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VIrtual Economies Attract Real World Tax Authorities

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Ghoest	Posted - 2006.10.16 17:00:00 - [1] In a game like WOW all the tie ins to real world economys are illegal. If you make real profit you have to report it, but you cant be changed for items in game because technically you dont own them. When you ebay gold from WOW the money you make is technically pofit from fraud. Wherever you went - here you are.
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.10.16 17:57:00 - [2] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Ghoest In a game like WOW all the tie ins to real world economys are illegal. If you make real profit you have to report it, but you cant be changed for items in game because technically you dont own them. When you ebay gold from WOW the money you make is technically pofit from fraud. They are not illegal. They are violations of the EULA which has been variously charciterized as uneforceable and a guidline, not a contract. Meaning, under the law, nothing is illegal about selling in game currencies. Even in games where it is against the rules. The issue here is that they aren't going to just up and tax you on what you have in online games. They are first going to legally redifine who owns what. And that is going to single handedly shut down the MMO worlds. Because as soon as CCP is legally liable for your "property" loss, this game can't be sustained. No they are illegal if the service provider says they are. All transactions take place in part on the the server which is owned/opperated by the game company. They are allowed to dictate what happend on their server. If it was as you said the game operaters would not be allowed to ban accounts and "seize" assets in the account for breaking the EULA. Wherever you went - here you are.
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.10.16 19:07:00 - [3] If an MMO provider took away some kids items that he bought on EBAY his parents could not sue the company and win. They could could sue the seller for fraud though and probably win(assumming they could actually find the seller.) I use the example of a kid becuase it gives an avenue for the buy to avoid blame. (And yes in a jury trial anything is possible, but remember just because a jury let OJ commit murder that doesnt make murder illegal.) You can argue the semantics of "legal" all you want. But in practice it would be fraud and thus illigal by the standards that matter most. Wherever you went - here you are.
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:01:00 - [4] Edited by: Ghoest on 16/10/2006 20:04:17 As I explained and you keep dodging the rules and control of the server create defacto ownership. Once ownership is established we have plenty of existing laws to govern it, unless they write a new more specific law to superceded the existing laws. Eulas may not be legally binding as contracts. But ownership is clearly defined in this case none the less. You seem to have confused the insubstancial nature of Eulas with the server owners ability to claim his property. My previous example clearly show who has ownerships(the server operator) in as long they dont dont specificaly give it away, in which case it could be argued. EDIT: I dont misunderstand the law. Your analogy was pathetic. A better analogy would be trying to sell the engine parts from a car you have rented. Its fraud because you dont own them. Wherever you went - here you are.
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.10.16 21:03:00 - [5] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Ghoest Edited by: Ghoest on 16/10/2006 20:04:17 As I explained and you keep dodging the rules and control of the server create defacto ownership. Once ownership is established we have plenty of existing laws to govern it, unless they write a new more specific law to superceded the existing laws. Eulas may not be legally binding as contracts. But ownership is clearly defined in this case none the less. You seem to have confused the insubstancial nature of Eulas with the server owners ability to claim his property. My previous example clearly show who has ownerships(the server operator) in as long they dont dont specificaly give it away, in which case it could be argued. EDIT: I dont misunderstand the law. Your analogy was pathetic. A better analogy would be trying to sell the engine parts from a car you have rented. Its fraud because you dont own them. Still not getting it. While CCP clearly owns the "property", you aren't buying property when you buy isk or ships. You are paying for time to acquire that property. Quote: Disclaimer: All characters, items and ISK in Eve Online are the sole property of CCP, Simon and Schuster a Viacom company. This auction is NOT for the ownership of their intellectual property but it is merely for the time I spent acquiring the ISK or items and getting them to you. By bidding on this auction you are stating that you are in NO way affiliated with CCP, Simon and Schuster or a Viacom affiliated company. Eve Online is a trademark of CCP, Simon and Schuster interactive a division of Simon and Schuster the publishing operation of Viacom Inc. Taken from ebay isk seller. There is no fraud taking place. Get a clue. Ah ha - your mistake is not looking in the context of this disscussion. My entire case was based on a senerio where the Goverment decided to pursue virtual money and items as capital gains. Read my original post. If the Goverment decided to pursue virtual property as a capital gain then that it really doesnt matter if the Ebayer uses a little caveat like that. If the caveat was accept it would mean the govrt wasnt pursuing capital gains hich the condition this entire line of argument is based on You argued your self into a hole, you cant have it both ways. Now hush. Back to my original point. If the Goverment did decide to asign value to virtual items based on ebay sales the only protection gamers will have is if the service provider claims ownership of all content and thus makes all real world sales fraudulent. Wherever you went - here you are.
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.10.16 21:43:00 - [6] Like I pointed ou earlier he is just argueing the semantics of "legal". Does a law make some thing illegal or does a precident? Really hes just argueing in circles. He is vastly over extending the ramifications of some aspects of EULAs being uninforcable. And most hes just argueing even beyond his on self contridictions. Wherever you went - here you are.
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.10.16 22:08:00 - [7] I proved you wrong already. Your response was "I don't think I have it both ways." Then you took 2 steps back and repeated the point I had just shown to be moot based on the context of the discussion. Im not going to argue any more with you. Its as if I explained to you how you cant ride a bicycle on water, and you keep saying I am wrong then explain who you ride on the streat. Any way I was telling Matthew to dismiss you. I was not trying to re-engage you. Wherever you went - here you are.

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