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JustBlaze	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:45:00 - [31] 6 t2 torp launchers with furys + painters = dead everyone! ^^
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:47:00 - [32] Edited by: welsh wizard on 17/10/2006 12:47:44 Originally by: JustBlaze 6 t2 torp launchers with furys + painters = dead everyone! ^^ Until they shoot back and/or their higher dps ship with tank gets into its optimal. edit: Or they warp off. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 13:02:00 - [33] Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 13:03:19 Originally by: Kunming Originally by: LUKEC Read again... i regularly use mwd raven, that's why i love it, like it and most certainly they don't hit me but "evil them". /me scratches head.. huh? The reply to your quote ended with the first line, the rest was to enlighten the rest of the community. Sorry for the confusion.. I'm well aware you are using missiles by neccesarity and not by choice, if I trained up for a raven, they nerf it by the time I'm there, so I rather whine about overpowered stuff and stick to what I like doing.. blasters & close-range-love. alts. I gave up on blasters when i realized that it takes setup to kill 5-10ppl at once to get them to figth you. After that, i stick with raven for solo purposes. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 13:07:00 - [34] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 17/10/2006 12:47:44 Originally by: JustBlaze 6 t2 torp launchers with furys + painters = dead everyone! ^^ Until they shoot back and/or their higher dps ship with tank gets into its optimal. edit: Or they warp off. Why bother with furys when you can spam javelins :P Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Andrew Redburn Caldari adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 14:51:00 - [35] Edited by: Andrew Redburn on 17/10/2006 14:54:52 I don't know what skills you all have, but I got BS lv5, all Dmg related Missle skills to 5, Cruise Spec 5 and all other missle skills to 4 or 5 (>10M in total just missles). MY Raven with 6 CM II and 3 BCU IIs does 450DPS to a BS (Megathron, hull) with T1 missles. With Torps best I get is around 630DPS on another BS (Megathron, hull, no idea if it was any T1 or T2 ammo), granted this is slightly more than CMS, but already on a cruiser my CMs are better. Torps Tech II actually don't do more damage on a BS, but of course on a smaller ship, still CMs are better imho since you can use ALL your slots and don't have CPU/PG problems at all. Also it is completly IMPOSSIBLE to have several Torps/CM volleys hit a target at same time. My torps move faster than ANY MWDING BS actually could and with a rof of ~7s a torp will already have travelled 20km while you just made >10km. You can never have more dps on a missle boat than on a gunboat these days, but of course you can have EW/DPS or Tank/DPS the same time plus actually HIT small targets (though a torp does only minor damage on a frig). Fitting a ridicoulos amount of webs and painters will gimp any setup...
Andrew Redburn Caldari adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 14:54:00 - [36] Originally by: Kunming - There is no EW system that neutralizes ships with missile launchers Jamming will stop any torp ship...and being unable to lock due to dampeners will as well. Just having no tracking disruptor for missles does not mean there is no EW at all.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 15:39:00 - [37] Originally by: Andrew Redburn Edited by: Andrew Redburn on 17/10/2006 14:54:52 I don't know what skills you all have, but I got BS lv5, all Dmg related Missle skills to 5, Cruise Spec 5 and all other missle skills to 4 or 5 (>10M in total just missles). MY Raven with 6 CM II and 3 BCU IIs does 450DPS to a BS (Megathron, hull) with T1 missles. With Torps best I get is around 630DPS on another BS (Megathron, hull, no idea if it was any T1 or T2 ammo), granted this is slightly more than CMS, but already on a cruiser my CMs are better. Torps Tech II actually don't do more damage on a BS, but of course on a smaller ship, still CMs are better imho since you can use ALL your slots and don't have CPU/PG problems at all. Also it is completly IMPOSSIBLE to have several Torps/CM volleys hit a target at same time. My torps move faster than ANY MWDING BS actually could and with a rof of ~7s a torp will already have travelled 20km while you just made >10km. You can never have more dps on a missle boat than on a gunboat these days, but of course you can have EW/DPS or Tank/DPS the same time plus actually HIT small targets (though a torp does only minor damage on a frig). Fitting a ridicoulos amount of webs and painters will gimp any setup... Well ... almost instantly, to satisfy you. I manage to get 4 volleys into bs at less than 11.25s which will effectively break armor