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PIRATEHUNTING NEEDS SOME LOVE! CCP MUST CHECK THIS!

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Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.14 12:41:00 - [1] Edited by: Lifewire on 14/10/2006 12:44:20 As piratecorp we actually have a lot of fun with piratehunters that show up frequently to hunt us. It¦s a nice cat & mouse game with battles sizes like 5 vs 5 or 4 vs 2. We get attacked maybe 3-4 x per day which is great fun for us and for them. But i noticed that these guys have no way to make ISK and this makes me mad. Even if they would destroy one of our ships, they still have to tackle the pod and then they would get bountys between 1-100 mil ISK. That is not much when you look at the risk attacking well prepared pirates. Piratehunting needs some love! The best counterbalance to pirates is not increasing sentry range or the next tanking patch - the best solution is to make bountyhunting a good job! It¦s not atm! So here some things that must happen as soon as possible. All pirates and piratehunters should help to get this things realised. Post your ideas and and improvements here! Use this topic and keep it alive! Alliances get all they want by just mass-posting on forums - if we pirates and piratehunters do not stand up, then this missbalancing will continue and CCP will be stuck coding alliance crap for ever! Most pirates and piratehunters are really nice persons - never smack, do not leave gangmates in battle or do not log in combat - you guys are mostly too nice persons to open your mouth and demand something from CCP - but we have to! 1.) Bounty+inssurance patch bountys must be payed when a pirate ship is destroyed. We all know that this would be exploited if the pirateship can be inssured. This means pirates have to accept that once they are -2.0 they are not allowed anymore to inssure their ship. There must be no payout even if the corp or someone else inssured the ship! This is the price we pirates have to pay for our lazy and evil way of life! 2.) Concord auto-bounty: Once a pirate gets -2.0, Concord should start to put bountys on the pirate. Example: destroying a Thorax should give 1 mil autobounty. So the autobounty must be linked to the destroyed ships. 3.) Bounty payout linked to pirates vessel Since a pirate would be able to get several 100 mil bounty on his head, the payout of this bounty must be linked to the ship he gets destroyed in. In other words: if a pirate in a Blackbird with 100 mil bounty gets toasted by a bountyhunter, the bounty has to be roundabout 2 mil ISK. 98 mil would stay on pirates head/next ship. 4.) more pirates One of the biggest problems for bountyhunters is that there are only very few pirates! Lets say we have 500 red ships in this game - thats not enough! This is where sec. hits in 0.0 should fix it, because a lot of people do acts of piracy in 0.0 without any sec. hits. Sec. hits in 0.0 are very important to fix the whole game situation, but especially for bountyhunters it would help a lot. This is a very difficult thing to realise, so i have some details here: - opening fire at a war or pirate target should not give a sec hit in 0.0. Maybe it would be wise to add an option to war declarations: "0.0 war only". An 0.0 war should not cost any ISK but should have the same rules like actual war decalrations: 24 h activation time and so on. - firing a neutral target however, has to give a sec. hit! Alt-charcaters are a problem, because they are in n00b corps for example. This is why it is important that ships in n00b-corps and characters that are younger than 3 months or have less than 2 mil skillpoints should not be allowed to enter 0.0. Noobs and alts have nothing to do in 0.0 - quite simple. - Sovereignity in a system should give the corp/alliance the right to attack any target without sec. hit! If a corp/alliance has sov, then this group takes over the justice work Concord does in empire. But if the same players attack a neutral in unclaimed or other alliances territory, then sec. hits should strike. Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
Major Stormer Caldari Demon Womb Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.14 12:47:00 - [2] Quote: firing a neutral target however, has to give a sec. hit! Alt-charcaters are a problem, because they are in n00b corps for example. This is why it is important that ships in n00b-corps and characters that are younger than 3 months or have less than 2 mil skillpoints should not be allowed to enter 0.0. Noobs and alts have nothing to do in 0.0 - quite simple. With that I lost interest in whatever you was saying. apy alts have no purpose, but closing off 0.0 to real noobs should never be allowed. -------------------------- Above post is my opinion only and does not represent my corp/alliance.
LadyShu Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.14 13:08:00 - [3] I really like the bounty idea and with this the auto bounty. But with the 0.0 limitation you kicked me off... ------------------------------- certified ferox crashtest pilot
Turiya Flesharrower Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.10.14 13:08:00 - [4] Originally by: Lifewire Firing on a neutral target however, has to give a sec. hit! Alt-charcaters are a problem, because they are in n00b corps for example. This is why it is important that ships in n00b-corps and characters that are younger than 3 months or have less than 2 mil skillpoints should not be allowed to enter 0.0. Noobs and alts have nothing to do in 0.0 - quite simple. I agree with almost everything you've suggested with the exception of the above point. It kind of defies the whole point of 0.0 space as a lawless area where players can carve out their own Empires and anything can happen. If corps like ours got sec hits in 0.0, it'd spell the end of small 0.0 PvP corps in general. -----
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.14 13:27:00 - [5] Originally by: LadyShu I really like the bounty idea and with this the auto bounty. But with the 0.0 limitation you kicked me off... Same here _________________________________________________
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.14 13:36:00 - [6] I'm always amazed to see thread names with "OMG CCP MUST SEE" in them. I wonder if people really think that sort of thing draws their attention any better than a well written argument. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.14 14:03:00 - [7] Quote: I wonder if people really think that sort of thing draws their attention any better than a well written argument. A well written argument + CCP MUST SEE is still ok Especially if i demand something for my enemys and not for myself 99% of these topics are whiners that want their game made easier - i want piratehunters boosted and those are my enemys Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
Zarquon Beeblebrox Liberate Vos Ex Inferis	Posted - 2006.10.14 14:43:00 - [8] /Signed. I really dont care how CCP fix the pirate/anti pirate / sechit / bounty thingy. As long as they do something to fix it. I think lifewires ides are great. They fix the whole chain of events thats need to be fixed. The big problem now as lifewire points out and have a sugestion on how to fix is the abuse of bountys and how that abuse make bountys useless. Wich is the key reasons why there really are not many bounty hunters. Good post lifewire. -- Lady Beeblebrox
GenePool Chlorinator	Posted - 2006.10.14 15:11:00 - [9] I dunno that I agree with most of your points :( Originally by: Lifewire Edited by: Lifewire on 14/10/2006 12:44:20 1.) Bounty+inssurance patch You say that you want MORE pirates, but then you say that you will take away insurance. I don't think that will encourage more people to pirate. Instead what will happen is that those that want to pirate will pirate, and when they lose a ship, most will go rat so that they can get their sec rating to insure their ship. This makes things LESS fun for pirates and therefore less pirates. Originally by: Lifewire 2.) Concord auto-bounty: This will serve to get bounties higher on the people who pirate a lot, but that only introduces more isk into the game and more inflation. Right now, one of the main 'sinks' in the game is the destruction of materials. Compensating that 'sink' with isk defeats that purpose. The numbers you quoted are also way too high. That would add up quickly enough to encourage people to get a buddy to pod them quickly. Originally by: Lifewire 3.) Bounty payout linked to pirates vessel This may serve to limit the payouts, but will also lessen the desire to hunt pirates for more than the current payout (loot). The elusive pods will still be the goal, but the rewards will be higher. This idea may have some merit, but would need some thinking through for balance purposes. Originally by: Lifewire 4.) more pirates I disagree with adding sec hits to 0.0 because then it is just like Empire. That being said, the idea of alliances being able to police their own space seems like a good one!
Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.14 15:14:00 - [10] Thx Zarq There are many people of alliances that dont like sec. hits in 0.0 - i know this and its ok that you want to shoot neutrals. But take some minutes and think about it twice - to get a real playerdriven universe the NPC-rats have to be replaced by player-rats step by step. This means instead of having 3 mil bounty NPC-rat in space, there must be really high bounty player rats. 500 men cannot do this job and i think we don¦t have more than 500 red ships in the whole galaxy. The alliance people that want to shoot neutrals have to accept their role: piracy! If you want to attack everyone, then you are a pirate player. So do not hide in alliances and behind "alliance warfare". If you gank whatever comes in front of your railguns, then you are not playing your role as alliance navy officer well - you actually simply dont know where you belong to, pirate?, piratehunter?, alliance navy? Checkout what you wanted to be when you started EVE? Good guy, bad guy? Find your role! Once you understand this, you will be fine with sec. hits. The idea to have autobountys would dramatically improve the game because broing chainfarming of NPCs would get replaced by much more interesting player pirate hunting. The payment will be ok! The enemys will not be as stupid as NPCs are - all in all this would make EVE great! To get this we need more pirates and we need bountyhunting fixed - there is no way arround this if we want a playerdriven game. Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/

Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.14 15:27:00 - [11] Quote: You say that you want MORE pirates, but then you say that you will take away insurance. I don't think that will encourage more people to pirate. Instead what will happen is that those that want to pirate will pirate, and when they lose a ship, most will go rat so that they can get their sec rating to insure their ship. This makes things LESS fun for pirates and therefore less pirates. The pirates in EVE have one big advantadge: they can attack whatever they want! This is a powerfull advantadge and believe me, i know what i talk of! We pirates have the choice: allways! We decide when the party happens and this advantadge is really powerfull! With this advantadge we dont need inssurances. Quote: This will serve to get bounties higher on the people who pirate a lot, but that only introduces more isk into the game and more inflation. Right now, one of the main 'sinks' in the game is the destruction of materials. Compensating that 'sink' with isk defeats that purpose. The numbers you quoted are also way too high. That would add up quickly enough to encourage people to get a buddy to pod them quickly. No, it replaces the NPC-chainfarming ISK! A piratehunter that hunts playerpirates cannot hunt NPCs meanwhile!!! Quote: This may serve to limit the payouts, but will also lessen the desire to hunt pirates for more than the current payout (loot). The elusive pods will still be the goal, but the rewards will be higher. This idea may have some merit, but would need some thinking through for balance purposes. Pods should not give a bounty - only the ship. Otherwise pirates mght podkill themselves. Quote: I disagree with adding sec hits to 0.0 because then it is just like Empire. That being said, the idea of alliances being able to police their own space seems like a good one! Its by far not like empire - sec. hits in 0.0 do not nerf combat, it just forces players to choose a role. If someone wants to gank neutrals, then he will "find" his role after 10-20 ganks: pirate! If he wants to be an alliance navy officer, then he has to take care of some basic rules: not kill neutrals outside his alliances territory. 0.0 would not get like empire - empire has sentry guns and Concord. To be true: the ideas i proposed would also favor another proffession: smugglers that support pirate corps with equipment. So player driven content is fully boosted with these ideas. Replace NPC-rats step by step with player rats. Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
Victoria Zongo Derelik Privateers	Posted - 2006.10.14 16:06:00 - [12] Edited by: Victoria Zongo on 14/10/2006 16:06:25 Well, sounds quite reasonable, including the 0.0 sec hits. "No insurance" can get people into unsolvable situations with no ships left and no cash for clones. I would rather see steps like: full insurance on frigates, half insurance on cruisers, nothing on battleships. If you get blown up too often, back to frigate piracy .. And finally, a shameless plug to my thread in the ideas forum. There is some similar stuff like suggested here. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405939
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon	Posted - 2006.10.14 16:21:00 - [13] I dont think this would work very well in current day EvE, perhaps another solution.... ----------------------------------------
Skybar	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:40:00 - [14] Introduce Bean-bag ammo or paintball ammo that you can use in 0,0. They do normal damage, but instead of the player getting killed and loose his ship, he's just being kicked out of that 0.0 region. That way, you really are policing your own territory, as police dont shoot people to kill, only to defend themselves :P --- No, it was a silly suggestion, but think there is a point somewhere in it :) Now I'm off for another beer. Keep this topic going!
