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Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 09:40:00 - [1] Iam just curious, whats your best DPS in a Raven. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 09:43:00 - [2] Ask Shin Ra. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Sir Bart	Posted - 2006.10.17 09:52:00 - [3] I worked out all ships once for max dps about 8 months ago. Raven using t2 torps and target painters (against a BS) can acheive 2nd highest dps (to the megathron /w blasters). Geddon was third. Sir Bart
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 10:12:00 - [4] Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp Only t2 stuff, that's t1/javelin torps. Add drones, number of launchers as you like. For painters+rages, it's 50% more. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.17 10:40:00 - [5] Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp Only t2 stuff, that's t1/javelin torps. Add drones, number of launchers as you like. For painters+rages, it's 50% more. Yeah, missile damage sucks. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 10:54:00 - [6] Originally by: Jim McGregor Yeah, missile damage sucks. Oh yes. The highest damage output of this deadly raven with 6 torp launchers and maxed skills being... 688. Wow. Not to mention that 3/8 battleship's sigs are too small to be affected fully. Oh, and anyone with an afterburner or microwarp on their battleship will see a pretty good damage reduction (if not using javelins). Missiles r teh pwn! As for rages and painters, those require people to be going less than 100m/s and to have a sig of 1000 for that. That means that you need 5 midslots used up (web and 4 painters) to get that DPS out. That amazing 1032 DPS. Not to mention that with rage torps, you can't actually sustain 4 painters and a stasis web. Does nice things to your cap, that Also, for those who were wondering, hail/rage typhoon has the highest max possible DPS IIRC, as the only BS with 8 weapon hardpoints with a damage bonus, as well as a full drone bay. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Uggster Caldari Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.17 10:58:00 - [7] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Jim McGregor Yeah, missile damage sucks. Oh yes. The highest damage output of this deadly raven with 6 torp launchers and maxed skills being... 688. Wow. Not to mention that 3/8 battleship's sigs are too small to be affected fully. Oh, and anyone with an afterburner or microwarp on their battleship will see a pretty good damage reduction (if not using javelins). Missiles r teh pwn! As for rages and painters, those require people to be going less than 100m/s and to have a sig of 1000 for that. That means that you need 5 midslots used up (web and 4 painters) to get that DPS out. That amazing 1032 DPS. Not to mention that with rage torps, you can't actually sustain 4 painters and a stasis web. Does nice things to your cap, that Also, for those who were wondering, hail/rage typhoon has the highest max possible DPS IIRC, as the only BS with 8 weapon hardpoints with a damage bonus, as well as a full drone bay. I wonder....have you ever been hit by a missile since the patch just after you have turned on a MWD. It's not a pretty sight. _______________________________________________ Sig removed as inappropriate- Tirg
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:00:00 - [8] Originally by: Uggster I wonder....have you ever been hit by a missile since the patch just after you have turned on a MWD. It's not a pretty sight. Actually, yes I have. However, shortly after the sad explosion of my rupture (RIP Blowdry), I came to realise that you can, in fact, SEE the missiles. And then, if one is about to hit you, you don't turn on your MWD. Since discovering this fact, my life has changed, and so can yours! RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:04:00 - [9] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Jim McGregor Yeah, missile damage sucks. Oh yes. The highest damage output of this deadly raven with 6 torp launchers and maxed skills being... 688. Wow. Not to mention that 3/8 battleship's sigs are too small to be affected fully. Oh, and anyone with an afterburner or microwarp on their battleship will see a pretty good damage reduction (if not using javelins). Missiles r teh pwn! As for rages and painters, those require people to be going less than 100m/s and to have a sig of 1000 for that. That means that you need 5 midslots used up (web and 4 painters) to get that DPS out. That amazing 1032 DPS. Not to mention that with rage torps, you can't actually sustain 4 painters and a stasis web. Does nice things to your cap, that Also, for those who were wondering, hail/rage typhoon has the highest max possible DPS IIRC, as the only BS with 8 weapon hardpoints with a damage bonus, as well as a full drone bay. Yeah raven sucks, doesn't it. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:10:00 - [10] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp Only t2 stuff, that's t1/javelin torps. Add drones, number of launchers as you like. For painters+rages, it's 50% more. Yeah, missile damage sucks. Thats with an utterly ridiculous setup that no-one in their right mind would use in a real Eve pvp scenario... Missiles give the least dps with useable setups. Simple. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:13:00 - [11] Originally by: LUKEC Yeah raven sucks, doesn't it. Raven most definitely does not suck, but saying it has amazing DPS is just plain wrong. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:16:00 - [12] Some time ago: - Missiles hit everything up to full dmg regardless of size/speed etc. The only defence against missiles is out running them with high-speed or a well timed smartbomb (only possible on a BS, not on lower class before seriously gimping your setup). Some missile changes come in (some call it a nerf, I call it a boost): - Missiles still hit everything, dmg reduced by low signature and high speed. The speed is upped so the only defence against missiles which was out running them or smartbombing them is no more an option. Conditions under which turret shots miss their target completely, missiles still do dmg. Some caldari whinage later: - Missiles get their T2 versions which removes their penalties added during the "some missile changes" era and puts them back into the superior, overpowered, position back before any change occured. Some more problems: - Missile HP was increased, defender dmg NOT - Missile speed was increased, defender speed NOT - There is no EW system that neutralizes ships with missile launchers - Missiles were given 0 cap usage so neutralizing their cap isnt an option anymore either If fleet combat wasnt this "Sniper-blob" bull** and was more like back 2-3 years ago with a med-close range slug fest then we would see much more whinage against missiles. All I want is an effective counter module against missiles, just like tracking disruptors.**
Johnny Bravo Gallente Draconis Navitas Aeterna Pure.	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:19:00 - [13] Look here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any...
Fuglife Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:21:00 - [14] Raven pilots have it easy, afk pvp. Please resize your e-peen to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes No - Fuglife Please its far too big - Eris
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:23:00 - [15] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp Only t2 stuff, that's t1/javelin torps. Add drones, number of launchers as you like. For painters+rages, it's 50% more. Yeah, missile damage sucks. Thats with an utterly ridiculous setup that no-one in their right mind would use in a real Eve pvp scenario... Missiles give the least dps with useable setups. Simple. Yeah and we constantly do gentleman style 1-on-1s and DPS is the determining factor for the outcome of a fight.. suuure The fact that a missile boat can orbit you at MWD speeds and do full dmg while your guns have no chance of tracking it is already overpowering missiles. Tracking > DPS... Since missile have no tracking they also dont need any DPS, apparently Tuxford thinks otherwise and we will soon see high-DPS assault missiles. Oh I dont even wanna think about the T2 versions of those.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:26:00 - [16] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp Only t2 stuff, that's t1/javelin torps. Add drones, number of launchers as you like. For painters+rages, it's 50% more. Yeah, missile damage sucks. Thats with an utterly ridiculous setup that no-one in their right mind would use in a real Eve pvp scenario... Missiles give the least dps with useable setups. Simple. Ofcourse you can reduce damage and rof by swithching some of 4 bcus II to WCS I, but ... i can fit very viable setups with 4x t2 bcus and possibly one of best tanks ingame. Just for muppets whining about dmg, blasterthron with electrons and 1 good dmg mod does less than 700dps with 2x 3% dmg implants. Ofc drones are life saver there. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:27:00 - [17] Originally by: Kunming Some time ago: - Missiles hit everything up to full dmg regardless of size/speed etc. The only defence against missiles is out running them with high-speed or a well timed smartbomb (only possible on a BS, not on lower class before seriously gimping your setup). Some missile changes come in (some call it a nerf, I call it a boost): - Missiles still hit everything, dmg reduced by low signature and high speed. The speed is upped so the only defence against missiles which was out running them or smartbombing them is no more an option. Conditions under which turret shots miss their target completely, missiles still do dmg. Some caldari whinage later: - Missiles get their T2 versions which removes their penalties added during the "some missile changes" era and puts them back into the superior, overpowered, position back before any change occured. Some more problems: - Missile HP was increased, defender dmg NOT - Missile speed was increased, defender speed NOT - There is no EW system that neutralizes ships with missile launchers - Missiles were given 0 cap usage so neutralizing