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Catherine Laartii Imperium Technologies Evictus. 485	Posted - 2015.03.05 06:24:34 - [1] - Quote Due to capitals (and especially supers) seeing a big reduction in importance and subsequent use in nullsec with the coming changes, as well as their recent ability to travel through stargates, I think it's high time to allow ALL capital ships into highsec. Certain restrictions would follow: -Triage and siege modules would be barred from activation, -Doomsdays and jump portals would be barred from activation (blops would be able to use their jump portals, as well as covops cynos being in use), -Current acceleration gate restrictions in hisec pve plexes (missions and otherwise) would remain subcap only. Advantages would be: -Centralizing the market for production and sale of carriers and dreads, -Safe(er) storage of supers not currently needing to be in use, -Moving capitals through hisec is MUCH safer than moving them through low or null. Certain things like targeted warp interdiction from hictors would also have to be allowed. I also don't see any reason for cynos to continue to be disallowed, but if there are any legit reasons I would like to hear them. Thoughts? I figure the restrictions would keep things from getting too crazy; let me know if there are any other ideas you think might be good.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out 7593	Posted - 2015.03.05 07:16:09 - [2] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: Due to capitals (and especially supers) seeing a big reduction in importance and subsequent use in nullsec with the coming changes, as well as their recent ability to travel through stargates, I think it's high time to allow ALL capital ships into highsec. Don't kid yourself. They are simply being nerfed in a niche tactic and SOV is being altered to a place where using Capital/Supercapital ships is "probably not the best solution for most forms of SOV warfare." Overall... they are still VERY powerful vessels... especially when used as fleet support and force multipliers for subcapitals. Catherine Laartii wrote: Advantages would be: -Centralizing the market for production and sale of carriers and dreads, -Safe(er) storage of supers not currently needing to be in use, -Moving capitals through hisec is MUCH safer than moving them through low or null. -Seeing how much consternation dreads undocking from major hub stations would cause. These are all arguments against letting capitals into high-sec... especially the points about them being safer. Also... really crunch the numbers behind capital ships. - A dred without seige is useless (it deals battleship dps). - A carrier using remote reps in any way (even large RRs) will be overpowered in the highly restrictive rulesets of high-sec. - A carrier without RR is basically a heavily tanked drone battleship (600 to 1000 dps). In other words, it does nothing a Dominix, Armageddon, or Rattlesnake doesn't already do. - Any Capital or Supercapital ship using local reps (of any sort) will be able to actively tank small fleets... even without Siege/Triage Mode. Would you like to see my lol-quad large rep Archon? It's can potentially rep about 3000+ dps for 20 minutes with an EHP of 1.5 million. - Capital HP in general makes them unreasonably hard to gank (I think I once calculated about 50-70+ Talos to take out a barely tanked capital ship in 0.5 space). - Carriers, Supercarriers, and Titans travelling through high-sec make the Bowhead and Jump Frieghter obsolete. Now... you COULD impose more restrictions that nerf capitals to the point where they can do none of the above... but that would bring up the question "why introduce them into high-sec at all?" If you have to impose heavy restrictions on a specific ship class to "make it work" in a specific area of space then it is probably not a good idea to introduce them in the first place. Actually, it is precisely for this reason that CCP are having issues with Supercapitals in general. They just don't "fit" anywhere. And there is no way they can remove an entire class from the game that so many players have invested so much in. The SP System How did you start? IFW
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 1279	Posted - 2015.03.05 08:23:58 - [3] - Quote Why do this? What is the point of caps in High sec? None of your "advantages" are an advantage after all. "Centralized capital market"? Make one in Low sec if you really must have one (there are already "capital market hubs" all over the place. Plus, with the jump range reduction and jump fatigue, hubs as remote from areas of use as Jita are not feasible to use. You'd have to do several jumps to get even remotely close to anywhere useful. "Safer storage?" CCP will allow docking supers and titans in stations before long. Until then, your Super is absolutely invincible if it is logged off out of a POS. Even if you do not want to log it in for many months and the POS was removed in the meantime, you can just anchor/online a new POS with another char before you want to log it back in and it's still 100% safe. "Moving capitals through hisec is MUCH safer" ... the whole point of these ships is that it should not be safe or even easy. "Seeing how much consternation dreads undocking from major hub stations would cause" ... how is this even a reason to allow capitals in High sec? Trolling? If people want to see them undock or in use, they should go to Low/Null sec. Period. If they do not want to go to Low/Null sec, they won't see a capital in action. Period. Although this isn't even true, as you can see chribba's Dread in Amarr every now and then and there's apparently also a Chimera occasionally undocking in Otela. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Lukas Rox Aideron Technologies 64	Posted - 2015.03.05 11:11:41 - [4] - Quote There is one ship-module that would see much wider use if it was allowed in high sec and it's Rorqual and Industrial Core. From my personal experience Rorquals are currently either used for creating jump clones for friends/corp members, or as bait ships. Not saying it doesn't do it well :D Nerfing capitals in high sec to a point where they are not useful would only help fro mlogistical point of view (easier moving). But as some people already said, question is if owning and moving a capital ship SHOULD be easy? Plus I see a niche use of Carriers as reshipping platform for gankers - then again Bowhead (and to limited extent Orca) do it rather well already. Proud developer of LMeve: Industry Contribution and Mass Production Tracker: https://github.com/roxlukas/lmeve \| Blogging about EVE on http://pozniak.pl/wp/
Agondray Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces 214	Posted - 2015.03.05 15:18:25 - [5] - Quote shes talking about the siege/triage mode being disabled in highsec, since they would be barred from mission sites there no need for you to siege unless you plan on ganking a fighter with a dread. We have the mechanics to disable weapons in high (look at the bomber) Since capitals have already been nerfed into the ground and can use gates to travel, let them convoy through highsec, disable weapons while in highsec. Moving now is a lot harder going since they cant jump past 5 meters lol. only thing I can see if a fleet keeping all of their capitals in high and jumping out to low and null for a day skirmish....and at the same time I can see more people owning caps to do that and losing them. gankers already use orcas for reshipping as you can hold catalyst and thrashers with mods in the bays which gives the gankers an advantage I wont say as major ones already know it and the minors continue to bounce from point to point. Caps would made for the massive battles against structures and other capitals, since anything else throws their tracking unless the pilot is an idiot. Poster isn't saying that they should be used in highsec for any fighting but merely traversing, which there has already been other post wanting this, this one is just more precise on how to go about doing that (at least what ive seen). Id imagine most corps in null aren't doing the awox safety so if they see a afk cap pilot hiding in empire on ap or anything than why not? GS would like that since they already kill their own miners for being in highsec for a day. "Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Arden Elenduil Laurus Manus Concordia Incorporated II 353	Posted - 2015.03.05 15:23:44 - [6] - Quote One thing that irritates me greatly is the potential for them to be used as giant secure suitcases, shipping assembled ships across highsec with impunity (good luck trying to gank a capital). While a Bowhead is rather easily ganked, caps are so much harder to kill due to them having a LOT more ehp. So, no from me. You'd have to absolutely nerf them into oblivion and then what's the actual point?
Metal-Beard Rockstar federation 2	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:28:58 - [7] - Quote I don't much care if they are allowed or not I wont be training to fly 1 for a very long time, but on the other hand, it would be good to see some larger, more visually stunning ships in high sec that give the, WOW factor.
Thonys Visser Green Visstick High 5	Posted - 2015.03.05 17:07:50 - [8] - Quote Well i like the idea i have never seen one before if there are restrictions and do not disturb hs why not
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1103	Posted - 2015.03.05 18:20:04 - [9] - Quote A big fat NO!!!! Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 1280	Posted - 2015.03.05 18:29:41 - [10] - Quote Thonys Visser wrote: Well i like the idea i have never seen one before if there are restrictions and do not disturb hs why not Go into Low sec or Null sec when you see a big red blob on the map and you will see more capital ships than your brain can ever process. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Thonys Visser Green Visstick High 5	Posted - 2015.03.05 19:14:16 - [11] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Thonys Visser wrote: Well i like the idea i have never seen one before if there are restrictions and do not disturb hs why not Go into Low sec or Null sec when you see a big red blob on the map and you will see more capital ships than your brain can ever process. A big fat NO!!!!