Leikeze Mrotserif Murder-Death-Kill Blood Raiders Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:50:00 - [15] Edited by: Leikeze Mrotserif on 14/10/2006 17:52:27 If bounty was linked to the destroyed ships my head would be worth billions!! -------------------------------------
Don ZOLA Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.14 18:02:00 - [16] well something has to be done bout it, in this or other way, every other proffesion in eve can make much isk without any problems while pirates and anti pirates for same time spent working gain lot less isk.
Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.14 18:18:00 - [17] Edited by: Lifewire on 14/10/2006 18:18:42 Quote: well something has to be done bout it, in this or other way, every other proffesion in eve can make much isk without any problems while pirates and anti pirates for same time spent working gain lot less isk. This is actually very unfair - pirate hunters need hours to organise a good attack on a pirate camp. While industrial players can have free ISK all day, the piratehunters need to get covert ops and attack team into position, need to wait for a good moment to strike and have extreme risk of getting killed themselves! How can this be if we all know risk vs reward is a basic EVE element??? Piratehunters have high risk and no reward for their work. And with only 500 red ships in game, they don¦t have enough work at all! For me all those guys that attacked us are great players - they try to find a role and play it well. They should get some love of CCP. We had so much new content for the stupid NPC-chainers in this game - it¦s time for some content for the real men! Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
Dryxonedes Sae Whine Distillery	Posted - 2006.10.14 18:30:00 - [18] Having spoken with life on TS about exactly this, i agree in pretty much every way. Sec hits in 0.0, absolutely. Drop them way below current though. Have one set of sec hits for 0.5+, another for 0.1-0.4, and a final for 0.0. The final set should be minimal, but enough so that if your current place in eve is camping a gate for your alliance, you are going to notice it eventually. It also would force everyone to make that choice when it comes to destroying something, instead of 0.0 being a mindless zone where you can do as you please, it all catches up eventually. Possibly a little "change up" on the sec hit method, being an agression in 0.0 nets very minor hit, but the destruction hits as per low sec, thus allowing you to lock down, and intimidate, but if you want to take the final step, you take the hit. On the same note, drop the aggression on low sec stuff, encourage the agression, but raise the kill hit, discourage that = encourage the ransom? Pirates can farm non-pirates, so it ought to work the other way, which is what life is pushing towards. /signed. ** Where's the problem? It's called natural selection - The bottom of the **ing food chain. -Denis Leary
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2006.10.14 18:38:00 - [19] minus the 0.0 access restriction part. I support this idea 100%. has nothing to do with me being an Anti-Pirate ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild!
Jenial	Posted - 2006.10.14 18:59:00 - [20] Bounties and collecting them should be diectly linked to your standings and ratings. If you have minus rating/standing you should not get bounties from the CONCORD system. Players with better ratings/standings should get more ISK based on the amount bounty and standing of the pirate.

General Coochie	Posted - 2006.10.14 19:08:00 - [21] Edited by: General Coochie on 14/10/2006 19:11:22 I think all your suggestions are excellent except.. I do not agree with the "noob cannot enter 0.0" idea. I havent even got 2mill SP yet, but I dont think that it should restrict me from 0.0. I dont think restricting some players or characters from certain parts of the game is a good idea. Players with less then 2mill SP can do lots of things in 0.0. I understand the problem that arises, with alts, if everthing else should be implented. But I would like a different solution. Im fairly new to EvE but.. If an alliance have soverginity over a territory where its habitants dont get sec-hits wouldnt that alone provide an important counter vs spying alts? atleast from spying in that alliance's region(s). I think the sec hits in 0.0 is a very good idea. Way to much ppl out there take the opportunity to be evil for awhile in 0.0, setting upp bubbles, gate camp or whatever. And as you suggested this wouldnt affect players protecting their conquerd region. Maybe restricting trial accounts from 0.0 would be a better solution? Just adding an idea to the diskussion, didnt really thought much about it. Sorry to say I have no better alternative to counter the noob spy problem. I never even experienced it myself so I dont really know what its about, I can only reason about it. I just wanted to state my opinion and say that I agree with your basic idea, that pirate hunter needs to be buffed, and that I think your suggestions to realize this idea are almost perfect.
Acama	Posted - 2006.10.14 19:12:00 - [22] Sounds good, only problem is more people will npc their sec status above -2 before going out and pirating... Maybe people should only get bounties for shooting in low sec, not in 0.0, so the sec hits don't mean so much out there, especially as you can npc them back up before too long... sound good?
Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.14 19:52:00 - [23] Quote: I do not agree with the "noob cannot enter 0.0" idea. I havent even got 2mill SP yet, but I dont think that it should restrict me from 0.0. I dont think restricting some players or characters from certain parts of the game is a good idea. Ok, if you have an alliance that defens you, then you might make it as n00b in 0.0. I dont care where exactly the line is drawn: 2 mil skillpint, 1 mil skillpoint...the important thing is that riskfree zero-ISK-scouts (EVE slang: alts) should not enter 0.0. Especially not if those are in a n00b corp (you cannot declare war on n00bcorp). Thats why i think 0.0 should be restricted to player corps, alliances and if possible players with a certain age and skillpoint amount. Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
General Coochie	Posted - 2006.10.14 20:26:00 - [24] Edited by: General Coochie on 14/10/2006 20:33:51 Quote: Ok, if you have an alliance that defens you, then you might make it as n00b in 0.0. Exactly, you need a protective corp/allaince, but in return you also help the alliance. New chars can help an alliance or corp in 0.0 with hauling, mining, tackling even. Thats whats so nice about EvE - even newer characters can pretty soon get an important role in an op. Quote: I dont care where exactly the line is drawn: 2 mil skillpint, 1 mil skillpoint...the important thing is that riskfree zero-ISK-scouts (EVE slang: alts) should not enter 0.0. Especially not if those are in a n00b corp (you cannot declare war on n00bcorp). Thats why i think 0.0 should be restricted to player corps, alliances and if possible players with a certain age and skillpoint amount. Having the requirement that they cannot be in a noob corp seems as a pretty good partial solution to me. There can even be a "logical" roleplaying reason for this, as the (noob)corp dont let its members venture out to 0.0 because its to dangerous. I know there exists player owned corps with similar rules, Ive been in one with another char were we werent allowed in low-sec :) I dont know if this would be counterd by ppl making corps for their alts to join to avoid war-decs whenever needed. Then maybe make the corp creating time a bit longer if that would be the case? some days, a week. Just a thought, Instead of making players with low SP not beeing able to enter 0.0. I thought you were determined about the 2mill limit, to have a limit I can agree with, I think 2 mill is a bit high. Maybe its because Im still noob myself I am atleast pro these changes. I think it would make an EvE more fun to play.
Zarquon Beeblebrox Liberate Vos Ex Inferis	Posted - 2006.10.14 21:45:00 - [25] Edited by: Zarquon Beeblebrox on 14/10/2006 21:46:11 Im sure CCP are able to come up with a way to implement this and at the same time make sure 0.0 alliance space is not overflooded with alt spys, scouts and what not, missuing this fixes. "I meen comeone CCP came up with deadspace complexes, jump quea's, and many more exelent features" ;) (ok the quoted text was a joke) Anyway the basic of lifewires ides are good. Sure CCP are free to make equaly good solutions. The point is not that all of lifewires ides should be implemented as if. But rather that CCP are able to fix all of the isues lifewire try to fix with his ides. Make bounty work. Make a way for bounty hunters to have a role. Make sure you get sec hits for pirating in 0.0. Make sure pirates cant clame their own bountys. This things are the importent things. Only lifewire have also an ide how to fix them and they sure are better then any other ides iv heard so far. -- Lady Beeblebrox
karrak Ruffians	Posted - 2006.10.15 00:02:00 - [26] I like your bounty system Life but you know how i feel about sec hits inn 0.0. Thats a no go right there, i dont want 0.0 to turn into highsec minus the sentry's
Victoria Zongo Derelik Privateers	Posted - 2006.10.15 00:32:00 - [27] Edited by: Victoria Zongo on 15/10/2006 00:32:35 "0.0 is the frontier", "there is no Concord", etc .. Then who hands out all the sec increases for killing NPC rats? This is highly inconsistent and long overdue for being fixed. (edit: I can't spell)
karrak Ruffians	Posted - 2006.10.15 02:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Victoria Zongo Edited by: Victoria Zongo on 15/10/2006 00:32:35 "0.0 is the frontier", "there is no Concord", etc .. Then who hands out all the sec increases for killing NPC rats? This is highly inconsistent and long overdue for being fixed. (edit: I can't spell) You kill a npc faction pirate, you take his loot/his dna, his dog tags etc etc, there is a million ways that could bee explained.
vile56 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.15 02:18:00 - [29] ive already stated my point on the insuranse payout and neg sec. but since most people know already of the bob-ascn conflict ill use this, there still hasnt been a actual war dec, yet we are both at war. haveing sec hits in 0.0 would mean that concord rules over 0.0, and if concord oversees 0.0 then its claimed by a faction(since concord only oversees amarr,cally ect space), not player sov. so there would always be sec hits since u cant claim sov in a npc region. if u get a sec hit its a reconized npc factiont that owns it. i probaly typed this in a round about way, but i hope you get my point.
Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.15 03:33:00 - [30] Karrak, a player driven game (this means player "police", player pirates, player indutrials, player factions) can only happen in 0.0. Empire has to be seen as CCP sponsored n00b area. I dont understand why a 0.0 pirate has to enter Jita??? Why are you so hot on entering 1.0 systems with your pirate char??? You damage all proffessions the game has this way: 1.) Smugglers - they have no work since you simply go to Jita and buy stuff yourself. 2.) Pirate Hunters - they have no work because you are not -10.0 and have no bounty if you never receive sec hits for 0.0 piracy. 3.) Pirates - in 0.0 pirates might work like pirates, but they dont look like pirates. All ships are white, neutral, no one can say who is a "bad guy" and who is a "good guy". Nobody really fullfills his role in 0.0. Its just gladiators slaugthering each other. 4.) Industrial players - 3 years and still EVE has not a single real 0.0 market! And why? Because industrial players cannot enter 0.0 unless they are in an alliance and are part of the alliances war production wing. A player driven market in 0.0 needs a minimum security and this would be sec. hits. So the easy life 0.0 pvpers want (pirating and later go shopping in Jita), damages EVEs development to be a player driven game. It will never happen that EVE is truely player driven as long people are not forced to choose their role. Sec. hits force you into a role. If you want to shoot neutrals, you will sooner or later have a -10.0 sec. rating. Lets take a look at what would happen to the game if my proposed patch would be realised: 1.) Each player will have to choose: be navy officer, be pirate? Be smuggler? 2.) Piratehunters will have a job and get payment. 3.) Smuggler proffession will be created - they will smuggle goods to alliances like BOB that surely would soon be a red ship alliance. 4.) Industrial players will start to see 0.0 as market! With 20-40K red ships it will be a powerfull market. Tons of PVPers need equipment delivered. 5.) NPC rats bountys will be a joke compared to player bountys that can be collected. Step by step NPC-chainfarming will be replaced with 100% playerdriven content. This means hunting player pirates would really be a scource of income! 6.) "Show info" will actually say something about the pilots threat level. People that now are sitting in the empire prison will start to settle 0.0 because risks will be more predictable for them. The price to pay for this improvements: have a red ship and feel like RED BARON - i think this can be accepted. Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/

Zarquon Beeblebrox Liberate Vos Ex Inferis	Posted - 2006.10.15 04:35:00 - [31] Lifewire is so damn right it hurts. I wounder why people want to play in 0.0 and shoot everyone acting, reacting and playing exactly like pirates. But at the same time want to have +5 sec status and raice the white flag the moment they enter a low sec empire or empire it self. Its not fair, and it surly aint right. Everyone that have +5 sec status should be like "mother-in-laws favorite son" As they are carying the flag saying "Im a nice guys and wount shoot you" Only in 0.0 they can be as much pirate they want. If you got sec hits for shooting people in 0.0 that you aint in war with you are actualy pirating. Ofcource alliances need a way to close their space. Not physical as such but perhaps if there was implemented a way for alliances wich had POS suverenity in a system to configure the system in a way that said: This system can only be entered by alliance members and corp and players we have set to +10. Everyone else entering that system should get a message that they are breaking an alliance rule (much like pirates get when entering jita) and if you enter you are flaged a war target for the duration you spend in their system. People entering with out a positive sec status to the alliance/corp should be flaged red and can be shot down by the alliance with out taking sec hits. With that implemented alliances can make rules for who can enter their system. And enforce that rule by hostile force with out geting sec hit. At the same time in 0.0 systems where your alliance dont have suverenity you cant kill anyone exept war targets with out geting a sec hit. This system should be easy to implement as it actualy exsists for empire and -10 chars. Now add lifewires bounty system on top of this and it should all be happy happy joy joy. and we dont need to have a system where njubes, less the 2mil chars or what not cant enter 0.0. Alliances can make their own rules on who can enter and put hostile force with out sec hits to enforce it. -- Lady Beeblebrox
vile56 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.15 04:45:00 - [32] Originally by: Zarquon Beeblebrox Lifewire is so damn right it hurts. I wounder why people want to play in 0.0 and shoot everyone acting, reacting and playing exactly like pirates. But at the same time want to have +5 sec status and raice the white flag the moment they enter a low sec empire or empire it self. Its not fair, and it surly aint right. Everyone that have +5 sec status should be like "mother-in-laws favorite son" As they are carying the flag saying "Im a nice guys and wount shoot you" Only in 0.0 they can be as much pirate they want. If you got sec hits for shooting people in 0.0 that you aint in war with you are actualy pirating. Ofcource alliances need a way to close their space. Not physical as such but perhaps if there was implemented a way for alliances wich had POS suverenity in a system to configure the system in a way that said: This system can only be entered by alliance members and corp and players we have set to +10. Everyone else entering that system should get a message that they are breaking an alliance rule (much like pirates get when entering jita) and if you enter you are flaged a war target for the duration you spend in their system. People entering with out a positive sec status to the alliance/corp should be flaged red and can be shot down by the alliance with out taking sec hits. With that implemented alliances can make rules for who can enter their system. And enforce that rule by hostile force with out geting sec hit. At the same time in 0.0 systems where your alliance dont have suverenity you cant kill anyone exept war targets with out geting a sec hit. This system should be easy to implement as it actualy exsists for empire and -10 chars. Now add lifewires bounty system on top of this and it should all be happy happy joy joy. and we dont need to have a system where njubes, less the 2mil chars or what not cant enter 0.0. Alliances can make their own rules on who can enter and put hostile force with out sec hits to enforce it. even thou it dosent matter to you kids im sold with this one. make it happen
Famine Aligher'ri V i L e	Posted - 2006.10.15 05:11:00 - [33] Pirate hunters can't make isk because why? They can go into empire and mine OR agent mission behind concord. We can not... Pirate hunters have sentry on there side. We do not... Means we lose all suprize on our opponents. They still get it... I know you like having 5v5 battles at planets or something but that's not me. I actually like ambushing people at gates or stations without tanking sentry or sniping. What else what else hrrm. You should come to Molden Heath sometime. Where the pirate-hunters is a big huge empire alliance with a vagabond BPO and WCS's. Then maybe you will take back those statements on giving more empire bears more ISK while hiding behind sentry guards and stations in every system. Vile - Recruiting Pirates
Zarquon Beeblebrox Liberate Vos Ex Inferis	Posted - 2006.10.15 05:32:00 - [34] Edited by: Zarquon Beeblebrox on 15/10/2006 05:33:12 Originally by: vile56 Originally by: Zarquon Beeblebrox Lifewire is so damn right it hurts. I wounder why people want to play in 0.0 and shoot everyone acting, reacting and playing exactly like pirates. But at the same time want to have +5 sec status and raice the white flag the moment they enter a low sec empire or empire it self. Its not fair, and it surly aint right. Everyone that have +5 sec status should be like "mother-in-laws favorite son" As they are carying the flag saying "Im a nice guys and wount shoot you" Only in 0.0 they can be as much pirate they want. If you got sec hits for shooting people in 0.0 that you aint in war with you are actualy pirating. Ofcource alliances need a way to close their space. Not physical as such but perhaps if there was implemented a way for alliances wich had POS suverenity in a system to configure the system in a way that said: This system can only be entered by alliance members and corp and players we have set to +10. Everyone else entering that system should get a message that they are breaking an alliance rule (much like pirates get when entering jita) and if you enter you are flaged a war target for the duration you spend in their system. People entering with out a positive sec status to the alliance/corp should be flaged red and can be shot down by the alliance with out taking sec hits. With that implemented alliances can make rules for who can enter their system. And enforce that rule by hostile force with out geting sec hit. At the same time in 0.0 systems where your alliance dont have suverenity you cant kill anyone exept war targets with out geting a sec hit. This system should be easy to implement as it actualy exsists for empire and -10 chars. Now add lifewires bounty system on top of this and it should all be happy happy joy joy. and we dont need to have a system where njubes, less the 2mil chars or what not cant enter 0.0. Alliances can make their own rules on who can enter and put hostile force with out sec hits to enforce it. even thou it dosent matter to you kids im sold with this one. make it happen It matters friend. Lifewire is a pirate and is sugesting fixes to the game that would make his came harder. He knows that the pirates have such an advantage to day, that it actualy make piracy boring, uninteresting and repeatative. I say if everyone made sure they played the game in such a way that their foes had fun. You would make your own game equaly fun. Neither lifewire nor me want to nerf the game for anyone with this(his) ides. Nai not even bob or alliances. You guys play an importent role in eve and are making plenityde of content for us all to play with. Lifewire want to do the same playing his role. And the naturate group for him to create content to is the group hunting him. Cheers, and good luck with Bob and the rest of us =) -- Lady Beeblebrox
Famine Aligher'ri V i L e	Posted - 2006.10.15 06:35:00 - [35] Still don't understand how giving high security empire players more ISK options when they already have it + sentry on there side is a good idea. Maybe that's just me talking though. I mean I look at the game differently. I see a empire anti-pirate as having the advantage over me in income and combat. We get our ISK from combat, as they do. Vile - Recruiting Pirates
Zarquon Beeblebrox Liberate Vos Ex Inferis	Posted - 2006.10.15 08:05:00 - [36] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Still don't understand how giving high security empire players more ISK options when they already have it + sentry on there side is a good idea. Maybe that's just me talking though. I mean I look at the game differently. I see a empire anti-pirate as having the advantage over me in income and combat. We get our ISK from combat, as they do. I think you have miss read something or not read it at all. Noone is sugestiong to give low sec empire players more isk. You comment in this post that "We get isk from combat" And thats exactly whats wrong for the pirate hunter role. They dont get isk from combat because the bounty system is screwed. Lifewires sugestion is to make sure also the bounty hunter profession can live by combat and dont have to play vs NPC to get their isk. I sugest you go back to the top of the thread and check if perhaps you have miss read something. -- Lady Beeblebrox
Jesnen	Posted - 2006.10.15 08:55:00 - [37] theres a group of people who get paid to make impartial decisions on issues such as these, ccp. so everybody who has a billion different ideas on how to make the game better, stfu, leave it to the experts.
Alekseyev Karrde The Royal Guard	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:05:00 - [38] in short: /signed I also like the idea of allowing alliances to set the security levels for their soveriegn space, creating the opportunity for player law, player police, and as a contrast: pirate kingdoms (an alliance area which specifcicly wont allow high sec people from entering their space). 0.0 is not lawless space, it's player-space. And it's about time we were able to fully realize this.
