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CorranCHalcyon
State-N-War Alternate Allegiance
0
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Posted - 2015.03.19 15:17:18 -
[1] - Quote
Okay, what I have been thinking about is a way to use titans in an effective way on the battlefield beyond bridging and DD other supers/capitals off the field. I wanted to see Titans have more flexability and a greater purpose in large fleet battles.
So I thought there could be a module (High slot) that could be fit to a Titan that would act in a similar fashion to a seige/triage module. To the effect that the Titan would become immobile, the Titan could not warp or "dock."
However in fitting this module would prevent a DD module form being fitted, or just disable it so it could not fire. If the Titan has guns fit to it those would still be operable. The module would require fuel to run; just like a siege/triage module.
Now those are the basic negatives. What this module does for the Titan is it turns it into a mobile space station. Players can dock with the titan just like a station and the Fleet Maintenance Arrays are fully accessible to the players docked in the station along with the full fitting ability. The Titan pilot can of course drag and drop more fuel from his various bays into the necessary fuel bay for the station module. This would give pilots access to fresh ships and supplies during the battle without the titan/carrier pilot ejecting a ship into space for a pilot in their pod to jump in before either are destroyed, or grabbed by somebody else.
This would allow a Titan to bridge fleets to the battlefield then jumping itself can carry a small fleet worth of replacement ships, modules and ammo to help resupply the fleet during the battle itself. This allows Titans to become mobile command stations when an alliance is battling for control of a system/constellation.
This would add more value to a Titan beyond its DD for a fleet. This also provides more flexibility for Titans while not diminishing their current role on the battlefield.
It is not a complete idea but I believe it is a good starting point to breath new life and purpose into Titans.
And if you choose to use my idea or some part of it, can I have credit somwhere in the module description? Credit where credit is due. |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1273
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Posted - 2015.03.19 15:34:45 -
[2] - Quote
CorranCHalcyon wrote: And if you choose to use my idea or some part of it, can I have credit somwhere in the module description? Credit where credit is due.
Credit comes if CCP decides you use your idea and you are not the 347th person to propose it. But you are.
See the other problem with this is that Titans have a ship maintenance array.
They already can allow people to take the ships out of them by selecting "Allow fleet members to access SMA" option in their inventory page.
No need to siege, no need to go station mode, no need to leave a POS. Fleet members walk up, jump in ship, return to fight if the ship is stocked and configured to do so. Titan already has 90% of the functionality you propose.
It's just rare to see it aside from the occasional carrier, supercarrier, or titan with a stockpile of light dictors for emergency use in pinning down a supercap.
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CorranCHalcyon
State-N-War Alternate Allegiance
0
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Posted - 2015.03.19 16:05:32 -
[3] - Quote
As I said it is not a complete idea. However Allowing players to dock would help prevent pilots from getting podded off the field before they can grab a new ship. And there can be additional bonuses given the a Titan using the module that would be beneficial to the fleet.
My point is that Titans are a floundering ship class. They have two uses on the battlefield, bridging and DD. They need more versatility on the battlefield. If you have any ideas on how to expand my idea I would enjoy hearing them. |
Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
102
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Posted - 2015.03.19 17:40:07 -
[4] - Quote
We can all read the writing on wall. The future of super-caps is in support of sup-cap fleets, including ship carrying duty (Bowheads with fighters and doomsdays). If this is how Fozzie & Co. intend titan and super-carriers to be used in the future then these function should be streamlined.
- Allow titan clone vats to be used for medical clone respawn (dialogue pops us to give players the option between their station MC and their titan MC). - Allow full docking (as you suggest) with the familiar in-station environment. - And I think it'd be cool is you could keep you pod in the titan and fly ships from its maintenance bay remotely.
Would this be overpowered? Well, isn't that the whole idea of titans?
(Disclaimer: I've never flown a titan, fought with or against a titan, or even seen a titan in person. You are free to disregard my opinions on the whole subject.) |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2386
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Posted - 2015.03.19 18:00:16 -
[5] - Quote
I was just going to post a thread suggesting a capital ship that could act like a mobile station when I saw this thread. So I'll dump my idea here, and briefly discuss how I feel about the OP:
My idea was to make a new capital ship that is designed around its ability to be a mobile base. It could anchor, perhaps by using a type of siege module as suggested in the OP, and it would generate a protective POS shield bubble around itself. If this ship has its armor drained while anchored, it would go into reinforcement allowing time to rescue it, but it couldn't be flown anywhere until it is brought out of reinforcement. If it is unanchored when its armor is depleted, it will go into structure like any other capital and can be killed instantly. The ship would have features somewhere between a capital and a station, including the ability for capsuleers to actually dock inside it--not just put their ships in the SMA but also to ride in it as it jumps rather than having to follow along outside. When anchored, its weapons would disable for, say, an hour, and then would come online stronger than before. The hour disable prevents in-combat anchoring to try to gain an edge in a battle.