their cap isnt an option anymore either If fleet combat wasnt this "Sniper-blob" bull** and was more like back 2-3 years ago with a med-close range slug fest then we would see much more whinage against missiles. All I want is an effective counter module against missiles, just like tracking disruptors. Caldari were ridiculously overpowered for a long time, no argument there. Then came the missile nerf (with exodus?) which crippled Caldari to the point of uselessness. Even our battleships struggled against tech I cruisers from all the other races because we just couldn't do any damage (this was before ecm changed). You took a Raven up against a Thorax back then and it was 50/50 who would come out alive. It was most definitely a nerf, and now its as balanced as its ever been. Originally by:** anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:28:00 - [18] I take it you haven't ever seen a MWDing raven? Imagine Johnny Vegas ice skating. That's about it. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:30:00 - [19] Originally by: Verus Potestas I take it you haven't ever seen a MWDing raven? Imagine Johnny Vegas ice skating. That's about it. I regularly use it, must say it's funny when 5-6 volleys strike target at once. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Masochist Shinra	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:39:00 - [20] Dual mwd raven was soooo sexyy
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:51:00 - [21] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Verus Potestas I take it you haven't ever seen a MWDing raven? Imagine Johnny Vegas ice skating. That's about it. I regularly use it, must say it's funny when 5-6 volleys strike target at once. Funny? You must have a sick sense of humor.. 5-6 volleys striking target at once means it does more alpha-dmg than an arty-pest on steroids. BTW for those of you who dont get it, you get blow up before you have a chance to activate your repairer/booster, or even if they are running on auto the effect wont counter the huge alpha you gonna eat! Combine that with the ECM tank caldari ships can fit easliy (plenty of meds + plenty of CPU), its disturbing to say the least. Anyway lets only concentrate on missiles (ECMs gonna get nurfed once CCP figures out whats wrong after the next alliance tournament anyway), welsh you seem to agree on most points with us, but fail to see that if you individualize the single elements of missiles they will not appear overpowered, only once you look at them in general context will you see the problems. I'm still insisting on an effective counter vs missiles!
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Kunming Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Verus Potestas I take it you haven't ever seen a MWDing raven? Imagine Johnny Vegas ice skating. That's about it. I regularly use it, must say it's funny when 5-6 volleys strike target at once. Funny? You must have a sick sense of humor.. 5-6 volleys striking target at once means it does more alpha-dmg than an arty-pest on steroids. BTW for those of you who dont get it, you get blow up before you have a chance to activate your repairer/booster, or even if they are running on auto the effect wont counter the huge alpha you gonna eat! Combine that with the ECM tank caldari ships can fit easliy (plenty of meds + plenty of CPU), its disturbing to say the least. Anyway lets only concentrate on missiles (ECMs gonna get nurfed once CCP figures out whats wrong after the next alliance tournament anyway), welsh you seem to agree on most points with us, but fail to see that if you individualize the single elements of missiles they will not appear overpowered, only once you look at them in general context will you see the problems. I'm still insisting on an effective counter vs missiles! Read again... i regularly use mwd raven, that's why i love it, like it and most certainly they don't hit me but "evil them". Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:04:00 - [23] ôLook here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any...ö It that very old? All I know is my Eos without a drone damage bonus kills over twice as fast as all my friends in Ravens, I use drones alone nothing else. I am normally half way though my target before my friends kill their first rat. We often pick 750k battleships and start firing at the same time and even with 50km travel time for drones I kill way faster. When I take my domi with lvl 5 BS for a large drone damage boost I kill Passive shield tanking guide click here
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:15:00 - [24] Originally by: LUKEC Read again... i regularly use mwd raven, that's why i love it, like it and most certainly they don't hit me but "evil them". /me scratches head.. huh? The reply to your quote ended with the first line, the rest was to enlighten the rest of the community. Sorry for the confusion.. I'm well aware you are using missiles by neccesarity and not by choice, if I trained up for a raven, they nerf it by the time I'm there, so I rather whine about overpowered stuff and stick to what I like doing.. blasters & close-range-love.
