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Lifewire
Caldari
TunDraGon
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Posted - 2006.10.14 12:41:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Lifewire on 14/10/2006 12:44:20
As piratecorp we actually have a lot of fun with piratehunters that show up frequently to hunt us. It¦s a nice cat & mouse game with battles sizes like 5 vs 5 or 4 vs 2. We get attacked maybe 3-4 x per day which is great fun for us and for them. But i noticed that these guys have no way to make ISK and this makes me mad. Even if they would destroy one of our ships, they still have to tackle the pod and then they would get bountys between 1-100 mil ISK. That is not much when you look at the risk attacking well prepared pirates.
Piratehunting needs some love! The best counterbalance to pirates is not increasing sentry range or the next tanking patch - the best solution is to make bountyhunting a good job! It¦s not atm!
So here some things that must happen as soon as possible. All pirates and piratehunters should help to get this things realised. Post your ideas and and improvements here! Use this topic and keep it alive! Alliances get all they want by just mass-posting on forums - if we pirates and piratehunters do not stand up, then this missbalancing will continue and CCP will be stuck coding alliance crap for ever! Most pirates and piratehunters are really nice persons - never smack, do not leave gangmates in battle or do not log in combat - you guys are mostly too nice persons to open your mouth and demand something from CCP - but we have to!
1.) Bounty+inssurance patch
bountys must be payed when a pirate ship is destroyed. We all know that this would be exploited if the pirateship can be inssured. This means pirates have to accept that once they are -2.0 they are not allowed anymore to inssure their ship. There must be no payout even if the corp or someone else inssured the ship! This is the price we pirates have to pay for our lazy and evil way of life!
2.) Concord auto-bounty:
Once a pirate gets -2.0, Concord should start to put bountys on the pirate. Example: destroying a Thorax should give 1 mil autobounty. So the autobounty must be linked to the destroyed ships.
3.) Bounty payout linked to pirates vessel
Since a pirate would be able to get several 100 mil bounty on his head, the payout of this bounty must be linked to the ship he gets destroyed in. In other words: if a pirate in a Blackbird with 100 mil bounty gets toasted by a bountyhunter, the bounty has to be roundabout 2 mil ISK. 98 mil would stay on pirates head/next ship.
4.) more pirates
One of the biggest problems for bountyhunters is that there are only very few pirates! Lets say we have 500 red ships in this game - thats not enough! This is where sec. hits in 0.0 should fix it, because a lot of people do acts of piracy in 0.0 without any sec. hits.
Sec. hits in 0.0 are very important to fix the whole game situation, but especially for bountyhunters it would help a lot. This is a very difficult thing to realise, so i have some details here:
- opening fire at a war or pirate target should not give a sec hit in 0.0. Maybe it would be wise to add an option to war declarations: "0.0 war only". An 0.0 war should not cost any ISK but should have the same rules like actual war decalrations: 24 h activation time and so on.
- firing a neutral target however, has to give a sec. hit! Alt-charcaters are a problem, because they are in n00b corps for example. This is why it is important that ships in n00b-corps and characters that are younger than 3 months or have less than 2 mil skillpoints should not be allowed to enter 0.0. Noobs and alts have nothing to do in 0.0 - quite simple.
- Sovereignity in a system should give the corp/alliance the right to attack any target without sec. hit! If a corp/alliance has sov, then this group takes over the justice work Concord does in empire. But if the same players attack a neutral in unclaimed or other alliances territory, then sec. hits should strike.
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Major Stormer
Caldari
Demon Womb
Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.14 12:47:00 -
[2]
 Quote:
firing a neutral target however, has to give a sec. hit! Alt-charcaters are a problem, because they are in n00b corps for example. This is why it is important that ships in n00b-corps and characters that are younger than 3 months or have less than 2 mil skillpoints should not be allowed to enter 0.0. Noobs and alts have nothing to do in 0.0 - quite simple.
With that I lost interest in whatever you was saying. apy alts have no purpose, but closing off 0.0 to real noobs should never be allowed.
