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bldyannoyed Standard Operations Building Services Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.13 11:16:00 - [1] Before i start please note this isnt a moan about the Hyperion. I won't hide the fact that i dont like its current proposed boni ( 7.5% armour rep amount and 5% damage ) but the point of this thread is to see what people think a blaster ship needs. I'm gonna start with what i think are the pros and cons of the current blasterthron: PROS -Double weapon boni = high DPS -Large drone bay = High DPS or versatility ( web drones, ewar drones etc) -Good tank with Ions and Dual LAR II CONS -No tank with Neutrons -Cap issues when running blasters -Slow and heavy -Serious CPU issues running T2 weaponry and mods Of the cons i listed only one is a drawback ( Slow and heavy) the rest are legitimate balances. Theres no way you should be able to fit a decent tank AND run neutron blasters. As it is a BlasterT does more dps than anything in the game and is close to the perfect 1v1 BS. So really it seems to me that the only way the Hyperion can get any better than the Mega is to be much more agile. The nature of blasters means that with 8 turrets it cant really fail to do reasonable damage, and as already stated a Mega can run a Dual LARII tank with Ions. The only way to make a Hype beat it with a setup like that would be to have it run a Dual LARII tank with NEUTRONS, where its boni and bigger guns give it better DPS and a better tank. By that reasoning its just a bigger Mega, and forgive me if im wrong but i thought the Tier3's were supposed to have their own defined role, not just be a bigger version of the tier2's. And now i get to the point. If i was dev for a day these are the stats i would give a Hyperion, assuming it doesnt get an extra slot on the Mega. 8/5/6/ slot layout 4000 shield 4000 armour 11000 hull 10% Mass reduction per level 5% to hull resists per level Base speed similar to a Typhoon Fitting sufficient to allow ( with V.High skills ) 8 NeutronII's and an MWD with change for the rest, but not enuff to put a couple of LARII's in . As u see, no damage bonus, so compared to a Mega it will do less DPS, but most of you can probably already see where i'm going with a potential fitting. Damage Control, Damage mods, possibly inertia stabs/nanos/reinforced bulkheads Basically a high speed paper thin ( compared to the other tier3's) run and gun thrill wagon. It should probably be a Minnie ship tbh but they appear to have been lumbered with Maelstrom. Anyways, they are my ideas, please post your own or flame mine, whatever.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.13 11:33:00 - [2] Mass reduction YES.. Hull resistance LMAO, u aint serious with that or? Blasterboat needs DMG bonus or even an apoc could fit blasters and do the same thing better, the second bonus is debetable, atm, a mass reduction bonus would be better than a rep bonus for the ship to be unique and not just a better megathron!
Adamantium Beam	Posted - 2006.10.13 11:58:00 - [3] 8 Neutron, MWD, Cap Injector "Damn, no more PG for a rep!" "It's not a problem boy, use a Medium Hull Repairer to out tank a rookie ship"
mama guru Gallente Friendship 7 Corporation YouWhat	Posted - 2006.10.13 12:04:00 - [4] Edited by: mama guru on 13/10/2006 12:05:15 From what i remeber from the Dev blod about the tier 3 bs's, this ship would get a bonus to cap when fitting mwd and a damage bonus. It would already have a higher then average cap for a bs, but less recharge. But i could swap the mwd bonus for an armor rep bonus. It was said that it was going to be lighter and faster then most Bs's due to it being designed as a close range ship. And imo that is all i need for a blasterboat. so a mass bonus is most likely out of the question. And this is also how i would like to have the ship, damage bonus and an armor rep bonus. Getting extra cap and an mwd bonus would also be nice, so it doesn't really matter to me. -space reserved for some cool looking non political image-
without	Posted - 2006.10.13 12:08:00 - [5] not a good idea on the BS class the reason is every mofo and his sun will be hitting you anyway [with your mwd running you going to have 1000+ sig!] tbh i think its terrible. less dps than mega by far [since it getting less drone bay iirc and with ur no 5% dmg bonous] less tank. id like to see one of these 5% to hybrids +5HP/sec to structure [25rep to structure per sec at lvl 5] [just to compaire a small t2 rep gets 17.78 HP a sec so less than a medium rep but more than a small rep] 5% to hybrids +100% to AB speed inc per level [in effect at lvl 5 turning a AB into a MWD, and AB has less cap use, and does give u the sig penalty nor the cap penalty]
