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Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 09:40:00 - [1] Iam just curious, whats your best DPS in a Raven. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 09:43:00 - [2] Ask Shin Ra. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Sir Bart	Posted - 2006.10.17 09:52:00 - [3] I worked out all ships once for max dps about 8 months ago. Raven using t2 torps and target painters (against a BS) can acheive 2nd highest dps (to the megathron /w blasters). Geddon was third. Sir Bart
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 10:12:00 - [4] Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp Only t2 stuff, that's t1/javelin torps. Add drones, number of launchers as you like. For painters+rages, it's 50% more. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.17 10:40:00 - [5] Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp Only t2 stuff, that's t1/javelin torps. Add drones, number of launchers as you like. For painters+rages, it's 50% more. Yeah, missile damage sucks. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 10:54:00 - [6] Originally by: Jim McGregor Yeah, missile damage sucks. Oh yes. The highest damage output of this deadly raven with 6 torp launchers and maxed skills being... 688. Wow. Not to mention that 3/8 battleship's sigs are too small to be affected fully. Oh, and anyone with an afterburner or microwarp on their battleship will see a pretty good damage reduction (if not using javelins). Missiles r teh pwn! As for rages and painters, those require people to be going less than 100m/s and to have a sig of 1000 for that. That means that you need 5 midslots used up (web and 4 painters) to get that DPS out. That amazing 1032 DPS. Not to mention that with rage torps, you can't actually sustain 4 painters and a stasis web. Does nice things to your cap, that Also, for those who were wondering, hail/rage typhoon has the highest max possible DPS IIRC, as the only BS with 8 weapon hardpoints with a damage bonus, as well as a full drone bay. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Uggster Caldari Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.17 10:58:00 - [7] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Jim McGregor Yeah, missile damage sucks. Oh yes. The highest damage output of this deadly raven with 6 torp launchers and maxed skills being... 688. Wow. Not to mention that 3/8 battleship's sigs are too small to be affected fully. Oh, and anyone with an afterburner or microwarp on their battleship will see a pretty good damage reduction (if not using javelins). Missiles r teh pwn! As for rages and painters, those require people to be going less than 100m/s and to have a sig of 1000 for that. That means that you need 5 midslots used up (web and 4 painters) to get that DPS out. That amazing 1032 DPS. Not to mention that with rage torps, you can't actually sustain 4 painters and a stasis web. Does nice things to your cap, that Also, for those who were wondering, hail/rage typhoon has the highest max possible DPS IIRC, as the only BS with 8 weapon hardpoints with a damage bonus, as well as a full drone bay. I wonder....have you ever been hit by a missile since the patch just after you have turned on a MWD. It's not a pretty sight. _______________________________________________ Sig removed as inappropriate- Tirg
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:00:00 - [8] Originally by: Uggster I wonder....have you ever been hit by a missile since the patch just after you have turned on a MWD. It's not a pretty sight. Actually, yes I have. However, shortly after the sad explosion of my rupture (RIP Blowdry), I came to realise that you can, in fact, SEE the missiles. And then, if one is about to hit you, you don't turn on your MWD. Since discovering this fact, my life has changed, and so can yours! RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:04:00 - [9] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Jim McGregor Yeah, missile damage sucks. Oh yes. The highest damage output of this deadly raven with 6 torp launchers and maxed skills being... 688. Wow. Not to mention that 3/8 battleship's sigs are too small to be affected fully. Oh, and anyone with an afterburner or microwarp on their battleship will see a pretty good damage reduction (if not using javelins). Missiles r teh pwn! As for rages and painters, those require people to be going less than 100m/s and to have a sig of 1000 for that. That means that you need 5 midslots used up (web and 4 painters) to get that DPS out. That amazing 1032 DPS. Not to mention that with rage torps, you can't actually sustain 4 painters and a stasis web. Does nice things to your cap, that Also, for those who were wondering, hail/rage typhoon has the highest max possible DPS IIRC, as the only BS with 8 weapon hardpoints with a damage bonus, as well as a full drone bay. Yeah raven sucks, doesn't it. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:10:00 - [10] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp Only t2 stuff, that's t1/javelin torps. Add drones, number of launchers as you like. For painters+rages, it's 50% more. Yeah, missile damage sucks. Thats with an utterly ridiculous setup that no-one in their right mind would use in a real Eve pvp scenario... Missiles give the least dps with useable setups. Simple. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:13:00 - [11] Originally by: LUKEC Yeah raven sucks, doesn't it. Raven most definitely does not suck, but saying it has amazing DPS is just plain wrong. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:16:00 - [12] Some time ago: - Missiles hit everything up to full dmg regardless of size/speed etc. The only defence against missiles is out running them with high-speed or a well timed smartbomb (only possible on a BS, not on lower class before seriously gimping your setup). Some missile changes come in (some call it a nerf, I call it a boost): - Missiles still hit everything, dmg reduced by low signature and high speed. The speed is upped so the only defence against missiles which was out running them or smartbombing them is no more an option. Conditions under which turret shots miss their target completely, missiles still do dmg. Some caldari whinage later: - Missiles get their T2 versions which removes their penalties added during the "some missile changes" era and puts them back into the superior, overpowered, position back before any change occured. Some more problems: - Missile HP was increased, defender dmg NOT - Missile speed was increased, defender speed NOT - There is no EW system that neutralizes ships with missile launchers - Missiles were given 0 cap usage so neutralizing their cap isnt an option anymore either If fleet combat wasnt this "Sniper-blob" bull** and was more like back 2-3 years ago with a med-close range slug fest then we would see much more whinage against missiles. All I want is an effective counter module against missiles, just like tracking disruptors.**
Johnny Bravo Gallente Draconis Navitas Aeterna Pure.	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:19:00 - [13] Look here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any...
Fuglife Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:21:00 - [14] Raven pilots have it easy, afk pvp. Please resize your e-peen to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes No - Fuglife Please its far too big - Eris
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:23:00 - [15] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp Only t2 stuff, that's t1/javelin torps. Add drones, number of launchers as you like. For painters+rages, it's 50% more. Yeah, missile damage sucks. Thats with an utterly ridiculous setup that no-one in their right mind would use in a real Eve pvp scenario... Missiles give the least dps with useable setups. Simple. Yeah and we constantly do gentleman style 1-on-1s and DPS is the determining factor for the outcome of a fight.. suuure The fact that a missile boat can orbit you at MWD speeds and do full dmg while your guns have no chance of tracking it is already overpowering missiles. Tracking > DPS... Since missile have no tracking they also dont need any DPS, apparently Tuxford thinks otherwise and we will soon see high-DPS assault missiles. Oh I dont even wanna think about the T2 versions of those.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:26:00 - [16] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp Only t2 stuff, that's t1/javelin torps. Add drones, number of launchers as you like. For painters+rages, it's 50% more. Yeah, missile damage sucks. Thats with an utterly ridiculous setup that no-one in their right mind would use in a real Eve pvp scenario... Missiles give the least dps with useable setups. Simple. Ofcourse you can reduce damage and rof by swithching some of 4 bcus II to WCS I, but ... i can fit very viable setups with 4x t2 bcus and possibly one of best tanks ingame. Just for muppets whining about dmg, blasterthron with electrons and 1 good dmg mod does less than 700dps with 2x 3% dmg implants. Ofc drones are life saver there. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:27:00 - [17] Originally by: Kunming Some time ago: - Missiles hit everything up to full dmg regardless of size/speed etc. The only defence against missiles is out running them with high-speed or a well timed smartbomb (only possible on a BS, not on lower class before seriously gimping your setup). Some missile changes come in (some call it a nerf, I call it a boost): - Missiles still hit everything, dmg reduced by low signature and high speed. The speed is upped so the only defence against missiles which was out running them or smartbombing them is no more an option. Conditions under which turret shots miss their target completely, missiles still do dmg. Some caldari whinage later: - Missiles get their T2 versions which removes their penalties added during the "some missile changes" era and puts them back into the superior, overpowered, position back before any change occured. Some more problems: - Missile HP was increased, defender dmg NOT - Missile speed was increased, defender speed NOT - There is no EW system that neutralizes ships with missile launchers - Missiles were given 0 cap usage so neutralizing their cap isnt an option anymore either If fleet combat wasnt this "Sniper-blob" bull** and was more like back 2-3 years ago with a med-close range slug fest then we would see much more whinage against missiles. All I want is an effective counter module against missiles, just like tracking disruptors. Caldari were ridiculously overpowered for a long time, no argument there. Then came the missile nerf (with exodus?) which crippled Caldari to the point of uselessness. Even our battleships struggled against tech I cruisers from all the other races because we just couldn't do any damage (this was before ecm changed). You took a Raven up against a Thorax back then and it was 50/50 who would come out alive. It was most definitely a nerf, and now its as balanced as its ever been. Originally by:** anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:28:00 - [18] I take it you haven't ever seen a MWDing raven? Imagine Johnny Vegas ice skating. That's about it. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:30:00 - [19] Originally by: Verus Potestas I take it you haven't ever seen a MWDing raven? Imagine Johnny Vegas ice skating. That's about it. I regularly use it, must say it's funny when 5-6 volleys strike target at once. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Masochist Shinra	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:39:00 - [20] Dual mwd raven was soooo sexyy
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:51:00 - [21] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Verus Potestas I take it you haven't ever seen a MWDing raven? Imagine Johnny Vegas ice skating. That's about it. I regularly use it, must say it's funny when 5-6 volleys strike target at once. Funny? You must have a sick sense of humor.. 5-6 volleys striking target at once means it does more alpha-dmg than an arty-pest on steroids. BTW for those of you who dont get it, you get blow up before you have a chance to activate your repairer/booster, or even if they are running on auto the effect wont counter the huge alpha you gonna eat! Combine that with the ECM tank caldari ships can fit easliy (plenty of meds + plenty of CPU), its disturbing to say the least. Anyway lets only concentrate on missiles (ECMs gonna get nurfed once CCP figures out whats wrong after the next alliance tournament anyway), welsh you seem to agree on most points with us, but fail to see that if you individualize the single elements of missiles they will not appear overpowered, only once you look at them in general context will you see the problems. I'm still insisting on an effective counter vs missiles!