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Above post is my opinion only and does not represent my corp/alliance. |
LadyShu
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.14 13:08:00 -
[3]
I really like the bounty idea and with this the auto bounty. But with the 0.0 limitation you kicked me off...
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certified ferox crashtest pilot |
Turiya Flesharrower
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.10.14 13:08:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Lifewire
Firing on a neutral target however, has to give a sec. hit! Alt-charcaters are a problem, because they are in n00b corps for example. This is why it is important that ships in n00b-corps and characters that are younger than 3 months or have less than 2 mil skillpoints should not be allowed to enter 0.0. Noobs and alts have nothing to do in 0.0 - quite simple.
I agree with almost everything you've suggested with the exception of the above point. It kind of defies the whole point of 0.0 space as a lawless area where players can carve out their own Empires and anything can happen. If corps like ours got sec hits in 0.0, it'd spell the end of small 0.0 PvP corps in general.
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madaluap
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2006.10.14 13:27:00 -
[5]
Originally by: LadyShu
I really like the bounty idea and with this the auto bounty. But with the 0.0 limitation you kicked me off...
Same here
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Beringe
Raptus Regaliter
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Posted - 2006.10.14 13:36:00 -
[6]
I'm always amazed to see thread names with "OMG CCP MUST SEE" in them.
I wonder if people really think that sort of thing draws their attention any better than a well written argument.
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"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Lifewire
Caldari
TunDraGon
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Posted - 2006.10.14 14:03:00 -
[7]
Quote:
I wonder if people really think that sort of thing draws their attention any better than a well written argument.
A well written argument + CCP MUST SEE is still ok 
Especially if i demand something for my enemys and not for myself  99% of these topics are whiners that want their game made easier - i want piratehunters boosted and those are my enemys
Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/
Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips
Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
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Zarquon Beeblebrox
Liberate Vos Ex Inferis
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Posted - 2006.10.14 14:43:00 -
[8]
/Signed.
I really dont care how CCP fix the pirate/anti pirate / sechit / bounty thingy. As long as they do something to fix it.
I think lifewires ides are great. They fix the whole chain of events thats need to be fixed.
The big problem now as lifewire points out and have a sugestion on how to fix is the abuse of bountys and how that abuse make bountys useless. Wich is the key reasons why there really are not many bounty hunters.
Good post lifewire.
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Lady Beeblebrox |
GenePool Chlorinator
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Posted - 2006.10.14 15:11:00 -
[9]
I dunno that I agree with most of your points :(
Originally by: Lifewire
Edited by: Lifewire on 14/10/2006 12:44:20
1.) Bounty+inssurance patch
You say that you want MORE pirates, but then you say that you will take away insurance. I don't think that will encourage more people to pirate. Instead what will happen is that those that want to pirate will pirate, and when they lose a ship, most will go rat so that they can get their sec rating to insure their ship. This makes things LESS fun for pirates and therefore less pirates.
Originally by: Lifewire
2.) Concord auto-bounty:
This will serve to get bounties higher on the people who pirate a lot, but that only introduces more isk into the game and more inflation. Right now, one of the main 'sinks' in the game is the destruction of materials. Compensating that 'sink' with isk defeats that purpose. The numbers you quoted are also way too high. That would add up quickly enough to encourage people to get a buddy to pod them quickly.
Originally by: Lifewire
3.) Bounty payout linked to pirates vessel
This may serve to limit the payouts, but will also lessen the desire to hunt pirates for more than the current payout (loot). The elusive pods will still be the goal, but the rewards will be higher. This idea may have some merit, but would need some thinking through for balance purposes.
Originally by: Lifewire
4.) more pirates
I disagree with adding sec hits to 0.0 because then it is just like Empire. That being said, the idea of alliances being able to police their own space seems like a good one!
