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Lloyd Roses
913
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Posted - 2015.03.17 22:33:23 -
[31] - Quote
T3 Destroyers only point out how completely crappy AFs are atm. Else, they're great at being a glorified destroyer that shreds any other small hull (what'd you expect, seriously) and becomes useless once you put a cruiser with a competent pilot on the field. Their sig/speed is just not good. The confessor is a sheet of paper. The svipul got either a tank and fights in spitting range, or it's got artillery and not much of a tank.
Fact that people use them to kill cruisers 1v1 left and right would rather be incompetent pilots on one side rather than T3 dessis OP. In case: A thrasher can kill a ratting tengu, you don't need a svipul for that.
I GÖÑ Sleipnir
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Arthur Aihaken
Narada
4132
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Posted - 2015.03.18 04:22:05 -
[32] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:T3 Destroyers only point out how completely crappy AFs are atm. Else, they're great at being a glorified destroyer that shreds any other small hull (what'd you expect, seriously) and becomes useless once you put a cruiser with a competent pilot on the field. Their sig/speed is just not good. The confessor is a sheet of paper. The svipul got either a tank and fights in spitting range, or it's got artillery and not much of a tank.
Fact that people use them to kill cruisers 1v1 left and right would rather be incompetent pilots on one side rather than T3 dessis OP. In case: A thrasher can kill a ratting tengu, you don't need a svipul for that. Is it that Assault Frigates are crappy - or is it that players have switched to T3 Destroyers and/or T3 Destroyers are dominating small FW complexes?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
730
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Posted - 2015.03.18 04:46:00 -
[33] - Quote
I don't think AFs are crappy at all, I think T3D just replace them and everything else below them.
The price isn't the issue, it's their capabilities. Nerf their grid into the ground -> problem solved.
You retain the capable ship class, though it will no longer be able to curbstomp everything smaller than a BC (that isn't an Ishtar).
https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage
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Shelom Severasse
Burning Alder
50
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Posted - 2015.03.18 11:47:51 -
[34] - Quote
Anny Jackson wrote:Well, they are way too OP for 40kk. But for 100-120 kk they would be just the next tier ships comparing to assault frigates and destroyers. I think CCP should look into the problem. lemme break it down for ya
theres this thing called supply and demand
when demand fluctuates positively, prices rise, when it falls, prices fall
the fact that the confessor has hovered around 40m for a while a now means that we, as a player base, have decided how much this ship is worth.
besides, saying something is op without evidence is really just an opinion and unfounded. however, if the ship was to be found as op, changing the materials to make 1 of these ships is not the correct action.
why? you ask? because if the ship is truly op, people will keep buying it regardless of the price (looks at the price disparity between the worm and cruor)
in short, the t3 dessies are fine as is atm |

Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1307
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Posted - 2015.03.18 12:30:48 -
[35] - Quote
Shelom Severasse wrote:Anny Jackson wrote:Well, they are way too OP for 40kk. But for 100-120 kk they would be just the next tier ships comparing to assault frigates and destroyers. I think CCP should look into the problem. lemme break it down for ya theres this thing called supply and demand when demand fluctuates positively, prices rise, when it falls, prices fall the fact that the confessor has hovered around 40m for a while a now means that we, as a player base, have decided how much this ship is worth. besides, saying something is op without evidence is really just an opinion and unfounded. however, if the ship was to be found as op, changing the materials to make 1 of these ships is not the correct action. why? you ask? because if the ship is truly op, people will keep buying it regardless of the price (looks at the price disparity between the worm and cruor) in short, the t3 dessies are fine as is atm
The first part is nonsense because now that scarcity is no longer an issue (supply has caught up with demand) the cost of the ship is largely determined by its production cost. Faction/pirate ships are inherently different as their cost comes from the BPC so using that as an explanation for your "logic" makes no sense.
Your last sentence is of course the (not so) hidden agenda, which is what your post is about: trying to validate that statement. |

