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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2006.10.19 05:18:00 -
[91]
I like these ideas. I'm still uncertain about the new 0.0 proposals, but I'm starting to think you might be right about those too.
One thing I can see happening would be alliances hiring pirates so that they could still have neutrals blown up even in areas they didn't have sovereignty. Which would be cool, as it'd be real privateering.
OTOH, maybe they'd just develop alt corps for the same purpose. Alts really just screw this game up in so many ways. 
Anyway, I think the 0.0 proposals need more development and troubleshooting, but I hope CCP has noticed them. Two thumps up on everything else, for sure, imho.
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In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Kitana Bane
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Posted - 2006.10.19 11:02:00 -
[92]
Well Livewire - you have my vote.
Its a bold idea that might make things veeeeery interesting.
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Je'hira Osiris
Minmatar
Knights of Chaos
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Posted - 2006.10.19 13:44:00 -
[93]
It is quite simple...
the auto bountys i agree with the rest of what u have said is soo far beyond rubbish i dont know where to start.
You say in one breath that you want to make life hard from pirates and easy for hunter and then in the next you say that there are not enough pirates about. simple Make life easier for pirates and more ppl will turn that way...
I for see that with salvage ships pirating will be take on by more characters.
If ppl can hunt pirates with the way the game is at the moment then they have not be playing long enuf..
pirates give fear to low sec and interest to hundreads in the eve game hows about makeing it more interesting rather than trying to make our lives harder....
Respect can be found for your enemy.... its jus a case of how hard you wanna look...
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Futher Bezluden
Minmatar
Red Dwarf Mining Corps
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.10.19 15:13:00 -
[94]
To the Original Poster..
/Signed.
A lot of people will have issue with taking sec hits in 0.0, but these are the same who are +5 from ratting the 95% of the time they aren't shooting others. Maybe half the normal sec penalty for shooting a non-war target in 0.0.
THUKKER
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Dark PIne
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Posted - 2006.10.19 15:32:00 -
[95]
I like your ideas, Lifewire.
I'd suggest following tweak to insurance/auto bounty:
The pilot/gang blowing up a pirate vessel would get an automatic bounty based on the insurance of the pirate ship and the pirate's sec level. For example, a pirate is flying a fully insured battleship that gives 100mil if blown up. Depending on the pirate's sec rating the pirate will receive a percentage of the full insurance, and the rest will be "CONCORD auto bounty":
pirate's sec rating / pirate's insurance payout / auto bounty for whoever blows up pirate's ship
0 / 100mil / 0mil
-1 / 95mil / 5mil
-5 / 75mil / 25mil
-7.5 / 62.5mil / 37.5mil
-9.9 / 50mil / 50mil
This way bounty hunters would get something from each pirate ship blown up, pirates would have insurance, ISK would not be generated no more than with the current system, and it would not be exploitable (any more than today).
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Darius Falc
Gallente
Corsets and Carebears
Whips and Chains
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Posted - 2006.10.19 16:07:00 -
[96]
 Originally by: Lifewire
I think we can all agree on piracy should be the hardest proffession. At the moment piratehunting is the hardest because they are no good bountys and those are payed on the pod.
Somebody said here, everybody will become piratehunter if these changes that i propose would happen. This would not be bad for the game - actually the lack of bountyhunters caused that CCP had to implement sentry guns and Concord (NPC-elements) that fullfill the role of bountyhunters. Lets say we would have 40K bountyhunters in the game - those would replace another NPC element - perfect!
I'm sorry but I just don't buy this. I have over 350 kills to my name and around 20 deaths. If you look at my deaths...all but two of them are to anti-pirate gangs. I spend alot of time as a solo pirate, if an anti-pirate gang turns up I have to go deep safe or try another system because there is no way I'm going to drop 10 ships.
Piracy already is the hardest profession because:
- We can't enter high sec
- We can be killed anywhere
- There are less of us
- anti-pirates almost always go around in large gank squads
- It's very difficult as a pirate to make enough money to offset ship losses (you have to be good and get some good kills)
Whilst I think the bounty ideas are interesting I think they'll just achieve more and larger anti-pirate gank squads and less people willing to take up this rather unorthodox Eve lifestyle.