Zarquon Beeblebrox Liberate Vos Ex Inferis	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:14:00 - [39] Originally by: Jesnen theres a group of people who get paid to make impartial decisions on issues such as these, ccp. so everybody who has a billion different ideas on how to make the game better, stfu, leave it to the experts. So you are saying CCP have never implemented any thing into the game that was based on a player/community sugestion ? I for sure remember once CCP came out asking what the miners was expecting of features from the mining marges. How about you bring something constructive to the discussion rather then plainly taking a dump on it. -- Lady Beeblebrox
Martin Law Armoured Assassins	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:57:00 - [40] i do not agree on some points, there should allways be lawless space in this game where u can do whatever. Plus pick a role when u start the game dont count in EVE man. there's so many things to explore in this game, and even when u picked a role why should u stick to it? i agree on some points but 0.0 should be untouched Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected])

Famine Aligher'ri V i L e	Posted - 2006.10.15 10:02:00 - [41] Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 15/10/2006 10:05:08 Originally by: Zarquon Beeblebrox Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Still don't understand how giving high security empire players more ISK options when they already have it + sentry on there side is a good idea. Maybe that's just me talking though. I mean I look at the game differently. I see a empire anti-pirate as having the advantage over me in income and combat. We get our ISK from combat, as they do. I think you have miss read something or not read it at all. Noone is sugestiong to give low sec empire players more isk. You comment in this post that "We get isk from combat" And thats exactly whats wrong for the pirate hunter role. They dont get isk from combat because the bounty system is screwed. Lifewires sugestion is to make sure also the bounty hunter profession can live by combat and dont have to play vs NPC to get their isk. I sugest you go back to the top of the thread and check if perhaps you have miss read something. We get isk from combat (Loot and Ransom). When you claim yourself as a bounty/pirate hunter does the loot from combat vanish? - Pirate gains isk from combat. - Anti Pirate gains isk from combat. - Bounty Hunter gains isk from combat (Including bounty). Now not all of us have bounties. Yes, you don't get bounty ISK from killing me and I am a pirate. However, that's not a problem. Bounties are placed by players and yourself. There are bounty players out there, very rare no dout. Better bounty system could be useful, but to say a bounty/pirate hunter deserves ISK from killing me + my loot is pretty pushing it in the wrong direction. Being like I said, I live off loot and show shall they. Everything else is just players not getting loot thus not getting kills on our pirate foes. Vile - Recruiting Pirates
Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.15 10:25:00 - [42] Quote: We get isk from combat (Loot and Ransom). When you claim yourself as a bounty/pirate hunter does the loot from combat vanish? A piratehunter that plays his role 100% cannot simply pop any hauler he sees an cannot grab a lot of loot - piratehunters don¦t have an income. The NPC rats have to be replaced step by step with player rats if we want a truely player driven game. And you are one of these rats, lets say a 500K one Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
karrak Ruffians	Posted - 2006.10.15 11:26:00 - [43] 1: You are highly over estimating the people that would bee willing to go red. Making your idea about replacing npc content with players daft. There are a very large amount of people playing this game for pve, do you really want them to go back to wow so we can have a couple of proffesions? 2: Noone would actually move their t2 ship bpo's to 0.0, so the only way to actually get t2 ships inn there would bee a freighter now the smuggler suddenly need's a large infrastructure and support to do his job. 3: Minerals are scarce inn 0.0 making manufacturing hard. 4: It will encourage alts/second accounts to pick up and move ships from empire to lowsec. 5: This game isnt about proffesions and job's, we have other games for that. Its about fun and while you see this as the perfect game il bet you a very large amount of people would not.
cat man	Posted - 2006.10.15 11:29:00 - [44] Originally by: GenePool Chlorinator I dunno that I agree with most of your points :( Originally by: Lifewire Edited by: Lifewire on 14/10/2006 12:44:20 1.) Bounty+inssurance patch You say that you want MORE pirates, but then you say that you will take away insurance. I don't think that will encourage more people to pirate. Instead what will happen is that those that want to pirate will pirate, and when they lose a ship, most will go rat so that they can get their sec rating to insure their ship. This makes things LESS fun for pirates and therefore less pirates. true but this would get miners and ratters out to low sec more as there be more time in between pirates going in to the system
randy andy	Posted - 2006.10.15 11:33:00 - [45] Originally by: cat man You say that you want MORE pirates, but then you say that you will take away insurance. I don't think that will encourage more people to pirate. Instead what will happen is that those that want to pirate will pirate, and when they lose a ship, most will go rat so that they can get their sec rating to insure their ship. This makes things LESS fun for pirates and therefore less pirates. true but this would get miners and ratters out to low sec more as there be more time in between pirates going in to the system yep agreed as at the moment trying to mine or rat and you might get ransomed/blown up every 2-5 mins so not worth mining or ratting in near by low sec to empire. so for non-pvpers the only reason to go to low sec is to get to another high sec system quickier
randy andy	Posted - 2006.10.15 11:37:00 - [46] Edited by: randy andy on 15/10/2006 11:38:17 Originally by: randy andy Originally by: cat man You say that you want MORE pirates, but then you say that you will take away insurance. I don't think that will encourage more people to pirate. Instead what will happen is that those that want to pirate will pirate, and when they lose a ship, most will go rat so that they can get their sec rating to insure their ship. This makes things LESS fun for pirates and therefore less pirates. true but this would get miners and ratters out to low sec more as there be more time in between pirates going in to the system yep agreed as at the moment trying to mine or rat and you might get ransomed/blown up every 2-5 mins so not worth mining or ratting in near by low sec to empire. so for non-pvpers the only reason to go to low sec is to get to another high sec system quickier and before you say get guards that works for a short time but they get bored just sitting there doing nothing once the pirates know not to attack that group, so after a few ops back to no guards
Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.15 11:45:00 - [47] Quote: 1: You are highly over estimating the people that would bee willing to go red. Making your idea about replacing npc content with players daft. There are a very large amount of people playing this game for pve, do you really want them to go back to wow so we can have a couple of proffesions? Once a player has seen EVE, WOW is not an option anymore. WOW has no risk, it¦s a baby and mainstream game. And let some of them leave - reduces server lag. Quote: 2: Noone would actually move their t2 ship bpo's to 0.0, so the only way to actually get t2 ships inn there would bee a freighter now the smuggler suddenly need's a large infrastructure and support to do his job. If 0.0 has 20k-40k red ships, then this is a market! A market needs haulers to deliver stuff or producers in 0.0. There will also be smuggling. The stuff is needed in 0.0!!! It will be there because it is needed there!!! Quote: 3: Minerals are scarce inn 0.0 making manufacturing hard. As soon there is a market, you will find everything in 0.0. The red pilots cannot go to empire, so they need the stuff delivered. This improves 0.0 traffic. Quote: 4: It will encourage alts/second accounts to pick up and move ships from empire to lowsec. That is why there must be a minimum skillpoint amount to enter 0.0. Quote: 5: This game isnt about proffesions and job's, we have other games for that. Its about fun and while you see this as the perfect game il bet you a very large amount of people would not. Sorry, but this is plain wrong. If you were right then the test server would do it to PVP there (unlimited funds for everybody). How comes a test battle on the testserver will never give you the rush of adrenaline like it does on tranq??? If you really only enjoy the battles, then go to testserver and battle all day there! The reason why tranq is better is that there are proffessions, roles, roleplay, production and that every loss hurts. Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
Endorphin Lai Svefn-G-Englar	Posted - 2006.10.15 12:34:00 - [48] /Signed to Lifewire's ideas - simply fantastic. What about adding sec gains for killing players with negative sec status? This would encourage more anti-pirates, and help to distinguish further the 'good' guys from the 'bad'.
karrak Ruffians	Posted - 2006.10.15 13:19:00 - [49] Originally by: Lifewire Edited by: Lifewire on 15/10/2006 11:46:16 Quote: 1: You are highly over estimating the people that would bee willing to go red. Making your idea about replacing npc content with players daft. There are a very large amount of people playing this game for pve, do you really want them to go back to wow so we can have a couple of proffesions? Once a player has seen EVE, WOW is not an option anymore. WOW has no risk, it¦s a baby and mainstream game. And let some of them leave - reduces server lag. wow has it good sides, so has eve. And there are plenty of people inn this game that dosnt like risk. Quote: 2: Noone would actually move their t2 ship bpo's to 0.0, so the only way to actually get t2 ships inn there would bee a freighter now the smuggler suddenly need's a large infrastructure and support to do his job. If 0.0 has 20k-40k red ships, then this is a market! A market needs haulers to deliver stuff or it needs producers in 0.0. There will also be smuggling. The stuff is needed in 0.0!!! It will be there because it is needed there!!! Again you are highly overestimating the number of people willing to go red. Producing inn 0.0 is daft as the mineral markets are non existant. Smugling would bee non existant as a VERY large amount of people allready have alts with enough sp to fly freighter's/bs etc etc. It wont bee there because people wont bother with it, much easier to have an alt go get it Quote: 3: Minerals are scarce inn 0.0 making manufacturing hard. As soon there is a market, you will find everything in 0.0. The red pilots cannot go to empire, so they need the stuff delivered. This improves 0.0 traffic. You will NEVER see a well supplyed, healthy market inn 0.0. And you certantly wont see it with todays limited accses points to 0.0 Quote: 4: It will encourage alts/second accounts to pick up and move ships from empire to lowsec. That is why there must be a minimum skillpoint amount to enter 0.0. And how long does it take an alt to bee able to move a bs?? Not very long im afraid, how manny corp's do you know that dosnt have alt capable of flying an freighter? no a whole manny Quote: 5: This game isnt about proffesions and job's, we have other games for that. Its about fun and while you see this as the perfect game il bet you a very large amount of people would not. Sorry, but this is plain wrong. If you were right then the test server would do it to PVP there (unlimited funds for everybody). How comes a test battle on the testserver will never give you the rush of adrenaline like it does on tranq??? If you really only enjoy the battles, then go to testserver and battle all day there! The reason why tranq is better is that there are proffessions, roles, roleplay, production and that every loss hurts. You just said so yourself, you risk something on tq. Risking a week worth of farming dosnt have annything to do with proffesions at all But im not gonna bother with this argument as there are 3 people inn here that will never budge on their views, you know who you are
happymappy Amarr Finis Lumen Muffins of Mayhem	Posted - 2006.10.15 15:22:00 - [50] 0.0 is lawless space to have sec hits there is stupid imho, lets say a dude comes into my home system and i pod him i lose tons of sec defending my home space nice.

Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.15 15:40:00 - [51] Edited by: Lifewire on 15/10/2006 15:41:41 Karrak, i expect of a good mmog that the different careers get developped and not only new shipclasses. New shipclasses only cause new balancing work. EVE needs real content and improved careers that players can choose and also change from time to time. If you like to shot neutrals and i know you do like it, then pay the price for these acts of piracy - do not hide. You want to pirate then have a pirate flag (red ship) an have a high bounty on your a$$ so piratehunters can enjoy hunting you. Also accept that you are thrown out of empire so the industrial players get a market in 0.0. And if you move your alt to buy in empire, then this alt is actually a smuggler or industrial player that other pirates can hunt. You say there wont be enough people that want a red ship - who cares? They will get a red ship if they shoot neutrals and stay white if they act like navy officers. Nobody would leave EVE. People that say "i will leave if i get sec. hits" are a joke and from my view welcome to leave the game since they are not hard enough for EVE. EVE is brutal and that¦s why it will allways roxor compared to WOW. Kali bringing only new ships and new NPC-locations/missions will not improve anything. You can play a 20 year old game to have that: ELITE. There you have NPC-missions and different shiptypes - you dont need EVE for this. EVE is a multiplayer game and the more NPC-elements are replaced with real players, the better this multiplayer game will be. A truely player driven EVE should not have NPCs at all. There would be the roids and concord bountys as basic source of minerals/ISK. And there would be 100.000 players that choose their role: pirate, piratehunter, industrial, smuggler, navy officer, mercenairy or whatever. This would be 100% player driven game. What we have right now is a 99% NPC-driven universe. I would like to see CCP do step by step to a truely player driven game and step 1 would be to slowly replace the NPC-rats with player rats. Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
wictro	Posted - 2006.10.15 16:02:00 - [52] Edited by: wictro on 15/10/2006 16:03:53 Edited by: wictro on 15/10/2006 16:03:22 Amen! I support. Wictro EDIT: i knew that the avatar issue excisted, but didnt think it took this long to update it here ? I've been playing 5-6 weeks.
