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Luc Daumier Gallente Contention Inc	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:10:00 - [1] I read the new sticky about the upcoming minor changes to ships and got pretty excited about it (i fly Brutix regularly and I'm really looking forward to that upcoming agility boost! \o/). Now nerdy as I am I decided to do a bit of testing on ship agility so I could quantify the changes when they get on SiSi (anything that can be measured should be). I tested 3 ships, the Thorax, the Brutix and the Megathron. And I also redid the tests with all 3 ship types fitted with a 1600mm Rolled Tungsten plate (just for fun), now this is where it gets interesting. All times posted below are averaged from 5 different measurings (with the lowest and the highest measuring thrown away). First test, ships are aligned away from the warp target and are doing >99% of max speed when warp is initiated. The times are from clicking "warp to" until the ship actually enters warp (timed with a stopwatch). - Deceleration from full speed followed by a 180 turn followed by an acceleration to warp speed. Thorax12,5 s Brutix23,0 s Mega24,9 s Thorax+1600mm13,9 s Brutix+1600mm28,8 s Mega+1600mm26,1 s So far pretty expected, the only thing that stands out is the 1600mm plated Brutix that actually does worse than a Mega with a 1600mm plate, which is just abysmal. Also the Brutix seems to have a bigger difference between the plated and the unplated times. :( The next test was conducted in the following way, ships are facing away from the warp target and are sitting pretty much still (<1m/s), otherwise the test is done in the same way (stopwatch etc.). - A 180 turn from standstill followed by an acceleration to warp speed. Thorax 9,5 s Brutix16,2 s Mega17,9 s Thorax+1600mm 9,6 s Brutix+1600mm19,3 s Mega+1600mm17,7 s Now this is very interesting! Both the Thorax and the Mega do pretty much exactly the same times both with and without a 1600mm plate (probably well within my margin of error), this seems very strange to me. The Brutix on the other hand does considerably worse with a plate than without. So to my point, is this behaviour correct? If not, what's wrong? Sould the Brutix (possibly every BC?) really behave like this? Will the upcoming agility tuning fix this? Lots of questions, so please devs (Tux ) step up and clear this up for us. ;)
Aeaus Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:12:00 - [2] The agility fix will be addressing just this problem =) Join Tharsis! - Get Sexy Sigs
Zhaine B e l l u m	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:16:00 - [3] Nice interesting post. And yes boost BC agility :) - - - - - - - - - - Quote: I don't even want a ship, ships are for carebears. Give me a fish bowl for my head (to keep space out) and smear me with lard, then armed with a toasting fork-
Imdamnugly	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:16:00 - [4] Edited by: Imdamnugly on 11/10/2006 22:16:17 Stupid alt
Ksayeni	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:18:00 - [5] Edited by: Ksayeni on 11/10/2006 22:19:08 stupid alt :)
Luc Daumier Gallente Contention Inc	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:19:00 - [6] I certainly hope so. But still it seems pretty strange, looks like acceleration (or thrust to mass ratio) is seriously borked for the Brutix for me. Then again I don't really have a deep understanding of the agility/acceleration part of the game mechanincs.
Miklas Laces A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A	Posted - 2006.10.12 10:16:00 - [7] Do you have data about acceleration from 0 to full speed, without turning ?
Hectaire Glade Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.12 13:12:00 - [8] Of course a BC is going to accelerate slower than a BS, its using a 10NM module on a ship which due to mass should warrant a 25NM booster, the 100NM BS module on the BS fits just perfect. Atleast BCs will turn quicker after the patch, now to start whinning about a 25NM AB module :)
Benco97 Gallente Fedo Appreciation Group	Posted - 2006.10.12 13:41:00 - [9] "Being high-grade combat ships the Battlecruiser class systems are honed to perfection, third-parties adding extra weight will strain your finely crafted and expertly balanced engines resulting in a loss of high end performance, doing this will lead to a voiding of your warranty. We cannot be accountable for any damage or loss of ship this may cause" hmm.. I found this message in the box my Cyclone came in... odd. Head of the Fedo Appreciation Group (FAG) and Registered Fedo breeder (Sig kindly supplied by Zurtur)
Disco Flint Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.12 13:53:00 - [10] Originally by: Benco97 "Being high-grade combat ships the Battlecruiser class systems are honed to perfection, third-parties adding extra weight will strain your finely crafted and expertly balanced engines resulting in a loss of high end performance, doing this will lead to a voiding of your warranty. We cannot be accountable for any damage or loss of ship this may cause" hmm.. I found this message in the box my Cyclone came in... odd. wait, Minmatar ships come with a warranty?