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Lifewire
Caldari
TunDraGon
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Posted - 2006.10.14 15:14:00 -
[10]
Thx Zarq
There are many people of alliances that dont like sec. hits in 0.0 - i know this and its ok that you want to shoot neutrals. But take some minutes and think about it twice - to get a real playerdriven universe the NPC-rats have to be replaced by player-rats step by step. This means instead of having 3 mil bounty NPC-rat in space, there must be really high bounty player rats. 500 men cannot do this job and i think we don¦t have more than 500 red ships in the whole galaxy. The alliance people that want to shoot neutrals have to accept their role: piracy! If you want to attack everyone, then you are a pirate player. So do not hide in alliances and behind "alliance warfare". If you gank whatever comes in front of your railguns, then you are not playing your role as alliance navy officer well - you actually simply dont know where you belong to, pirate?, piratehunter?, alliance navy? Checkout what you wanted to be when you started EVE? Good guy, bad guy? Find your role! Once you understand this, you will be fine with sec. hits.
The idea to have autobountys would dramatically improve the game because broing chainfarming of NPCs would get replaced by much more interesting player pirate hunting. The payment will be ok! The enemys will not be as stupid as NPCs are - all in all this would make EVE great! To get this we need more pirates and we need bountyhunting fixed - there is no way arround this if we want a playerdriven game.
Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/
Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips
Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
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Lifewire
Caldari
TunDraGon
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Posted - 2006.10.14 15:27:00 -
[11]
Quote:
You say that you want MORE pirates, but then you say that you will take away insurance. I don't think that will encourage more people to pirate. Instead what will happen is that those that want to pirate will pirate, and when they lose a ship, most will go rat so that they can get their sec rating to insure their ship. This makes things LESS fun for pirates and therefore less pirates.
The pirates in EVE have one big advantadge: they can attack whatever they want! This is a powerfull advantadge and believe me, i know what i talk of! We pirates have the choice: allways! We decide when the party happens and this advantadge is really powerfull! With this advantadge we dont need inssurances.
Quote:
This will serve to get bounties higher on the people who pirate a lot, but that only introduces more isk into the game and more inflation. Right now, one of the main 'sinks' in the game is the destruction of materials. Compensating that 'sink' with isk defeats that purpose. The numbers you quoted are also way too high. That would add up quickly enough to encourage people to get a buddy to pod them quickly.
No, it replaces the NPC-chainfarming ISK! A piratehunter that hunts playerpirates cannot hunt NPCs meanwhile!!!
Quote:
This may serve to limit the payouts, but will also lessen the desire to hunt pirates for more than the current payout (loot). The elusive pods will still be the goal, but the rewards will be higher. This idea may have some merit, but would need some thinking through for balance purposes.
Pods should not give a bounty - only the ship. Otherwise pirates mght podkill themselves.
Quote:
I disagree with adding sec hits to 0.0 because then it is just like Empire. That being said, the idea of alliances being able to police their own space seems like a good one!
Its by far not like empire - sec. hits in 0.0 do not nerf combat, it just forces players to choose a role. If someone wants to gank neutrals, then he will "find" his role after 10-20 ganks: pirate! If he wants to be an alliance navy officer, then he has to take care of some basic rules: not kill neutrals outside his alliances territory. 0.0 would not get like empire - empire has sentry guns and Concord. To be true: the ideas i proposed would also favor another proffession: smugglers that support pirate corps with equipment. So player driven content is fully boosted with these ideas. Replace NPC-rats step by step with player rats.
Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/
Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips
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Victoria Zongo
Derelik Privateers
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Posted - 2006.10.14 16:06:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Victoria Zongo on 14/10/2006 16:06:25
Well, sounds quite reasonable, including the 0.0 sec hits.
"No insurance" can get people into unsolvable situations with no ships left and no cash for clones. I would rather see steps like: full insurance on frigates, half insurance on cruisers, nothing on battleships. If you get blown up too often, back to frigate piracy ..
And finally, a shameless plug to my thread in the ideas forum. There is some similar stuff like suggested here. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405939
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon
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Posted - 2006.10.14 16:21:00 -
[13]
I dont think this would work very well in current day EvE, perhaps another solution....
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Skybar
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Posted - 2006.10.14 17:40:00 -
[14]
Introduce Bean-bag ammo or paintball ammo that you can use in 0,0. They do normal damage, but instead of the player getting killed and loose his ship, he's just being kicked out of that 0.0 region.