March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1567
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Posted - 2015.03.18 16:14:26 -
[36] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Liam Inkuras wrote:Pricing is not a valid balance method A nice meme people keep spouting but its a lie. I've said this before, but If I sell an Ibis for 500bil that Ibis does not become better than a titan. look at this from other side: why in FW you see lots of cheap T1/faction frigates and not all dramiels/daredevils/garmurs?
I guess should price be not balancing factor here you would not see anything subpar to pirate ships around.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Oscae
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
29
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Posted - 2015.03.18 18:43:09 -
[37] - Quote
Price has never been a balancing factor, it is a detering factor.
The difference is CCP doesn't decide the price, for this see pirate ships; they have the material cost of T1 ships, it is the demand/effectivness of the ship, as Shelom mentioned with the Worm and the Cruror.
As for the detering factor, the reason you don't see everyone in deadspace fit pirate frigs in FW is because they are expensive to replace, and after a while of losing fights you will run out of money, hence the cheaper alternatives.
The key is finding a balance between cost and effectiveness, that doesn't end up with something being cheap and effective simultaneuosly, there should be something that gives. D3s just so happen to be cheap enough whilst retaining effectiveness that they've hit a personal sweet spot where I don't feel to bad about losing one and they are good enough not to be lost too often, providing you know how to fly.
TL;DR Cost is irrelevant, look to actual ship balance if you have an issue and provide real feedback/suggestions
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Reina Xyaer
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
68
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Posted - 2015.03.18 18:57:49 -
[38] - Quote
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Price is not a legitimate balance factor.
D3s are OP... nerf them. |

Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1309
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Posted - 2015.03.18 19:18:03 -
[39] - Quote
Oscae wrote:TL;DR Cost is irrelevant, look to actual ship balance if you have an issue and provide real feedback/suggestions
In that case you won't mind if CCP changed the materials/effort so that production cost goes up to 250m.
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Anny Jackson
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2015.03.18 22:11:03 -
[40] - Quote
I think there is another way to fix T3 destroyers - to prohibit using oversized modules. Like 10 MN AB on ships smaller than cruisers. Or 100 MN ABs on ships smaller than BSs. |

Oscae
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
29
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Posted - 2015.03.18 22:11:30 -
[41] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Oscae wrote:TL;DR Cost is irrelevant, look to actual ship balance if you have an issue and provide real feedback/suggestions
In that case you won't mind if CCP changed the materials/effort so that production cost goes up to 250m.
That doesn't make any logical sense, not even Ishtars cost that much, and we all know how OP they are right?
Also you appear to have misread my point, when I say cost is irrelevant, I dion't mean you can go and screw with it as much as you want, I mean it's not even something that should be considered. Why not look at why the ship is OP: over sized prop mod as standard? Lower PG. too much damage? lower the damage bonus to 7.5 or 5%/level.
Stop trying to use cost as a balancing factor when it is simply a non-factor regarding ship balance. yes it affects how much those ships are used, but look at why they're being used and so effectively and fix that. |

Arthur Aihaken
Narada
4132
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Posted - 2015.03.18 22:26:25 -
[42] - Quote
Anny Jackson wrote:I think there is another way to fix T3 destroyers - to prohibit using oversized modules. Like 10 MN AB on ships smaller than cruisers. Or 100 MN ABs on ships smaller than BSs. This is an issue that affects more than just T3 Destroyers and is worth a separate discussion. But yes, if modules (which includes plates, shield extenders, shield boosters and armour repairers) were limited by class - a lot of these ships may not longer be OP.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1311
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Posted - 2015.03.18 23:43:47 -
[43] - Quote
Oscae wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Oscae wrote:TL;DR Cost is irrelevant, look to actual ship balance if you have an issue and provide real feedback/suggestions
In that case you won't mind if CCP changed the materials/effort so that production cost goes up to 250m. That doesn't make any logical sense, not even Ishtars cost that much, and we all know how OP they are right? Also you appear to have misread my point, when I say cost is irrelevant, I dion't mean you can go and screw with it as much as you want, I mean it's not even something that should be considered. Why not look at why the ship is OP: over sized prop mod as standard? Lower PG. too much damage? lower the damage bonus to 7.5 or 5%/level. Stop trying to use cost as a balancing factor when it is simply a non-factor regarding ship balance. yes it affects how much those ships are used, but look at why they're being used and so effectively and fix that.
Nono, you stated that cost is not a factor and isn't relevant at all so in that case you should not care about them becoming more expensive. You spout the stupid meme, you get the to deal with the responses.
Yes, the T3D need to be nerfed but they also need to be made more expensive. Not 250 mil expensive but about double of what they are now. |

Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1093
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Posted - 2015.03.18 23:46:24 -
[44] - Quote
small hull sections need to give less runs per BPC they engineer into and drop more frequently. Overall the effect should be less t3 destroyer hulls produced and price will go up. |