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.12 14:01:00 - [11] Originally by: Disco Flint Originally by: Benco97 "Being high-grade combat ships the Battlecruiser class systems are honed to perfection, third-parties adding extra weight will strain your finely crafted and expertly balanced engines resulting in a loss of high end performance, doing this will lead to a voiding of your warranty. We cannot be accountable for any damage or loss of ship this may cause" hmm.. I found this message in the box my Cyclone came in... odd. wait, Minmatar ships come with a warranty? meh. It won't cover rust. Only damge sustained in the first 4 lightyears. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Spanker	Posted - 2006.10.12 14:23:00 - [12] Edited by: Spanker on 12/10/2006 14:24:57 Edited by: Spanker on 12/10/2006 14:24:30 Originally by: Hectaire Glade Of course a BC is going to accelerate slower than a BS, its using a 10NM module on a ship which due to mass should warrant a 25NM booster, the 100NM BS module on the BS fits just perfect. Atleast BCs will turn quicker after the patch, now to start whinning about a 25NM AB module :) What on earth are you talking about? I can't find any mention about AB's in the original post at all. EDIT Plus it doesn't matter what size AB you use, your warp speed is a percentage of your total speed and the AB doesn't affect that. A ship with AB reaches full speed in the same time a ship without it does. - Shpank
Swamp Ziro EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.12 14:28:00 - [13] Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 12/10/2006 14:28:17 Luc, i supsect the cause to this is something similar to how Afterburners work.. Like, turning speed and acceleration are different things, contrary to what we thought, and while turning speed is directly related to agility, acceleration takes mass deviation into account too. This means that the Mega, being an average mass BS won't get a penalty there, but Brutix, which is damn huge for a cruiser, will. What do you think?
Guurzak Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.12 14:44:00 - [14] Agility factor for T1 cruisers is 0.55, for battlecruisers is 1.1, for battleships is 0.15. This factor appears to be used as a multiplier to mass for use in calculating a ship's real agility. Since the BC has the highest agility factor, it suffers more than either of the other boats from any mass increases. If we calculate "net mass" as mass * agility, we get the following values in millions of kg: Thorax: 12M .55 = 6.6M Brutix: 13.25M 1.1 = 14.575M Mega: 102.5M * 0.15 = 15.375 Thorax plated: .55 (12 + 2.75) = 8.11M Brutix plated: 1.1 (13.25 + 2.75) = 17.6M Mega plated: 0.15 (102.5 + 2.75) = 15.75 As you observed, the plated brutix is less nimble than the plated mega, because it suffers 110% of the listed mass penalty from the plate while the mega only suffers 15%. New values assuming a value of .9 for the improved BC agility: Brutix: 13.25M * 0.9 = 11.925M Brutix plated: 0.9 (13.25 + 2.75) = 14.4M Unplated, about halfway between the cruiser and BS. As you add mass, though, you're still feeling the hit: the new Brutix is nimbler than the Mega with both plated, but not by much. Put a single nano (or updated inertial stab) on the Mega and you're nimbler than the Brutix again.
Guurzak Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.12 14:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Spanker Plus it doesn't matter what size AB you use, your warp speed is a percentage of your total speed and the AB doesn't affect that. A ship with AB reaches full speed in the same time a ship without it does. This is not correct, because the afterburner applies a mass penalty. A ship with AB reaches full speed slower than a ship without AB... albeit, a much higher full speed.
Ksayeni	Posted - 2006.10.12 21:58:00 - [16] Edited by: Ksayeni on 12/10/2006 21:58:26 stupid alt
Luc Daumier Gallente Contention Inc	Posted - 2006.10.12 22:00:00 - [17] Originally by: Guurzak Agility factor for T1 cruisers is 0.55, for battlecruisers is 1.1, for battleships is 0.15. This factor appears to be used as a multiplier to mass for use in calculating a ship's real agility. Since the BC has the highest agility factor, it suffers more than either of the other boats from any mass increases. If we calculate "net mass" as mass * agility, we get the following values in millions of kg: Thorax: 12M .55 = 6.6M Brutix: 13.25M 1.1 = 14.575M Mega: 102.5M * 0.15 = 15.375 Thorax plated: .55 (12 + 2.75) = 8.11M Brutix plated: 1.1 (13.25 + 2.75) = 17.6M Mega plated: 0.15 (102.5 + 2.75) = 15.75 As you observed, the plated brutix is less nimble than the plated mega, because it suffers 110% of the listed mass penalty from the plate while the mega only suffers 15%. New values assuming a value of .9 for the improved BC agility: Brutix: 13.25M * 0.9 = 11.925M Brutix plated: 0.9 (13.25 + 2.75) = 14.4M Unplated, about halfway between the cruiser and BS. As you add mass, though, you're still feeling the hit: the new Brutix is nimbler than the Mega with both plated, but not by much. Put a single nano (or updated inertial stab) on the Mega and you're nimbler than the Brutix again. Excellent post m8, thanks for that. This seems seriously f**ked up imho, the Thorax weighing almost as much as a Brutix is _way_ more agile. With such a high agility factor the effect is that the Brutix propulsion system is seriously underpowered. :( A quick reply to anyone talking about afterburners, I did _not_ use an afterburner (or any other propulsion modules) in these tests. The ships were using their regular propulsion to accelerate to warp speed.