That way, you really are policing your own territory, as police dont shoot people to kill, only to defend themselves :P
---
No, it was a silly suggestion, but think there is a point somewhere in it :)
Now I'm off for another beer.
Keep this topic going!
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Leikeze Mrotserif
Murder-Death-Kill
Blood Raiders Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.14 17:50:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Leikeze Mrotserif on 14/10/2006 17:52:27
If bounty was linked to the destroyed ships my head would be worth billions!!
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Don ZOLA
Caldari
TunDraGon
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Posted - 2006.10.14 18:02:00 -
[16]
well something has to be done bout it, in this or other way, every other proffesion in eve can make much isk without any problems while pirates and anti pirates for same time spent working gain lot less isk.
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Lifewire
Caldari
TunDraGon
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Posted - 2006.10.14 18:18:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Lifewire on 14/10/2006 18:18:42
Quote:
well something has to be done bout it, in this or other way, every other proffesion in eve can make much isk without any problems while pirates and anti pirates for same time spent working gain lot less isk.
This is actually very unfair - pirate hunters need hours to organise a good attack on a pirate camp. While industrial players can have free ISK all day, the piratehunters need to get covert ops and attack team into position, need to wait for a good moment to strike and have extreme risk of getting killed themselves! How can this be if we all know risk vs reward is a basic EVE element??? Piratehunters have high risk and no reward for their work. And with only 500 red ships in game, they don¦t have enough work at all!
For me all those guys that attacked us are great players - they try to find a role and play it well. They should get some love of CCP. We had so much new content for the stupid NPC-chainers in this game - it¦s time for some content for the real men!
Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/
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Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
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Dryxonedes Sae
Whine Distillery
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Posted - 2006.10.14 18:30:00 -
[18]
Having spoken with life on TS about exactly this, i agree in pretty much every way. Sec hits in 0.0, absolutely. Drop them way below current though. Have one set of sec hits for 0.5+, another for 0.1-0.4, and a final for 0.0. The final set should be minimal, but enough so that if your current place in eve is camping a gate for your alliance, you are going to notice it eventually. It also would force everyone to make that choice when it comes to destroying something, instead of 0.0 being a mindless zone where you can do as you please, it all catches up eventually.
Possibly a little "change up" on the sec hit method, being an agression in 0.0 nets very minor hit, but the destruction hits as per low sec, thus allowing you to lock down, and intimidate, but if you want to take the final step, you take the hit. On the same note, drop the aggression on low sec stuff, encourage the agression, but raise the kill hit, discourage that = encourage the ransom?
Pirates can farm non-pirates, so it ought to work the other way, which is what life is pushing towards. /signed.
****
Where's the problem? It's called natural selection - The bottom of the ****ing food chain. -Denis Leary |
Majin82
Caldari
g guild
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Posted - 2006.10.14 18:38:00 -
[19]
minus the 0.0 access restriction part.
I support this idea 100%.
has nothing to do with me being an Anti-Pirate 
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Proud member of G Guild! |
Jenial
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Posted - 2006.10.14 18:59:00 -
[20]
Bounties and collecting them should be diectly linked to your standings and ratings. If you have minus rating/standing you should not get bounties from the CONCORD system.
Players with better ratings/standings should get more ISK based on the amount bounty and standing of the pirate.
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General Coochie
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Posted - 2006.10.14 19:08:00 -
[21]
Edited by: General Coochie on 14/10/2006 19:11:22
I think all your suggestions are excellent except..
I do not agree with the "noob cannot enter 0.0" idea. I havent even got 2mill SP yet, but I dont think that it should restrict me from 0.0. I dont think restricting some players or characters from certain parts of the game is a good idea. Players with less then 2mill SP can do lots of things in 0.0. I understand the problem that arises, with alts, if everthing else should be implented. But I would like a different solution.
Im fairly new to EvE but.. If an alliance have soverginity over a territory where its habitants dont get sec-hits wouldnt that alone provide an important counter vs spying alts? atleast from spying in that alliance's region(s).
I think the sec hits in 0.0 is a very good idea. Way to much ppl out there take the opportunity to be evil for awhile in 0.0, setting upp bubbles, gate camp or whatever. And as you suggested this wouldnt affect players protecting their conquerd region.