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Kunming Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Verus Potestas I take it you haven't ever seen a MWDing raven? Imagine Johnny Vegas ice skating. That's about it. I regularly use it, must say it's funny when 5-6 volleys strike target at once. Funny? You must have a sick sense of humor.. 5-6 volleys striking target at once means it does more alpha-dmg than an arty-pest on steroids. BTW for those of you who dont get it, you get blow up before you have a chance to activate your repairer/booster, or even if they are running on auto the effect wont counter the huge alpha you gonna eat! Combine that with the ECM tank caldari ships can fit easliy (plenty of meds + plenty of CPU), its disturbing to say the least. Anyway lets only concentrate on missiles (ECMs gonna get nurfed once CCP figures out whats wrong after the next alliance tournament anyway), welsh you seem to agree on most points with us, but fail to see that if you individualize the single elements of missiles they will not appear overpowered, only once you look at them in general context will you see the problems. I'm still insisting on an effective counter vs missiles! Read again... i regularly use mwd raven, that's why i love it, like it and most certainly they don't hit me but "evil them". Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:04:00 - [23] ôLook here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any...ö It that very old? All I know is my Eos without a drone damage bonus kills over twice as fast as all my friends in Ravens, I use drones alone nothing else. I am normally half way though my target before my friends kill their first rat. We often pick 750k battleships and start firing at the same time and even with 50km travel time for drones I kill way faster. When I take my domi with lvl 5 BS for a large drone damage boost I kill Passive shield tanking guide click here
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:15:00 - [24] Originally by: LUKEC Read again... i regularly use mwd raven, that's why i love it, like it and most certainly they don't hit me but "evil them". /me scratches head.. huh? The reply to your quote ended with the first line, the rest was to enlighten the rest of the community. Sorry for the confusion.. I'm well aware you are using missiles by neccesarity and not by choice, if I trained up for a raven, they nerf it by the time I'm there, so I rather whine about overpowered stuff and stick to what I like doing.. blasters & close-range-love.
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Uggster It's not a pretty sight. rage don't have an agility to hit if u got on a orbit. Just it.. Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:24:00 - [26] Originally by: Pottsey ôLook here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any...ö It that very old? All I know is my Eos without a drone damage bonus kills over twice as fast as all my friends in Ravens, I use drones alone nothing else. I am normally half way though my target before my friends kill their first rat. We often pick 750k battleships and start firing at the same time and even with 50km travel time for drones I kill way faster. When I take my domi with lvl 5 BS for a large drone damage boost I kill even faster. That is rage torps. The ones which only hit capitals and POSes, unless you slap 4 painters and a web on RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:27:00 - [27] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Pottsey ôLook here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any...ö It that very old? All I know is my Eos without a drone damage bonus kills over twice as fast as all my friends in Ravens, I use drones alone nothing else. I am normally half way though my target before my friends kill their first rat. We often pick 750k battleships and start firing at the same time and even with 50km travel time for drones I kill way faster. When I take my domi with lvl 5 BS for a large drone damage boost I kill even faster. That is rage torps. The ones which only hit capitals and POSes, unless you slap 4 painters and a web on Which is not hard to do for caldari with their vast amount of mid slots, infact you even have space left for ECM!
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:30:00 - [28] Originally by: Kunming Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Pottsey ôLook here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any...ö It that very old? All I know is my Eos without a drone damage bonus kills over twice as fast as all my friends in Ravens, I use drones alone nothing else. I am normally half way though my target before my friends kill their first rat. We often pick 750k battleships and start firing at the same time and even with 50km travel time for drones I kill way faster. When I take my domi with lvl 5 BS for a large drone damage boost I kill even faster. That is rage torps. The ones which only hit capitals and POSes, unless you slap 4 painters and a web on Which is not hard to do for caldari with their vast amount of mid slots, infact you even have space left for ECM! Yeah. We are awesome like that. We have our 4 painters, our web and maybe even our ECM of win (because scrams are for noobs). Then with zero tank, we can almost match the DPS of a blasterthron! How awesome are we? While I know ravens are very good, rages simply aren't. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:35:00 - [29] Against another raven, with 'most' skills at 4 (MLO 5, Torps 5) I get a base dps of 350 or so. With 5 BCS IIs that's up to about 630dps. Add on some drones, and that's maybe up to 730. If you're using rage torps against a capital ship, you get a very good DPS, but ... well it doesn't come up that often from memory, a 'normal' torp does about 760 damage per shot, a rage does about 1150, but with a 1000m signature, it's not worth using rages unless you have a huginn backing you. The 'breakpoint' is about 700m signature for using rages, which is 75% of 'painting', just to do the same amount of damage. Realistically, I tend to find myself fitting 2-3 BCS, since I'm always running out of CPU and sometimes grid. Siege IIs really do make for hard fittings.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:41:00 - [30] Edited by: welsh wizard on 17/10/2006 12:42:03 I will concede that missiles need a more effective counter. I think that could help lessen many of the problems turret users face against missile pilots. I still think many of you are unable to accept that missiles considerable weaknesses are precisely that, considerable. You come on here and start reeling out numbers and unsubstantiated claims about how effective missiles are. Theres lots of arguments posed against Missiles that use completely unrealistic variables and situations that any missile user will tell you very rarely happen in combat. I can tell you now that experienced Raven pilots read these threads and honestly wonder what the hell you're talking about. It's a case of "Hang on!? Turret users can do this, this and this and I'm stuck with that! Why is he slagging my weapon system off when its actually not good at doing what hes claiming it can do?" You also have to accept that you're just not able to participate in certain scenarios as a missile boat either. Your only use in long range fleet fights is ECM or support killing. You can't properly solo in missile boats (Crow exception) without a tackler because you need to devote your midslots to ECM, tank or both. Surely you agree that Javelins are pretty hopeless for the solo pilot? No point in fighting if you can't hold the enemy in place tbh. In other words, missile ships excel at gang support, which is exactly what they're supposed to do. Understand that when you ask for a Javelin nerf Caldari pilots see it as a request to trash the one area our battleship excels in. If Javelins are nerfed the Raven suddenly becomes a run of the mill pvp battleship. Pretty much all the other races have battleships that excel in one particular area. The exception being the Apocalypse (arguably). We accept that when the BlasterMega or AutoPest gets in range its game over. There isn't many areas that Caldari excel in, support and ECM. That's it. It's a case of we're different, you chose another race and now you want to do the same things we can. This is my opinion, you'll all see yours as more valid, but understand that until you know what its like to be a Caldari pilot your arguments will be scoffed. "But I can fly Caldari ships!" Then you're letting your preference for your other race blind you. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
JustBlaze	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:45:00 - [31] 6 t2 torp launchers with furys + painters = dead everyone! ^^
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:47:00 - [32] Edited by: welsh wizard on 17/10/2006 12:47:44 Originally by: JustBlaze 6 t2 torp launchers with furys + painters = dead everyone! ^^ Until they shoot back and/or their higher dps ship with tank gets into its optimal. edit: Or they warp off. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 13:02:00 - [33] Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 13:03:19 Originally by: Kunming Originally by: LUKEC Read again... i regularly use mwd raven, that's why i love it, like it and most certainly they don't hit me but "evil them". /me scratches head.. huh? The reply to your quote ended with the first line, the rest was to enlighten the rest of the community. Sorry for the confusion.. I'm well aware you are using missiles by neccesarity and not by choice, if I trained up for a raven, they nerf it by the time I'm there, so I rather whine about overpowered stuff and stick to what I like doing.. blasters & close-range-love. alts. I gave up on blasters when i realized that it takes setup to kill 5-10ppl at once to get them to figth you. After that, i stick with raven for solo purposes. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 13:07:00 - [34] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 17/10/2006 12:47:44 Originally by: JustBlaze 6 t2 torp launchers with furys + painters = dead everyone! ^^ Until they shoot back and/or their higher dps ship with tank gets into its optimal. edit: Or they warp off. Why bother with furys when you can spam javelins :P Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Andrew Redburn Caldari adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 14:51:00 - [35] Edited by: Andrew Redburn on 17/10/2006 14:54:52 I don't know what skills you all have, but I got BS lv5, all Dmg related Missle skills to 5, Cruise Spec 5 and all other missle skills to 4 or 5 (>10M in total just missles). MY Raven with 6 CM II and 3 BCU IIs does 450DPS to a BS (Megathron, hull) with T1 missles. With Torps best I get is around 630DPS on another BS (Megathron, hull, no idea if it was any T1 or T2 ammo), granted this is slightly more than CMS, but already on a cruiser my CMs are better. Torps Tech II actually don't do more damage on a BS, but of course on a smaller ship, still CMs are better imho since you can use ALL your slots and don't have CPU/PG problems at all. Also it is completly IMPOSSIBLE to have several Torps/CM volleys hit a target at same time. My torps move faster than ANY MWDING BS actually could and with a rof of ~7s a torp will already have travelled 20km while you just made >10km. You can never have more dps on a missle boat than on a gunboat these days, but of course you can have EW/DPS or Tank/DPS the same time plus actually HIT small targets (though a torp does only minor damage on a frig). Fitting a ridicoulos amount of webs and painters will gimp any setup...