Brazero Amarr Noble House	Posted - 2006.10.15 16:39:00 - [53] Edited by: Brazero on 15/10/2006 16:44:13 Originally by: Endorphin Lai /Signed to Lifewire's ideas - simply fantastic. What about adding sec gains for killing players with negative sec status? This would encourage more anti-pirates, and help to distinguish further the 'good' guys from the 'bad'. Feckings crappy forums, my post vanished But I support the OP, good ideas all of them. I also have thought about why there is no sec gain from killing a negative sec pilot, pirate or not. And insurance, need alot of reworking. The current insurance system is just lame. *********************
karrak Ruffians	Posted - 2006.10.15 16:46:00 - [54] You might like it but i doupt ccp's wallet will like it, and its their wallet that will win out inn the end ;) Loosing sub's due to rather large changes to the core mechanics isnt a very good buisness plan. You cant remove the npc factions and replace them with players its simply impossible. Count the number of systems inn eve, now imagine there are npc's inn every belt, now add concord ontop of that. Thats allot of space to fill up. As ive said a market inn 0.0 a fesable thing Can you actually picture the ccp director saying so what if we loose half our player base, Eve is a hardocore game?
Mi Lai Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.15 16:56:00 - [55] I dont see any need to change the system as it is. First of all, making pirating harder, as your suggestion of removing insurance will do, will remove it as viable playstyle to young players. The older pirates tend to have other sources of income (shares, BPO's, trained up alts, bookmarks into 0.0 to rat) so can easily deal with this. So instead of getting more pirates, you will end up with less. Second, there are allready a lot of 'pirates' out there that take care of their sec.status, ie. they do shoot neutrals in Empire and perhaps even suicide-gank the occassional hauler, but they 'fix' their security status to prevent getting lower then -1.9 for to long. Your suggestion will in my opinion lead to loads of people fixing their sec status and go in the Empire war / grieving business (I know I would if something like this is introduced), and will see the true outlaw pirates become a much rarer breed. At least in low sec, everyone knows the risk. When a lot of the current pirates take on empire wars, even the most devoted high sec dweller in a corp wont be safe. Finally, the bounty system may indeed not be working as intended, but why would we need further game mechanics to help us out there? If I was a poor lonesome carebear getting harassed by ebil piwates, there is a flourishing player created merc business out there allready to help you find retribution for ISK.
Kal Oman Delta Desperados	Posted - 2006.10.15 17:56:00 - [56] Forgive me if I ran over some of the details of your (OP) post or any that posted afterwards, I kinda did a speed read and I suck at that :P. I like the topic and it sounds really fun, but I have a question. Who is the pirate and who is the pirate-hunter? I don't think sec status alone can be used to determine this. I know folks who hunt pirates in lowsec that have low sec status themselves. If it was the sec status that determined this, perhaps players could "raise the pirate flag" per se and identify themselves as the pirate in this battle. Than some of your ideas could be implemented. Of course if a person tags himself as a pirate, he should get some bonuses also since he is subjecting himself to these additional hardships you presented. In this state, if a pirate cannot claim insurance on his ship if popped, than he should get an auto-ransom for destroying any ship. Some value for each ship type killed goes into the pirates wallet. Pods will still be available for a more personal ransom . Good stuff!, although I have never pirated in EvE, I believe pirating is what makes EvE really special.
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2006.10.15 20:46:00 - [57] Since i've started pirate hunting I have to say that I agree. A well organised team of pirate hunters can take on the random two-bit pirates quite easily, as any sort of resistence seems to send them into a panic, although I imagine that those facing tun-dragon must find things a bit more challenging. The main problem with the profession is not the risk vs reward but rather the fact that its far too difficult to find targets. With safe spots, and sniping, and alt-spys, and insta-docking combined with the severe lack of low sec pirates getting kills is a lot of hard work. Sure we can ambush a new group of pirates in an area but after that they know to watch for us in local. If we have the numbers to pose a threat, they run and hide. Obviously this is not true of all pirates, but a large portion of them, and why not? Why should they risk fighting when its more profitable to kill the unsuspecting? If ccp fix the problems with piracy: I.E. not enough incentive to go to low sec, flagging, etc. and encourage more people to become pirates. The pirate hunters will be very happy, or atleast this one will. anyway, those are my random thoughts on the matter
LittleTerror Caldari Beer and Kebabs Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.15 22:03:00 - [58] I agree with all except having no insurance for pirates, I'll only agree to that one when they remove sentry guns from empire low sec space, so that i can fit a propper PVP fit and give anti pirates a good kicking ! Cos lets face if your gate camping and tanking sentrys not sniping and some pirate hunters come your screwed with target jams etc etc. ___________________________________________________ I want your stuff
Scoundrelus Unseen Jihad	Posted - 2006.10.16 03:57:00 - [59] Pirate Hunters already have a lot of love. They can pick off pirates one by one at gates/stations and all the pirates can do is warp away to a planet and hope the anti-pies follow (which they usually won't). Anti-pies have plenty of ways to make money as do pirates, I see no problem with the current system. Also with the introduction of contracts in Kali perhaps we may see more ways of collecting bounties. =============================================== We are Watching You.
raVn666 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.16 06:24:00 - [60] I really like this bountysystem Lifevire, and think the changes will be of the good. Though I dont agree you should get sec-hits for killing in 0.0, cause there is no justise in 0.0 , the survival of the strongest. And.. It would also make it much easier to defend an area you have soveregnity in, cause the attackers wont be able to enter highsec again , and the ones witch already have soveregnity can easily hunt in other areas and npc in theyr own system to repear theyr sec , giving them a huge advantage. I think we will get more big alliances by this , spesially since corp cant claim soveregnity. A second thing ... The empire carebears and 0.0 warriors should be forced to lowsec to take missions. If a change like this is gonna happen there should also be an increase in amount of targets for pirates , and I mean 50% of lv3 missions and all lv4 missions and up should be put to lowsec. That would increase traffick to lowsec system alot and make them alive again.

Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.10.16 08:47:00 - [61] As i said in the other thread the insurance change is POS ,sorry but it is ,it is just going to change the balance .There will be no NEWBIE pirates if this change becomes true. Everyone will change to bounty-hunter ,and will have a blast .Bounty-hunters already have the advantage as famine said sentrys?They can shoot us without being agressed by the sentry's?And don't have ss penalties for doing that.
Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.16 11:13:00 - [62] I think we can all agree on piracy should be the hardest proffession. At the moment piratehunting is the hardest because they are no good bountys and those are payed on the pod. Somebody said here, everybody will become piratehunter if these changes that i propose would happen. This would not be bad for the game - actually the lack of bountyhunters caused that CCP had to implement sentry guns and Concord (NPC-elements) that fullfill the role of bountyhunters. Lets say we would have 40K bountyhunters in the game - those would replace another NPC element - perfect! Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
Shinshi Casoyako	Posted - 2006.10.16 12:32:00 - [63] I smell abuse. I fly a BS and have -9 security standing. A friend has the same. We insure our ships and we kill each other every time. We only pay 36 mil for our insurance and blow up ourselves with a BS unfitted. We take 50 mil bounty in the process. So we make 14 mil everytime we blow each other up. back to the drawing board. . Seriously Have I Not Said How I Can Assist Some One You Are Killing Online?
Zarquon Beeblebrox Liberate Vos Ex Inferis	Posted - 2006.10.16 12:42:00 - [64] For everyone hanging them self up in the one thing with sec hits in 0.0 and not able to defent their space.... If you have a POS with suverenity in a system. You sould be able to configure the POS with who are allowed to enter the system with out beeing attacked. So you set all your alliance +10 for the system. You have a friend corp you set them +10 to the system. And all your alts +10 to the system. Then when someoen not having +10 t0 the system enter they get a message like the one -10 pirates get when entering Jita. That message tells them that entering this space is breaking the alliance rule and if entering you will be marked a war target for the time you spend in that system. Now the alliance defending their system can kill you with out taking sec hits. In systems where you dont have suverenity your alliance is not really owning. So if you just shoot anyone you will get a sec hit. Ofcource people you have a registered concord war with you can kill with out sec hit anywheare. I dont see how this could not work for both, nutrals, pirates, and alliances. -- Lady Beeblebrox
Zarquon Beeblebrox Liberate Vos Ex Inferis	Posted - 2006.10.16 12:45:00 - [65] Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako I smell abuse. I fly a BS and have -9 security standing. A friend has the same. We insure our ships and we kill each other every time. We only pay 36 mil for our insurance and blow up ourselves with a BS unfitted. We take 50 mil bounty in the process. So we make 14 mil everytime we blow each other up. back to the drawing board. No, you cant insure your ship. Thats the whole point. When a pirate enter a ship that was insured by corp or someone else the insurence on the ships is deleted and not payed out. -- Lady Beeblebrox
raVn666 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.16 13:39:00 - [66] Originally by: Zarquon Beeblebrox For everyone hanging them self up in the one thing with sec hits in 0.0 and not able to defent their space.... If you have a POS with suverenity in a system. You sould be able to configure the POS with who are allowed to enter the system with out beeing attacked. So you set all your alliance +10 for the system. You have a friend corp you set them +10 to the system. And all your alts +10 to the system. Then when someoen not having +10 t0 the system enter they get a message like the one -10 pirates get when entering Jita. That message tells them that entering this space is breaking the alliance rule and if entering you will be marked a war target for the time you spend in that system. Now the alliance defending their system can kill you with out taking sec hits. In systems where you dont have suverenity your alliance is not really owning. So if you just shoot anyone you will get a sec hit. Ofcource people you have a registered concord war with you can kill with out sec hit anywheare. I dont see how this could not work for both, nutrals, pirates, and alliances. I love you ♥ But still disagree with you I think this will give the big alliances just another tool to claim big regions for themself. For attacking groups trying to win space they will suffer under the fact that they cant enter highsec to buy new ships and equipment to contain the pressure on a region. It will make them depend on eatchother doin logistick runs to empire and it will for sure slow them down in a evt siege With all the poswars going , will we make it even harder to attack settled alliances?