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 1280	Posted - 2015.03.05 19:26:40 - [12] - Quote Thonys Visser wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Thonys Visser wrote: Well i like the idea i have never seen one before if there are restrictions and do not disturb hs why not Go into Low sec or Null sec when you see a big red blob on the map and you will see more capital ships than your brain can ever process. A big fat NO!!!! Then you will not see capitals. Easy as that. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Alexis Nightwish 116	Posted - 2015.03.05 20:01:53 - [13] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: -Moving capitals through hisec is MUCH less safe than moving them through low or null. FTFY CCP only approaches a problem in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button
Kabark Schilden 42	Posted - 2015.03.05 20:42:38 - [14] - Quote This has been proposed many times before. I think this is a terrible idea. The first thing that comes to mind is new players starting EVE already think that bigger is better and they tend to train up battleships ASAP because it is the biggest in highsec. Now Joe Snuffy joins EVE, and B-lines right to dreadnought, buys a PLEX or two and gets his dread 2 months into the game. Losses it to an SB fleet then rage quits or better yet looses it to an L3 when he gets scrambled for the first time and realizes he can't hit anything smaller than a painted battleship. Jita would just implode into a singularity from the mass of all the supers orbiting M4 station by pilots in NPC corps. Half of the small corps >50 members would just disband into NPC or join a major corp because what can a bunch of carebears do against war decking griefers in caps and supers. Station games would turn into cyno games. New bros would be forced to stay in an NPC corp or join the corp that had the biggest blob to ensure semi safety. Those are just a few reasons off the top of my head.
Celthric Kanerian Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation 241	Posted - 2015.03.05 22:46:29 - [15] - Quote Jesus christ, Here we go again...
Vaju Enki Secular Wisdom 1448	Posted - 2015.03.05 23:12:48 - [16] - Quote No. The Tears Must Flow
Catherine Laartii Imperium Technologies Evictus. 486	Posted - 2015.03.06 01:41:32 - [17] - Quote As I stated and another commented earlier, the intent is mainly to allow them access to traverse hisec; not necessarily affect it too greatly. I am of the opinion that in all practicality, this wouldn't change or unbalance things much in any way, other than seeing some people move things more securely in capitals, or gankers being a little more creative with how they deploy. That, plus it'd be fun to see how groups like RvB would react. Hisec wars would be a little more opulant, but in general not much would change.
Lugh Crow-Slave 843	Posted - 2015.03.06 01:52:01 - [18] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: Certain things like targeted warp interdiction from hictors would also have to be allowed since others have already given great reasons why caps need to stay out i did want to give you a heads up.... these are already allowed to be used in hs Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
Catherine Laartii Imperium Technologies Evictus. 486	Posted - 2015.03.06 02:00:24 - [19] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: Also... really crunch the numbers behind capital ships. - A Dred without Seige Mode is useless (it deals battleship dps). - A Carrier using remote reps in any way (even large RRs) will be overpowered in the highly restrictive rulesets of high-sec. - A Carrier without RR is basically a heavily tanked drone battleship (600 to 1000 dps). In other words, it does nothing a Dominix, Armageddon, or Rattlesnake doesn't already do except tank a metric fuckton more. What's your point? The intent is to make sure they're NOT used for combat in hisec; it's mainly for transit purposes. ShahFluffers wrote: - Any Capital or Supercapital ship using local reps (of any sort) will be able to actively tank small fleets... even without Siege/Triage Mode. Would you like to see my lol-quad large rep Archon? It's can potentially rep about 3000+ dps for 20 minutes with an EHP of 1.5 million. again, so what? They can already do that in low and null already, so nothing about that will drastically change the landscape in pvp or pve. Sure, you can rep. People can also use neuts on you, and since you're less likely to get remote assistance with cap, it's even more of a bogus statement to make. ShahFluffers wrote: - Capital HP in general makes them unreasonably hard to gank (I think I once calculated about 50-70+ Talos to take out a barely tanked capital ship in 0.5 space). - Carriers, Supercarriers, and Titans travelling through high-sec make the Bowhead, Freighter, and Jump Freighter obsolete. Point about ganking is bogus and irrelevant. Now that's just silly. Supers cant dock and probably will never be able to dock, and carriers have a smaller ship maint bay than a bowhead. Freighters and JF have entirely different roles, skill reqs and prices than supers, so one obsoleting or replacing the other is ludicrous. At most a few stats would have to be tweaked to ensure that capitals aren't able to haul more than freighters, or tweaking freighters to do the same. It's a strawman argument that can easily be solved by a minor balance pass. ShahFluffers wrote: If you have to impose heavy restrictions on a specific ship class to "make it work" in a specific area of space then it is probably not a good idea to introduce them in the first place. I'm not trying to 'make them work' in high sec. I'm simply proposing that they're able to traverse it, have carriers and dreads be able to access stations therein, and allow more options for how people distribute and store their capital fleets. The only point you made that's worth any serious consideration was hauler capacity being superseded by capital bays. I'm of the opinion since supers can't dock (and their skill and price is exorbitant), their ability to haul more ships than a bowhead is irrelevant. Carriers are certainly hardier ships and more resistant to being ganked, but they require a completely different set of skills to fly, and don't haul more. Also, I stated pretty clearly that only covert cynos would be usable in hisec; not regular ones. There would be not transit advantage for capitals vs the bowhead in regards to hauling.