Andrew Redburn Caldari adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 14:54:00 - [36] Originally by: Kunming - There is no EW system that neutralizes ships with missile launchers Jamming will stop any torp ship...and being unable to lock due to dampeners will as well. Just having no tracking disruptor for missles does not mean there is no EW at all.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 15:39:00 - [37] Originally by: Andrew Redburn Edited by: Andrew Redburn on 17/10/2006 14:54:52 I don't know what skills you all have, but I got BS lv5, all Dmg related Missle skills to 5, Cruise Spec 5 and all other missle skills to 4 or 5 (>10M in total just missles). MY Raven with 6 CM II and 3 BCU IIs does 450DPS to a BS (Megathron, hull) with T1 missles. With Torps best I get is around 630DPS on another BS (Megathron, hull, no idea if it was any T1 or T2 ammo), granted this is slightly more than CMS, but already on a cruiser my CMs are better. Torps Tech II actually don't do more damage on a BS, but of course on a smaller ship, still CMs are better imho since you can use ALL your slots and don't have CPU/PG problems at all. Also it is completly IMPOSSIBLE to have several Torps/CM volleys hit a target at same time. My torps move faster than ANY MWDING BS actually could and with a rof of ~7s a torp will already have travelled 20km while you just made >10km. You can never have more dps on a missle boat than on a gunboat these days, but of course you can have EW/DPS or Tank/DPS the same time plus actually HIT small targets (though a torp does only minor damage on a frig). Fitting a ridicoulos amount of webs and painters will gimp any setup... Well ... almost instantly, to satisfy you. I manage to get 4 volleys into bs at less than 11.25s which will effectively break armor tank. Fact that you can make that exclusively explosive is just bonus. And huh i will have 688dps on t2 torpraven, as i stated before, mega with electrons and 1 dmg mod does < 700dps with guns(and that's biggest gun you can fit with worthy tank, those dual t2 reps make baby jesus cry). Also every long range bs does less, apart from geddon (usage of missiles in fleet is still sort of questionable, you need to shoot secondary:P if there is more than 5 bs that know what primary is ) Plus you are all forgetting about effetive dps. Omg blasterthron does 1400dps ... right when you get in range, slow down, ... it takes like 20s unless it's undock figth or land straight ontop of target (which does not happen apart vs nub) Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Robet Katrix Beagle Corp R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.17 15:52:00 - [38] Alright, here is the scoop. plain and simple. Missiles hit everything (provided it doesn't MWD away @ 4k+) In turn missiles do ** dmg in a moderate array of situations. T2 torps(read JAVELINS) do as stated, about 600dps give or take. because with my skills i can get nowhere near that im going to assume there are at least 2 bcs's involved. maybe 3. Since 4 is rare and nearly impossible to fit. now 600dps isn't bad, but when you realize that a gank thorax can do about the same dps, its kind of saddening. because at peak a raven will get 800 dps with drones included. please do not tell me how much dmg rage torpedos get. Rage torpedos are the tiest peices of ** in this game. 4 TP's for them to hit strong. 4!!! unless you have a huginnin wingmate, i cant see any reason to have that many TP's around. and if you have a huginnin why not just a good setup gank cruiser? In the last three or four months i have not found a single time in which i could use rage torpedos save one carrier attack. rage also go slow as ass, so dont forget that the time to hit, is MONSTROUS. as welsh said before. normal caldari, missile users look at thee threads and cry. i wish rather than investing millions and millions in missile sp i would have got a t2 large turret. i would in a heartbeat trade my missiles for a turret spec. just because it LOOKS easy does not mean it is.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 15:53:00 - [39] now now... do you realize that rail thorax has range of almighty 60km with t2 ammo... crow can achieve that. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:25:00 - [40] I could live with missiles having half the damage of any turret if turrets had half the range of the missiles, and if you could warp in at greater distance from things. PVE aside, that would make fleet combat with missiles viable---you'd warp to the battle out of range of all the turret ships, and just start lobbing missiles into the fray. You wouldn't do much damage, but you wouldn't take any from anything other than the OTHER side's missile ships either, unless the turret ships wanted to close about 125km to you first. But, the pirates whine for their 250km sniper setups and get given them, so missiles (and especially Ravens) remain the "one trick pony"...good for level 4 missions and not much else. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:28:00 - [41] Originally by: welsh wizard Theres lots of arguments posed against Missiles that use completely unrealistic variables and situations that any missile user will tell you very rarely happen in combat. QFT. EVE is not a spreadsheet. For every situation where you can show good Torp damage, someone else can show you one where it sucks. And no-one ever, ever, EVER adds the line "+5% ROF for my missile implants, but +10% ROF and +5% damage for my TURRET implants". Yes, you really can fit all three turret implants at once.(or certainly two...been a while since I checked). Missile users don't even GET a damage implant --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:30:00 - [42] Originally by: Grey Area I could live with missiles having half the damage of any turret if turrets had half the range of the missiles, and if you could warp in at greater distance from things. You can warp at any desirable range, all you need is cloaker alt. This was uber argument in raven vs thron threads of old. You have 10 times range of turrets that do 33% more damage. You have more damage than long range guns(apart from geddon) Quote: But, the pirates whine for their 250km sniper setups and get given them, so missiles (and especially Ravens) remain the "one trick pony"...good for level 4 missions and not much else. This coming from a guy telling me in crystal thread about pvp... raven is solid ship in pvp. In fleets, there are better ships, for instance scorp which is caldari. Plus you are getting rokh soon. When you bring out argument about missiles and delayed damage, i'll start whining about heavy drones and delayed damage, just for sake of it. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:31:00 - [43] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: welsh wizard Theres lots of arguments posed against Missiles that use completely unrealistic variables and situations that any missile user will tell you very rarely happen in combat. QFT. EVE is not a spreadsheet. For every situation where you can show good Torp damage, someone else can show you one where it sucks. And no-one ever, ever, EVER adds the line "+5% ROF for my missile implants, but +10% ROF and +5% damage for my TURRET implants". Yes, you really can fit all three turret implants at once.(or certainly two...been a while since I checked). Missile users don't even GET a damage implant But please, show me 10% rof implants and 5% dmg implants for big guns. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:37:00 - [44] 688 dps from T1 torpedos is very nice when you consider the tank that can be used at the same time. The only way a Blasterthron will win against such a Raven is using Void L (if you use AM you will die before breaking the Raven's tank), and with equally skilled pilots it's still very close - i.e. 'hanging on with a bit of structure left' close. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:43:00 - [45] Originally by: Gabriel Karade 688 dps from T1 torpedos is very nice when you consider the tank that can be used at the same time. The only way a Blasterthron will win against such a Raven is using Void L (if you use AM you will die before breaking the Raven's tank), and with equally skilled pilots it's still very close - i.e. 'hanging on with a bit of structure left' close. Thron in tank mode needs really good dmg mod + 2 dmg implants to do such damage with void. This is before drones, then it's 5 heavys vs 5 meds, but range on raven can makes up for that difference easy.
Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:45:00 - [46] Originally by: welsh wizard Understand that when you ask for a Javelin nerf Caldari pilots see it as a request to trash the one area our battleship excels in. The Raven is the top mission runner, top ncper, and highly effective in small gangs. For the sake of argument, I'll say it sucks solo (but I find that highly debateable). There's little debate about the Raven's lack of abilities in long-range fleet combat. We'll also say that it's not a good miner, just for the sake of completeness. So you excel in many areas, suck in at most three, one of which few other battleships are very good in, anyway. And you can do it with less than 5mil total skill points, where every other battleship needs 10-20mil, at least. You can't have a ship that excels in everything, and no ship in Eve does.
starship enginer	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:46:00 - [47] so LUKEC any good solo raven setups with torps? inc a mwd if possible
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:50:00 - [48] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: welsh wizard Theres lots of arguments posed against Missiles that use completely unrealistic variables and situations that any missile user will tell you very rarely happen in combat. QFT. EVE is not a spreadsheet. For every situation where you can show good Torp damage, someone else can show you one where it sucks. And no-one ever, ever, EVER adds the line "+5% ROF for my missile implants, but +10% ROF and +5% damage for my TURRET implants". Yes, you really can fit all three turret implants at once.(or certainly two...been a while since I checked). Missile users don't even GET a damage implant But please, show me 10% rof implants and 5% dmg implants for big guns. As far as I recall, you can fit 2 damage implants for turrets at once (one for ROF, one for damage), and only one for missiles (for ROF). That gives turrets an amazing... 5% DPS if they can be arsed to PvP with about 400mil (?) of implants in their heads. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:57:00 - [49] Originally by: starship enginer so LUKEC any good solo raven setups with torps? inc a mwd if possible Just forget about shield tank and you have one.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 17:00:00 - [50] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: welsh wizard Theres lots of arguments posed against Missiles that use completely unrealistic variables and situations that any missile user will tell you very rarely happen in combat. QFT. EVE is not a spreadsheet. For every situation where you can show good Torp damage, someone else can show you one where it sucks. And no-one ever, ever, EVER adds the line "+5% ROF for my missile implants, but +10% ROF and +5% damage for my TURRET implants". Yes, you really can fit all three turret implants at once.(or certainly two...been a while since I checked). Missile users don't even GET a damage implant But please, show me 10% rof implants and 5% dmg implants for big guns. As far as I recall, you can fit 2 damage implants for turrets at once (one for ROF, one for damage), and only one for missiles (for ROF). That gives turrets an amazing... 5% DPS if they can be arsed to PvP with about 400mil (?) of implants in their heads. Yes you can, sadly there are only 3% implant for large guns(rof and dmg mod for all guns are both slot 9, while small guns are 6, med 8, large 10). Plus slot 10 is used by mindlinks, cpu implants(slot 6 for missiles), armor hp implants(slot 7 or 8 for shields), so it's either 3% more dmg or something far more useful.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:10:00 - [51] Originally by: Frezik Originally by: welsh wizard Understand that when you ask for a Javelin nerf Caldari pilots see it as a request to trash the one area our battleship excels in. The Raven is the top mission runner, top ncper, and highly effective in small gangs. For the sake of argument, I'll say it sucks solo (but I find that highly debateable). There's little debate about the Raven's lack of abilities in long-range fleet combat. We'll also say that it's not a good miner, just for the sake of completeness. So you excel in many areas, suck in at most three, one of which few other battleships are very good in, anyway. And you can do it with less than 5mil total skill points, where every other battleship needs 10-20mil, at least. You can't have a ship that excels in everything, and no ship in Eve does. I don't give two fiddles abouts its ability to blow up npc's. We're talking about a Javelin nerf and therefore a player versus player nerf. As for the 5million skill point thing, for npc'ing maybe, for pvp? Not a chance, a Raven is cannon fodder in a noobs hands. Understand how bad missiles are without at least 3mil skill points in missiles alone. Don't take my word for it, try it. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Muad 'dib Caldari Smoking Hillbillys	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:27:00 - [52] Navy raven with 3x dread ballistic and one T2 did 1250 dmg per torp (rages) at 7.5(cant remeber the exact) sec fire rate, on a POS on the test server
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:37:00 - [53] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: starship enginer so LUKEC any good solo raven setups with torps? inc a mwd if possible Just forget about shield tank and you have one. Just forget about any tank. And to have reasonable fit(at least one nosferatu to not being easy prey for first inter you will meet) you have to put RCU t2 and PDS t2.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:38:00 - [54] Originally by: LUKEC alts. I gave up on blasters when i realized that it takes setup to kill 5-10ppl at once to get them to figth you. After that, i stick with raven for solo purposes. Would you be so kind to share with us your setup?