Zarquon Beeblebrox Liberate Vos Ex Inferis	Posted - 2006.10.16 13:42:00 - [67] Thank god not even nostradamus was right in most of his predictions. Im pretty sure you aint either. Lets keep to sugesting fixes for the problems we know are around, and let CCP predict about the future shall we :P -- Lady Beeblebrox
raVn666 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.16 13:45:00 - [68] Originally by: Zarquon Beeblebrox Thank god not even nostradamus was right in most of his predictions. Im pretty sure you aint either. Lets keep to sugesting fixes for the problems we know are around, and let CCP predict about the future shall we :P pfft nostradamus was just a noob ... but me... well
darth solo Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.16 14:04:00 - [69] i grew tired of all of EVE saying there is no pirates in EVE, while the same ppl would call us pirates in a diff thread. so i think its a lost trade that CCP have no interest in. d solo.
Bailian Moxtain	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:19:00 - [70] Have to sign this. I like the ideas! But podding should give u the bounty ( as it is now ), not shipkill My english realy s***ed in this post, but im very tired

God forbid Amarr Mithril Inc	Posted - 2006.10.16 22:06:00 - [71] Aight.. We got some nice Ideas here thats for sure.. But I think we would get just alittle bit to many bounty hunters if this would get in game, I mean The pirate doesnt get anything if he kills a bounty hunter only the loot.. So I think piracy will be much less money incoming, and if you would take the insurence out for pirates they would get in some money problems who likes that noone, atleast not me.. Quote: "He did not know, Who he was ******* with."
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.16 22:08:00 - [72] Let's see here. There are 4 points in Lifewire's original post, and I agree with 3 of them. Insurance and bounty I really like the concept that CONCORD would also pay bounties for player pirates. The current player bounty system just doesn't work, and will be adequately replaced with the contract system as such - get money for presenting a <insert name> corpse. That Pend Insurance wouldn't deal with such extreme risk contractors as -2.0 players or lower is only natural. Ship bounty I presume that you mean that CONCORD will pay bounty equal to 40% of ship base value, if there is bounty to be payed, divided to all in gang - as per normal NPC pirate payouts? How will pod destruction payouts be handled? 50% of total bounty? All of it? 0.0 and security status hits This is where I disagree. There are two differences between 0.0 and low sec - the pansy sentry guns are gone and there are no security status hits. Oh, and bubbles. The main point of security status is that it is CONCORD standing. In 0.0 CONCORD has no surveillance at all, they are even expressively forbidden from enforcing any laws in 0.0 space. How would an alliance enforce it's territory? Everyone would be "pirates" eventually. You can't declare war on each and every one who trespasses, you don't have the war slots for that, money for it, time for it, nor the empire logistics to handle so many wars. Hell, you may not even operate on NBSI and be really friendly with the other party as long as they stick on the right side of the imaginary line. No, security hits must not be given in 0.0 for practical reasons - especially the reasons Lifewire gave as being negative in the OP are in fact positive as far as 0.0 and the game is concerned. To put it shortly: there aren't many pirates in 0.0. Nowhere near as many as in low sec. And I'm not talking about security status here, I'm talking about how they act. "Material destruction is an ISK sink" Not posted by Lifewire. Material destruction is a material sink in the game. There are two very different things: materials and money. Essentially, when a ship is destroyed it adds money and removes a material. It's not an "isk sink", it's a materials sink. It's actually an "isk well" - it creates isk. Lifewire's suggestion essentially redistributed the isk well from the losing party to the victorious party, as long as the losing party is a low security status player. - What am I listening to?
Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.16 22:42:00 - [73] @Ithildin: You forget that it is important for a player driven game to replace NPC rats with player rats. And to replace Concord with player bountyhunters. 0.0 is full of pirates - its just a question of your view. They are there, all that has to be done is to give them a red ship. Combined with the bounry patch i proposed, EVE would mutate to a truely player driven game within 1-2 months. This means we would have 10-20K pirates in 0.0 and have even more piratehunters that try to kill those. There would also be alliances that would not shoot neutrals outside their territory - they would be called alliance navy officers. Those alliances that attack neutrals outside their territory would be called pirate player faction. NPC-chaining would be a lousy job compared to player-pirate-hunting. Since player pirate factions would not be able to enter empire, a market in 0.0 HAS TO EXIST! The demand will be there and so the industrial players will see it. And when industrial players smell ISK... So the pirates in 0.0 will automatically cause that 0.0 or low sec get interesting for industrial players. Don¦t forget: these -10.0 players need the equipment and ships!!! Somehow the stuff has to reach them in 0.0. It does not mather if they use alts or if real industrial players discover this market in 0.0 - the traffic will be the same: tons of goods and ships have to be moved to the 0.0 pirates, piratehunters and navy officers. This is how 0.0 gets settled, this is how EVE gets a player driven game. All the NPC $hit and new shipclasses will not make EVE much better - the real content has to be player driven. Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.17 01:47:00 - [74] Edited by: Lifewire on 17/10/2006 01:47:47 I listed up how i expect my ideas to work: 1.) Sec. hits in 0.0 concord ship-linked-auto-bounty on pirate ship ---> 2.) more red ships more piratehunters new profession navy officer new profession bounty hunter less people that can enter 1.0 but that still need equipment less NPC-chainfarming, more produced items needed ---> 3.) Markets in 0.0 and low sec. (since pirates cannot enter Jita) new profession smuggler/trader Industrial players in 0.0 More traffic to 0.0 ---> 4.) more piracy more sec hits more Concord autobounty ---> 2.) So once done this process will cause a massive change in EVE. If you ask me: it will extremly improve EVE and help a lot to get it a playerdriven game. It is possible that some people dont like it and that they leave, but on long term only a player driven game can keep players fascinated. We all play a role in this game, we need the tools to play it right. Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
Famine Aligher'ri V i L e	Posted - 2006.10.17 05:11:00 - [75] It's not really player controlled if you're forcing systems on a player by game mechanics :P Vile - Recruiting Pirates
Derelyk	Posted - 2006.10.17 05:46:00 - [76] How about splitting the bounty? 30% ship / 70% pod.. or whatever..
Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.17 10:24:00 - [77] Quote: How about splitting the bounty? 30% ship / 70% pod.. or whatever.. If the bounty is on the pod there will allways be people that podkill themselves with an alt. If not to get the money, then to get rid of all the bounty hunters Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
Taipan Gedscho Taipan Industries	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:25:00 - [78] ok, tbh, i just read the first page... but i like the ideas you got, and just thought, id drop you a post, to keep the thread on top, and show my appreciation. maybe i shouldve done it, when the thread appears from front page ;) but this is prolly not gonna happen anyway. to the sec hit in 0.0/dont allow people to enter thing: 1) total restriction is bad. doesnt fit the general idea of eve imho. 2) i dont have much knowledge about 0.0 space, but how about this: in an area you hold sovereignity you are allowed to shoot neutrals/hostiles without a sec hit. maybe even podkilling without a sec hit? every kill/aggression in an area you dont own yields sec hits.
Tommy Vercetti Minmatar Custodes Valhallae Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.17 14:34:00 - [79] Originally by: Lifewire Edited by: Lifewire on 17/10/2006 01:47:47 I listed up how i expect my ideas to work: 1.) Sec. hits in 0.0 concord ship-linked-auto-bounty on pirate ship ---> 2.) more red ships more piratehunters new profession navy officer new profession bounty hunter less people that can enter 1.0 but that still need equipment less NPC-chainfarming, more produced items needed ---> 3.) Markets in 0.0 and low sec. (since pirates cannot enter Jita) new profession smuggler/trader Industrial players in 0.0 More traffic to 0.0 ---> 4.) more piracy more sec hits more Concord autobounty ---> 2.) So once done this process will cause a massive change in EVE. If you ask me: it will extremly improve EVE and help a lot to get it a playerdriven game. It is possible that some people dont like it and that they leave, but on long term only a player driven game can keep players fascinated. We all play a role in this game, we need the tools to play it right. Your not really convincing me that those ideas push a player driven game. NPC markets in 0.0, limited or no insurance on pirates ships, sounds like more rules and non player controlled aspects entering the game. Plus I fail to see how it will create more pirates. I can't see how with removing insurances you will increase no. of pirates, especially since they will most likely raise sec status by npc chaining. This gives a good income to counteract lost bs's with no insurance payouts and raises sec status so every tom, ** and harry can't attack them. Originally by:** Pestillence It's a game where we fly around in eggs with tubes up our arses. If I want reality I'll go outside.
Xinda Duban	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:48:00 - [80] /signed The 0.0 idea seems very interesting, and i'm inclined to agree. But really for me the major problem is having to podkill to collect the bountys. Sometimes you have to make setups just to be sure you get the pod (i.e. sensor boosters or large smartbombs) and that compromises your setups for the actual fight. So, changing the bounty system as Lifewire sugests is really urgent.

Virgo I'Platonicus	Posted - 2006.10.17 20:52:00 - [81] /signed. Except for the last part. Dont close the 0.0 space to noobs. If they venture there, they must face the danger. If they get shot by "alliance navies" then the navies must pay the price with standing loss. Technically though, i'd allow the navies to shoot neutrals in their own territory - if we had constellation control /region control. Upon entering that area of space, everyone should be notified, whether the alliance is neutral-friendly or not. That should solve the problem. Anyway good post, keep it up. V.
Virgo I'Platonicus	Posted - 2006.10.17 20:56:00 - [82] Originally by: Lifewire @Ithildin: You forget that it is important for a player driven game to replace NPC rats with player rats. And to replace Concord with player bountyhunters. 0.0 is full of pirates - its just a question of your view. They are there, all that has to be done is to give them a red ship. Combined with the bounry patch i proposed, EVE would mutate to a truely player driven game within 1-2 months. This means we would have 10-20K pirates in 0.0 and have even more piratehunters that try to kill those. There would also be alliances that would not shoot neutrals outside their territory - they would be called alliance navy officers. Those alliances that attack neutrals outside their territory would be called pirate player faction. NPC-chaining would be a lousy job compared to player-pirate-hunting. Since player pirate factions would not be able to enter empire, a market in 0.0 HAS TO EXIST! The demand will be there and so the industrial players will see it. And when industrial players smell ISK... So the pirates in 0.0 will automatically cause that 0.0 or low sec get interesting for industrial players. Don¦t forget: these -10.0 players need the equipment and ships!!! Somehow the stuff has to reach them in 0.0. It does not mather if they use alts or if real industrial players discover this market in 0.0 - the traffic will be the same: tons of goods and ships have to be moved to the 0.0 pirates, piratehunters and navy officers. This is how 0.0 gets settled, this is how EVE gets a player driven game. All the NPC $hit and new shipclasses will not make EVE much better - the real content has to be player driven. awesome idea. Love it. Please, ccp, please? :)
Xoria Krint The Movement	Posted - 2006.10.17 23:14:00 - [83] Edited by: Xoria Krint on 17/10/2006 23:14:36 /Signed, But does the bounty system works pirate vs pirate too? ---- My Movies
JustBlaze	Posted - 2006.10.18 00:12:00 - [84] Originally by: Beringe I'm always amazed to see thread names with "OMG CCP MUST SEE" in them. I wonder if people really think that sort of thing draws their attention any better than a well written argument. i bet you have flown threw rancer a few times ^^
Spei Prodetor	Posted - 2006.10.18 01:47:00 - [85] well i must say that though more ppl posted for this to happen then not to, with both sides posing good arguments, and i did read every page, i must agree with the original poster. The pro's definatly out do the cons in this case and i for one would go red for this to happen it would spice things up a bit. Cus tbh atm everyone in 0.0 is a pirate unless they fly a hauler. =) and i do rather enjoy hunting 0.0 pirates since as long as you arent in a hauler you are a pirate.
