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Reckless Eddie	Posted - 2006.10.15 05:08:00 - [31] Originally by: spurious signal What's happening is that the prices of the most wanted items are increasing - HACs, Cloaks, Command Ships etc. This is fuelled by GTC sales, people now know they can easily get a few billion ISK just by buying some GTCs and so that 300 million Cerberus doesn't look so expensive any more. Turning an MMORPG into an RMT game is a very, very bad idea. rmt was around before gtc trades and will still be around if they are stopped watched you cry, watched you fly, watched you die
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.15 05:59:00 - [32] Originally by: spurious signal Turning an MMORPG into an RMT game is a very, very bad idea. Explain why. You cant make statements like this without supporting them with a solid foundation of logic. I fail to see why its a bad idea. resident economics expert My thoughts are my own and do not reflect those of my Corp/Alliance
Dopefish Amarr Quad and Fish	Posted - 2006.10.15 06:35:00 - [33] Markups: buy cheap set out at higher price. Rich people: sweatshop owners, T2 lottery winners, gtc tycoons. Combine and you get people who can buy and control large portions of the market.
spurious signal Caldari Brainiacs	Posted - 2006.10.15 06:45:00 - [34] Originally by: Reckless Eddie rmt was around before gtc trades and will still be around if they are stopped Black market (eBay) RMT will always operate at a lower level than official, sanctioned RMT. Before GTCs for ISK was encouraged by CCP if people bought ISK for real money they kept quiet about it. Now you see posts on these forums all the time where people openly admit to buying ISK for real money. There was one the other day, the usual small-corp-gets-wardecced-by-big-griefing-corp type of thread but the poster said openly that his corp CEO had bought a few billion ISK to buy ships with. Legitimising something previously illegal will always increase the uptake of it. Originally by: zeKzn Originally by: spurious signal Turning an MMORPG into an RMT game is a very, very bad idea. Explain why. You cant make statements like this without supporting them with a solid foundation of logic. I fail to see why its a bad idea. Hi, this entire thread is about massive inflation in certain sections of the market. Which bit of me saying that I thought this inflation was because of GTC sales didn't I explain clearly enough?
Lygos ISS Navy Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.15 06:49:00 - [35] Edited by: Lygos on 15/10/2006 06:49:29 What you are witnessing is "Idle Savings." In most macroeconomic studies, you will often see examinations of a national savings rate. This rate is normally closely tied to the investment rate, excepting regions where foreign investment occurs at a much higher rate. Generally though, the trends coincide, as strong domestic investment attracts foriegn investment, but I digress. In pedestrian terms, it can be understood as follows: Man saves money -> it stands idle earning nothing for a time while it is being saved -> man decides to spend surplus money on new business/expanding business -> less money in immediate net savings -> GDP changes depending on the fortunes of investment. Savings that get too high are like lag on the supply side. They are investments, expansions, and replacement development that is yet-to-be. When this happens, central monetary institutions tend to boost incentives to build businesses. Too little savings, and not only are investments crimped, but ordinary foriegn investors tend to get spooked too. Jump-starting savings habits tend to be hard, especially when a currency is unstable. Throughout the 90s, this was a notable index referred to in wide swath of international investment firms and monetary development organizations. Argentina is a favorite example. One might surmise that CCP has attempted to deflate savings by making POS npc-only sales. However, the labor allocation mechanics and risk-managment mechanics are a bit flawed for us to witness either intensive deployment of these objects, nor a circulation of wealth via mass investment by the upper classes in "middle" class labor and projects. As a consequence, to keep the game hobbling along, CCP keep boosting npc payouts. I fully expect more of the same with each successive patch. If you're also a mirthless bastard, then you might as well adopt the same saturnine outlook. *Please note that hypercompetitions zones, or hubs such as Jita, as well as the t1 prices/mineral ratio prices are impervious to idle savings. However, labor in all non-mining fields is affected, as is meta good prices. Non-mining labor includes merc/hauler/etc prices. Mining labor is not included, because mineral prices are constrained by npc buy orders, and by npc-sold item refining. --- Private Investment should preceed Public Investment