Guurzak Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.13 00:39:00 - [18] Yep. The higher modifier on battlecruisers means that adding a plate hits them harder than it does on either cruisers or battleships... and adding an AB or MWD hits them MUCH harder, a 10mn propulsion mod has a 5M kg mass penalty, much worse than the hit for a 1600mm plate.
Acerus Malum Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.13 01:39:00 - [19] Originally by: Guurzak Originally by: Spanker Plus it doesn't matter what size AB you use, your warp speed is a percentage of your total speed and the AB doesn't affect that. A ship with AB reaches full speed in the same time a ship without it does. This is not correct, because the afterburner applies a mass penalty. A ship with AB reaches full speed slower than a ship without AB... albeit, a much higher full speed. I'm wondering if this this has been confirmed in game or not. If you look at the stats of a propulsion mod, a 10 meganewton afterburner is listed as having 15,000,000 N of thrust. I can only assume that this is to compensate for the 5M kg added to the mass of the ship. Yes? No?
Lazy8s	Posted - 2006.10.13 02:49:00 - [20] Edited by: Lazy8s on 13/10/2006 02:51:18 Edited by: Lazy8s on 13/10/2006 02:49:43 I've aid it before and I'll say it again, CCP talks about being "realistic" about stuff but they totally missed any sort of realism on the battlecruiser. A quick watch on the history of navies on the history channel and you'll know enough to figure it out. Frigs: Fast, small damage. Cruisers: Mobile weapons ships They are larger than frigs and vulnerable to battleship fire but they hit much harder than frigates. The bread and butter of a navy until the invention of battlecruisers. Battlecruisers: CRUISER SIZED SHIPS!!! They have the speed and size of the cruiser but they fit battleship weapons. ZOMYGODZOR OVERPOWERED you say? Well, yes and no. They were the staple of navies for a good reason. They were one of the most strategically powerful ships in existance. Now, are they cruiser sized battleships? Heck no. They have the armor and speed of a cruiser but the weapons of a battleship.....just much, much less of them. They are not meant to replace battleships. Think fitting 3 cruise launchers on a caracal and you've got what a battlecruiser really is. The problem is they are vulnerable to frigates since the large weapons make frigates hard targets, but get a couple or 3 and they are better than a battleship due to mobility. Battleship: Vulnerable to cruisers and frigates due to their mobility, but they have the pwnsauce guns and lots of them. A typical layout of a fleet (obviously I am not a navy admiral so we'll have to trust discovery channel on this one) is 1-2BSs, 4-5BCs, 2-3cruisers, 3-4frigates. "In most cases, the temptation to add extra big guns to the main fleet proved hard to resist. As a result, battlecruiser squadrons were added to the line of battle ù a role for which they were not designed and one that exposed them to great risk. The armour on a battlecruiser remained that of (or slightly more than) a normal cruiser. Thus the ships could dish out a lot more punishment than they could absorb." Interresting read. Obviously ignore the part where battlecruisers were rendered obsolete because modern day battleships are faster than cruisers, that will never happen in Eve for the obvious reasons. :p http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlecruiser There are better write-ups but wikipedia is easy and I'm lazy. If you really want to know feel free to look it up. ;)null
Spanker	Posted - 2006.10.13 07:09:00 - [21] Originally by: Guurzak Originally by: Spanker Plus it doesn't matter what size AB you use, your warp speed is a percentage of your total speed and the AB doesn't affect that. A ship with AB reaches full speed in the same time a ship without it does. This is not correct, because the afterburner applies a mass penalty. A ship with AB reaches full speed slower than a ship without AB... albeit, a much higher full speed. Bump because this is a good thread. I would have thought the mass penalty dictates how much of the velocity bonus is applied to your ship, not the time it takes to get to full speed. To get your ship to reach top speed faster or slower than its base value you need to modify its agilty with nanos or implants etc. This is all off the top of my head though, as soon as I get home from work I'm testing this. Or if someone else can give a second opinion? - Shpank
CptEagle Gallente Stargate Command...	Posted - 2006.10.13 07:22:00 - [22] Thats like carying a 5 ton concrete block on a car and on a big truck, offcourse the big truck will be less impacted coz it is build to handle big mass's. But it'll be better after some patch that will be deployed Soon (TM).