Aaron Static Deep Space Consortium Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.18 05:44:00 - [86] as a vigilante I wholeheartedly endorse this thread and/or product /signed
Powdder	Posted - 2006.10.18 06:18:00 - [87] I fully endourse this post, and ccp please impliment this! the only 2 difficulties with this that I see is making the bounty for dieing low enough that it would be more expensive to buy a ship and self kill it v actually getting killed by a bounty hunter. And the noob question, which i dont have an easy answeer for. OUTSTANDING idea
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.10.18 13:40:00 - [88] the ability to trade and sell kill rights would also help pirate hunters to kill high sec pirates like me. otherwise with my +4 sec standing im pretty much untouchable as anti-pirates usually dont want to lose sec status.
Himo Amasacia Minmatar Elite United Corp Antigo Dominion	Posted - 2006.10.18 16:32:00 - [89] As I guy who has on and off been chasing (mainly smakctalkingstationhuggingsentryusingidiotic) pirates around for a while now, I have to agree with most of what Lifewire has said. I find it irritating that while there is now sec LOSS in 0.0, there is a sec GAIN from npcing in 0.0. It there is one there should not be the other. I havent read most of the thread (I dont have time right now) and I am far from the best PVP guy in eve, but piracy has a huge advantage in eve and there is bugger all incentive to be the opposite apart from the moral joy of a shrinking bank balance. I have been saying so for the past 6 months and it's good to see Livewire acnowlaging it. Respect. Also, frankly I hate NBSI policies. I understand why they are there, and when I am in a gang I chase neutrals with the gang, but I hate doing it. I ignore neutrals when traveling by myself. But there is no reason NOT to have an NBSI policy in eve. Go on, tell me the downside. Oh the downside is that you DONT have alts running all over your space making safespots checking out your poses and defences and generally following your ships around so that they can be jumped on. Wow. Sign me up for a non NBSI policy, dude. Basicly a minor sec hit in 0.0 for attacking non war targets would be a disincentive. I mean the wispers of ACSN bieng attacked by people now who are not "at war", still attacking, but still have their halos intact about not-supporting-BOB-really, should show that there should be a downside to this. You get sec boosts in 0.0, you should get sec reductions in 0.0. Case closed and thank you.
Mangold Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.18 18:38:00 - [90] Some good ideas in this thread. A sec hit for 0.0 would be interesting imho.

Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.10.19 05:18:00 - [91] I like these ideas. I'm still uncertain about the new 0.0 proposals, but I'm starting to think you might be right about those too. One thing I can see happening would be alliances hiring pirates so that they could still have neutrals blown up even in areas they didn't have sovereignty. Which would be cool, as it'd be real privateering. OTOH, maybe they'd just develop alt corps for the same purpose. Alts really just screw this game up in so many ways. Anyway, I think the 0.0 proposals need more development and troubleshooting, but I hope CCP has noticed them. Two thumps up on everything else, for sure, imho. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Kitana Bane	Posted - 2006.10.19 11:02:00 - [92] Well Livewire - you have my vote. Its a bold idea that might make things veeeeery interesting.
Je'hira Osiris Minmatar Knights of Chaos	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:44:00 - [93] It is quite simple... the auto bountys i agree with the rest of what u have said is soo far beyond rubbish i dont know where to start. You say in one breath that you want to make life hard from pirates and easy for hunter and then in the next you say that there are not enough pirates about. simple Make life easier for pirates and more ppl will turn that way... I for see that with salvage ships pirating will be take on by more characters. If ppl can hunt pirates with the way the game is at the moment then they have not be playing long enuf.. pirates give fear to low sec and interest to hundreads in the eve game hows about makeing it more interesting rather than trying to make our lives harder.... Respect can be found for your enemy.... its jus a case of how hard you wanna look...
Futher Bezluden Minmatar Red Dwarf Mining Corps Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:13:00 - [94] To the Original Poster.. /Signed. A lot of people will have issue with taking sec hits in 0.0, but these are the same who are +5 from ratting the 95% of the time they aren't shooting others. Maybe half the normal sec penalty for shooting a non-war target in 0.0. THUKKER
Dark PIne	Posted - 2006.10.19 15:32:00 - [95] I like your ideas, Lifewire. I'd suggest following tweak to insurance/auto bounty: The pilot/gang blowing up a pirate vessel would get an automatic bounty based on the insurance of the pirate ship and the pirate's sec level. For example, a pirate is flying a fully insured battleship that gives 100mil if blown up. Depending on the pirate's sec rating the pirate will receive a percentage of the full insurance, and the rest will be "CONCORD auto bounty": pirate's sec rating / pirate's insurance payout / auto bounty for whoever blows up pirate's ship 0 / 100mil / 0mil -1 / 95mil / 5mil -5 / 75mil / 25mil -7.5 / 62.5mil / 37.5mil -9.9 / 50mil / 50mil This way bounty hunters would get something from each pirate ship blown up, pirates would have insurance, ISK would not be generated no more than with the current system, and it would not be exploitable (any more than today).
Darius Falc Gallente Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.19 16:07:00 - [96] Originally by: Lifewire I think we can all agree on piracy should be the hardest proffession. At the moment piratehunting is the hardest because they are no good bountys and those are payed on the pod. Somebody said here, everybody will become piratehunter if these changes that i propose would happen. This would not be bad for the game - actually the lack of bountyhunters caused that CCP had to implement sentry guns and Concord (NPC-elements) that fullfill the role of bountyhunters. Lets say we would have 40K bountyhunters in the game - those would replace another NPC element - perfect! I'm sorry but I just don't buy this. I have over 350 kills to my name and around 20 deaths. If you look at my deaths...all but two of them are to anti-pirate gangs. I spend alot of time as a solo pirate, if an anti-pirate gang turns up I have to go deep safe or try another system because there is no way I'm going to drop 10 ships. Piracy already is the hardest profession because: - We can't enter high sec - We can be killed anywhere - There are less of us - anti-pirates almost always go around in large gank squads - It's very difficult as a pirate to make enough money to offset ship losses (you have to be good and get some good kills) Whilst I think the bounty ideas are interesting I think they'll just achieve more and larger anti-pirate gank squads and less people willing to take up this rather unorthodox Eve lifestyle. DF. ***********************************************
Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:26:00 - [97] Quote: I'm sorry but I just don't buy this. I have over 350 kills to my name and around 20 deaths. If you look at my deaths...all but two of them are to anti-pirate gangs. I spend alot of time as a solo pirate, if an anti-pirate gang turns up I have to go deep safe or try another system because there is no way I'm going to drop 10 ships. Piracy already is the hardest profession because: - We can't enter high sec - We can be killed anywhere - There are less of us - anti-pirates almost always go around in large gank squads - It's very difficult as a pirate to make enough money to offset ship losses (you have to be good and get some good kills) Whilst I think the bounty ideas are interesting I think they'll just achieve more and larger anti-pirate gank squads and less people willing to take up this rather unorthodox Eve lifestyle. You are absolutly right - but you come to the wrong conclusion. You said you destroyed 350 ships and lost 20. This allready shows the large advantadge you have: while piratehunters have to search for a pirate, you can attack whatever you see. I agree that piracy is not easy, but true piratehunting is simply impossible. I say "true piratehunting" because i do not talk about PVE-players that sometimes sink a pirate. I talk of full-time-piratehunters like i am a full-time-pirate. Nobody in EVE can make a living with the actual bountys - that is a fact. Since the bounty payout like i proposed will be a lot of ISK, why should a piratehunter want to share it with 20-30 others in his gang????? Check this: if you have 300 mil on your head, why should a piratehunter want to share this money with others? He might share with 1-2 others, but the 20 vs 1 antipirateattacks will be history. Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
Darius Falc Gallente Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:29:00 - [98] Originally by: Lifewire Quote: I'm sorry but I just don't buy this. I have over 350 kills to my name and around 20 deaths. If you look at my deaths...all but two of them are to anti-pirate gangs. I spend alot of time as a solo pirate, if an anti-pirate gang turns up I have to go deep safe or try another system because there is no way I'm going to drop 10 ships. Piracy already is the hardest profession because: - We can't enter high sec - We can be killed anywhere - There are less of us - anti-pirates almost always go around in large gank squads - It's very difficult as a pirate to make enough money to offset ship losses (you have to be good and get some good kills) Whilst I think the bounty ideas are interesting I think they'll just achieve more and larger anti-pirate gank squads and less people willing to take up this rather unorthodox Eve lifestyle. You are absolutly right - but you come to the wrong conclusion. You said you destroyed 350 ships and lost 20. This allready shows the large advantadge you have: while piratehunters have to search for a pirate, you can attack whatever you see. I agree that piracy is not easy, but true piratehunting is simply impossible. I say "true piratehunting" because i do not talk about PVE-players that sometimes sink a pirate. I talk of full-time-piratehunters like i am a full-time-pirate. Nobody in EVE can make a living with the actual bountys - that is a fact. Since the bounty payout like i proposed will be a lot of ISK, why should a piratehunter want to share it with 20-30 others in his gang????? Check this: if you have 300 mil on your head, why should a piratehunter want to share this money with others? He might share with 1-2 others, but the 20 vs 1 antipirateattacks will be history. Hey Tundragon...A fair point about trying to actually hunt a pirate but I'm not sure the conclusion that pirating is easier because of my kill ratio is the right one either. I kill alot of ships because I spend 100% of my time doing PVP, my ship, skills and ability are all as optimised as I can make them in that direction. I think from one point of view though you're right...pirates are hard to kill largely because of the above and hard to find, largely because of the above. This gives anti-pirates a hard time. We're good at running away so we can live to fight another day if we have to. However, I don't agree with your assertion that this will lead to less ganking. Imagine the scenario....10 two month old players get together and say to themselves...."if we go after a dangerous pirate with 10 of us we'll probably get him and that will be 30 mill a piece...not bad for an evening's work"...and what's more...they're probably right...it doesn't matter how old you are or what ship you're in (with the exception of a carrier or dreadnought) if 10 cruisers come after you you're probably going down if they have themselves planned reasonably well. this will lead to more ganking and worse still it'll lead more n00bs into ganking. I'd still be a pirate but these changes would make it close to impossible for me to make a profit I suspect. DF ***********************************************
Lifewire Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:57:00 - [99] But if 10 new players in cruiser hunt you, then this is good!!! They bring fun to you! As experienced pirate you¦ll probably sink 1 or 2 of them or you will have to evade them. However - high bountys will help to bring the gangsizes of piratehunters down, since they dont want to share the bounty with 20 others. Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
Darius Falc Gallente Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:59:00 - [100] I hear you....I'm not sure that you're right and I'm not sure I'd want to find out if you're wrong. Although I agree in principle that the current bounty system needs revision. DF. ***********************************************

Arcus Dei	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:50:00 - [101] Edited by: Arcus Dei on 20/10/2006 16:51:27 Originally by: Lifewire But if 10 new players in cruiser hunt you, then this is good!!! They bring fun to you! As experienced pirate you¦ll probably sink 1 or 2 of them or you will have to evade them. However - high bountys will help to bring the gangsizes of piratehunters down, since they dont want to share the bounty with 20 others. I must be having a thicko day but I find the logic in this spurious. As has been mentioned on several occasions in this thread, the bottom line is Risk -v- Reward. Surely, piratehunters would be more willing to hunt down high bounty pirates in big groups as the bounty split would be more per head & the individual risk is lessened. There's a reason why certain pirates have a large bounty on their heads. You don't get a noOb pirate in his first inty commanding a 100mill+ bounty as a rule. I would have thought that solo hunters are more likely to go for lower isk bounties as lower isk would be perceived as lower risk. There won't be enough to share out but the pirate hunter is more confident on taking on the nasty pirate himself. That's my two penneth anyhows. As to the rest, a lot of it makes sense imho.