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.13 12:14:00 - [6] personally i'd give it wicked bonus... like 20% ew immunity / lvl secondary bonus: 20% less cap use /lvl :P Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.13 12:24:00 - [7] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 13/10/2006 12:28:55 Originally by: bldyannoyed ... Of the cons i listed only one is a drawback ( Slow and heavy) the rest are legitimate balances. Theres no way you should be able to fit a decent tank AND run neutron blasters. As it is a BlasterT does more dps than anything in the game and is close to the perfect 1v1 BS. So really it seems to me that the only way the Hyperion can get any better than the Mega is to be much more agile. ... You'll find being big and heavy is a legitimate balance thing to. Blasters are max daamge so short range, making it easy to get into that short range totally removes that balance. Please get this out of your head, and I hope Tux pays no attention to it. As you said you just designed a minny ship not a gallente. If you want a quick ship fly minmatar. Quick ship + blasters? Wheres the penalty of short range blasters gone!?! Not a balanced idea. With regards to it being "paper thin". 11k hp on structure is not paper thin even if you sacrifice 1k to 2k on shields/armour. 25% resists and with a t1 mod that adds 50% gives you about 60-70% resists from just 1 module... thats leaving lots of space for plates/damage mods/ew... and with nearly 20k effective hp on just one level... mmm passive tank + neutron 4tw ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.13 12:51:00 - [8] If I had a say, I would give it a very low mass, smaller sig and relatively high speed to begin with, and the following bonuses: 10% per level to Afterburner Speed 5% per level to Large Hybrid damage And fittings to not nearly allow uber gank with uber tank. No more problem with Station-sized signatures while going fast, not so much cap wasted on speed, but a ***** to fit. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Miklas Laces A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A	Posted - 2006.10.13 13:09:00 - [9] Edited by: Miklas Laces on 13/10/2006 13:09:34 Things I like about the Hyperion: - Bigger capacitor size but slower recharge rate, very well thought - Eight turret hardpoints - Limited target range, it's ok - Damage bonus - Lighter and faster than Mega The second bonus thing... a few things I'd like: SPEED/AGILITY: a bonus that helps the ship getting in range faster DAMAGE: either a damage, tracking or signature resolution bonus to heavy blasters DEFENCE: armor resistances, signature radius or sensor strength bonus to the ship
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.13 13:14:00 - [10] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 13/10/2006 13:13:53 Well the last iteration of the Hyperion from the db we saw was 16,500 grid with an 8/6/6 configuration and 75m^3 drone bay - which would make it different to the Megathron, but not necessarily better (certainly not in DPS terms) ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Waxau Liberty Rogues Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2006.10.13 13:50:00 - [11] ill agree with everything so i dont troll. Ps - its bonuses, not boni
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.13 13:57:00 - [12] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 13/10/2006 13:58:50 You know, the ONLY disadvantage of blasterboats are that they are slower and heavier than autocannon boats. The cap use can be fixed with cap injectors, the no tank + gank can be fixed with cpu implants... there has to be a limit to what the gallente pwnmobiles can do in this game. They have to have weaknesses. That is, if you are interested in game balance. If you are not, well, carry on... I think it really sucks that the minmatar trademark of speed and agility are being discussed for the gallente blasterboats. If you want to be fast and agile, you should have to sacrifice tank and firepower to do it, just like the Tempest does. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
bldyannoyed Standard Operations Building Services Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.13 14:03:00 - [13] Um, no Jim. NO amount of cpu implants will allow u to fit 7 NeutronII's and even a single LAR tank. Maybe my ideas weren't clear. I deliberately gave it less DPS than a Mega so that it could go faster than a Mega. I realy REALLY hate the idea of it just being a better Mega, which the increased DPS, increased tank, increased cap and increased speed currently makes it. Its just a Blasterthron, but better in almost every single way. There has to be a trade-off somewhere.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.13 14:11:00 - [14] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 13/10/2006 14:14:28 Originally by: bldyannoyed Um, no Jim. NO amount of cpu implants will allow u to fit 7 NeutronII's and even a single LAR tank. Maybe my ideas weren't clear. I deliberately gave it less DPS than a Mega so that it could go faster than a Mega. I realy REALLY hate the idea of it just being a better Mega, which the increased DPS, increased tank, increased cap and increased speed currently makes it. Its just a Blasterthron, but better in almost every single way. There has to be a trade-off somewhere. Yeah. I like the part where you wrote "should have been given to the minnies" in the original post btw... thats how I feel too. Even with your suggestion, 10% mass reduction per level would cut its mass in half and make it much, much faster than the Tempest. You might not have room for a tank if you fit Neutron II's, but what if you fit the least powerful guns (like us minnies often have to do) and a tank? Then the damage of the blasters will still be higher than autocannons, you will have a nice tank, you will accelerate faster than any other battleship out there including Tempest and Typhoon, and on top of it all you will have alot of structure hitpoints. I understand what you want here, but from a game balancing point of view, I think it sounds very dangerous. The blasterthron is currently a pwnmobile, and even though your suggestions doesnt make the Hyperion better than the Mega, it will still be enough to kill the minmatar battleships quite easily. Look at it this way... what advantages will the Tempest have over your suggested Hyperion here? Dont say "no cap use", because the ship have less capacitator to start with, and cant really tank blaster damage once its in range. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Slan Traveller SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2006.10.13 14:12:00 - [15] I'm intrigued, as to why the Hyperion is planned to get a 'hidden' 3rd bonus of extra low mass and better agility, while the Maelstroem comes prenerfed with extra sluggishness and weight for a Minmatar ship. We better see serious differences in grid/stats/cap to warrant this. Sic parvis magna
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.13 14:21:00 - [16] Originally by: Slan Traveller I'm intrigued, as to why the Hyperion is planned to get a 'hidden' 3rd bonus of extra low mass and better agility, while the Maelstroem comes prenerfed with extra sluggishness and weight for a Minmatar ship. We better see serious differences in grid/stats/cap to warrant this. I hate to make posts about this every day (so I will try to stop - seriously), but Tuxford seems to have the opinion that blasterboats should pwn everything within 20k easily. Too bad most of the combat is done in that range due to warp disruptor range, isnt it... Im tired of it and im having a hard time not showing my frustration, specially when he borrows useless bonuses from frigging Caldari and give it to minmatar... But fine, if he wants to make the game that way, I guess I have to live with it. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Nebuli Caldari Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.10.13 14:57:00 - [17] Realy dont know WHY we need another blaster BS, the mega works fine. What we need is more viable fleet EW ships imo, the Hype should be a big celestis imo. Gal, Vexor -> Domi, Rax -> Mega Celestis -> Hype Caldari, Blackbird -> Scorp Moa -> Rohk Caracal -> Raven Caldari was placed to show how it works with them, and why their ship set up is going to be the most rounded, with the biggest variation, and this realy is how the Gal ships should go, with the Hype being ANOTHER blastership it just throws it all out of whack. Amarr should have a larger Arbi imo, Min I'm not sure about, as following the cruiser designs it would be a target painting ship CEO - Art of War
Sugintou	Posted - 2006.10.13 15:09:00 - [18] I agree. The Megathron is already our "blasterboat" I can see the Hyperion going the path of the Brutix, keeping the 7.5% armor repper bonus, and the 5% large hybrid guns. That'd be a tough ship, and it'd fit a role we don't have. The Domi can fit a decent tank, yeah, but the Mega's usual setups are pretty paper-thin, in favor of the full gank fitting. If the Hyperion kept the Armor repairer bonus, then it's be a really tough boat, able to dish out tons of pain, while being very hard to kill. (Personally, I'd never fly one, because I shield tank my Gallente ships) But I still think it'd be better then having two blasterboats.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.13 15:14:00 - [19] Personally I don't agree with the whole æmust follow theÆ Frigate -> Cruiser -> Battleship progression. Why bother having a cruiser performing a role if a Battleship can do it better? Keep things diverse; the support role in the hands of cruisers/recons (personally I also think pigeon-holing the Scorpion into an EW role was a mistake) and the firepower (yes that means another blaster ship for Gallente) in the hands of the Battleships. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.13 15:45:00 - [20] Originally by: Adamantium Beam 8 Neutron, MWD, Cap Injector "Damn, no more PG for a rep!" "It's not a problem boy, use a Medium Hull Repairer to out tank a rookie ship" Ah, a MegaT with an extra turret hardpoint and no tracking bonus! YAY! --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Opai McTwist Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.10.13 16:20:00 - [21] Honestly, I hadn't considered it until today, but the Afterburner bonus makes the most sense out of everything I've seen talked about for the Hype. Think: DMG bonus = almost necessary for a blasterboat Tracking bonus = would be VERY nice, but Mega has it TANK bonus = Fun, but it strikes me as anti-agility, on a conceptual level, and not in the spirit of the Hype EW Bonus = #1 Already can be handled by a Domi #2 I for one think a BS progression of the Celestis/Tristam ship role is coming as a Tier 4 BS for the gals. Power or CPU bonus = too generic, and easily transformed into a different kind of ship, not blasterboat specific... I'm sure there are reasons why so many other bonuses are just so prohibitive to add to a blaster boat. And the enat thing about an afterburner bonus is, #1 no huge cap hit = more cap for blasters, #2 no huge PG hit = more room for blasters, #3 Afterburners aren't that fast, ergo, not that overpowering. If a BS ship bonus that, at lvl 5, allows a 100mn AB make as much speed as a MWD or slightly less doesn't sound that overbalancing... Has the Afterburner as a bonus been talked out to death? Just wondering...