DF.
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Lifewire
Caldari
TunDraGon
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Posted - 2006.10.20 11:26:00 -
[97]
Quote:
I'm sorry but I just don't buy this. I have over 350 kills to my name and around 20 deaths. If you look at my deaths...all but two of them are to anti-pirate gangs. I spend alot of time as a solo pirate, if an anti-pirate gang turns up I have to go deep safe or try another system because there is no way I'm going to drop 10 ships.
Piracy already is the hardest profession because:
- We can't enter high sec
- We can be killed anywhere
- There are less of us
- anti-pirates almost always go around in large gank squads
- It's very difficult as a pirate to make enough money to offset ship losses (you have to be good and get some good kills)
Whilst I think the bounty ideas are interesting I think they'll just achieve more and larger anti-pirate gank squads and less people willing to take up this rather unorthodox Eve lifestyle.
You are absolutly right - but you come to the wrong conclusion. You said you destroyed 350 ships and lost 20. This allready shows the large advantadge you have: while piratehunters have to search for a pirate, you can attack whatever you see.
I agree that piracy is not easy, but true piratehunting is simply impossible. I say "true piratehunting" because i do not talk about PVE-players that sometimes sink a pirate. I talk of full-time-piratehunters like i am a full-time-pirate. Nobody in EVE can make a living with the actual bountys - that is a fact.
Since the bounty payout like i proposed will be a lot of ISK, why should a piratehunter want to share it with 20-30 others in his gang????? Check this: if you have 300 mil on your head, why should a piratehunter want to share this money with others? He might share with 1-2 others, but the 20 vs 1 antipirateattacks will be history.
Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/
Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips
Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
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Darius Falc
Gallente
Corsets and Carebears
Whips and Chains
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Posted - 2006.10.20 12:29:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Lifewire
Quote:
I'm sorry but I just don't buy this. I have over 350 kills to my name and around 20 deaths. If you look at my deaths...all but two of them are to anti-pirate gangs. I spend alot of time as a solo pirate, if an anti-pirate gang turns up I have to go deep safe or try another system because there is no way I'm going to drop 10 ships.
Piracy already is the hardest profession because:
- We can't enter high sec
- We can be killed anywhere
- There are less of us
- anti-pirates almost always go around in large gank squads
- It's very difficult as a pirate to make enough money to offset ship losses (you have to be good and get some good kills)
Whilst I think the bounty ideas are interesting I think they'll just achieve more and larger anti-pirate gank squads and less people willing to take up this rather unorthodox Eve lifestyle.
You are absolutly right - but you come to the wrong conclusion. You said you destroyed 350 ships and lost 20. This allready shows the large advantadge you have: while piratehunters have to search for a pirate, you can attack whatever you see.
I agree that piracy is not easy, but true piratehunting is simply impossible. I say "true piratehunting" because i do not talk about PVE-players that sometimes sink a pirate. I talk of full-time-piratehunters like i am a full-time-pirate. Nobody in EVE can make a living with the actual bountys - that is a fact.
Since the bounty payout like i proposed will be a lot of ISK, why should a piratehunter want to share it with 20-30 others in his gang????? Check this: if you have 300 mil on your head, why should a piratehunter want to share this money with others? He might share with 1-2 others, but the 20 vs 1 antipirateattacks will be history.
Hey Tundragon...A fair point about trying to actually hunt a pirate but I'm not sure the conclusion that pirating is easier because of my kill ratio is the right one either. I kill alot of ships because I spend 100% of my time doing PVP, my ship, skills and ability are all as optimised as I can make them in that direction.
I think from one point of view though you're right...pirates are hard to kill largely because of the above and hard to find, largely because of the above. This gives anti-pirates a hard time. We're good at running away so we can live to fight another day if we have to.