Amira Silvermist Ubiqua Seraph	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:56:00 - [102] Lifewires bounty system gets my seal of approval! Your "no insurance and hunters gets paid by mineral value" system rocks...
Alteer	Posted - 2006.10.21 09:53:00 - [103] First off Lifewire you make a good point and I got to give you credit for making a difficult argument. Here's my 2 pence worth. 0.0 space is lawless. End of point no further comment needed. This is the current domain of a true pirate, he/she will live here because their sec status is too low to allow them to operate in empire space where there is law. The current standings settings for corp/alliance allows players to set their own security towards other corps . This is an effective system, the corp/alliance IS free to protect what it considers to be its soverign space; effectively policing it already. If you enter most alliance space dont you often come across roving squads looking for people who shouldnt be there to shoot? This is what NBSI means. The standings control the actions of those pilots within the alliance/corp within their own space. Quite simply this system doesnt need changing. The idea of a market in 0.0 space is a waste of time. Most alliances will own their own outposts in 0.0 with a market that is only accessible to those members it has set standings towards. The point being that they dont want pirates/enemy fleets to be able to buy replacement ships and weapons in their space, it would remove the need for the logistics involved in a war dec. If ASCN want to attack BoB in their own space then let them bring all the ships and ammo they need - im sure BoB would be happy to sell them ships and then gank them but this is beside the point :D A true market in 0.0 will never exist. Low sec space gives pirates access to a usually inflated market price but a market non the less. Why be a pirate? I think this is the domain of the pure PvP'er atm - someone who is either independantly wealthy or doesnt really care. You can pirate in a t1 frig or a t2 HAC - both can web/scram/jam/damp etc its just one is harder to kill than the other and hence changes the targets that you might engage. I got a lot of respect for the pirate community because its a hard life and I couldnt manage it all the time; I loose too many ships Why be a Pirate Hunter? Well you still get access to empire you can collect bounties - even though the current system needs changing. You dont have to pirate hunt 24/7 to make ends meat - when things are bad you just mission run or mine for a bit. This isnt a true profession atm because of this and that is why Lifewire has written his post. Suggestions - perhaps Pirate players should have access to someplace like deadspace to hang out. The gates in and out could require sec standings to use or some other similar control method which might be useful for moving around in. Almost like a series of tunnels for them to move about space in as opposed to using the normal jump gates, this system of deadspace shouldnt be all encompassing but maybe a few pockets and areas of travel here and there in low sec/0.0. The Pirate player would then be able to move around different regions of 0.0 more effectively and find better oppertunities to hunt. Smuggling could then also use this area of space as a market. Perhaps a smuggler could run specific buy orders for pirate corps to and from empire to this deadspace zone - keeping the pirates running. The area could be populated by CONCORD/Police drones as opposed to NPC pirates for the player pirate to kill in the dead time between hunting. A sort of anti-empire zone. This would provide a good regular income making Pirating still dangerous but a proper bone fide career. Hell you could even implement pirate agents with more nefarious missions such as kill 3 player characters and return their corpse's to me! The Pirate Hunter would then have a true role. The number of pirates would increase - the trading oppertunity would be there for smugglers - 0.0 would still be the domain of alliances and PvP'ers empire would remain safe for noobs and traders. This is just a few ideas that I have come up with. Feel free to flame me as much as you like.
Ferno Puppets on Steroids iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.21 14:44:00 - [104] Edited by: Ferno on 21/10/2006 14:47:20 :Edit put in some spaces I agree with Alteers above post. The bounty system/securaty system needs fixing but penalising 0.0 alliance for securing there space by giving them a negative securaty status is wrong and will just meen more alts for spying and empire trips. Having a strong market in 0.0 is a bad idea. Alliances are normaly very self sufficiant and dont need a strong market a strong market will benefit attacking forces by removing there logistical problems which i think will reduce the game and make teritory change alot harder. loosing a ship in 0.0 is not like empire you carnt just nip to the next system and get another (at a resonable price) you have to work together with your corp/alliance to make sure you all have the parts required to keep on fighting once your supplys are depleted you have to make long trips to empire or mine in the belts. If ships could be bought as easily in empire along with the amazing bountys you get on the rats, 0.0 will turn into a FPS. cheap replacable ships in 0.0 The Pirate Base in deadspace complexes is a great idea imagine the possabilaties of a black market in lowsec, illegal weapons and preformance ehancing drugs which could be possibley made in pirate complexes where a negative standing is the key. This will encourage smuggling and may make for Criminal industrialist it will give the pirates there own market and if there are regular concord spwns abit of income when things are tight. This will only work if the bounty/contract system is fixed otherwise it will be too great a advantage to the Pirates. If you want non pirates to live in low sec they need to be able to punish the ppl that hurt there opperations. I have probably gone off topic here but i feel better now its off my chest. Flame Away
Ralus eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.21 17:00:00 - [105] I think the biggest boost to the bounty hunter proffession would be if ccp allowed kill rights to be traded with the new contract system. The system needs to look a little like this: ->Bounty hunting corp esablishes itself in a region/constilation and makes themselves known that they are offering kill contracts on people. ->Pirate kills rich npc'er, the npc'er now has the three most important items for a bounty contract: a fat wallet, a kill right, and a seriously **ed of attitude. ->npc'er contacts the bounty hunting corp, and a contract is made transfering the kill right, and offering 50M reward on the pirates termination for the duration of the kill right. For safety the 50M is held in escrow and transfered automatically if the kill right is compleated, or returned if the killmail times out. ->With this system 1) The npc'er know his cash is secure and will only be transfered if the kill is compleated 2) The bounty hunter is safe that he will be paid fully for his efforts 3) The pirate gets more action, and has more fun. It's a win win situation I cannot** see a downside to this system.
bunghole1	Posted - 2006.10.22 20:35:00 - [106] Quote: Noobs and alts have nothing to do in 0.0 - quite simple. For THAT you can k m a,to be blunt. I got plenty to do in there;I mine,I build ships and ammo,I add to the market,and occasionally I add to someones Kill Mail. GRANTED,the fact that the game has alts,to me is just ludicrous.Too many exploits and meta-gaming involved. If you ammend that one statement to "get rid of alts altogether" it would make more sense.
Guntaro	Posted - 2006.10.22 21:04:00 - [107] The problem here is that Lifewire believes hunting pirates should be as profitable as pirating. It isn't and SHOULD'NT because of one simple reason. Pirates are smart and skilled pvp'ers and are hard to catch. Pirates however prey on weaker ships and careless/dumb players. It is Darwinism at its best. It is really the victim's faults which pirates exploit. Now to say just because pirates are too skilled to be killed frequently enough by pirate hunters to earn them money so they need a boost is utter crap and blasphemy.
Dark PIne	Posted - 2006.10.24 05:06:00 - [108] Originally by: Guntaro Edited by: Guntaro on 22/10/2006 21:18:07 The problem here is that Lifewire believes hunting pirates should be as profitable as pirating. It isn't and SHOULD'NT because of one simple reason. Pirates are smart and skilled pvp'ers and are hard to kill. Pirates however prey on weaker ships and careless/dumb players. It is Darwinism at its best. It is really the victim's faults which pirates exploit. First we have to make bounty hunting profitable, then we can start comparing the two. But basically I agree with you, piracy should offer greater potential for making ISK in general. That does not rule out the possibility, that a highly skilled bounty hunter could make as much profit. After all, bounty hunters are smart and skilled pvp'ers and are hard to kill. As I see it, fixing two things would kick-start the bounty hunting profession: - (auto)bounty from the ships - no security hits when hunting in the empire (but concord protection/sentrys would remain the same). In order to get more hunting throughout the empire (since 0.0 is mostly alliance controlled it isn't a viable hunting ground) I'd be willing to allow all pirates enter 1.0 space with a condition; a pirate entering empire system will be flashing red according to following table: Pirate's sec rating / Will flash red in systems 0 ... -1 / never -1 ... -2 / 1.0 -2 ... -3 / 0.9 ... 1.0 -3 ... -4 / 0.8 ... 1.0 -4 ... -5 / 0.7 ... 1.0 -5 ... -6 / 0.6 ... 1.0 -6 ... -7 / 0.5 ... 1.0 -7 ... -8 / 0.4 ... 1.0 -8 ... -9 / 0.2 ... 1.0 -9 ... -9.9 / always
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.24 07:53:00 - [109] I like most of what the OP suggest, with the exclusion of the 0.0 restriction to new players. On the sec standing: why the killing of rats in 0.0 give sec gain? If CONCOR is uninterested about PC killing PC in 0.0, whyit should reward PC killing NPC in 0.0, It is lawless territory, so CONCORD shouldn't be interested about PC actions in it both ways.
Jinryu Nasake	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:18:00 - [110] Edited by: Jinryu Nasake on 24/10/2006 13:18:55 I also like the ideas of the OP. I like doing PvP and see me more on the pirate hunting side. I neglect the point pirates have no way of making money, it's just poor whining again. You can also run missions in Lowsec for gaining much ISK, without problems. I personally only run missions to pay for the ships I loose in battles against much more experienced and organized pirates. A NPC-rated Bounty on Player Pirates would make the pirate-hunting replace the boring mission work that is needed to pay for the lost material and make PvP worth doing more often.



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