tank. Fact that you can make that exclusively explosive is just bonus. And huh i will have 688dps on t2 torpraven, as i stated before, mega with electrons and 1 dmg mod does < 700dps with guns(and that's biggest gun you can fit with worthy tank, those dual t2 reps make baby jesus cry). Also every long range bs does less, apart from geddon (usage of missiles in fleet is still sort of questionable, you need to shoot secondary:P if there is more than 5 bs that know what primary is ) Plus you are all forgetting about effetive dps. Omg blasterthron does 1400dps ... right when you get in range, slow down, ... it takes like 20s unless it's undock figth or land straight ontop of target (which does not happen apart vs nub) Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Robet Katrix Beagle Corp R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.17 15:52:00 - [38] Alright, here is the scoop. plain and simple. Missiles hit everything (provided it doesn't MWD away @ 4k+) In turn missiles do ** dmg in a moderate array of situations. T2 torps(read JAVELINS) do as stated, about 600dps give or take. because with my skills i can get nowhere near that im going to assume there are at least 2 bcs's involved. maybe 3. Since 4 is rare and nearly impossible to fit. now 600dps isn't bad, but when you realize that a gank thorax can do about the same dps, its kind of saddening. because at peak a raven will get 800 dps with drones included. please do not tell me how much dmg rage torpedos get. Rage torpedos are the tiest peices of ** in this game. 4 TP's for them to hit strong. 4!!! unless you have a huginnin wingmate, i cant see any reason to have that many TP's around. and if you have a huginnin why not just a good setup gank cruiser? In the last three or four months i have not found a single time in which i could use rage torpedos save one carrier attack. rage also go slow as ass, so dont forget that the time to hit, is MONSTROUS. as welsh said before. normal caldari, missile users look at thee threads and cry. i wish rather than investing millions and millions in missile sp i would have got a t2 large turret. i would in a heartbeat trade my missiles for a turret spec. just because it LOOKS easy does not mean it is.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 15:53:00 - [39] now now... do you realize that rail thorax has range of almighty 60km with t2 ammo... crow can achieve that. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:25:00 - [40] I could live with missiles having half the damage of any turret if turrets had half the range of the missiles, and if you could warp in at greater distance from things. PVE aside, that would make fleet combat with missiles viable---you'd warp to the battle out of range of all the turret ships, and just start lobbing missiles into the fray. You wouldn't do much damage, but you wouldn't take any from anything other than the OTHER side's missile ships either, unless the turret ships wanted to close about 125km to you first. But, the pirates whine for their 250km sniper setups and get given them, so missiles (and especially Ravens) remain the "one trick pony"...good for level 4 missions and not much else. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:28:00 - [41] Originally by: welsh wizard Theres lots of arguments posed against Missiles that use completely unrealistic variables and situations that any missile user will tell you very rarely happen in combat. QFT. EVE is not a spreadsheet. For every situation where you can show good Torp damage, someone else can show you one where it sucks. And no-one ever, ever, EVER adds the line "+5% ROF for my missile implants, but +10% ROF and +5% damage for my TURRET implants". Yes, you really can fit all three turret implants at once.(or certainly two...been a while since I checked). Missile users don't even GET a damage implant --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:30:00 - [42] Originally by: Grey Area I could live with missiles having half the damage of any turret if turrets had half the range of the missiles, and if you could warp in at greater distance from things. You can warp at any desirable range, all you need is cloaker alt. This was uber argument in raven vs thron threads of old. You have 10 times range of turrets that do 33% more damage. You have more damage than long range guns(apart from geddon) Quote: But, the pirates whine for their 250km sniper setups and get given them, so missiles (and especially Ravens) remain the "one trick pony"...good for level 4 missions and not much else. This coming from a guy telling me in crystal thread about pvp... raven is solid ship in pvp. In fleets, there are better ships, for instance scorp which is caldari. Plus you are getting rokh soon. When you bring out argument about missiles and delayed damage, i'll start whining about heavy drones and delayed damage, just for sake of it. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:31:00 - [43] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: welsh wizard Theres lots of arguments posed against Missiles that use completely unrealistic variables and situations that any missile user will tell you very rarely happen in combat. QFT. EVE is not a spreadsheet. For every situation where you can show good Torp damage, someone else can show you one where it sucks. And no-one ever, ever, EVER adds the line "+5% ROF for my missile implants, but +10% ROF and +5% damage for my TURRET implants". Yes, you really can fit all three turret implants at once.(or certainly two...been a while since I checked). Missile users don't even GET a damage implant But please, show me 10% rof implants and 5% dmg implants for big guns. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:37:00 - [44] 688 dps from T1 torpedos is very nice when you consider the tank that can be used at the same time. The only way a Blasterthron will win against such a Raven is using Void L (if you use AM you will die before breaking the Raven's tank), and with equally skilled pilots it's still very close - i.e. 'hanging on with a bit of structure left' close. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:43:00 - [45] Originally by: Gabriel Karade 688 dps from T1 torpedos is very nice when you consider the tank that can be used at the same time. The only way a Blasterthron will win against such a Raven is using Void L (if you use AM you will die before breaking the Raven's tank), and with equally skilled pilots it's still very close - i.e. 'hanging on with a bit of structure left' close. Thron in tank mode needs really good dmg mod + 2 dmg implants to do such damage with void. This is before drones, then it's 5 heavys vs 5 meds, but range on raven can makes up for that difference easy.
Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:45:00 - [46] Originally by: welsh wizard Understand that when you ask for a Javelin nerf Caldari pilots see it as a request to trash the one area our battleship excels in. The Raven is the top mission runner, top ncper, and highly effective in small gangs. For the sake of argument, I'll say it sucks solo (but I find that highly debateable). There's little debate about the Raven's lack of abilities in long-range fleet combat. We'll also say that it's not a good miner, just for the sake of completeness. So you excel in many areas, suck in at most three, one of which few other battleships are very good in, anyway. And you can do it with less than 5mil total skill points, where every other battleship needs 10-20mil, at least. You can't have a ship that excels in everything, and no ship in Eve does.
starship enginer	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:46:00 - [47] so LUKEC any good solo raven setups with torps? inc a mwd if possible
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:50:00 - [48] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: welsh wizard Theres lots of arguments posed against Missiles that use completely unrealistic variables and situations that any missile user will tell you very rarely happen in combat. QFT. EVE is not a spreadsheet. For every situation where you can show good Torp damage, someone else can show you one where it sucks. And no-one ever, ever, EVER adds the line "+5% ROF for my missile implants, but +10% ROF and +5% damage for my TURRET implants". Yes, you really can fit all three turret implants at once.(or certainly two...been a while since I checked). Missile users don't even GET a damage implant But please, show me 10% rof implants and 5% dmg implants for big guns. As far as I recall, you can fit 2 damage implants for turrets at once (one for ROF, one for damage), and only one for missiles (for ROF). That gives turrets an amazing... 5% DPS if they can be arsed to PvP with about 400mil (?) of implants in their heads. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:57:00 - [49] Originally by: starship enginer so LUKEC any good solo raven setups with torps? inc a mwd if possible Just forget about shield tank and you have one.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 17:00:00 - [50] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: welsh wizard Theres lots of arguments posed against Missiles that use completely unrealistic variables and situations that any missile user will tell you very rarely happen in combat. QFT. EVE is not a spreadsheet. For every situation where you can show good Torp damage, someone else can show you one where it sucks. And no-one ever, ever, EVER adds the line "+5% ROF for my missile implants, but +10% ROF and +5% damage for my TURRET implants". Yes, you really can fit all three turret implants at once.(or certainly two...been a while since I checked). Missile users don't even GET a damage implant But please, show me 10% rof implants and 5% dmg implants for big guns. As far as I recall, you can fit 2 damage implants for turrets at once (one for ROF, one for damage), and only one for missiles (for ROF). That gives turrets an amazing... 