I think it makes some sense to allow titans to do something like this. My idea was going to be something the size of a carrier or dreadnought, but a supercapital version would be great. I think it needs to have reinforcement, and be slow to siege/anchor so that it can defend itself while immobile but it should take a considerable amount of logistical effort to hunker it down. This ensures it's used as a mobile base, not as a mobile ship that you're calling a base.
A Caldari is just a Gallente who begged to have their civil liberties taken away.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
922
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Posted - 2015.03.19 18:20:20 -
[6] - Quote
do people not remember that CCP tried to make it so we could dock in the ships of others but that it simply couldn't be done
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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CorranCHalcyon
State-N-War Alternate Allegiance
1
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Posted - 2015.03.19 18:32:51 -
[7] - Quote
That is why I like adding to the Titan class. It takes an existing ship class that has a very limited use and gives it actual versatility. I would like Titans to have a unique interior to them for the players that dock in them. You should know that you are docked in a Titan and not a station.
I like your idea that a player could have their MC in the titan, but I think the clone bay shouldn't be active until the station module is active. That way the Titan pilot has to be functioning as a Mobile Command Station in order for pilots to have that ability.
It could be set that only one Titan acting as a MCS can be active in a system, or one per fleet. I don't believe the capabilities exist at this time for pilots to dock in a Titan while the Titan makes an FTL jump. I think that would make the Titan a little OP. He can bridge a fleet then jump with another fleet docked inside it. But jumping the fleet and having a clone bay that is active when the Titan becomes a MCS so pilots will wake up in the Titan with full bays of ships, modules and ammo.
Each Titan has what appears to be a docking force field on it somewhere. Sorry if my thoughts are a bit disjointed, 22 hours without sleep. I couldn't miss FanFest. |
CorranCHalcyon
State-N-War Alternate Allegiance
1
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Posted - 2015.03.19 18:36:52 -
[8] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:do people not remember that CCP tried to make it so we could dock in the ships of others but that it simply couldn't be done
I honestly don't remember that. However that was then, new developments in programing languages, engines and scripting have happened.
I will add: Even if it was attempted before and failed, does not mean it is a bad idea on that fact alone. It simply means the technology and knowledge on that technologies capabilities had not been fully realized yet.
Look at the EVE and Dust connection. CCP was able to connect in real time two different games running on two different platforms. A small advance but an important advance. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2386
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Posted - 2015.03.19 19:08:25 -
[9] - Quote
I'm getting really tired of hearing people say X can't be done. In almost all cases not only can it be done, but it is in fact relatively easy to implement as a standalone feature. Usually when the creators say it can't be done, what they mean is one of the following things: 1.) It can't be done very easily with our current setup, or it requires more resources than it is worth 2.) The technology required for it does not mesh well with the technology the platform was built upon 3.) We have not yet come up with a way to make it happen 4.) We are not interested in the idea and do not currently plan to implement it, no matter how easy it is
A Caldari is just a Gallente who begged to have their civil liberties taken away.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
923
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Posted - 2015.03.19 19:58:36 -
[10] - Quote
CorranCHalcyon wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:do people not remember that CCP tried to make it so we could dock in the ships of others but that it simply couldn't be done I honestly don't remember that. However that was then, new developments in programing languages, engines and scripting have happened. I will add: Even if it was attempted before and failed, does not mean it is a bad idea on that fact alone. It simply means the technology and knowledge on that technologies capabilities had not been fully realized yet. Look at the EVE and Dust connection. CCP was able to connect in real time two different games running on two different platforms. A small advance but an important advance.
I believe it was fozzi who just brought it back up again less than a year ago as an example of how limitations can keep them from doing what they originally envisioned. it's do to the legacy code in the game engine itself and when you have to start making changes to that it is generally more time/effort than it is worth
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Catherine Laartii
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
487
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Posted - 2015.03.20 00:43:04 -
[11] - Quote
How about a halfway measure that lets people literally dock their ship in it like a station, with a special environment and everything? This would extend to any capital with a maint bay, but unlike stations you still have to adhere to the capacity limit. That being said, you could carry a bunch of pods in the bay. |
CorranCHalcyon
State-N-War Alternate Allegiance
3
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Posted - 2015.03.20 05:51:27 -
[12] - Quote
CorranCHalcyon wrote:
I will add: Even if it was attempted before and failed, does not mean it is a bad idea on that fact alone. It simply means the technology and knowledge on that technologies capabilities had not been fully realized yet.
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3262
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Posted - 2015.03.20 11:22:50 -
[13] - Quote
So what happens when the immobile station-titan eats a dozen doomsdays and explodes while a load of people are inside it? |
Janeway84
Def Squadron Pride Before Fall
151
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Posted - 2015.03.20 12:31:39 -
[14] - Quote
they loose their pods ofc! It will be awesome! Would be pretty bad ass with a big ship hangar in titans so player ships could dock up and launch from it , so it would be like a mobile station. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3262
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Posted - 2015.03.20 12:33:17 -
[15] - Quote
Janeway84 wrote:they loose their pods ofc! It will be awesome!