However, I don't agree with your assertion that this will lead to less ganking. Imagine the scenario....10 two month old players get together and say to themselves...."if we go after a dangerous pirate with 10 of us we'll probably get him and that will be 30 mill a piece...not bad for an evening's work"...and what's more...they're probably right...it doesn't matter how old you are or what ship you're in (with the exception of a carrier or dreadnought) if 10 cruisers come after you you're probably going down if they have themselves planned reasonably well.
this will lead to more ganking and worse still it'll lead more n00bs into ganking. I'd still be a pirate but these changes would make it close to impossible for me to make a profit I suspect.
DF
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Lifewire
Caldari
TunDraGon
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Posted - 2006.10.20 12:57:00 -
[99]
But if 10 new players in cruiser hunt you, then this is good!!! They bring fun to you! As experienced pirate youŠll probably sink 1 or 2 of them or you will have to evade them.
However - high bountys will help to bring the gangsizes of piratehunters down, since they dont want to share the bounty with 20 others.
Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/
Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips
Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
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Darius Falc
Gallente
Corsets and Carebears
Whips and Chains
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Posted - 2006.10.20 13:59:00 -
[100]
I hear you....I'm not sure that you're right and I'm not sure I'd want to find out if you're wrong. Although I agree in principle that the current bounty system needs revision.
DF.
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Arcus Dei
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Posted - 2006.10.20 16:50:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Arcus Dei on 20/10/2006 16:51:27
Originally by: Lifewire
But if 10 new players in cruiser hunt you, then this is good!!! They bring fun to you! As experienced pirate youŠll probably sink 1 or 2 of them or you will have to evade them.
However - high bountys will help to bring the gangsizes of piratehunters down, since they dont want to share the bounty with 20 others.
I must be having a thicko day but I find the logic in this spurious.
As has been mentioned on several occasions in this thread, the bottom line is Risk -v- Reward.
Surely, piratehunters would be more willing to hunt down high bounty pirates in big groups as the bounty split would be more per head & the individual risk is lessened. There's a reason why certain pirates have a large bounty on their heads. You don't get a noOb pirate in his first inty commanding a 100mill+ bounty as a rule.
I would have thought that solo hunters are more likely to go for lower isk bounties as lower isk would be perceived as lower risk. There won't be enough to share out but the pirate hunter is more confident on taking on the nasty pirate himself.
That's my two penneth anyhows. As to the rest, a lot of it makes sense imho.
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Amira Silvermist
Ubiqua Seraph
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Posted - 2006.10.20 17:56:00 -
[102]
Lifewires bounty system gets my seal of approval! 
Your "no insurance and hunters gets paid by mineral value" system rocks...
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Alteer
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Posted - 2006.10.21 09:53:00 -
[103]
First off Lifewire you make a good point and I got to give you credit for making a difficult argument.
Here's my 2 pence worth.
0.0 space is lawless. End of point no further comment needed. This is the current domain of a true pirate, he/she will live here because their sec status is too low to allow them to operate in empire space where there is law. The current standings settings for corp/alliance allows players to set their own security towards other corps . This is an effective system, the corp/alliance IS free to protect what it considers to be its soverign space; effectively policing it already. If you enter most alliance space dont you often come across roving squads looking for people who shouldnt be there to shoot? This is what NBSI means. The standings control the actions of those pilots within the alliance/corp within their own space. Quite simply this system doesnt need changing.
The idea of a market in 0.0 space is a waste of time. Most alliances will own their own outposts in 0.0 with a market that is only accessible to those members it has set standings towards. The point being that they dont want pirates/enemy fleets to be able to buy replacement ships and weapons in their space, it would remove the need for the logistics involved in a war dec. If ASCN want to attack BoB in their own space then let them bring all the ships and ammo they need - im sure BoB would be happy to sell them ships and then gank them but this is beside the point :D A true market in 0.0 will never exist. Low sec space gives pirates access to a usually inflated market price but a market non the less.