Maybe restricting trial accounts from 0.0 would be a better solution? Just adding an idea to the diskussion, didnt really thought much about it. Sorry to say I have no better alternative to counter the noob spy problem. I never even experienced it myself so I dont really know what its about, I can only reason about it.
I just wanted to state my opinion and say that I agree with your basic idea, that pirate hunter needs to be buffed, and that I think your suggestions to realize this idea are almost perfect.
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Acama
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Posted - 2006.10.14 19:12:00 -
[22]
Sounds good, only problem is more people will npc their sec status above -2 before going out and pirating...
Maybe people should only get bounties for shooting in low sec, not in 0.0, so the sec hits don't mean so much out there, especially as you can npc them back up before too long... sound good?
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Lifewire
Caldari
TunDraGon
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Posted - 2006.10.14 19:52:00 -
[23]
Quote:
I do not agree with the "noob cannot enter 0.0" idea. I havent even got 2mill SP yet, but I dont think that it should restrict me from 0.0. I dont think restricting some players or characters from certain parts of the game is a good idea.
Ok, if you have an alliance that defens you, then you might make it as n00b in 0.0.
I dont care where exactly the line is drawn: 2 mil skillpint, 1 mil skillpoint...the important thing is that riskfree zero-ISK-scouts (EVE slang: alts) should not enter 0.0. Especially not if those are in a n00b corp (you cannot declare war on n00bcorp). Thats why i think 0.0 should be restricted to player corps, alliances and if possible players with a certain age and skillpoint amount.
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General Coochie
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Posted - 2006.10.14 20:26:00 -
[24]
Edited by: General Coochie on 14/10/2006 20:33:51
Quote:
Ok, if you have an alliance that defens you, then you might make it as n00b in 0.0.
Exactly, you need a protective corp/allaince, but in return you also help the alliance.
New chars can help an alliance or corp in 0.0 with hauling, mining, tackling even. Thats whats so nice about EvE - even newer characters can pretty soon get an important role in an op.
Quote:
I dont care where exactly the line is drawn: 2 mil skillpint, 1 mil skillpoint...the important thing is that riskfree zero-ISK-scouts (EVE slang: alts) should not enter 0.0. Especially not if those are in a n00b corp (you cannot declare war on n00bcorp). Thats why i think 0.0 should be restricted to player corps, alliances and if possible players with a certain age and skillpoint amount.
Having the requirement that they cannot be in a noob corp seems as a pretty good partial solution to me. There can even be a "logical" roleplaying reason for this, as the (noob)corp dont let its members venture out to 0.0 because its to dangerous. I know there exists player owned corps with similar rules, Ive been in one with another char were we werent allowed in low-sec :)
I dont know if this would be counterd by ppl making corps for their alts to join to avoid war-decs whenever needed. Then maybe make the corp creating time a bit longer if that would be the case? some days, a week. Just a thought, Instead of making players with low SP not beeing able to enter 0.0.
I thought you were determined about the 2mill limit, to have a limit I can agree with, I think 2 mill is a bit high. Maybe its because Im still noob myself 
I am atleast pro these changes. I think it would make an EvE more fun to play.
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Zarquon Beeblebrox
Liberate Vos Ex Inferis
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Posted - 2006.10.14 21:45:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Zarquon Beeblebrox on 14/10/2006 21:46:11
Im sure CCP are able to come up with a way to implement this and at the same time make sure 0.0 alliance space is not overflooded with alt spys, scouts and what not, missuing this fixes. "I meen comeone CCP came up with deadspace complexes, jump quea's, and many more exelent features" ;) (ok the quoted text was a joke)
Anyway the basic of lifewires ides are good. Sure CCP are free to make equaly good solutions. The point is not that all of lifewires ides should be implemented as if. But rather that CCP are able to fix all of the isues lifewire try to fix with his ides.
Make bounty work. Make a way for bounty hunters to have a role. Make sure you get sec hits for pirating in 0.0. Make sure pirates cant clame their own bountys.