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.15 08:34:00 - [36] Originally by: Lygos Please note that hypercompetitions zones, or hubs such as Jita, as well as the t1 prices/mineral ratio prices are impervious to idle savings. However, labor in all non-mining fields is affected, as is meta good prices. Non-mining labor includes merc/hauler/etc prices. Mining labor is not included, because mineral prices are constrained by npc buy orders, and by npc-sold item refining. In four words, ISKs grow on trees. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind.* Minmatar Hate Club.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.15 08:57:00 - [37] Edited by: Avon on 15/10/2006 08:58:04 The problem is not GTC sales, the problem is that making ISK is too easy. GTC sales just redistribute chunks of ISK, but someone actually had to make that ISK in the first place. With 90 day cards getting near the 400mil mark, that indicates that players who buy the codes are not struggling to make ISK, and probably have plenty left over to fund their characters needs too. If anything, the increase of GTC ISK prices is a good indication of the ease of ISK making. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:02:00 - [38] Which tech1 ships or modules have gone up in price so much exactly ? None, that's which. Now, which tech2 item has gone up ? Nearly all of them. The most logical conclusion is that mild inflation (as it has been for three continuous years now), and a fast growing population of people able to fly and/or use tech2 are conspiring to increase the demand of most tech2 items steadily where supply is static. GTC's probably have next to nothing to do with things, because when GTC for isk was allowed, almost all good tech2 bpo's had already been through the market, and had ended up with a producer that has held on to them since. Hardly any t2 bpo gets sold, or has been for the last half year to a year. That means that isk buyers end up with a lot of isk to buy tech2 at market price yes, and tech1, and everything else. But that isk would have been there to be spent on that anyway. It may raise overall inflation somewhat because more isk gets concentrated and is more likely to be spent on produced goods then, but in the overall picture that shouldn't be making much on an impact. Stop whining about the isk buying whenever you can think of some stupid arguemtn why it is ruining the game please. If you want it to stop think of a good reason, silly reasons aren't going to. Old blog
elrikyo Puppets on Steroids iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:05:00 - [39] Edited by: elrikyo on 15/10/2006 09:05:18 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Lygos Please note that hypercompetitions zones, or hubs such as Jita, as well as the t1 prices/mineral ratio prices are impervious to idle savings. However, labor in all non-mining fields is affected, as is meta good prices. Non-mining labor includes merc/hauler/etc prices. Mining labor is not included, because mineral prices are constrained by npc buy orders, and by npc-sold item refining. In four words, ISKs grow on trees*. Can People stop using that irritating U.S dictionary, and start spelling words properly. Labour not Labor....... so many other words in eve too :( Back to the Point. Seperate Empire regions by blankets of 0.0 space to increase trade. You then create mini-hubs, and the main hubs then start spreading out into these mini hubs around eve, creating a small vacuum. We should then see a decrease in persons in Jita and Rens.
lofty29 Praxiteles Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:07:00 - [40] What I'm confused by is why the T2 BC prices have exploded. When the 20% agility boost is introduced, so is invention... --- Praxitele's Inc. is Recruiting!

elrikyo Puppets on Steroids iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:10:00 - [41] Current output of t2 is correlated to the availbility of t2 blueprints, which is stagnant, yet the population of Eve is on an increase trend. Demand is therfore higher than supply, and the demand curve shifts upwards over the static supply curve, leading to a increase in equilibrium price.
mishkof Caldari Emerald Empire Muffins of Mayhem	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:13:00 - [42] Edited by: mishkof on 15/10/2006 09:13:17 I love seeing the fanboys mutterings in these threads. they are quite amusing. "Yes the prices are fine. Just grind for a week to fit a raven, it will be alright Little Joey...While you go ahead and do that I am off to sell a couple more GTC's to the unemployed that play this game." "What? You cant afford a vega??? You noob."
