an unfair advantage. The rumors won't stop if CCP issues a blanket statement saying "we're no longer involved in alliances." I am not advocating the action suggested by the OP, I am urging people to weigh both sides of an issue. Rumors will not stop in almost any case. It is CCP's job to give people as little reason as possible to believe in the rumors. As an example, the post sharkbait made in the BoB-ASCN thread, while perfectly appropriate to his job, was a huge mistake on this front. This is the thrust of my point. Quote: Like DBPreacher, I'm another game developer (for another MMO product) and we've had these discussions among our team. The benefits of understanding gameplay issues from a players perspective far outweigh the detriments of not playing. Agreed, but as I am sure you know its not a unilateral decision. The decision isn't to play or not play. The decision is to play, and acknowledge that this will require you to exercise more caution in preventing a negative perception of your impartiality, and not play, realizing that this still wouldn't solve all bias issues. Quote: While i appreciate the concerns, I think the advice is too drastic and would degrade the quality of CCPs expansions and support. The suggestion of the OP is too drastic. The people who completely disregard the OP's valid concern are too drastic in the other direction. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:33:00 - [65] It is fine if DEVS and GMs are in alliances. Lag and TS/Vent spies have the largest part in wierdness in fleet fights that give credit to GMs. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:36:00 - [66] The devs should play the game or else the only thing they can get ideas for balance is from that idiot convention known as the ships and modules forum In rust we trust!!!
Pinbin Valendral Caldari GalacTECH Unlimited	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:44:00 - [67] In all the other online games I have played the GM's, moderators, etc. all were allowed to play the game. It would be insane to think that someone would design a game or help run the game, and yet not be allowed to play it. How would they know what works and what doesn't? How would they know if they weren't allowed to join an alliance the difficulties blobs have during fleet battles. There are always accusations that there is biased, even in RL with diplomats as to who they have relationships with either presently or in the past. You can't fight whatever preception someone might have, if people really believe that BoB, ASCN, D2, or whatever uber alliance is succesful just because they have a moderator or GM in their ranks, then those people are just fooling themselves. Let them play and experience the fun and not fun parts of this game, it's the only way they will make it better.
Doc Punkiller Caldari Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:49:00 - [68] The replys this thread get are really informative :) Why dont ccp disclose a full list of ccp's employee that are active in an alliance ? This may be a difficult to get, but i'm sure there's some way to create it. Alliance that have ccp players inside may not have any advantages, but alliance that do not have ccp players inside do not get any advantages for sure. This is a small nuance, but it's important. disclamer: i'm not accusing anyone to get advantages of the situation in anyway, it's just about impartiality and transparance.
ProphetGuru Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:53:00 - [69] Perception. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but this leftist politicaly correct culture of worrying about everyones perception of something may be, and catering to the lowest common denominator just doesn't fly for me. As a developer CCP must insure the integrity of its product. It is in its best interest to do so. If anything, CCP should come out and say... "Yeah people that work for us have chars in all aspects of the game, and they show no bias, if you see any, report it to us immediately." Oh wait... they have done that since, hm, let me think back to the first time I was accused of exploit/h4x/griefing/being a gm... 2003? As a consumer, paying for a product, you have two options if you suspect something. Petition it to the highest levels. You had better believe CCP would take any case of this thing very seriously. Your second option is to vote with your wallet, and take that which CCP wants most out of this lil experiment of theirs... your money. As a community, the majority of you should be making a laughing stock out of anyone with the audacity to blame their lack of skill on "GMs in teh alliance" type of drivel. You don't though. You cater to it, and encourage it, and try to come up with silly rules and restrictions on a corporate entity to alleviate the "perception" of something that was based in falsehood to begin with, or created by someone too damn scared to own up to sucking at Eve. You do this because you find it impossible to conceive that (and I don't mean just BoB) someone... anyone could be better at something then you. You WANT the accusations to be true, to legitimize your inadequecies. So anyways... yeah Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Cabadrin Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:53:00 - [70] Originally by: Pinbin Valendral In all the other online games I have played the GM's, moderators, etc. all were allowed to play the game. It would be insane to think that someone would design a game or help run the game, and yet not be allowed to play it. How would they know what works and what doesn't? How would they know if they weren't allowed to join an alliance the difficulties blobs have during fleet battles. There are always accusations that there is biased, even in RL with diplomats as to who they have relationships with either presently or in the past. You'd be surprised which companies disallow employees from playing their games, precisely because of the OP's fears. The management team fears abuse will go unchecked, or developers will get personally involved with the game and resistant to necessary changes. _______________________________________________
Major Stormer Caldari Demon Womb Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:54:00 - [71] Originally by: Doc Punkiller The replys this thread get are really informative :) Why dont ccp disclose a full list of ccp's employee that are active in an alliance ? This may be a difficult to get, but i'm sure there's some way to create it. Alliance that have ccp players inside may not have any advantages, but alliance that do not have ccp players inside do not get any advantages for sure. This is a small nuance, but it's important. disclamer: i'm not accusing anyone to get advantages of the situation in anyway, it's just about impartiality and transparance. I would feel very sorry for the devs trying to play the game, but getting overrun by convos and questions about whats gonna happen. -------------------------- Above post is my opinion only and does not represent my corp/alliance.
w0rmy Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2006.10.11 21:04:00 - [72] Originally by: DB Preacher I'm a dev in another company and if I was working on an MMORPG I'd sure as hell be in the biggest and best alliances in the game on a variety of accounts as they would simply produce the best bug testing around. Its no wonder youre here, commenting on someone elses product, and not out there advertising your own. Originally by: Avon Originally by: Dark Shikari What single item is larger than a jetcan? My ego?
Kryztal Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 21:11:00 - [73] I have no problems with GM's DEV's ISD (im still grumpy about my sig btw ) or CCP's cleaning people play EvE, why you all do .. i have no idea Sig is not eve related - please see the RULES - Huitzilopochtli Tlaloc ([email protected]) BobÖ Goon Swatter - Eliminates Every Goon
ProphetGuru Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 21:27:00 - [74] Originally by: w0rmy Its no wonder youre here, commenting on someone elses product, and not out there advertising your own. DBP certainly doesn't need me to defend him... but wtf. Are you lacking in the brainpower department, or was this a really bad attempt at a flame? If the former, I kinda feel bad for you almost. If the latter, then give up forum whoring because you suck at it. Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Aceris The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.11 21:27:00 - [75] Interesting that there are so many posts from BoB diagreeing with the OP. We're not talking about people who use special magic dev powers while playing alliance characters. That sort of thing would get spotted and dealt with in short order. We're talking, about, for example, losing an expensive ship to lag and getting it reimbursed immediately. (Whereas if you don't have the contacts, you might get it reimbursed weeks or months later, or not at all). Everyone knows this goes on, and I've seen more than a little grumbling about it, across multiple less-well-connected alliances. I know for a fact that in other games, major games, far worse abuses have taken place. I know this because I was on the side benefitting, although I left once it started to affect other players outside our guild. There's really no way in which Eve is different - except that Eve is full-on pvp, so any favouritism is far more damaging to the games integrity. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of CCP employees who play the game do so in a way that is completely above board, but the history of these games tells us that there will be the occasional individual who strays out of line - maybe just a little, maybe quite a lot. It has, in fact, happened in Eve in the past. We've seen, thanks to BoB, the level of paranoia that exists on the ASCN forums on this issue. It's pretty clear that CCP have failed to avoid the perception of bias, and there's no question in my mind that it will cost them subscriptions.

