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Shirley Koch	Posted - 2006.10.15 00:06:00 - [1] well how it comes that ingame prices explode? a vaga hits nearby 300 mills now!!! gtc became 100mills more xpsv than 2 months ago is there really so much isk ingame that this price explosion hapens? i mean still make same ammoun of isk when playing as a year ago. is there a way to reduce to prices back to normal regions? i mean if this goes straight forward we pay in 2 months 50 mills for a tier 3 cruisa
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.15 00:10:00 - [2] just because a few items go up hugely in price, or even one entire sector of a market, doesn't mean prices are exploding. resident economics expert
Sergio Ling Standard Operations Building Services Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.15 00:15:00 - [3] Ctrl+Q resets prices Originally by: Jacob Majestic Umm, why don't you just use the correct dread?
Ice Conch Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.10.15 00:36:00 - [4] supply and demand This is Samirol's alt.
Andargor theWise Disbelievers of Fate The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.10.15 00:38:00 - [5] Originally by: Ice Conch supply and demand Well, supply and demand dictated by mechanics in a game world. Not everything is pure macro/microeconomics in eve. - Got grief?
JINX HSC Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.15 00:43:00 - [6] Game time cards are ******* up all eve.. GTC for isk will be the death of eve if not lag will kill it first... - KLADDKAKA - Trig read the rulez m8!!!
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.10.15 01:22:00 - [7] Originally by: JINX HSC Game time cards are ***** up all eve.. GTC for isk will be the death of eve if not lag will kill it first... I agree. Also, when it comes down to it, people are so used to Jita, they forget there are other regions. Jita is a ***... and it is remarkably EASY for rich people/corps/alliances to manipulate prices. Lets not forget, Eve hasn't grown, the player base has... and resources are less because of that. CCP needs to make more belts or have them grow faster. We have no unions in here... the market is flawned in its existance. And on another note, escrow needs to only be used to put up items for specific people or corps. Too many people taking the tax free road. Expand the market items... and change regional market views to a radius of 20 jump views.
Quin Tal Fort Knox Inc Expeto Libertas Foedus	Posted - 2006.10.15 01:23:00 - [8] Inflation my friend, all part of the game :) Makes it fun!
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.15 01:27:00 - [9] Edited by: zeKzn on 15/10/2006 01:28:36 Edited by: zeKzn on 15/10/2006 01:28:07 Edited by: zeKzn on 15/10/2006 01:27:44 Originally by: Andargor theWise Well, supply and demand dictated by mechanics in a game world. Laughing Not everything is pure macro/microeconomics in eve. While this is true, the differences do not affect supply and demand to an extent large enough to matter. Supply and Demand rules will apply any time there is a good being produced and sold for a price to those who demand it. Originally by: JINX HSC Game time cards are ******* up all eve.. GTC for isk will be the death of eve if not lag will kill it first... This is idiotic. GTCs dont: Increase the money supply Unbalance the game GTCs do equate to an exchange rate between ISK and "real world" currencies Whilst they may contribute to inflation because people who sell GTCs are then able to spend more on the same items, this doesn't matter. What you are saying is like the US saying it would no longer exchange dollars for any other currency, because it will "be the death of" the US economy. resident economics expert
Nebuli Caldari Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.10.15 01:28:00 - [10] Edited by: Nebuli on 15/10/2006 01:34:09 Originally by: JINX HSC Game time cards are ******* up all eve.. GTC for isk will be the death of eve if not lag will kill it first... QFT And to reply to the above. When rich people can literaly buy with real life money as much ISK as they want they can create monopols on things. Lets take Vaga as your example, this is just as an example. GTC seller sees a vaga BPO for sale and thinks its a good idea to own it, he then buys the ISK needed to buy it. He then makes alot of vagas and makes alot of ISK, he then sees another for sale and buys it, maybe having to buy some more ISK via TC sales to do so. He now has 2, a good % of the total, 2 might be in the hands of alliances and vagas are never produced off those BPOs for anyone other than the alliances in question. This guy now has possibly 50% of the BPOs that are used for public sales, he can now do several things, he can produce and sell them, he can find out who has the other BPOs and make them offers they cant refuse, or he can simply buy every vaga placed on the market and put them all up at his own heavily inflated prices. This could be done to any tech II print, and this guy could be in the game less than a month and become insanely rich, all through TC sales. If the guy is non legit, he can build up a huge wealth, sell it on ebay and transfer his BPOs to another char, doesnt matter if first gets banned, then repeat. CEO - Art of War

zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.15 01:30:00 - [11] Originally by: Lord Frost We have no unions in here... the market is flawned in its existance. What on earth are you talking about. For one, unions only attempt to address so-called "flaws" in the labor market, not any market in general, and secondly, they themselves are far more flawed than anything you could mention in a market system. Unions are among the worst things to be allowed in civilised society, from an economic standpoint. resident economics expert
Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.10.15 01:42:00 - [12] Originally by: zeKzn just because a few items go up hugely in price, or even one entire sector of a market, doesn't mean prices are exploding. t2 hardners - shield and armour, guns and missile launchers. Assault frigs, inties, cough hacs, cloaks, mwd's and the list goes on. Supply stays constant and demand increases. You'd have to be blind or stupid to say prices aren't exploding. The only people who get by imo are the grinders, non pvpr's and the rest buy timecards or purchase isk on ebay.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2006.10.15 01:43:00 - [13] Originally by: Nebuli GTC seller sees a vaga BPO for sale and thinks its a good idea to own it, he then buys the ISK needed to buy it. He then makes alot of vagas and makes alot of ISK, he then sees another for sale and buys it, maybe having to buy some more ISK via TC sales to do so. He now has 2, a good % of the total, 2 might be in the hands of alliances and vagas are never produced off those BPOs for anyone other than the alliances in question. This guy now has possibly 50% of the BPOs that are used for public sales, he can now do several things, he can produce and sell them, he can find out who has the other BPOs and make them offers they cant refuse, or he can simply buy every vaga placed on the market and put them all up at his own heavily inflated prices. It's so crazy, it just might work. "If you kill all the wolves, you're gonna have a crapload of bunnies. And by bunnies I mean stupid people." Ask Ninja
666PaZuZu666 Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.10.15 01:48:00 - [14] if it's to high price ? fly to another region , ask a friend , m8te if you have any to help out and ... otherwise mmm that prices can buy lots o t1 cruisers with juicy mods > they pwn a hac with a breeze ... ugh and if you decide to quit eve > can we have your stuff ? LOL ♥
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2006.10.15 01:52:00 - [15] Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 15/10/2006 01:55:04 Originally by: Shirley Koch ...a vaga hits nearby 300 mills now!!! gtc became 100mills more xpsv than 2 months ago... And in other news, mindlink implants are down from 300 million to 80 million, military connections skillbooks are down from 120 million to 60 million... etc Nah, in fairness though, there is a steady rate of inflation as anyone playing long enough will confirm, but it's not quite as bad as it appears by picking out the items that have increased the most drastically. "If you kill all the wolves, you're gonna have a crapload of bunnies. And by bunnies I mean stupid people." Ask Ninja
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.15 01:52:00 - [16] Originally by: Pestillence t2 hardners - shield and armour, guns and missile launchers. Assault frigs, inties, cough hacs, cloaks, mwd's and the list goes on. Supply stays constant and demand increases. You'd have to be blind or stupid to say prices aren't exploding. The only people who get by imo are the grinders, non pvpr's and the rest buy timecards or purchase isk on ebay. If you can actually prove that there's inflation over a well-constructed price index, then you'd be right. That is far from it. resident economics expert
Sweet Poetry	Posted - 2006.10.15 01:59:00 - [17] I beleive GTC are the cause of the inflation. What's happening is people who are good at making isk are buying up GTC's and then also buying new accounts. Before those people simply made isk for a shorter amount of time per month but now they have things to do with the money. Some ppl are using GTC to pay for all accounts and increasing the number of accounts they have because they can pay for all of them in isk and they know how to make lots of isk. I'm pretty good at making isk and havent' paid for my accounts for 3 months but I still think this is hurting eve. A tier 3 cruise will not be going for such a high price because I don't think the prices of ore is fluctuating and bpo's will be for sale on them on the market (just like the other tech 1 ships). The reason vaga's are so highly priced is because the the people in control of the bpo(s) are taking advantage of a monopoly / Oligopoli and maximising their profits. It's not supply and demand, it's them deciding what price they will make the max profit on their vagabonds and using it. I think if they sold vagabonds for 50 mill they would sell tons more vagabonds but they would make less money since they make one tenth the profit but only five times the sales. So they are getting silly rich. Something that is going to happen however is that when there are alternate methods of producing the vagabonds (or any HAC raelly) they have lost their oligopoly and people will start undercutting each other and supply and demand will rule again. vaga's may not drop to 50 where I think they belong but they will drop a lot. I think they need to reduce the profitability of some areas of the game though, somethings are making people way too much isk. Imagine a guy who can make 1 bill per night. He can just about buy 1 year of GTC in a single night. That's what's causing inflation. It used to be, this player would get 10 billion and say to himself well, "I'm damn rich. Yay!" Now he gets 10 bill and says, "maybe I should ***** that complex / asteroid belt some more and buy a dread account" Sir Bart
cheru nemo nobis impune lacessit SynchronizerZ	Posted - 2006.10.15 02:08:00 - [18] Originally by: Pestillence ... Supply stays constant and demand increases. You'd have to be blind or stupid to say prices aren't exploding. The only people who get by imo are the grinders, non pvpr's and the rest buy timecards or purchase isk on ebay. Sad but true. Quo vadis, Eve? o.O ................................................. been there done that
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.15 02:15:00 - [19] Originally by: JINX HSC Game time cards are ******* up all eve.. GTC for isk will be the death of eve if not lag will kill it first... bingo take a look in the damn sell forums. jesus ccp, you might as well just let ppl buy/sell isk on ebay at this point. all you've done is ensure you get your cut of the pie at the cost of game quality sry if that sounds harsh, i love the game, but the truth hurts