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:14:00 - [43] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 15/10/2006 09:15:37 May be T2 pwn so hard and pro-T2ers say you need T2 to win. Add it with ISKs grow on trees and real elites are elites because they can buy them at any price and win. Non-elites can not afford expensive stuffs and decide to whine on forum. Competitiveness at its best. Buy and fly T2 fitted Stabbers if you want the price to go down. Oh wait, they are crap. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind. Minmatar Hate Club.
Peter Stuyvesant Amarr	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:15:00 - [44] Originally by: elrikyo Can People stop using that irritating U.S dictionary, and start spelling words properly. Labour not Labor....... so many other words in eve too :( No. People from the US spell certain words differently. Who are you to say what is 'proper' spelling? Btw you mis-spelled 'warfare'
mishkof Caldari Emerald Empire Muffins of Mayhem	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:21:00 - [45] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 15/10/2006 09:15:37 May be T2 pwn so hard and pro-T2ers say you need T2 to win. Add it with ISKs grow on trees and real elites are elites because they can buy them at any price and win. Non-elites can not afford expensive stuffs and decide to whine on forum. Competitiveness at its best. Buy and fly T2 fitted Stabbers if you want the price to go down. Oh wait, they are crap. I would bet that you own a few T2 BPO's. I am sowwy massa, I wot tak baly about you again. I am such a noob and growel at yu fete. ples sell tek 2 mods at resunable prices.
Vince Draken Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:23:00 - [46] Originally by: mishkof Edited by: mishkof on 15/10/2006 09:13:17 I love seeing the fanboys mutterings in these threads. they are quite amusing. "Yes the prices are fine. Just grind for a week to fit a raven, it will be alright Little Joey...While you go ahead and do that I am off to sell a couple more GTC's to the unemployed that play this game." "What? You cant afford a vega??? You noob." What's funny is that you complain about other peoples posts, yet yours is just as bad if not worse. Lets be clear here, the inflation is mostly T2 related. This is due to a growing demand and a static supply. I remember when people complained about 100M isk HAC's not too long ago. Quite honestly, I am doubting invention is going to be the answer. I hope I am wrong. I think what CCP did with the lottery and let it fester so long without addressing it created some massive isk imballances that will never be corrected. The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such.
Vince Draken Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:25:00 - [47] Originally by: elrikyo Can People stop using that irritating U.S dictionary, and start spelling words properly. Labour not Labor....... so many other words in eve too :( I guess you should have created the Internet. The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such.
mishkof Caldari Emerald Empire Muffins of Mayhem	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:30:00 - [48] Edited by: mishkof on 15/10/2006 09:33:47 Originally by: Vince Draken What's funny is that you complain about other peoples posts, yet yours is just as bad if not worse. Lets be clear here, the inflation is mostly T2 related. This is due to a growing demand and a static supply. I remember when people complained about 100M isk HAC's not too long ago. Quite honestly, I am doubting invention is going to be the answer. I hope I am wrong. I think what CCP did with the lottery and let it fester so long without addressing it created some massive isk imballances that will never be corrected. WTF are you talking about? I know invention probably isnt going to have a dramaitc affect on T2 prices. Why do you think I responded to this post the way I did? you pretty much agreed with me and flamed me in the same post. I just love it when T2 BPO owners come on here and defend the ridiculous nature of the T2 market. Are you gonna tell me the Tech 2 market isnt ridiculous?
Cmdr Sy Off Balance Sheet Entity	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:38:00 - [49] Originally by: Vince Draken Quite honestly, I am doubting invention is going to be the answer. I hope I am wrong. I read the Invention blog, and it struck me that no production chain with that many steps requiring specialist input, is going to yield a product that will compete on price with existing T2. They included numerous "mini professions" in there, forgetting to take a step back from their pet project of interconnecting NPCing and production specialists, to realise that every link in the chain is going to impose a mark-up. In real life, large high tech companies are often run on the principle that every department involved in a product has to be profitable in its own right, and achieves this by adding a mark-up to whatever goods and services it supplies. The end result is that the sticker price can be double the manufacturing cost, or even some large multiple, and this is the accepted price because it is a self-sustaining structural reality that no-one can do anything about. Unless every step in the chain can be effectively managed by the same small group of individuals to produce, regularly and predictably, a product in relatively large volume, most people who find themselves with something to offer to the process will end up selling into a buy order placed by some conglomerate. CCP would simply be creating a few more seats on the board of tycoons.