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.13 16:38:00 - [22] I said once that if people want a blasterboat that does the job (kill him before he kills you), it should be a RoF + dmg bonus. why? because like that, even with cap charges, it gets unsustainable after some time, considering how heavy the blaster cap consumption is. ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
LaCoHa Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.13 16:41:00 - [23] Yes I agree.. the AB bonus makes the most sense. Lets face it - the sig radius boost from an active MWD is just too much for a BS to bear (bare, bair>??)
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.13 16:57:00 - [24] Originally by: bldyannoyed CONS -No tank with Neutrons Guess you dont know how to fit a neutron mega. Properly fitted, they will beat any battleship that doesnt have some nuts faction tank. And it WONT have -that- bad of cap issues. Think outside the box, think how short your engagements will be and fit according to that.
Opai McTwist Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.10.13 16:57:00 - [25] Grimm, ROF + DMG + X = DamageBoat... Where X can equeal Rails or Blasters... now I'm not saying make the DMG bonus blaster specific, and yes, ROF + DMG bonus WOULD be a sweet Blasterboat. I was thinking if the Devs are aiming for a "pure" blasterboat, (iirc, Tux said so in the Dev blogs on the topic) then wouldn't the AB make for a more blasterboat specific bonus portfolio? Imagine the Hype, sitting there, DMG and ROF bonus, with T2 snipe gear... essentially, it would be another flavor of Megathron. Both would be able to use their bonuses for either close-range or sniping. As much fun as that would be, I don't think that's what the Devs are aiming for with the Hype. Just my 2 iskies.
fkingfurious	Posted - 2006.10.13 17:11:00 - [26] Edited by: fkingfurious on 13/10/2006 17:11:59 dumb alt post
bldyannoyed Standard Operations Building Services Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.13 17:12:00 - [27] Originally by: Tasty Burger Guess you dont know how to fit a neutron mega. Properly fitted, they will beat any battleship that doesnt have some nuts faction tank. And it WONT have -that- bad of cap issues. Think outside the box, think how short your engagements will be and fit according to that. Iknow exactly how to fit a Neitron Thron. Couple of plates and a shed load of damage mods. Not exactly a tank tho is it. And anyway, if u read the rest u'd know that i think a no tank Neutron Boat is perfectly balanced. Reading the rest, i like the idea of an EWAR boat, or an AB bonus. Pretty much anything that can get away from the rep bonus. As i hinted at in my originalk post, i think the Mega makes a fantastic blaster boat. A BS with more DPS and durability than a BlaterT is silly, so i want a way of making the tier 3BS do something else. The current Hype is a bigger, tuffer, faster Mega. Nothing new, nothing clever.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.13 17:16:00 - [28] Originally by: Opai McTwist Grimm, ROF + DMG + X = DamageBoat... Where X can equeal Rails or Blasters... now I'm not saying make the DMG bonus blaster specific, and yes, ROF + DMG bonus WOULD be a sweet Blasterboat. I was thinking if the Devs are aiming for a "pure" blasterboat, (iirc, Tux said so in the Dev blogs on the topic) then wouldn't the AB make for a more blasterboat specific bonus portfolio? Imagine the Hype, sitting there, DMG and ROF bonus, with T2 snipe gear... essentially, it would be another flavor of Megathron. Both would be able to use their bonuses for either close-range or sniping. As much fun as that would be, I don't think that's what the Devs are aiming for with the Hype. Just my 2 iskies. if you notice on the old devblogs, tux specifically said that the hype would have a very low targeting range for a BS (think he said 60km or lower?) ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
without	Posted - 2006.10.13 17:16:00 - [29] i repete in order of what id like +5% dmg +10HP/s to structure per level OR +5% dmg +xyz% to AB speed increase [in effect the boost would give you mwd speed at lvl 5] OR +5% dmg -20% to size of cap booster charges in ship or injector per lvl [giving you a heavy inj with 20 800s and cargo with lots of spare] OR 5% ROF 5% tracking
without	Posted - 2006.10.13 17:33:00 - [30] Originally by: Grimpak if you notice on the old devblogs, tux specifically said that the hype would have a very low targeting range for a BS (think he said 60km or lower?) does not matter 60km * 1.25 [skils] * 1.6^3 = 307km if it had 50km base: 501.251.6^3 = 256km if it had 40km base: 401.251.6^3 = 205km so even if it had 40km base [very very unlikely, would be higher] it can get 200km+ with 3 sensor boosters which is more than enough!

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