Why be a pirate? I think this is the domain of the pure PvP'er atm - someone who is either independantly wealthy or doesnt really care. You can pirate in a t1 frig or a t2 HAC - both can web/scram/jam/damp etc its just one is harder to kill than the other and hence changes the targets that you might engage. I got a lot of respect for the pirate community because its a hard life and I couldnt manage it all the time; I loose too many ships 
Why be a Pirate Hunter? Well you still get access to empire you can collect bounties - even though the current system needs changing. You dont have to pirate hunt 24/7 to make ends meat - when things are bad you just mission run or mine for a bit. This isnt a true profession atm because of this and that is why Lifewire has written his post.
Suggestions - perhaps Pirate players should have access to someplace like deadspace to hang out. The gates in and out could require sec standings to use or some other similar control method which might be useful for moving around in. Almost like a series of tunnels for them to move about space in as opposed to using the normal jump gates, this system of deadspace shouldnt be all encompassing but maybe a few pockets and areas of travel here and there in low sec/0.0. The Pirate player would then be able to move around different regions of 0.0 more effectively and find better oppertunities to hunt. Smuggling could then also use this area of space as a market. Perhaps a smuggler could run specific buy orders for pirate corps to and from empire to this deadspace zone - keeping the pirates running. The area could be populated by CONCORD/Police drones as opposed to NPC pirates for the player pirate to kill in the dead time between hunting. A sort of anti-empire zone. This would provide a good regular income making Pirating still dangerous but a proper bone fide career. Hell you could even implement pirate agents with more nefarious missions such as kill 3 player characters and return their corpse's to me! 
The Pirate Hunter would then have a true role. The number of pirates would increase - the trading oppertunity would be there for smugglers - 0.0 would still be the domain of alliances and PvP'ers empire would remain safe for noobs and traders. This is just a few ideas that I have come up with. Feel free to flame me as much as you like.
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Ferno
Puppets on Steroids
iPOD Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.21 14:44:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Ferno on 21/10/2006 14:47:20
:Edit put in some spaces
I agree with Alteers above post. The bounty system/securaty system needs fixing but penalising 0.0 alliance for securing there space by giving them a negative securaty status is wrong and will just meen more alts for spying and empire trips.
Having a strong market in 0.0 is a bad idea. Alliances are normaly very self sufficiant and dont need a strong market a strong market will benefit attacking forces by removing there logistical problems which i think will reduce the game and make teritory change alot harder. loosing a ship in 0.0 is not like empire you carnt just nip to the next system and get another (at a resonable price) you have to work together with your corp/alliance to make sure you all have the parts required to keep on fighting once your supplys are depleted you have to make long trips to empire or mine in the belts. If ships could be bought as easily in empire along with the amazing bountys you get on the rats, 0.0 will turn into a FPS. cheap replacable ships in 0.0 
The Pirate Base in deadspace complexes is a great idea imagine the possabilaties of a black market in lowsec, illegal weapons and preformance ehancing drugs which could be possibley made in pirate complexes where a negative standing is the key. This will encourage smuggling and may make for Criminal industrialist it will give the pirates there own market and if there are regular concord spwns abit of income when things are tight. This will only work if the bounty/contract system is fixed otherwise it will be too great a advantage to the Pirates.
If you want non pirates to live in low sec they need to be able to punish the ppl that hurt there opperations.
I have probably gone off topic here but i feel better now its off my chest. Flame Away
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Ralus
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.21 17:00:00 -
[105]
I think the biggest boost to the bounty hunter proffession would be if ccp allowed kill rights to be traded with the new contract system.
The system needs to look a little like this:
->Bounty hunting corp esablishes itself in a region/constilation and makes themselves known that they are offering kill contracts on people.
->Pirate kills rich npc'er, the npc'er now has the three most important items for a bounty contract: a fat wallet, a kill right, and a seriously ****ed of attitude.
->npc'er contacts the bounty hunting corp, and a contract is made transfering the kill right, and offering 50M reward on the pirates termination for the duration of the kill right. For safety the 50M is held in escrow and transfered automatically if the kill right is compleated, or returned if the killmail times out.