Yann Xonogoth Gallente Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:40:00 - [50] mmm I am not sure if I understood it right: You can buy legally ISK for real money? Say me yes, and I leave EVE instantly. Yann Xonogoth Miner for the Multiverse Corporation

mishkof Caldari Emerald Empire Muffins of Mayhem	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:44:00 - [51] Originally by: Yann Xonogoth mmm I am not sure if I understood it right: You can buy legally ISK for real money? Say me yes, and I leave EVE instantly. Look at the sell forums(specifically the abbreviated word GTC). It isnt "direct" yet at the same time doasnt really take to much effort.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:58:00 - [52] Originally by: Yann Xonogoth mmm I am not sure if I understood it right: You can buy legally ISK for real money? Say me yes, and I leave EVE instantly. Unfortunately, yes. That's the reason you see clueless dolts running around with eBayed characters in faction battleships and expensive t2 ships, with zero clue on how to use them. It's also one of the causes of the current price craziness, since some people just want skip all this boring "game" stuff and buy all the isk they want... so the sellers can jack up prices to heavens, because there's always some bought-isk idiot who's willing to buy the stuff. Sigh. Allowing GTC sales is one of the biggest mistakes in EVE, right after the t2 lottery. It's introducing a lot of unhealthy elements into the game.
Yann Xonogoth Gallente Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.15 10:12:00 - [53] Edited by: Yann Xonogoth on 15/10/2006 10:15:07 This is indeed very sad. So far I had only good things to say about EVE, but this last news is... wow, cant find the words This destroys a MMO, simple as that. A good thing that I started only 2 weeks ago, it will be easy for me to quit. Sad news for all of you who have spend so much time in this game. EDIT. Many people play MMO because the ingame economy is "legit", without interraction from the RL. As soon as you start allowing items or ingame money to be bought, it's like legalizing dupes, character trainers, and all kind of cheats. I guess that the next step is : pay 100Ç for 5,000,000 SP, mmm? I am D I S G U S T E D. Bye bye EVE. Yann Xonogoth Miner for the Multiverse Corporation
Tek'a Rain Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.10.15 10:28:00 - [54] your stuff, can I have it? anyhow. I dont see so much market horror in the non-t2 chain. sure, there are bad spots. like Destroyer prices (or anything prices) at starter station are most often some insane 100% about regional sales averages, and some items Drop or Shoot in price. Connections skillbooks dropping price because supply is increasing, some factional items skyrockets because the Complex that supplyed them suddenly dried up and is now giving out 1/100th the number. (angel ships and frigates, right?) but Overall its just a slow, moderate inflation in the t1 sector, which si to be expected. dont get me started on drones. Blaque or Foiritan
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.15 10:44:00 - [55] You numpties , you don't really get it do you ? Invention is not a feature, it's a tool for CCP. With invention they improve their control over the balancing of tech2 prices on the market. Ever since the lottery people have complained that CCP should somehow cap tech2 prices at mineral cost + fair margin. I can tell you right here and right now that they are not going to, period. Tech2 is supposed to be damn expensive, it is going to be damn expensive. Your right to it does not depend on the skills to use it, but on the isk to buy it. That's the risk for your reward: monetary units not covered by insurance. Variable prices are also a great FOTM dampening mechanism for tech2 ships. Vagabonds are 300m+ because of what ? Right, because they are overpowered, they are the FOTM (well, multiple months now actually). Everyone wants one, only a few can get one. Expensive FOTM's aren't abused as much as inexpensive FOTM's, because you're not very likely to be hurling 300m ships at anyone that passes by now are you ? So, expensive and variably-priced tech2 is part of the design, and is not going to change. So why invention ? Invention can be a great tool assuming CCP code in the succes rate per individual item rather then as an overall formula to cover the whole of the process. Individual succes rates mean they can tweak the prices of every single tech2 item indirectly by changing the chance of succesfull invention, or changing the efficiency of the resulting bpc, or changing the requirement of the invention process itself even. You see ? All things they can finetune to take more control over the tech2 markets. Just don't expect HAC's to drop below 100m isk or so, because I'd say that that simply should be roughly the intended balance point. Old blog