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:38:00 - [55] Originally by: JustBlaze 6 t2 torp launchers with furys + painters = dead everyone! ^^ There is no fury torp.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:44:00 - [56] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: LUKEC alts. I gave up on blasters when i realized that it takes setup to kill 5-10ppl at once to get them to figth you. After that, i stick with raven for solo purposes. Would you be so kind to share with us your setup? No. Plus you don't need heavy nosf.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:46:00 - [57] Originally by: LUKEC Would you be so kind to share with us your setup? No. Bingo! There is no reasonable solo PvP setup for Raven in Eve. Quote: Plus you don't need heavy nosf. And interceptor will trash you.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:50:00 - [58] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: LUKEC Would you be so kind to share with us your setup? No. Bingo! There is no reasonable solo PvP setup for Raven in Eve. Quote: Plus you don't need heavy nosf. And interceptor will trash you. Have you ever looked at interceptor's lock range or sensor strength? + you get tinfoil hat for non existance... And grow some ballz and post with your main.
korrey Taurus Inc	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:54:00 - [59] I dont normally step in to these kind of conversations, but 688 DPS on a Raven seems overpowered. Think, a geddon gets about 800 DPS or more but thats sacrificing any sort of tank...Id rather have Ravens uber tank AND 688 DPS then 1,000 and no tank.
Xasz Unemployment Office	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:07:00 - [60] ...lol. Let's take 10 seconds and look at the OP. This thread has turned into 1 giant flame war (as most missile/raven/caldari threads do). Perhaps we could stay on topic, and take the flame war elsewhere? Unemployment Office [NOJOB], now firing. Contact Xasz or Jaguar Warrior for details.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:11:00 - [61] Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 19:11:26 Originally by: Xasz ...lol. Let's take 10 seconds and look at the OP. This thread has turned into 1 giant flame war (as most missile/raven/caldari threads do). Perhaps we could stay on topic, and take the flame war elsewhere? Well he got answered... best raven dps with t2 mods is 688+drones. You won't tank much with that setup, because it has 4 bcus, but it's possible to fit very good setup with 3 bcus and you lose like 30dps (651dps+drones+2 hi slots to play with cruiser size guns/med neuts... ) Now let's continue throwing molotov coctails.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:15:00 - [62] Originally by: LUKEC Have you ever looked at interceptor's lock range or sensor strength? Yes.
JoCool Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:16:00 - [63] Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp Only t2 stuff, that's t1/javelin torps. Add drones, number of launchers as you like. For painters+rages, it's 50% more. I have maximised everything and t2 stuff. thats not possible, not even with 5 bcu IIs. I'd say 99,9% of your alliance would know better than you. _______________________________________________________________________ Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:18:00 - [64] Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 19:19:12 Originally by: JoCool Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp Only t2 stuff, that's t1/javelin torps. Add drones, number of launchers as you like. For painters+rages, it's 50% more. I have maximised everything and t2 stuff. thats not possible, not even with 5 bcu IIs. I'd say 99,9% of your alliance would know better than you. 5% rof implant, ofcourse. I have 7.2 s rof and torps hit for 782dmg on hull with 3 t2 bcus. Now calculate as you wish.
JoCool Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:36:00 - [65] Edited by: JoCool on 17/10/2006 19:43:41 You said 6.97 seconds and now corrected yourself. I do have the 5% rof implant too, and also a rof of 7.20 shots per second. Addendum: The 50% more damage for rages part is not really true though. Note that these calculations are for Rage torpedos, anti structure and anti capital weapons who require a signature radius of 1000m to achieve full damage output. Also you must assume that the target in this calculation sits still and does not move more than 100m/s. 3 TP II, no stacking nerf yet, on an enemy raven, second largest tier2 bs signature, which then has 882 sig, 1035,7 raw damage per shot, 863,1 raw dps. With close to no defense, immobility and a very short operational range - if you want more than a single volley of torps to hit before the gang's target is dead. Note this is for Rage Torps - no range, no speed on the missile, no cap recharge for yourself. _______________________________________________________________________ Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:37:00 - [66] Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp With absolutely maxed stats, yes? And 300kk implant? Sacrificed tank, yes? We have 688 dps. Not a much at all.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:48:00 - [67] Originally by: JoCool Edited by: JoCool on 17/10/2006 19:41:02 You said 6.97 seconds and now corrected yourself. I do have the 5% rof implant too, and also a rof of 7.20 shots per second. Addendum: The 50% more damage for rages part is not really true though. 3 TP II on a raven, second largest t2 bs signature, which then has 882 sig, 1035,7 raw damage per shot, 863,1 raw dps. With close to no defense, immobility and a very short operational range - if you want more than a single volley of torps to hit before the gang's target is dead. You have torp spec 5 and you get 7.2 rof with how many dmg mods? About rages... 50% more vs target of right size. I admit i usually don't bother carrying them around, but i've seen them in action vs carrier and they are useful, sometimes. And i think huginn does the trick on most bs.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:49:00 - [68] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp With absolutely maxed stats, yes? And 300kk implant? Sacrificed tank, yes? We have 688 dps. Not a much at all. I wonder how much dps farjung's vindicator was doing without drones and antimatter ? Or void ...
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:55:00 - [69] My caldari alt has currently 8.3 mill skillpoints all specced in t2 torp-raven. I use it with ECM or with a nice 11% more effective shield tank than double t2 armor tank. Will never use a geddon again, these goddamn javelin torps ... OMG <3
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.17 20:00:00 - [70] Originally by: Tassi My caldari alt has currently 8.3 mill skillpoints all specced in t2 torp-raven. I use it with ECM or with a nice 11% more effective shield tank than double t2 armor tank. Will never use a geddon again, these goddamn javelin torps ... OMG <3 Would you be so kind to post your setup? I wonder... Such great setups! Deadly dps! Uber tanks! ECM! No post yet!
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.17 20:04:00 - [71] Edited by: Tassi on 17/10/2006 20:04:37 highs: 6xt2 torp, 2x medium energy neut mids: 1x 20km scram, sensor booster, 4x ECM multi spec t2 lows: 1x stab, 3x bcu t2, 1x medium armor rep you should drop the stab and put a plate on. EDIT: not gonna tell you the shieldtanked one, well gimme 10 mill and I will mail you.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.17 20:05:00 - [72] quoted from another thread: ---------------------------------------------- I flew Cadari exclusivly for ages and almost never used the railgun ships. All was great till I had to fight in fleet battles Vs. RA which are arch snipers. ---------------------------------------------- Read and remember, whiners. Above mentioned tactic killed Raven as fleet ship. And, dear Caldari, forget about missiles. Switch asap on rails...