5% DPS if they can be arsed to PvP with about 400mil (?) of implants in their heads. Yes you can, sadly there are only 3% implant for large guns(rof and dmg mod for all guns are both slot 9, while small guns are 6, med 8, large 10). Plus slot 10 is used by mindlinks, cpu implants(slot 6 for missiles), armor hp implants(slot 7 or 8 for shields), so it's either 3% more dmg or something far more useful.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:10:00 - [51] Originally by: Frezik Originally by: welsh wizard Understand that when you ask for a Javelin nerf Caldari pilots see it as a request to trash the one area our battleship excels in. The Raven is the top mission runner, top ncper, and highly effective in small gangs. For the sake of argument, I'll say it sucks solo (but I find that highly debateable). There's little debate about the Raven's lack of abilities in long-range fleet combat. We'll also say that it's not a good miner, just for the sake of completeness. So you excel in many areas, suck in at most three, one of which few other battleships are very good in, anyway. And you can do it with less than 5mil total skill points, where every other battleship needs 10-20mil, at least. You can't have a ship that excels in everything, and no ship in Eve does. I don't give two fiddles abouts its ability to blow up npc's. We're talking about a Javelin nerf and therefore a player versus player nerf. As for the 5million skill point thing, for npc'ing maybe, for pvp? Not a chance, a Raven is cannon fodder in a noobs hands. Understand how bad missiles are without at least 3mil skill points in missiles alone. Don't take my word for it, try it. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Muad 'dib Caldari Smoking Hillbillys	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:27:00 - [52] Navy raven with 3x dread ballistic and one T2 did 1250 dmg per torp (rages) at 7.5(cant remeber the exact) sec fire rate, on a POS on the test server
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:37:00 - [53] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: starship enginer so LUKEC any good solo raven setups with torps? inc a mwd if possible Just forget about shield tank and you have one. Just forget about any tank. And to have reasonable fit(at least one nosferatu to not being easy prey for first inter you will meet) you have to put RCU t2 and PDS t2.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:38:00 - [54] Originally by: LUKEC alts. I gave up on blasters when i realized that it takes setup to kill 5-10ppl at once to get them to figth you. After that, i stick with raven for solo purposes. Would you be so kind to share with us your setup?
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:38:00 - [55] Originally by: JustBlaze 6 t2 torp launchers with furys + painters = dead everyone! ^^ There is no fury torp.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:44:00 - [56] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: LUKEC alts. I gave up on blasters when i realized that it takes setup to kill 5-10ppl at once to get them to figth you. After that, i stick with raven for solo purposes. Would you be so kind to share with us your setup? No. Plus you don't need heavy nosf.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:46:00 - [57] Originally by: LUKEC Would you be so kind to share with us your setup? No. Bingo! There is no reasonable solo PvP setup for Raven in Eve. Quote: Plus you don't need heavy nosf. And interceptor will trash you.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:50:00 - [58] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: LUKEC Would you be so kind to share with us your setup? No. Bingo! There is no reasonable solo PvP setup for Raven in Eve. Quote: Plus you don't need heavy nosf. And interceptor will trash you. Have you ever looked at interceptor's lock range or sensor strength? + you get tinfoil hat for non existance... And grow some ballz and post with your main.
korrey Taurus Inc	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:54:00 - [59] I dont normally step in to these kind of conversations, but 688 DPS on a Raven seems overpowered. Think, a geddon gets about 800 DPS or more but thats sacrificing any sort of tank...Id rather have Ravens uber tank AND 688 DPS then 1,000 and no tank.
Xasz Unemployment Office	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:07:00 - [60] ...lol. Let's take 10 seconds and look at the OP. This thread has turned into 1 giant flame war (as most missile/raven/caldari threads do). Perhaps we could stay on topic, and take the flame war elsewhere? Unemployment Office [NOJOB], now firing. Contact Xasz or Jaguar Warrior for details.

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