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Uggster It's not a pretty sight. rage don't have an agility to hit if u got on a orbit. Just it.. Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:24:00 - [26] Originally by: Pottsey ôLook here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any...ö It that very old? All I know is my Eos without a drone damage bonus kills over twice as fast as all my friends in Ravens, I use drones alone nothing else. I am normally half way though my target before my friends kill their first rat. We often pick 750k battleships and start firing at the same time and even with 50km travel time for drones I kill way faster. When I take my domi with lvl 5 BS for a large drone damage boost I kill even faster. That is rage torps. The ones which only hit capitals and POSes, unless you slap 4 painters and a web on RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:27:00 - [27] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Pottsey ôLook here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any...ö It that very old? All I know is my Eos without a drone damage bonus kills over twice as fast as all my friends in Ravens, I use drones alone nothing else. I am normally half way though my target before my friends kill their first rat. We often pick 750k battleships and start firing at the same time and even with 50km travel time for drones I kill way faster. When I take my domi with lvl 5 BS for a large drone damage boost I kill even faster. That is rage torps. The ones which only hit capitals and POSes, unless you slap 4 painters and a web on Which is not hard to do for caldari with their vast amount of mid slots, infact you even have space left for ECM!
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:30:00 - [28] Originally by: Kunming Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Pottsey ôLook here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any...ö It that very old? All I know is my Eos without a drone damage bonus kills over twice as fast as all my friends in Ravens, I use drones alone nothing else. I am normally half way though my target before my friends kill their first rat. We often pick 750k battleships and start firing at the same time and even with 50km travel time for drones I kill way faster. When I take my domi with lvl 5 BS for a large drone damage boost I kill even faster. That is rage torps. The ones which only hit capitals and POSes, unless you slap 4 painters and a web on Which is not hard to do for caldari with their vast amount of mid slots, infact you even have space left for ECM! Yeah. We are awesome like that. We have our 4 painters, our web and maybe even our ECM of win (because scrams are for noobs). Then with zero tank, we can almost match the DPS of a blasterthron! How awesome are we? While I know ravens are very good, rages simply aren't. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:35:00 - [29] Against another raven, with 'most' skills at 4 (MLO 5, Torps 5) I get a base dps of 350 or so. With 5 BCS IIs that's up to about 630dps. Add on some drones, and that's maybe up to 730. If you're using rage torps against a capital ship, you get a very good DPS, but ... well it doesn't come up that often from memory, a 'normal' torp does about 760 damage per shot, a rage does about 1150, but with a 1000m signature, it's not worth using rages unless you have a huginn backing you. The 'breakpoint' is about 700m signature for using rages, which is 75% of 'painting', just to do the same amount of damage. Realistically, I tend to find myself fitting 2-3 BCS, since I'm always running out of CPU and sometimes grid. Siege IIs really do make for hard fittings.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:41:00 - [30] Edited by: welsh wizard on 17/10/2006 12:42:03 I will concede that missiles need a more effective counter. I think that could help lessen many of the problems turret users face against missile pilots. I still think many of you are unable to accept that missiles considerable weaknesses are precisely that, considerable. You come on here and start reeling out numbers and unsubstantiated claims about how effective missiles are. Theres lots of arguments posed against Missiles that use completely unrealistic variables and situations that any missile user will tell you very rarely happen in combat. I can tell you now that experienced Raven pilots read these threads and honestly wonder what the hell you're talking about. It's a case of "Hang on!? Turret users can do this, this and this and I'm stuck with that! Why is he slagging my weapon system off when its actually not good at doing what hes claiming it can do?" You also have to accept that you're just not able to participate in certain scenarios as a missile boat either. Your only use in long range fleet fights is ECM or support killing. You can't properly solo in missile boats (Crow exception) without a tackler because you need to devote your midslots to ECM, tank or both. Surely you agree that Javelins are pretty hopeless for the solo pilot? No point in fighting if you can't hold the enemy in place tbh. In other words, missile ships excel at gang support, which is exactly what they're supposed to do. Understand that when you ask for a Javelin nerf Caldari pilots see it as a request to trash the one area our battleship excels in. If Javelins are nerfed the Raven suddenly becomes a run of the mill pvp battleship. Pretty much all the other races have battleships that excel in one particular area. The exception being the Apocalypse (arguably). We accept that when the BlasterMega or AutoPest gets in range its game over. There isn't many areas that Caldari excel in, support and ECM. That's it. It's a case of we're different, you chose another race and now you want to do the same things we can. This is my opinion, you'll all see yours as more valid, but understand that until you know what its like to be a Caldari pilot your arguments will be scoffed. "But I can fly Caldari ships!" Then you're letting your preference for your other race blind you. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.

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