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.17 20:09:00 - [73] Originally by: Tassi Edited by: Tassi on 17/10/2006 20:04:37 highs: 6xt2 torp, 2x medium energy neut mids: 1x 20km scram, sensor booster, 4x ECM multi spec t2 lows: 1x stab, 3x bcu t2, 1x medium armor rep you should drop the stab and put a plate on. Good setup. I am using very similar(with plate). Adviced to me by my good friend half year ago. But it has no tanking ability at all. And usually I need an MWD :(.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 20:15:00 - [74] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Tassi Edited by: Tassi on 17/10/2006 20:04:37 highs: 6xt2 torp, 2x medium energy neut mids: 1x 20km scram, sensor booster, 4x ECM multi spec t2 lows: 1x stab, 3x bcu t2, 1x medium armor rep you should drop the stab and put a plate on. Good setup. I am using very similar(with plate). Adviced to me by my good friend half year ago. But it has no tanking ability at all. And usually I need an MWD :(. Drop scram and fit mwd, you need hypnos multis though. I agree, missiles have issues in fleets, but you have scorp :P
Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.17 20:24:00 - [75] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Frezik Originally by: welsh wizard Understand that when you ask for a Javelin nerf Caldari pilots see it as a request to trash the one area our battleship excels in. The Raven is the top mission runner, top ncper, and highly effective in small gangs. For the sake of argument, I'll say it sucks solo (but I find that highly debateable). There's little debate about the Raven's lack of abilities in long-range fleet combat. We'll also say that it's not a good miner, just for the sake of completeness. So you excel in many areas, suck in at most three, one of which few other battleships are very good in, anyway. And you can do it with less than 5mil total skill points, where every other battleship needs 10-20mil, at least. You can't have a ship that excels in everything, and no ship in Eve does. I don't give two fiddles abouts its ability to blow up npc's. We're talking about a Javelin nerf and therefore a player versus player nerf. All areas that the Raven is good/bad in should be considered. Focusing on a single area gets you idiotic balance. Quote: As for the 5million skill point thing, for npc'ing maybe, for pvp? Not a chance, a Raven is cannon fodder in a noobs hands. Understand how bad missiles are without at least 3mil skill points in missiles alone. Don't take my word for it, try it. I'm running EveMon off a fresh character, and gave her the following skills (and prereqs): Caldari BS II Torpedos I Electronics V Electronic Upgrades I Engineering IV Energy Grid Upgrades II Shield Management I Tactical Shield Manipulation I Shield Operation I Propultion Jamming I Energy Emission Systems III Missile Launcher Operation IV Missile Bombardment IV Rapid Launch IV Target Navigation Prediction IV Warhead Upgrades IV Comes in at about 1.5mil skill points. Getting all the base missile skills (Bombardment, operation, projection, rapid launch, nav prediction, and upgrades) to level V puts it at just under 4.9 mil points, but I hardly think that's necessary to be effective. All that plus Torp V and Torp Specilization I put us over, at ~5.9mil points. If you want cruises instead of torps, add in Guided Precition (+300k points for lvl4, 1.3 for lvl5) and cruise skill itself (for t2, another 1.3mil points). Here again, I don't think t2 is necessary to be effective--just to make you be able to handle more situations. Overall, we're looking at less than 2 mil points to be effective in missions, npcing, and small gangs. For just under 5mil, you can get all the base skills you need for torps to lvl5. For under 9mil, you can throw t2 torps, t2 cruises, and guided missile precision V on top of that. Running a QuickFit, this is enough to run this setup: 6xSiege Missile Launcher I 2xMedium Nosferatu I Medium Nosferatu I XLarge C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Shield Boost Amplifier I Photon Scattering Field I 3xInvulnerability Field I 2xPower Diagnostic System I 2xCo-Processor I Ballistic Control System I This can be further improved with more skills or some named items, of course, but it's certianly more effective than any other battleship with such low skill points. In solo work, you'll have problems keeping the enemy around, but this is plenty effective enough for small gangs. It's uber for any PvE work (with minor changes to the hardners)--even faction BS have trouble matching it there. So arguments for the Raven go: * Uncontested best in PvE * Minor skillpoints needed for effectiveness in small gangs * Becomes uber at skill point levels where most BS are getting a running start * Formerly on par with turrents in ability to take down frigs, but fixed with t2 missiles Arguments against: * Useless in long-range fleet warefare * Sucks when solo (remember, I'm just giving this one to you) * Sucks for mining (whooptie-do) Compared to its advantages, why can't Caldari live with those minor and often debatable list of problems?
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.17 20:25:00 - [76] Originally by: LUKEC Drop scram and fit mwd, you need hypnos multis though. I agree, missiles have issues in fleets, but you have scorp :P Cannot fit plate(afair, not enough PG). Scorp is good ship, but it is about ECM, not missile. In modern Eve war there is no place for missile in the fleet battle. At all. May be in the future something will be changed. But currently I see no chance to missile BS in the fight against well-organized turret BS gang.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.17 20:34:00 - [77] Originally by: Frezik So arguments for the Raven go: * Uncontested best in PvE * Minor skillpoints needed for effectiveness in small gangs * Becomes uber at skill point levels where most BS are getting a running start * Formerly on par with turrents in ability to take down frigs, but fixed with t2 missiles Arguments against: * Useless in long-range fleet warefare * Sucks when solo (remember, I'm just giving this one to you) * Sucks for mining (whooptie-do) Compared to its advantages, why can't Caldari live with those minor and often debatable list of problems? You are right less or more. Few clarifications: pro: * easy to use(no need to care about tracking) against: * Useless in any fleet warfare * No sniping setup So, not bad yes? And let's naughty boy calculate for us dps...) Problem that if you wish to feel the life you will move to 0.0. Yes? Yes. To live in 0.0 you have to fight with your mates and kill enemy en-masse. Yes? Yes. But Raven is not suitable for this task. You with your Raven is ballast in the fleet. Just another one BS which will be added to statistic by your enemy after battle.
Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.17 20:46:00 - [78] Originally by: Zixxa But Raven is not suitable for this task. You with your Raven is ballast in the fleet. Just another one BS which will be added to statistic by your enemy after battle. Not every 0.0 battle is a big fleet battle. In fact, I daresay they're not even the vast majority of the battles. If you are really stuck on using the Raven and only the Raven, there's lots of fun to be had in small gang 0.0 fights. I'm sick of Caldari complaining that the Raven is no good for long-range fleet warefare, for the same reasons that I don't think we need to buff hammers just because it's the wrong tool for cutting a board. If you want a fleet BS, train a few ECM skills and get in a Scorp. Or (gasp) train some gunnery skills and wait for the Caldari's new railboat.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.17 20:51:00 - [79] You know the whole 'turrents' thing just isnt funny anymore ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.17 21:39:00 - [80] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Jim McGregor Yeah, missile damage sucks. Oh yes. The highest damage output of this deadly raven with 6 torp launchers and maxed skills being... 688. Wow. Not to mention that 3/8 battleship's sigs are too small to be affected fully. Oh, and anyone with an afterburner or microwarp on their battleship will see a pretty good damage reduction (if not using javelins). Except for the part where Javelins were stipulated by the only person posting their figure here. Yeah, 688 DPS at any range from 0 to 250km with completely selectable damage types is terrible. After all that's only the same ballpark as a Barrage-'pest, Electron-'thron or what have you. Oh man, so bad. Needs improvement ASAP
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2006.10.17 22:46:00 - [81] From what I have read and understand. Unless you fully fit your Raven with Officer Gear (launchers, Shields, BCU...) and spend over 1.5 billion ISK. You will never have a Raven that can solo on it's own effectivly. Thats makes me cry . ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild!
Slender Brenda Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 22:55:00 - [82] Originally by: Majin82 From what I have read and understand. Unless you fully fit your Raven with Officer Gear (launchers, Shields, BCU...) and spend over 1.5 billion ISK. You will never have a Raven that can solo on it's own effectivly. Thats makes me cry .
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2006.10.17 23:05:00 - [83] I see your and raise you a ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild!
westernstab	Posted - 2006.10.17 23:17:00 - [84] Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 17/10/2006 12:19:49 ôLook here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any...ö It that very old? All I know is my Eos without a drone damage bonus kills over twice as fast as all my friends in Ravens, I use drones alone nothing else. I am normally half way though my target before my friends kill their first rat. We often pick 750k battleships and start firing at the same time and even with 50km travel time for drones I kill way faster. When I take my domi with lvl 5 BS for a large drone damage boost I kill even faster. So that means a raven has a higher DPS agaist large objects. Is that not balanced one ship is better agaist POS's and cap ships. another race is better agaist same size ships and yet another race is good agaist smaller ships. (ever see a temptest 1 volley a cruiser) not saying it is a perfect balance but comeing here complaing about you cant fight Bs's when it appears your ship is designed to fight bigger targets is a bit short sighted.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.18 00:59:00 - [85] This argument is a crock of ** tbh. It's like head butting a wall. This is the freakin' internet, no-one is ever going to be convinced to change their opinion. "The Raven isn't overpowered!" "Yes it is!" "No it isn't!!" etc etc Sigh. Originally by:** anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Flabida jaba	Posted - 2006.10.18 01:42:00 - [86] dang nabed whiners ....... If raven's are so overpowered...why dont you just train for one......i had a new character in a torp raven in 2 months And dont responed with any lame ..."but i dont want a raven" "i want my ship to pwnd like a raven does" bullsheet! if you like your ship fly it and STFU If you want to Pwnd..get a raven or STFU personally im traning Gallente BS to 5 for a ship that can actually win 1 on 1! do massive damage to any ship class! and tank like a concrete block on steroids!
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.18 02:37:00 - [87] Originally by: Kunming Some more problems: - Missile HP was increased, defender dmg NOT - Missile speed was increased, defender speed NOT - There is no EW system that neutralizes ships with missile launchers - Missiles were given 0 cap usage so neutralizing their cap isnt an option anymore either - Defenders still kill cruise missiles and smaller in a single hit. - Defenders have 2x the speed of a light missile, base, and their skill gives 5% more speed per level, and you still get another missile skill to further boost their speed. - ECM screws a missile user just like everyone else. FOF will hit the closest hostile, and if they have drones on you, you're going to be picking at them while the others rip you apart. There's also no rocket/torpedo FOF. - Missiles aren't the only 0 cap weapon. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.18 02:41:00 - [88] Originally by: Johnny Bravo Look here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any... You mean like needing to use 5 midslots for the 4 painters and webber you need to do those DPS to a BS and only a BS? /me points out a stationary cruiser or BC is going to feel the full force of those other ships, and never of the Ragen. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.18 02:53:00 - [89] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia - Defenders still kill cruise missiles and smaller in a single hit. - Defenders have 2x the speed of a light missile, base, and their skill gives 5% more speed per level, and you still get another missile skill to further boost their speed. - ECM screws a missile user just like everyone else. FOF will hit the closest hostile, and if they have drones on you, you're going to be picking at them while the others rip you apart. There's also no rocket/torpedo FOF. - Missiles aren't the only 0 cap weapon. I can't believe someone is saying defenders are decent. They are completely useless. End of discussion. Originally by: Flabida jaba dang nabed whiners ....... If raven's are so overpowered...why dont you just train for one......i had a new character in a torp raven in 2 months And dont responed with any lame ..."but i dont want a raven" "i want my ship to pwnd like a raven does" bullsheet! if you like your ship fly it and STFU If you want to Pwnd..get a raven or STFU personally im traning Gallente BS to 5 for a ship that can actually win 1 on 1! do massive damage to any ship class! and tank like a concrete block on steroids! ** off troll. Not everyone wants every ***** battleship in game to be a raven.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.18 03:09:00 - [90] Originally by: Tasty Burger Originally by: Malthros Zenobia - Defenders still kill cruise missiles and smaller in a single hit. - Defenders have 2x the speed of a light missile, base, and their skill gives 5% more speed per level, and you still get another missile skill to further boost their speed. - ECM screws a missile user just like everyone else. FOF will hit the closest hostile, and if they have drones on you, you're going to be picking at them while the others rip you apart. There's also no rocket/torpedo FOF. - Missiles aren't the only 0 cap weapon. I can't believe someone is saying defenders are decent. They are completely useless. End of discussion. I was refuting someone's arguements, at no point did I say defenders are decent. The will kill any missile cruise size or smaller though, and some people seem to think defenders should be one size kills all, if they fix missiles, I'd hope that to NOT be the case. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Flabida jaba	Posted - 2006.10.18 05:10:00 - [91] Originally by: Tasty Burger CALDARI WHINERS SHUT UP KPLZ. I've had it with you babies defending your fire-and-forget winmobiles. Go suck a pipe and die. who are you calling troll........? and who is really whining here? QQ sound like lots of people want every ship to be a raven to me Fire-and-forget winmobiles????? Dreamer!