Cmdr Sy Off Balance Sheet Entity	Posted - 2006.10.15 02:18:00 - [20] Originally by: Shirley Koch i mean if this goes straight forward we pay in 2 months 50 mills for a tier 3 cruisa The price of T1 ships is fixed by insurance payouts and NPC valuation of mineral content through seeding of T1 items via infinite volume NPC sell orders. Obviously. You will only see economic distortions in areas of the economy effectively decoupled from routine NPC activities, such as T2 production, rare loot drops and agent rewards. Even in this category, the conditions are frequently changed, causing prices to go down as well as up. Connections skillbooks are one example - dropping from 400m to 50m in a year. So are implants, with the changes to agent offers and introduction of jump clones. Regarding T2, stat modifications (eg - EANM II) can increase demand on an item. So can evolution in ship setups, as can be seen in the named damage control market, and community-wide skill progression, an example here being T2 drones. The prices of many items have also followed a pattern of starting high, before falling and levelling out, as can be seen in the case of large T2 armour reps and command ships. Put simply, you are looking at one item, and not a basket of goods. Actually, inflation is not as bad as it was in summer 2005, when easy L4s and Ravens with pre-nerf torps inflated even T1 ship prices. I would not say the economy is healthy and fair, as currency farmers and GTC manipulators are introducing cashflows that should not exist. But you certainly will not see the real problems by looking at HAC prices.

Nymos Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.15 03:13:00 - [21] there are a couple of broken prices, not just hacs but also large t2 guns (you need 6-8 of them), invul fields, t2 bcus, cov ops cloaks (70m+), mwd (>6m for a 1mn one?)... you can't even find crows nowadays, have to search 5 regions to find one. it's just an interceptor, not a mothership... don't come with supply and demand, we all know about that and even though most pseudo economists on the forums believe that the rest has no idea about RL market mechanics and are uneducated dock workers this is not the case. prices are not entirely dictated by supply and demand because this is not a perfect market and can be manipulated since t2 is almost a monopoly considering that a good share of the t2 output is not put up for sale on the market but goes to alliances. demand has risen considerably while supply, at best, stayed the same. i'm sure if one of the sellers just adds another 50m the rest will follow quickly. he might lose the first sales, but who cares, it will sell anyway. and so it goes on. the prices for faction items are much more stable and reasonable than for some of the t2 stuff and looking at how complicated innovation will be i don't believe it will fix anything. oh yes, t2 are luxury items, sure... that applies to faction items, yes, but t2 is an upgrade to t1 hence 2 and they are made from blueprints as well. and look at how much better t2 is, it makes some t1 a complete joke. t2 ammo, resists, hitpoints etc. and in case of t2 ships they are often not just upgrades but have specific roles. an inty is much better at intying than a t1 frig. in fact, a t1 frig is worthless for any serious tackling. crap cap, slots, sig radius, speed... implants have become cheaper because of another broken game mechanic: level 4 courier missions often require real small items to be hauled (in a shuttle) and afaik it still has not been fixed since one of the recent patches. also, the offer table mostly rewards mission runners with implants because a lot of other offers have been removed. there you go, market floods with implants. and then there is the issue of jita. only one marketplace. sure it has some benefits - for those that never leave the forge region. but all of this has been posted so often it's not fun. --
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.15 03:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Nymos don't come with supply and demand, we all know about that and even though most pseudo economists on the forums believe that the rest has no idea about RL market mechanics and are uneducated dock workers this is not the case. prices are not entirely dictated by supply and demand because this is not a perfect market and can be manipulated since t2 is almost a monopoly considering that a good share of the t2 output is not put up for sale on the market but goes to alliances. demand has risen considerably while supply, at best, stayed the same. This is still supply and demand - the model doesn't only allow for perfect competition. Yes, its an oligopoly, but what solution do you propse? Quote: oh yes, t2 are luxury items, sure... that applies to faction items, yes, but t2 is an upgrade to t1 hence 2 and they are made from blueprints as well. and look at how much better t2 is, it makes some t1 a complete joke. t2 ammo, resists, hitpoints etc. and in case of t2 ships they are often not just upgrades but have specific roles. an inty is much better at intying than a t1 frig. in fact, a t1 frig is worthless for any serious tackling. crap cap, slots, sig radius, speed... I'm sure AU would disagree. What exactly is your point here anyway? I dont get the connection between this and the previous point. Quote: implants have become cheaper because of another broken game mechanic: level 4 courier missions often require real small items to be hauled (in a shuttle) and afaik it still has not been fixed since one of the recent patches. also, the offer table mostly rewards mission runners with implants because a lot of other offers have been removed. there you go, market floods with implants. isn't this what you want to happen with t2? resident economics expert My thoughts are my own and do not reflect those of my Corp/Alliance
Siigari Kitawa Gallente HelpCorp United Eden's Fire	Posted - 2006.10.15 03:17:00 - [23] I was totally explaining this to someone in EVE earlier the other day and he completely blew me off. Gaining isk through non-conventional ingame means (by the way, this includes things such as bookmark selling) moves isk to the wrong places. For example, if a 2 day noob decides to buy GTCs and sell them for isk he can essentially run an entire market if he plays his cards right. No 2 day EVE player should be able to get this much isk, let alone control a market. This is wrong and this situation needs to be addressed and/or corrected for better of players making an "honest living" in EVE. I can't say I'm going to quit EVE because of this, but it is literally trashing the game.