Aeryn Atropos
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2015.03.19 16:30:05 -
[45] - Quote
Cost is of course one of the factors of balance, bigger more expensive ships are meant to take on more ships of a lesser class. T3 destroyers are meant to be able to take on multiple frigates just like a Hurricane BC is meant to take on more than one omen.
Now the price for a T3 destroyer is I think not that bad either, for a full fit the price tag is somewhere around 75 million. For that price you can fit either 2 t2 frigates and some t1's or 3 t2's, that ought to give you about a 50/50 chance of winning the engagement, if it doesn't that speaks more about your fleet comp and skills than it does about the dessy. If you are one of the people whinging about how the t3 dessy can take on AF frigates you deserve to lose just like anyone that tries to out brawl a Deimos with Thorax's.
to kill a t3 dessy ought to be fairly simple 1 EWAR frigate (any of the non minmatar t2's) plus one tackle frigate (the minmatar T2 EWAR ship is good here though) will leave them helpless and trapped. add dps as necessary. |

Claud Tiberius
Fidelas Constans
102
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Posted - 2015.03.19 23:33:49 -
[46] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:pricing has nothing to do with CCP, if the ship itself is too overpowered (sentry ishtars) then they will rebalance.
Price is significant. Otherwise everyone would just use the best ships in the game, all the time.
Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2754
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Posted - 2015.03.20 00:58:01 -
[47] - Quote
Claud Tiberius wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:pricing has nothing to do with CCP, if the ship itself is too overpowered (sentry ishtars) then they will rebalance.
Price is significant. Otherwise everyone would just use the best ships in the game, all the time. Which is what ship? Please do tell what one ship is the best in the game.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
386
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Posted - 2015.03.20 02:12:04 -
[48] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:pricing has nothing to do with CCP, if the ship itself is too overpowered (sentry ishtars) then they will rebalance.
Pricing has everything to do with CCP. They set the materials need to build.
aka Domi to cheap, raised the mineral requirements.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
942
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Posted - 2015.03.20 19:40:41 -
[49] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Claud Tiberius wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:pricing has nothing to do with CCP, if the ship itself is too overpowered (sentry ishtars) then they will rebalance.
Price is significant. Otherwise everyone would just use the best ships in the game, all the time. Which is what ship? Please do tell what one ship is the best in the game. 
Why would I fly a T1 cruiser EVER when I can HAC/Mordus? Why would I fly a T1 frig, ever when I can Inty/AF as required? Why would I fly a T1 BS ever when I can use faction ones? Why would I use a T1 mining hull when I can use the T2?
Because COST.
To ignore its role in broad levels of balance is folly. You cannot RELY on it as a balancing factor but nor can one completely ignore it.
Case in point - the reason people fly things other than orthrus at the cruiser tier is because at 280m a pop, that's going to start to hurt before long.
tl;dr "cost" is not an excuse for a ship being blatantly overpowered, but it CAN be valid to say a given hull provides too much power for too LITTLE cost. |

Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1320
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 21:56:18 -
[50] - Quote
Btw, the other 2 T3D are coming and as feared: the Caldari one is lml/rocket. The Gallente one is just silly. |

Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
25
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Posted - 2015.03.20 22:39:15 -
[51] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Btw, the other 2 T3D are coming and as feared: the Caldari one is lml/rocket. The Gallente one is just silly. Silly? on which point of view? |

Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1320
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Posted - 2015.03.20 23:02:50 -
[52] - Quote
Atomeon wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Btw, the other 2 T3D are coming and as feared: the Caldari one is lml/rocket. The Gallente one is just silly. Silly? on which point of view?
The balance one, the only one that counts. high dps and a moronic tank, from what I understood it's already getting prenerfed. |

afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
943
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 23:39:04 -
[53] - Quote
The caldari one is going to be stupid. Beyond stupid.
A lot of people are excited about mad hull tanks, however I'm thinking: oversized prop mod, propulsion mode and tracking independent weapons. i.e. independent of your OWN movement....it's going to be ridiculous. It'll make the garmur look like a rocket rifter. |

Arthur Aihaken
Narada
4148
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Posted - 2015.03.21 00:01:26 -
[54] - Quote
afkalt wrote:The caldari one is going to be stupid. Beyond stupid. Yes. It is... 
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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