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.18 19:58:00 - [92] Originally by: LUKEC But please, show me 10% rof implants and 5% dmg implants for big guns. One, I never said there was a 10% ROF implant...I said there were TWO 5% ones, giving 10% total. Since you asked so nicely, here they are... Choose one of these for slot 9; Hardwiring - Inherent Implants 'Lancer' G2-Delta - (5% to all turrets rate of fire) Hardwiring - Eifyr and Co 'Gunslinger' CX-2 - (5% to all turrets damage) And then you fit whichever of these three suits your type of weapon in slot 10; Hardwiring - Eifyr and Co 'Gunslinger' LX-2 - (5% to large projectile damage) Hardwiring - Inherent Implants 'Lancer' G2-Epsilon - (5% to large energy turret damage) Hardwiring - Zainou 'Deadeye' ZGL1000 - (5% to large hybrid turret damage) So, combining slot 9 & 10 you can either have +10% to damage or +5% to ROF and +5% to damage. There are even implants for small and medium weapons extra damage that you can fit in slots 6 and 8 as well! Missile users get; Hardwiring - Zainou 'Deadeye' ZMM1000 - (5% to ROF for all missiles, slot 10). And NO damage increasing implants at all. So, as I stated, turret users have a 5% damage advantage which is surprisingly NEVER mentioned when people quote DPS. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.18 20:10:00 - [93] LUKEC...just read on to where you said the +5% implants do not exist. They do, they are just rare...but even when they come on to the market they are still much cheaper than the +5% ROF to missiles one. But that aside...even if you can't get one, you can still get an extra 3% for very little ISK... And the valuable slot 10 is also where our only missile ROF implant goes too...so no difference there.... Agreed that defenders are not a viable option for PVP...but equally if they are boosted to make themn as effective as the ones the NPC use, then you can expect an awful lot of "WTS: Raven" threads... How does the covert ops ship get to 250km from the battle so that you can warp to it? by the time it has travelled the 150km at normal speeds the battle is over... And yes currently missile damage is not 50% of turret damage...but that's because missile range is not 200% of turret range either. CCP have paid too much attention to "Waaah! Nerf It!" threads that a lot of DIFFERENCE (which is not the same as IMBALANCE, children) between ships has been lost. the poster who said we should all have the same ship with one turret, one launcher etc. was obviously being sarcastic, but that seems to be the way we are heading. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.18 20:48:00 - [94] Originally by: LUKEC This coming from a guy telling me in crystal thread about pvp... raven is solid ship in pvp. So, because I wrote in a thread about PVP, I must be talking about PVP in a Raven? Or for that matter, my own experiences rather than that of my corpmates, or the thousands of other people I talk to in EVE? You really have to do something about this massive tendency you have to assume stuff LUKEC. Originally by: LUKEC Plus you are getting rokh soon. Which relates to the price of bacon HOW exactly? I thought we were talking about MISSILES? Originally by: LUKEC You have more damage than long range guns No, we don't, not over the normal lifetime of a combat. (yes, this is the whine about delayed damge that you specifically requested. It is my pleasure to serve) --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.18 22:22:00 - [95] Originally by: Flabida jaba sound like lots of people want every ship to be a raven to me No, I want: * Missiles to be more skill-intensive * A counter module to missiles that isn't a waste of electrons in CCP's database
Devils Sin	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:16:00 - [96] Well i have read this thread beginning to end and honestly it has turned into every other thread i have ever read about a raven. Starts out some what productive and turns into "there are 2 sides of an arguement and i dont have the time to listen to yours". This is my alt if you can call it that. Its really my 2nd main. it is 100% raven spec and does nothing other then that. I read threads with the every day arguement of missiles own and honestly....i dont see it. Matter of fact the whole torp argument has me a bit confused. I use CMs almost exclusivly at this point because they leave so much room for a tank and give up very little damage. They rip on frigs far better then a torp. The advantages out weight torps in my opinion but for some reason torps seem to remain FOTM. Anyway can someone argue a point that proves missiles are the own all recipe? Without using perfect scenerios for missiles compared to worst case scenerios anything else? I agree the lack of cap use, the lack of tracking are benifits. But you have to look at the flip. If a ship is travelin at 3k-4k ms straight at a tempest what happens? Ya we all know what happens? Same ship same speed comes straight at a raven what happens? SO every arguement has a flip every scenerio has a what if. PLEASE look at the entire picture when arguing this (own mobile) arguement for 10 pages on a thread. Just so people like me can better understand because i dont see it.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:38:00 - [97] Edited by: James Lyrus on 20/10/2006 13:41:52 So basically what we're saying, is stuff in EVE, is like, different. As in, not the same. As in, doesn't perform exactly the same as some other ship in a hypothetical alternate scenario? DPS is an e-peen number, and means nothing. Facts though? Much harder. Perhaps we could get the devs to publish how many killmails are generated as '1v1' which have ravens as 'layed the killing blow'. Of course, that'd probably get skewed by the large number of mission runnners and ratters that use them, and set them up badly. I don't think anyone would argue that the raven is possibly the best PvE ship out there. Their drawbacks (tackling/ewar cuts into tank, and flight time on missiles) are fairly negligable in that environment. In PvP? Well, I don't see BS raiding all that often, but of those I do, I see dominixes, megathrons, 'geddons, tempests and typhoons. Raven's in there somewhere, but it's fairly low down the list. In a world where everyone can fly every ship, an uber ship means everyone flies it. Which is exactly what's happening with Nos/ECM/tank dominixes. Defenders do need 'adjusting' though. As it is, they're great when NPCs use 'em, and useless when it's anyone else.
HellsRazor Caldari FACTA NON VERBA	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:15:00 - [98] cruise t2 with 3 bcu t2 7.1 rof at 621 per missile max damage. heavy t2 on nighthawk 3 bcu t2 391 at 6.3 rof per heavy. cant recall my t2 torps... but painfull i think sence i have max rof and damage with skills NO implants
HellsRazor Caldari FACTA NON VERBA	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:18:00 - [99] people stop crying you get killed by a low sp missile boat.. you deserve it!! t2 mega nuetron blast must need nerf to i guess ;p
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:29:00 - [100] Edited by: LUKEC on 20/10/2006 14:31:20 Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: LUKEC But please, show me 10% rof implants and 5% dmg implants for big guns. One, I never said there was a 10% ROF implant...I said there were TWO 5% ones, giving 10% total. Since you asked so nicely, here they are... Choose one of these for slot 9; Hardwiring - Inherent Implants 'Lancer' G2-Delta - (5% to all turrets rate of fire) Hardwiring - Eifyr and Co 'Gunslinger' CX-2 - (5% to all turrets damage) And then you fit whichever of these three suits your type of weapon in slot 10; Hardwiring - Eifyr and Co 'Gunslinger' LX-2 - (5% to large projectile damage) Hardwiring - Inherent Implants 'Lancer' G2-Epsilon - (5% to large energy turret damage) Hardwiring - Zainou 'Deadeye' ZGL1000 - (5% to large hybrid turret damage) So, combining slot 9 & 10 you can either have +10% to damage or +5% to ROF and +5% to damage. There are even implants for small and medium weapons extra damage that you can fit in slots 6 and 8 as well! Missile users get; Hardwiring - Zainou 'Deadeye' ZMM1000 - (5% to ROF for all missiles, slot 10). And NO damage increasing implants at all. So, as I stated, turret users have a 5% damage advantage which is surprisingly NEVER mentioned when people quote DPS. These implants are as much in game as centXX small reps.... so continue your theoretical discussions but you are on shaky grounds here. I know well enough about these implants, but i can't buy them for any isk. + you forgot about whelan's ballistic smartlink, 5% dps implant with cybernetics III is nice indeed.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:32:00 - [101] Originally by: LUKEC you forgot about whelan's ballistic smartlink, 5% dps implant with cybernetics III is nice indeed. Must admit to having not heard of that one...anywhere I can look at the info on it - slot number in particular? I'm assuming the "ballistic" word means it's a gun implant again. And even if we accept (which I don't) that the +5% implants are not available in game, they are at least LISTED, which means CCP have given the thought to CREATING them, and, as I said, the 3% versions certainly DO exist. Where are the equivalent missile implants? --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Spiderweb Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:07:00 - [102] Originally by: Johnny Bravo Look here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any... hahahah Rage torps which only hit POS and Dreads and only on max 55 range + T2 heavy drones whih obviouSLY raven doesnt have the drone capacity for vs Normal PVP turrets graphs rofl you are so hard trying to scew opinion by false "evidence" that your idiocy strikes as hard as your inability to comprehend the most simple of details. pls quit, trash your stuff and go play Barbie thank you ----------------------------------------------- "Light, in the Darkest of Hours..."