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.15 03:18:00 - [24] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Gaining isk through non-conventional ingame means (by the way, this includes things such as bookmark selling) moves isk to the wrong places. What defines "wrong" and "right" in this context? Quote: No 2 day EVE player should be able to get this much isk, let alone control a market. This is wrong and this situation needs to be addressed and/or corrected for better of players making an "honest living" in EVE. I can't say I'm going to quit EVE because of this, but it is literally trashing the game. Says who? Why not? Just because it threatens you because you either cannot or choose not to use the same methods doesn't mean its wrong. resident economics expert My thoughts are my own and do not reflect those of my Corp/Alliance
Siigari Kitawa Gallente HelpCorp United Eden's Fire	Posted - 2006.10.15 03:23:00 - [25] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 15/10/2006 03:25:08 Originally by: zeKzn Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Gaining isk through non-conventional ingame means (by the way, this includes things such as bookmark selling) moves isk to the wrong places. What defines "wrong" and "right" in this context? People gaining isk through non-tangible in-game items is "wrong". Originally by: zeKzn Quote: No 2 day EVE player should be able to get this much isk, let alone control a market. This is wrong and this situation needs to be addressed and/or corrected for better of players making an "honest living" in EVE. I can't say I'm going to quit EVE because of this, but it is literally trashing the game. Says who? Why not? Just because it threatens you because you either cannot or choose not to use the same methods doesn't mean its wrong. I never said that, I simply stated that someone can come in, have lots of money, and control a part of the game from the start. That is unfair and probably not the way CCP intended for the game to be played.
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.15 03:26:00 - [26] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa I never said that, I simply stated that someone can come in, have lots of money, and control a part of the game from the start. That is unfair and probably not the way CCP intended for the game to be played. I agree that its unfair to those who cant or choose not to take the same path. But fairness has never had anything to do with economics. CCP knows what they're doing, and if they see a problem I'm sure they'll address it. resident economics expert My thoughts are my own and do not reflect those of my Corp/Alliance
Siigari Kitawa Gallente HelpCorp United Eden's Fire	Posted - 2006.10.15 03:30:00 - [27] Originally by: zeKzn Originally by: Siigari Kitawa I never said that, I simply stated that someone can come in, have lots of money, and control a part of the game from the start. That is unfair and probably not the way CCP intended for the game to be played. ...and if they see a problem I'm sure they'll address it. That's what I said. -argh-
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.15 03:33:00 - [28] Edited by: zeKzn on 15/10/2006 03:33:37 Originally by: Siigari Kitawa That's what I said. -argh- then why complain about it? resident economics expert My thoughts are my own and do not reflect those of my Corp/Alliance
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks	Posted - 2006.10.15 03:50:00 - [29] They are addressing this in Kali with invention, keep your pants on. Also yeah the population of eve has boomed, and we badly need more belts, material slots, T2 bpos and bigger npc trade buy/sell orders. Even still I'm sure the devs are concerned with the situations. At least with exploration there will be explorable belts and all.
spurious signal Caldari Brainiacs	Posted - 2006.10.15 04:59:00 - [30] Originally by: JINX HSC Game time cards are ******* up all eve.. GTC for isk will be the death of eve if not lag will kill it first... QFT. What's happening is that the prices of the most wanted items are increasing - HACs, Cloaks, Command Ships etc. This is fuelled by GTC sales, people now know they can easily get a few billion ISK just by buying some GTCs and so that 300 million Cerberus doesn't look so expensive any more. Turning an MMORPG into an RMT game is a very, very bad idea.



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