This things are the importent things. Only lifewire have also an ide how to fix them and they sure are better then any other ides iv heard so far.
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Lady Beeblebrox |
karrak
Ruffians
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Posted - 2006.10.15 00:02:00 -
[26]
I like your bounty system Life but you know how i feel about sec hits inn 0.0. Thats a no go right there, i dont want 0.0 to turn into highsec minus the sentry's
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Victoria Zongo
Derelik Privateers
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Posted - 2006.10.15 00:32:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Victoria Zongo on 15/10/2006 00:32:35
"0.0 is the frontier", "there is no Concord", etc .. Then who hands out all the sec increases for killing NPC rats? This is highly inconsistent and long overdue for being fixed.
(edit: I can't spell)
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karrak
Ruffians
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Posted - 2006.10.15 02:18:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Victoria Zongo
Edited by: Victoria Zongo on 15/10/2006 00:32:35
"0.0 is the frontier", "there is no Concord", etc .. Then who hands out all the sec increases for killing NPC rats? This is highly inconsistent and long overdue for being fixed.
(edit: I can't spell)
You kill a npc faction pirate, you take his loot/his dna, his dog tags etc etc, there is a million ways that could bee explained.
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vile56
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.15 02:18:00 -
[29]
ive already stated my point on the insuranse payout and neg sec.
but since most people know already of the bob-ascn conflict ill use this, there still hasnt been a actual war dec, yet we are both at war.
haveing sec hits in 0.0 would mean that concord rules over 0.0, and if concord oversees 0.0 then its claimed by a faction(since concord only oversees amarr,cally ect space), not player sov. so there would always be sec hits since u cant claim sov in a npc region.
if u get a sec hit its a reconized npc factiont that owns it.
i probaly typed this in a round about way, but i hope you get my point.
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Lifewire
Caldari
TunDraGon
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Posted - 2006.10.15 03:33:00 -
[30]
Karrak, a player driven game (this means player "police", player pirates, player indutrials, player factions) can only happen in 0.0. Empire has to be seen as CCP sponsored n00b area. I dont understand why a 0.0 pirate has to enter Jita??? Why are you so hot on entering 1.0 systems with your pirate char??? You damage all proffessions the game has this way:
1.) Smugglers - they have no work since you simply go to Jita and buy stuff yourself.
2.) Pirate Hunters - they have no work because you are not -10.0 and have no bounty if you never receive sec hits for 0.0 piracy.
3.) Pirates - in 0.0 pirates might work like pirates, but they dont look like pirates. All ships are white, neutral, no one can say who is a "bad guy" and who is a "good guy". Nobody really fullfills his role in 0.0. Its just gladiators slaugthering each other.
4.) Industrial players - 3 years and still EVE has not a single real 0.0 market! And why? Because industrial players cannot enter 0.0 unless they are in an alliance and are part of the alliances war production wing. A player driven market in 0.0 needs a minimum security and this would be sec. hits.
So the easy life 0.0 pvpers want (pirating and later go shopping in Jita), damages EVEs development to be a player driven game. It will never happen that EVE is truely player driven as long people are not forced to choose their role. Sec. hits force you into a role. If you want to shoot neutrals, you will sooner or later have a -10.0 sec. rating.
Lets take a look at what would happen to the game if my proposed patch would be realised:
1.) Each player will have to choose: be navy officer, be pirate? Be smuggler?
2.) Piratehunters will have a job and get payment.
3.) Smuggler proffession will be created - they will smuggle goods to alliances like BOB that surely would soon be a red ship alliance.
4.) Industrial players will start to see 0.0 as market! With 20-40K red ships it will be a powerfull market. Tons of PVPers need equipment delivered.
5.) NPC rats bountys will be a joke compared to player bountys that can be collected. Step by step NPC-chainfarming will be replaced with 100% playerdriven content. This means hunting player pirates would really be a scource of income!
6.) "Show info" will actually say something about the pilots threat level. People that now are sitting in the empire prison will start to settle 0.0 because risks will be more predictable for them.
The price to pay for this improvements: have a red ship and feel like RED BARON - i think this can be accepted.
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