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:03:00 - [103] Originally by: Spiderweb Originally by: Johnny Bravo Look here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any... hahahah Rage torps which only hit POS and Dreads and only on max 55 range + T2 heavy drones whih obviouSLY raven doesnt have the drone capacity for vs Normal PVP turrets graphs rofl you are so hard trying to scew opinion by false "evidence" that your idiocy strikes as hard as your inability to comprehend the most simple of details. pls quit, trash your stuff and go play Barbie thank you Raven with rage torps can't be killed by lone inty, while gunships can... all you need to do is switch ammo. Grey Area, that implant is modified zmms1000 or whatever missile rof implant is, basicly cosmos implant for slot 10 that doesn't need cybernetics 5. Listed mods don't help, btw. CoreXX small reps in database don't help me in any way.
dec0 Caldari Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:57:00 - [104] Edited by: dec0 on 20/10/2006 20:00:06 I really fking hate all of you. I really do. You see some raven kill something, you read stats on javelins and OMFGBBQ ITS OVERPOWERED NERF IT. The raven is no better than any other battleship for pvp. Have you any idea how hard it is to fit 6 t2 seige plus a good tank? And you have no nos which means you can be tackled easily. Armour tanking does work kinda with a raven, but then you've got a weak tank and no damage mods. Plus you usually need fitting mods for t2 seige. You need loads of missile, engineering and fitting skills to make it good. Yes, if you fit 5 target painters and a webber you can actually hit reeeeallly good damage on a bs, but that has to be the worst setup ever, what idiot would use it. This is a game, nothing ever happens how you want it to, all these scenarios where the raven can own etc...hardly ever happen. Yes, t2 javelins are good, and as soon as us caldari get something good ppol want to nerf it. Its fking bullsh!t im sick of ppol who dont have a clue what they're talking about chatting sh!t because they got killed by a raven or they see them in empire everywhere. /end whine
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 22:26:00 - [105] Originally by: LUKEC Grey Area, that implant is modified zmms1000 or whatever missile rof implant is, basicly cosmos implant for slot 10 that doesn't need cybernetics 5. Listed mods don't help, btw. CoreXX small reps in database don't help me in any way. I tell you what LUKEC...I'd be PERFECTLY happy for CCP to LIST a damage modifying implant for missiles even if they don't put it in the game yet. It just seems like missiles got overlooked (again) when it came to the hardwirings. Don't forget that for about six months there were NO missile hardwiring implants AT ALL. It was only because I and others screamed for them that we got them. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 22:48:00 - [106] Edited by: LUKEC on 20/10/2006 22:52:22 Originally by: dec0 Edited by: dec0 on 20/10/2006 20:00:06 I really fking hate all of you. I really do. You see some raven kill something, you read stats on javelins and OMFGBBQ ITS OVERPOWERED NERF IT. The raven is no better than any other battleship for pvp. Have you any idea how hard it is to fit 6 t2 seige plus a good tank? And you have no nos which means you can be tackled easily. Armour tanking does work kinda with a raven, but then you've got a weak tank and no damage mods. Plus you usually need fitting mods for t2 seige. You need loads of missile, engineering and fitting skills to make it good. Yes, if you fit 5 target painters and a webber you can actually hit reeeeallly good damage on a bs, but that has to be the worst setup ever, what idiot would use it. This is a game, nothing ever happens how you want it to, all these scenarios where the raven can own etc...hardly ever happen. Yes, t2 javelins are good, and as soon as us caldari get something good ppol want to nerf it. Its fking bullsh!t im sick of ppol who dont have a clue what they're talking about chatting sh!t because they got killed by a raven or they see them in empire everywhere. /end whine Dunno, i manage to tank raven just fine. Injector, t2 xl booster(or better)... All it takes is nice little DG cpu. And huh.. i had to use faction platings on mega for 2 years to fit anything.Fitting raven compared to that is childish play. And tanking raven is not so good idea, anyway. Grey area, there are no implants or even dmg mods for drones as well (those could be hi slot :P )
Johnny Bravo Gallente Draconis Navitas Aeterna Pure.	Posted - 2006.10.20 22:49:00 - [107] Originally by: Spiderweb Originally by: Johnny Bravo Look here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any... hahahah Rage torps which only hit POS and Dreads and only on max 55 range + T2 heavy drones whih obviouSLY raven doesnt have the drone capacity for vs Normal PVP turrets graphs rofl you are so hard trying to scew opinion by false "evidence" that your idiocy strikes as hard as your inability to comprehend the most simple of details. pls quit, trash your stuff and go play Barbie thank you Only such (i will not say who to be not banned) as you can manage to post such stupid messages. 1. Raven have space for exactly 3 heavy drones. Other ships can hold just as much or more, its all counted. 2. Turret ships have much, much lesser range than even "55km super-short-range Rage torps" 3. Everyone can test it on SiSi - Raven with 3TP and Rage torps against Megathron or Tempest. No ECM. Fight starts at 15KM. Megathron or Tempest will have exactly zero chances to win. Fight starts at 0km - Megathron and Tempest have nearly zero chances to win. Fight starts at 5km - Megathron and Tempest have only small chances to win. Thats how Raven DPS "sucks". Next time better reread message at least 10 times and think at least a hour before posting. Allthought, you brain might need more training before going public without a shame...
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.21 09:48:00 - [108] Originally by: Johnny Bravo Originally by: Spiderweb Originally by: Johnny Bravo Look here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any... hahahah Rage torps which only hit POS and Dreads and only on max 55 range + T2 heavy drones whih obviouSLY raven doesnt have the drone capacity for vs Normal PVP turrets graphs rofl you are so hard trying to scew opinion by false "evidence" that your idiocy strikes as hard as your inability to comprehend the most simple of details. pls quit, trash your stuff and go play Barbie thank you Only such (i will not say who to be not banned) as you can manage to post such stupid messages. 1. Raven have space for exactly 3 heavy drones. Other ships can hold just as much or more, its all counted. 2. Turret ships have much, much lesser range than even "55km super-short-range Rage torps" 3. Everyone can test it on SiSi - Raven with 3TP and Rage torps against Megathron or Tempest. No ECM. Fight starts at 15KM. Megathron or Tempest will have exactly zero chances to win. Fight starts at 0km - Megathron and Tempest have nearly zero chances to win. Fight starts at 5km - Megathron and Tempest have only small chances to win. Thats how Raven DPS "sucks". Your experience sucks. Use MWD on Thron/Pest and kill tankless Rage Raven with comfort. Do you know what is the MWD. Very funny device, but, not for carebears like you.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.21 09:53:00 - [109] Originally by: Tasty Burger Originally by: Malthros Zenobia - Defenders still kill cruise missiles and smaller in a single hit. - Defenders have 2x the speed of a light missile, base, and their skill gives 5% more speed per level, and you still get another missile skill to further boost their speed. - ECM screws a missile user just like everyone else. FOF will hit the closest hostile, and if they have drones on you, you're going to be picking at them while the others rip you apart. There's also no rocket/torpedo FOF. - Missiles aren't the only 0 cap weapon. I can't believe someone is saying defenders are decent. They are completely useless. End of discussion. Originally by: Flabida jaba dang nabed whiners ....... If raven's are so overpowered...why dont you just train for one......i had a new character in a torp raven in 2 months And dont responed with any lame ..."but i dont want a raven" "i want my ship to pwnd like a raven does" bullsheet! if you like your ship fly it and STFU If you want to Pwnd..get a raven or STFU personally im traning Gallente BS to 5 for a ship that can actually win 1 on 1! do massive damage to any ship class! and tank like a concrete block on steroids! ** off troll. Not everyone wants every *** battleship in game to be a raven. Don't be a moaning *. Originally by:** anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Verus Potestas Caldari The I-Win Button	Posted - 2006.10.21 09:58:00 - [110] Originally by: Tasty Burger Its worth noting that a raven with torps outdamages an autocannon tempest. That's a straight-up lie. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.21 10:07:00 - [111] Originally by: LUKEC Raven with rage torps can't be killed by lone inty, while gunships can... all you need to do is switch ammo. Lie. Javelin do not help much against inty. Speed and size make him invulnerable to torps. But raven will die - no heavy nosfs.
Tarty	Posted - 2006.10.21 11:20:00 - [112] You all talk alot of poo poo in here To me it looks like most of you know nothing about flying a raven Good luck flying a raven peeps
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 14:09:00 - [113] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: LUKEC Raven with rage torps can't be killed by lone inty, while gunships can... all you need to do is switch ammo. Lie. Javelin do not help much against inty. Speed and size make him invulnerable to torps. But raven will die - no heavy nosfs. Why would it die? Try guns and come back. Intys are invulnerable at 17km orbit, but with guns, everything smaller than bs is invulnerable up to 60km.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.21 15:46:00 - [114] Originally by: LUKEC Why would it die? Try guns and come back. Intys are invulnerable at 17km orbit, but with guns, everything smaller than bs is invulnerable up to 60km. My Apoc must have the Magical Ring Of UberTracking then. I can hit frigates and inty's down to 30km with ease. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 17:46:00 - [115] Edited by: LUKEC on 21/10/2006 17:47:17 Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: LUKEC Why would it die? Try guns and come back. Intys are invulnerable at 17km orbit, but with guns, everything smaller than bs is invulnerable up to 60km. My Apoc must have the Magical Ring Of UberTracking then. I can hit frigates and inty's down to 30km with ease. I can do it, too. It's called magic ring of huggins... You won't hit inty with transversal speed at 200km and at 20km, eagles have problems tracking them. Watch this to see what's difference between raven and tempest(who used magic trick but he forgot to use it b4 uncloaking ): tracking lessons Just to add, if that would be caracal/raven instead of eagle, tempest would survive.