Catherine Laartii Imperium Technologies Evictus. 486	Posted - 2015.03.06 02:01:31 - [20] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: Certain things like targeted warp interdiction from hictors would also have to be allowed since others have already given great reasons why caps need to stay out i did want to give you a heads up.... these are already allowed to be used in hs Scripted hictors do NOT work in hisec. They only work in lowsec.
Catherine Laartii Imperium Technologies Evictus. 486	Posted - 2015.03.06 02:04:15 - [21] - Quote derp
kingtuttut Badasaz Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 0	Posted - 2015.03.06 02:05:12 - [22] - Quote Caps in high eh No . Why would anyone even bother leaving then?
Catherine Laartii Imperium Technologies Evictus. 486	Posted - 2015.03.06 02:05:56 - [23] - Quote kingtuttut Badasaz wrote: Caps in high eh No . Why would anyone even bother leaving then? ...To use them in combat as intended with their roles?
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 182	Posted - 2015.03.06 02:29:53 - [24] - Quote OP if your ONLY reason for allowing them into high sec is to use it as a highway to get where they want to go then you will not mind the following restrictions. Only local defensive modules can be activated, after all we do not want a ship with a measly 1 million hit points to be unprotected. No remote modules of any kind including links. No fighters or bombers can be launched, and only 5 combat drones allowed in space at any given moment. Nothing can be carried in any of the various bays, hangers etc. All on board weapons if any would be disabled except your 5 drones. You must file a gate jump path with Concord before you are allowed to enter high sec and any deviation from that plan results in a Concord visit and the destruction of your ship. I think that would nerf them to the point where they would be worthless for any use other than a simple transit trough high sec to get someplace else. If you think these are unfairly restrictive then NO to combat capable cap ships in high sec. The Rorqual I would be interested in a discussion about as long as the restrictions on it's uses balanced it fairly against the other ships in high sec intended to fill the same role.
Kabark Schilden 42	Posted - 2015.03.06 02:47:59 - [25] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: OP if your ONLY reason for allowing them into high sec is to use it as a highway to get where they want to go then you will not mind the following restrictions. Only local defensive modules can be activated, after all we do not want a ship with a measly 1 million hit points to be unprotected. No remote modules of any kind including links. No fighters or bombers can be launched, and only 5 combat drones allowed in space at any given moment. Nothing can be carried in any of the various bays, hangers etc. All on board weapons if any would be disabled except your 5 drones. You must file a gate jump path with Concord before you are allowed to enter high sec and any deviation from that plan results in a Concord visit and the destruction of your ship. I think that would nerf them to the point where they would be worthless for any use other than a simple transit trough high sec to get someplace else. If you think these are unfairly restrictive then NO to combat capable cap ships in high sec. The Rorqual I would be interested in a discussion about as long as the restrictions on it's uses balanced it fairly against the other ships in high sec intended to fill the same role. You may actually be onto something here. Caps allowed into HS only for transit purposes. Only mid and low slots local modules can be activated. No drones or fights can be launched, cannot use siege or triage, cannot use fitting bay. And to prevent Titan hyper dunking, jump clones cannot be activated in HS on a super. There, that leaves caps pretty useless except for flying through space.
Catherine Laartii Imperium Technologies Evictus. 486	Posted - 2015.03.06 06:16:41 - [26] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: OP if your ONLY reason for allowing them into high sec is to use it as a highway to get where they want to go then you will not mind the following restrictions. Only local defensive modules can be activated, after all we do not want a ship with a measly 1 million hit points to be unprotected. No remote modules of any kind including links. No fighters or bombers can be launched, and only 5 combat drones allowed in space at any given moment. Nothing can be carried in any of the various bays, hangers etc. All on board weapons if any would be disabled except your 5 drones. You must file a gate jump path with Concord before you are allowed to enter high sec and any deviation from that plan results in a Concord visit and the destruction of your ship. I think that would nerf them to the point where they would be worthless for any use other than a simple transit trough high sec to get someplace else. If you think these are unfairly restrictive then NO to combat capable cap ships in high sec. The Rorqual I would be interested in a discussion about as long as the restrictions on it's uses balanced it fairly against the other ships in high sec intended to fill the same role. A lot of good ideas here, +1. Certain things like being unable to carry anything or getting your sh*t blown up if you deviate from your flight path seem a little harsh and I wouldn't support them, though. How about this: -You can carry items in the bays, but you can't deploy ships from the maint bay, -Fighters and fighter bombers disallowed, but if subcap drones are fielded and start shooting at someone (legit WT or npc) the navy/customs officials show up and starts harassing you. This is not the case if you get shot at first and you're defending yourself. -Dreads and Titans can't activate their XL guns. -Clone vat activation disallowed (credit to the guy above me^) I think carriers should be allowed to defend themselves, but be penalized for using their firepower offensively in hisec.