Ulynidd Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.10.11 21:31:00 - [76] ISD and even the developers have been accused numerous times throughout the years we have been around to be playing favourites to certain alliances. In my case, I have been accused of favouring probably every large alliance or popular corporation at some stage throughout the years. We received complaints regarding one moderator in week, where one of our moderators was, by the end of the week, in almost every alliance there was. One of the best things about being in ISD, is that it is compromised from the playerbase. Your corporation, characters play style have no bearing in the recruitment process, this ensures we collect players from all stretches of the eve world, be that carebears (hi abdalion), ruthless murderering pirates (hi ), alliance members, non alliance members, mission runners, you name it there is an ISD from all walks of the eve existance. The same goes for the devs, exept you can be sure that devs like to experience all parts of the game, and this is what keeps it fresh and living. If you no doubt watched the EVE TV programs and tuned in for the dev interviews you would have known this already. But the next time you let your emotions get the better of you, just remember that the corp member just behind you could be a developer quietly giggling to himself when you accuse others of being a dev or GM or whatever other wild accusations get dreamt up, and believe me when we have had quite a few Ive not yet met my target to beat Abdalions 8 alliance membership in one week record yet, but its gonna happen ;) _____________________________ Ulynidd Lead Forum Moderator [ Forum Rules ]

Don ZOLA Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.11 21:35:00 - [77] imho they can watch all those battles without having to be involved in them, guess they will expirience lag anyways. either remove them all from alliances and let them move trough map by teleporting from blob to blob from battle to battle to expirience lag etc. either put same number of gms in each alliance, also same number of devs and isd so community is sure everyone has same odds. that way they could also check what each other do, ie when someone petitions alliance a for using some exploit , gm/dev from alliance b will inspect it and if there was some abuse of power proofs and problem will go on higher level and get sorted out. if community suspects that majority of "power ppl" r in one alliance (as it is suspected now) and that alliance gets blamed on daily basis by being protected by gms/devs/isd.. then its very bad for ccp. so either same share of "power ppl" to all entities ingame (thou its somewhat hard by alliances dying and new ones getting created often, but guess it could be organised) or remove them from alliances at all.

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