Ryoka Infinite Opportunities Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.21 18:19:00 - [116] wow, jet another omg the raven is uber thread.... jesus **in.... every mega fitted by anyone with an iq over 80, which apparently is less than half of eves population, will RAVAGE a raven... pretty much every turret ship will... Rage missiles, rofl.... has any of you **in whiners ever used them? they plain suck...and they suck bad... and even if you strap on 20 target painters and 50 webs, a mega or an arma will outdamage you BAD, and will in contraire to a raven be able to mount a tank/EW (dont ask me about pest since i dont fly trash cans... :P) so figure by yourself how great rage missiles are... on the issue of no tracking... How retarded do you have to be to be killed by a single interceptor because you couldnt track it?! (dont get me wrong, my tara killed several bs's, but they were retards...), but even disregarding the tracking, hmm, lets think real hard here, what kind of bay does every bs have? And what lives in that bay that can kill every single inti without any trouble? if you dont know, start playing wow or something, it has pretty colors and you dont have to think (much)... And in general for killing small targets id choose turrets over missiles every single time, because though they suffer from tracking issues, they dont suffer a damage loss... the raven is the undispuded ship for npcing on easy mode, however you can even npc in an arma way more effective if you know how... in pvp? rofl if you think a raven is a better ship to pvp with than lets say a domi, mega, arma, phoon or pest (apoc sucks indeed...) then please, by all means, state your name and ill keep an eye open for you... grrr, too bad people dont have to take like a test or something before posting on the forums...
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 18:43:00 - [117] Originally by: Ryoka wow, jet another omg the raven is uber thread.... jesus **in.... every mega fitted by anyone with an iq over 80, which apparently is less than half of eves population, will RAVAGE a raven... pretty much every turret ship will... Rage missiles, rofl.... has any of you **in whiners ever used them? they plain suck...and they suck bad... and even if you strap on 20 target painters and 50 webs, a mega or an arma will outdamage you BAD, and will in contraire to a raven be able to mount a tank/EW (dont ask me about pest since i dont fly trash cans... :P) so figure by yourself how great rage missiles are... on the issue of no tracking... How retarded do you have to be to be killed by a single interceptor because you couldnt track it?! (dont get me wrong, my tara killed several bs's, but they were retards...), but even disregarding the tracking, hmm, lets think real hard here, what kind of bay does every bs have? And what lives in that bay that can kill every single inti without any trouble? if you dont know, start playing wow or something, it has pretty colors and you dont have to think (much)... And in general for killing small targets id choose turrets over missiles every single time, because though they suffer from tracking issues, they dont suffer a damage loss... the raven is the undispuded ship for npcing on easy mode, however you can even npc in an arma way more effective if you know how... in pvp? rofl if you think a raven is a better ship to pvp with than lets say a domi, mega, arma, phoon or pest (apoc sucks indeed...) then please, by all means, state your name and ill keep an eye open for you... grrr, too bad people dont have to take like a test or something before posting on the forums... Another clueless 1vs1nist. Fit ravenS properly and they are best small gang ever.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 18:53:00 - [118] Originally by: Ryoka Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Ryoka wow, jet another omg the raven is uber thread.... jesus ****in.... Another clueless 1vs1nist. Fit ravenS properly and they are best small gang ever. Well LUKEC, fit 5 armas correctly, and you have the best small gang ever.... that gang argument is worth nothing, because if fitted for a sole and destinktive purpose and/or in combitation with other ships, every single ship can be brought to supreme results in its funcion... so please, either stay on the only real measurable argument or just stop whining Ok, train for arma if its superior. But that's where raven superiority strikes... 0-250km effective range and medslot galore is good. While 8 lows make difference only in number of wcs. + raven can work solo just as well.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.21 19:08:00 - [119] Originally by: Ryoka wow, jet another omg the raven is uber thread.... jesus **in.... every mega fitted by anyone with an iq over 80, which apparently is less than half of eves population, will RAVAGE a raven... pretty much every turret ship will... Rage missiles, rofl.... has any of you **in whiners ever used them? they plain suck...and they suck bad... and even if you strap on 20 target painters and 50 webs, a mega or an arma will outdamage you BAD, and will in contraire to a raven be able to mount a tank/EW (dont ask me about pest since i dont fly trash cans... :P) so figure by yourself how great rage missiles are... on the issue of no tracking... How retarded do you have to be to be killed by a single interceptor because you couldnt track it?! (dont get me wrong, my tara killed several bs's, but they were retards...), but even disregarding the tracking, hmm, lets think real hard here, what kind of bay does every bs have? And what lives in that bay that can kill every single inti without any trouble? if you dont know, start playing wow or something, it has pretty colors and you dont have to think (much)... And in general for killing small targets id choose turrets over missiles every single time, because though they suffer from tracking issues, they dont suffer a damage loss... the raven is the undispuded ship for npcing on easy mode, however you can even npc in an arma way more effective if you know how... in pvp? rofl if you think a raven is a better ship to pvp with than lets say a domi, mega, arma, phoon or pest (apoc sucks indeed...) then please, by all means, state your name and ill keep an eye open for you... grrr, too bad people dont have to take like a test or something before posting on the forums... Several months ago I did some extensive testing vs. some good friends. At the time I had a near perfect Blasterthron (i.e max gunnery skills including Blaster spec V), running a full T2 setup, T2 ammo vs. a decently skilled (but far from perfect) Raven using T1 Torpedos. Starting at 15km I would win but be left on 33-50% Structure. Replace with a pilot with comparable skills to the Raven pilot (i.e. most at level IV) and it would have been no contest - the Megathron would get owned in every fight. Increase the starting distance to 25-30km and it's no contest regardless of how skilled the Megathron pilot is. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Ryoka Infinite Opportunities Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.21 19:11:00 - [120] ok ive got very litle time left before i have to get get out hammered... but: damn dude, what 0-250km? wtf are you talking about? at max skills a cruise missiles would still like need 30s to cross the distance of 200km... do you know what 30s even in fleet pvp are? 30s are the time you need to crash your ts twice and still get out before even the first missile hits you.... bla... ok med slots are move valueble than low slots, but thats ccps fault, yet the the arma can mount more damge and much more tank than its raven counterpart can... and besides, thanks for the hint of training for the arma, guess what i did, and for the mega aswell... on a sidenote i wouldnt even need to train for anythintg but a raven, cuz im not the ******* wuss whining that its nber.... thank you, good night, hate you all....
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.10.21 19:12:00 - [121] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Several months ago I did some extensive testing vs. some good friends. At the time I had a near perfect Blasterthron (i.e max gunnery skills including Blaster spec V), running a full T2 setup, T2 ammo vs. a decently skilled (but far from perfect) Raven using T1 Torpedos. Starting at 15km I would win but be left on 33-50% Structure. Replace with a pilot with comparable skills to the Raven pilot (i.e. most at level IV) and it would have been no contest - the Megathron would get owned in every fight. Increase the starting distance to 25-30km and it's no contest regardless of how skilled the Megathron pilot is. By the way I am still waiting for an AC tempest setup that can either: a) beat a skilled raven 1 vs 1; b) be better solo; c) be better in small gangs. I'm not holding my breath though, as I'm quite interested in staying alive. NB. In Rust We Trust
Wilfan Ret'nub Singularity.	Posted - 2006.10.21 20:07:00 - [122] Originally by: Ryoka ok ive got very litle time left before i have to get get out hammered... but: damn dude, what 0-250km? wtf are you talking about? Tacklers or bubbles. You don't have to be at 250 km away, but you have that option. 80-150 km is more common. Though with the tank or ECM, Raven can get stuck in without much fear, unlike snipers. ------ No ISK, no fun
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 20:41:00 - [123] Originally by: Ryoka ok ive got very litle time left before i have to get get out hammered... but: damn dude, what 0-250km? wtf are you talking about? I'm talking about 650dps of chosen dmg type, never missing. It takes some time, but you have option. You are looking at situation through brick wall of I, me & myself. I hope you meet burn eden to school you
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.21 23:15:00 - [124] Originally by: LUKEC I can do it, too. It's called magic ring of huggins... You won't hit inty with transversal speed at 200km and at 20km, eagles have problems tracking them. Did I SAY 20km? No, I said 30km. You said that no gun could hit anything smaller than a battleship at less than 60km. it makes all the rest of your arguments seem invalid when you overexaggerate so blatantly. Originally by: LUKEC Watch this to see what's difference between raven and tempest(who used magic trick but he forgot to use it b4 uncloaking ): <snip> Just to add, if that would be caracal/raven instead of eagle, tempest would survive. Really not sure what you're trying to prove with this statment and Video...so the Crusader orbits close (a lot closer than 20km I think) and helps the Eagle take down a Tempest (which was already badly damaged when the video started). then you go on to say that if you replaced the crusader with a caracal or Raven the Tempest would SRUVIVE, but this is a video supposedly showing the superiority of missiles...? I don't get it. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.21 23:54:00 - [125] Edited by: LUKEC on 21/10/2006 23:58:33 Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: LUKEC I can do it, too. It's called magic ring of huggins... You won't hit inty with transversal speed at 200km and at 20km, eagles have problems tracking them. Did I SAY 20km? No, I said 30km. You said that no gun could hit anything smaller than a battleship at less than 60km. it makes all the rest of your arguments seem invalid when you overexaggerate so blatantly. Originally by: LUKEC Watch this to see what's difference between raven and tempest(who used magic trick but he forgot to use it b4 uncloaking ): <snip> Just to add, if that would be caracal/raven instead of eagle, tempest would survive. Really not sure what you're trying to prove with this statment and Video...so the Crusader orbits close (a lot closer than 20km I think) and helps the Eagle take down a Tempest (which was already badly damaged when the video started). then you go on to say that if you replaced the crusader with a caracal or Raven the Tempest would SRUVIVE, but this is a video supposedly showing the superiority of missiles...? I don't get it. Eagle was protecting tempest, you ..... Do you think i'm locking friendlys all over the place? Maybe you don't know what - on overview stands for. + is for npcs obviously. And at 30 you might hit something with pulses, with beams you won't his anything apart from nubs.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.22 10:43:00 - [126] Edited by: Grey Area on 22/10/2006 10:43:18 Originally by: LUKEC Why would it die? Try guns and come back. Intys are invulnerable at 17km orbit, but with guns, everything smaller than bs is invulnerable up to 60km. Followed by; Originally by: LUKEC And at 30 you might hit something with pulses, with beams you won't his anything apart from nubs. So are pulses not guns, all of a sudden? --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."

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