Wealthbuilder	Posted - 2006.10.13 08:09:00 - [23] It would be interesting to see the test if the brutix was equipped with a 800 plate. The amount of armor will be less, but the 1600 is a BS plate afterall. For me the BC is closer to cruiser, so a 1600 on it is 'overplating'. I can't fly the Brutix myself, but the Ferox isn't any better in agility The changes will improve them, but they will probably suffer from overplating more than other ship anyway. I think this is a nice thing. Choose more agility or more armor. just my 0,2 cent
Spanker	Posted - 2006.10.13 08:20:00 - [24] Edited by: Spanker on 13/10/2006 08:21:29 Originally by: CptEagle Thats like carying a 5 ton concrete block on a car and on a big truck, offcourse the big truck will be less impacted coz it is build to handle big mass's In that case we should be seing more of a difference on the Thorax. As it is in his tests, your 5 ton concrete block is slowing the bigger Brutix down more (realitive to its base acceleration) than it is the Thorax. And that's what's buggered here imo. - Shpank
Luc Daumier Gallente Contention Inc	Posted - 2006.10.13 08:57:00 - [25] Originally by: Spanker In that case we should be seing more of a difference on the Thorax. As it is in his tests, your 5 ton concrete block is slowing the bigger Brutix down more (realitive to its base acceleration) than it is the Thorax. And that's what's buggered here imo. Exactly, and that is just silly.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.13 09:10:00 - [26] Originally by: Guurzak New values assuming a value of .9 for the improved BC agility: Brutix: 13.25M * 0.9 = 11.925M Brutix plated: 0.9 (13.25 + 2.75) = 14.4M Well, the fix was 20% increased agility, so I'd assume that means a factor of 0.8, which would land battlecruiser agility neatly between battleship and cruiser agility. Thorax factor: 6.6 .8 Brutix factor: 11.6 Megathron factor: 15.375 Well... almost neatly between. Rather more like the ratio between Battleship sig radius and Battlecruiser sig radius (0.75), something which incidentally is a bit on the fat side for battlecruisers, still. - Three years old
Julio Torres	Posted - 2006.10.13 10:42:00 - [27] Isnt there also a Propulsion Strenght stat on ships?
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.13 10:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Acerus Malum Originally by: Guurzak Originally by: Spanker Plus it doesn't matter what size AB you use, your warp speed is a percentage of your total speed and the AB doesn't affect that. A ship with AB reaches full speed in the same time a ship without it does. This is not correct, because the afterburner applies a mass penalty. A ship with AB reaches full speed slower than a ship without AB... albeit, a much higher full speed. I'm wondering if this this has been confirmed in game or not. If you look at the stats of a propulsion mod, a 10 meganewton afterburner is listed as having 15,000,000 N of thrust. I can only assume that this is to compensate for the 5M kg added to the mass of the ship. Yes? No? It will acc slightly slower with AB/MWD. Not considering changes to agility a ship will always take the same time to reach X % of top speed no matter what the top speed are. But as you said above an AB/MWD give a mass increase which in turn decrease agility (agility = mass * agility mass modifier). The thrust value only matters then calculating top speed, and it's the ship mass + penalty mass the thrust need to push, not just the penalty mass.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.13 10:44:00 - [29] Originally by: Julio Torres Isnt there also a Propulsion Strenght stat on ships? That value is not used for anything atm, was part of a change to warp scramblers (making them work similar to ECM) but that change was scrapped.
Guurzak Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.13 12:25:00 - [30] Originally by: Ithildin Well, the fix was 20% increased agility, so I'd assume that means a factor of 0.8 If current agility were 1.0, then the modified agility would obviously be 0.8. However, current agility is actually 1.1. If we simply subtract 0.2 from that, we get .9; if we multiply 1.1 by 0.8, we get 0.88 which we may as well round to 0.9 anyway.

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