Caletha	Posted - 2006.10.15 10:59:00 - [56] Cry me a river about GTC's tbh. Its purely a redistribution of already existing ISK. It has nothing to do with a Vagabond reaching 300m. Neither does the 'its overpowered' play a part, because honestly without a snake implant set its not. Yes its fast but its damage and tanking ability is sub-par. Everything in Eve has become way more expensive in the last month or so. Take a look at the F85 damage controls, they used to be 3m for ages, now suddenly their 5-6m? The best non-faction web (Fleeting, 90%) used to be 3m for ages, now their also 5-6m? Several other items have had a recent spur in price like this (Sensor Damp's, Target painters, etc). Lets take a look at some faction stuff, a Macherial went from 500-600m to 900m. A Gist B-Type XLarge Shield Booster went from 450 (a price it had for MONTHS) to 700-800m. A Gistii A-Type Small Shield Booster went from 110 to 150-160m. A Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amp went from 95 to 200+. With several T2 stuff its really the same, Vagabonds, Cerberus, Deimos, etc. They've all went up 100m in the last month or two. Thats not something you can blame on GTC's, or blame on just demand. I think I'll go into faction item-collecting though, buy them now, sell them in a month for 150% of their current price. Same for hac's etc.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.15 11:15:00 - [57] Edited by: Plutoinum on 15/10/2006 11:18:27 Originally by: spurious signal What's happening is that the prices of the most wanted items are increasing - HACs, Cloaks, Command Ships etc. That the price of command ships would steadily increase for some time, after all BPOs were given out, was imho a no-brainer, because the skill requirements are quite high. If I had had billions of isk, I think I would have bought cheap command ships to resell them later. /edit but ok, 425mm t2 rails would have been a better deal after the announcment of the rokh Having a break from EVE until my broadband connection is working again.
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.15 11:40:00 - [58] Close down the GTC sales.. 1, you`llget a market wehre rl money doesnt manipulate it.. (if you could pay 1 dollar rl money to fly a dread it would be rally tempting and the market would get up to the point where it cost so much in isk that I`d have to pay more rl money than I would want to... wehre I woiuld quit buying it for rl money.. (this is how it affects market) 2 lots of ppl farm isk and use em on gtc to suppport several accounts. Remove gtc and the alt gallore will be gone (I know ppl who got 10 accounts n such)Allso this will decrease lag overall... However this will impact the few ppl who rely on gtc to support their main account.. but thouse who are so poor they cant afford to play eve should not and frankly I dont see how they can support owning a computer. Allso this is a very little % of the player base and I`m going to be flamed for this but who cares.. Decrease lag :P even better.. Put thouse who want to use gtc on an other server.. Or you could put me and the rest who dont want GTC on another server.. I dont care...
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.10.15 11:44:00 - [59] kali done right will reduce high end t2 prices tho others are unlikley to move much either
Zaldoza Caldari Holographic MindWare Constructions	Posted - 2006.10.15 12:00:00 - [60] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 15/10/2006 08:58:04 The problem is not GTC sales, the problem is that making ISK is too easy. GTC sales just redistribute chunks of ISK, but someone actually had to make that ISK in the first place. With 90 day cards getting near the 400mil mark, that indicates that players who buy the codes are not struggling to make ISK, and probably have plenty left over to fund their characters needs too. If anything, the increase of GTC ISK prices is a good indication of the ease of ISK making. So lets say they made it harder to make isk,the sellers would be forced to lower prices on gtc and other things.It would change nothing,they would still be in controll. Zaldoc...Miner Zaldoza..Mission Runner



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