Tabyll Altol Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two 78	Posted - 2015.03.06 07:48:12 - [27] - Quote Lukas Rox wrote: There is one ship-module that would see much wider use if it was allowed in high sec and it's Rorqual and Industrial Core. From my personal experience Rorquals are currently either used for creating jump clones for friends/corp members, or as bait ships. Not saying it doesn't do it well :D Nerfing capitals in high sec to a point where they are not useful would only help fro mlogistical point of view (easier moving). But as some people already said, question is if owning and moving a capital ship SHOULD be easy? Plus I see a niche use of Carriers as reshipping platform for gankers - then again Bowhead (and to limited extent Orca) do it rather well already. And the introduction of the rorqual in highsec would destroy 0.0/wh mining nearly completely. And the second post for an nearly indestructable transport. If your to stupid to move you stuff safe aroud then use some of the freaking corp-¦s which can. No to capitals in Highsec, we need to get the people out of there not into the highsec. -1 And Repost would you be so kind an use the search function.
Samillian Angry Mustellid The Periphery 728	Posted - 2015.03.06 14:53:26 - [28] - Quote All this would means is safer travel and storage for capitals which is something that should be avoided. On top of that capitals are one of the few incentives that actually get people out of HiSec so if you want to play with the shiny toys then move to the appropriate space. Not supported. NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 1464	Posted - 2015.03.06 15:19:59 - [29] - Quote No to supercaps in hisec under any condition for an abundance of reasons I don't really feel like going into now. If capitals were ever to be allowed in hisec, the limits on them would have to be so strict (i.e. no activation of any capital-class modules) as to effectively make them giant targets. I've made a case before for allowing capitals to access 0.7 and below due to a few instances of hisec pockets otherwise blocking losec corridors. I still think that this is a good and proper motivation, but the benefit of doing so is so limited that I hardly think it's necessary. My Many Misadventures Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I seek to create content, not become content.
LT Alter The Scope Gallente Federation 138	Posted - 2015.03.06 16:42:38 - [30] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: Scripted hictors do NOT work in hisec. They only work in lowsec. Not true, you can use scripted hictors in high sec. Now that that's out of the way. CCP have already begun discussion on this internally. CCP Fozzie wrote: WeGÇÖd like to allow capitals into highsec without restriction in the future, but itGÇÖs a major change that is for a later time You can find this quote under Gate Movement in this dev blog Now, to state my position on this change it would be, ambivalent. Moving my capitals through high sec would make travel much easier for me and a hell of a lot safer. However, it also gives my enemies the ability to do so as well. The problem with that fact is, I cannot stop my enemies from moving their capitals through high sec. Where, by contrast, I can somewhat hinder my enemies ability to move it's fleet through low/null sec. I can use this to my advantage as well of course, and as I am usually a member of small corporations the fight larger once, I could exploit it more due to the fact that I would need the added protection when moving my capitals. As to the use of capitals in high sec for means other than travel, personally I don't see much reason to disallow them to be used if they are able to be moved through high sec. Allow them to triage and siege, capitals cancel each other out in fights, and it might even add some interesting game play to the boring as all hell high sec pvp. However I believe no matter what occurs with capitals, cynos in high sec should NOT be allowed. If capitals want to make use of accelerated travel through cynos they should be forced to use low/null. It's a risk/reward thing, and also there should at least be some drawback to moving through high sec rather than low/null. Also if capital battles became a thing in high sec amongst suspect timers and wars then allowing them to cyno would give them too much power in my opinion. Perhaps a balancing factor for high sec capital combat could be 5 minute aggression timers rather than 1 minute when it comes to docking/jumping gates. Once again a risk/reward thing. Tl;Dr I don't really care about capital use in high sec, just no cynos please.

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