->With this system 1) The npc'er know his cash is secure and will only be transfered if the kill is compleated 2) The bounty hunter is safe that he will be paid fully for his efforts 3) The pirate gets more action, and has more fun.
It's a win win situation I cannot see a downside to this system.
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bunghole1
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Posted - 2006.10.22 20:35:00 -
[106]
Quote:
Noobs and alts have nothing to do in 0.0 - quite simple.
For THAT you can k m a,to be blunt.
I got plenty to do in there;I mine,I build ships and ammo,I add to the market,and occasionally I add to someones Kill Mail.
GRANTED,the fact that the game has alts,to me is just ludicrous.Too many exploits and meta-gaming involved.
If you ammend that one statement to "get rid of alts altogether" it would make more sense.
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Guntaro
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Posted - 2006.10.22 21:04:00 -
[107]
The problem here is that Lifewire believes hunting pirates should be as profitable as pirating.
It isn't and SHOULD'NT because of one simple reason. Pirates are smart and skilled pvp'ers and are hard to catch.
Pirates however prey on weaker ships and careless/dumb players. It is Darwinism at its best. It is really the victim's faults which pirates exploit.
Now to say just because pirates are too skilled to be killed frequently enough by pirate hunters to earn them money so they need a boost is utter crap and blasphemy.
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Dark PIne
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Posted - 2006.10.24 05:06:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Guntaro
Edited by: Guntaro on 22/10/2006 21:18:07
The problem here is that Lifewire believes hunting pirates should be as profitable as pirating.
It isn't and SHOULD'NT because of one simple reason. Pirates are smart and skilled pvp'ers and are hard to kill.
Pirates however prey on weaker ships and careless/dumb players. It is Darwinism at its best. It is really the victim's faults which pirates exploit.
First we have to make bounty hunting profitable, then we can start comparing the two. But basically I agree with you, piracy should offer greater potential for making ISK in general. That does not rule out the possibility, that a highly skilled bounty hunter could make as much profit. After all, bounty hunters are smart and skilled pvp'ers and are hard to kill. 
As I see it, fixing two things would kick-start the bounty hunting profession:
- (auto)bounty from the ships
- no security hits when hunting in the empire (but concord protection/sentrys would remain the same).
In order to get more hunting throughout the empire (since 0.0 is mostly alliance controlled it isn't a viable hunting ground) I'd be willing to allow all pirates enter 1.0 space with a condition; a pirate entering empire system will be flashing red according to following table:
Pirate's sec rating / Will flash red in systems
0 ... -1 / never
-1 ... -2 / 1.0
-2 ... -3 / 0.9 ... 1.0
-3 ... -4 / 0.8 ... 1.0
-4 ... -5 / 0.7 ... 1.0
-5 ... -6 / 0.6 ... 1.0
-6 ... -7 / 0.5 ... 1.0
-7 ... -8 / 0.4 ... 1.0
-8 ... -9 / 0.2 ... 1.0
-9 ... -9.9 / always
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.10.24 07:53:00 -
[109]
I like most of what the OP suggest, with the exclusion of the 0.0 restriction to new players.
On the sec standing: why the killing of rats in 0.0 give sec gain?
If CONCOR is uninterested about PC killing PC in 0.0, whyit should reward PC killing NPC in 0.0, It is lawless territory, so CONCORD shouldn't be interested about PC actions in it both ways.
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Jinryu Nasake
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Posted - 2006.10.24 13:18:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Jinryu Nasake on 24/10/2006 13:18:55
I also like the ideas of the OP.
I like doing PvP and see me more on the pirate hunting side.
I neglect the point pirates have no way of making money, it's just poor whining again.
You can also run missions in Lowsec for gaining much ISK, without problems.
I personally only run missions to pay for the ships I loose in battles against much more experienced and organized pirates. A NPC-rated Bounty on Player Pirates would make the pirate-hunting replace the boring mission work that is needed to pay for the lost material and make PvP worth doing more often.
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