And what happens when it or they log off? |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1517
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Posted - 2015.03.20 12:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:So what happens when the immobile station-titan eats a dozen doomsdays and explodes while a load of people are inside it? They die.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
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Grezh
The Scope Gallente Federation
34
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Posted - 2015.03.20 19:03:07 -
[17] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:
And what happens when it or they log off?
It can be extrapolated from current in-space logoff mechanics, all those docked in a titan inherit it's aggression timers and if they log off while inside and all their timers run out the current mechanic come into play and they cannot be interacted with. If the titan that they are docked in dies then they might autowarp to a random spot 1 mil km from where it died when they log on. On the other hand, if their timers don't run out before the titan dies then they die with it. |
Sadr Dillinger
Nulli-Secundus
0
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Posted - 2015.03.20 19:08:47 -
[18] - Quote
Titan 'anchors', loses hidden signature penalty to X-large guns?... |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
890
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Posted - 2015.03.20 20:06:57 -
[19] - Quote
Supercapitals as semi-mobile, anchorable, destructible stations seems like one of the best directions in which to take them at this point in the game. When the Supercapital ship anchors, the pilot ejects and the station then becomes like any other station. Except that the pilot - and those members of the corporation granted the proper roles - get a special view outside the station, which they can use to target things using the Supercapital's weapons - be they fighter bays, neutralizers, smartbombs, turrets, remote repair modules, etc. Or the station could be configured in the command mode running leadership links. Or whatever...
Anchored Supercapitals get vastly increased hangars, cloning services, etc.
If the Supercapital/station gets destroyed, normal loot mechanics apply. Any pod pilots inside a station when it is destroyed would reappear in their home station (or something like that).
Edit - the fact that you are not the first person to think of this idea (neither am I), is not a strike against it.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2386
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Posted - 2015.03.21 04:18:37 -
[20] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:So what happens when the immobile station-titan eats a dozen doomsdays and explodes while a load of people are inside it? Obviously it goes into reinforcement mode. Now if it gets blown up after reinforcement then the ships fall out, and the pods stay offline.
A Caldari is just a Gallente who begged to have their civil liberties taken away.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
929
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Posted - 2015.03.21 04:22:44 -
[21] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:How about a halfway measure that lets people literally dock their ship in it like a station, with a special environment and everything? This would extend to any capital with a maint bay, but unlike stations you still have to adhere to the capacity limit. That being said, you could carry a bunch of pods in the bay.
does everyone in the bay get a Jump timer if the ship jumps and do they get it if they are offline and what happens if the pilot logs off
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2386
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Posted - 2015.03.21 04:27:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:everyone in the bay get a Jump timer if the ship jumps and do they get it if they are offline and what happens if the pilot logs off Of course they get a jump timer, even if they are offline. If they don't want it, they should climb out of the ship. If the pilot logs off, the ship disappears as normal, if someone on board it logs on, they are popped out. Problems? Work it out with the management in your corp.
Of course I'd like to see supercapitals never disappear from space, so then people could just come and dock/undock all they like while the pilot is offline, provided they have access. Now before you say it puts undue pressure on the pilot, I say the pilot should be able to eject from the titan and lock it, and allow corp or alliance to limit/control access to the pilot seat.
A Caldari is just a Gallente who begged to have their civil liberties taken away.
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Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
104
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Posted - 2015.03.21 05:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Supercapitals as semi-mobile, anchorable, destructible stations seems like one of the best directions in which to take them at this point in the game. When the Supercapital ship anchors, the pilot ejects and the station then becomes like any other station... Here's a silly thought...
What if you could do the reverse with player constructed Outposts? Load it up with lots and lots of isotopes and fly away Stargate Atlantis style. The new sovereignty system is going to result in some sprawling alliances having to consolidate their territory. This may mean loosing control of things they invested huge amounts of ISK and material into. They arenGÇÖt going to be happy about loosing what they worked so hard to build, Maybe they shouldn't have to... |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
82
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Posted - 2015.03.21 11:40:38 -
[24] - Quote
if that's an attempt to bring a fresh breath into a Titans and made them flying POS's it's simply no no.
Titan - is a biggest destructive weapon in game. Let it stay as is but taking into the mind coming changes it is require to fit htat weapon into new meta frames. |
Neo Digital
True Space Fearless
10
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Posted - 2015.03.21 12:29:21 -
[25] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:So what happens when the immobile station-titan eats a dozen doomsdays and explodes while a load of people are inside it?
Their minds could be transferred to their clones in their respective home stations, and the assets would be gone with the now wreckage titan.
o7
~Neo Digital
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2389
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Posted - 2015.03.21 18:26:12 -
[26] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Titan - is a biggest destructive weapon in game. Let it stay as is but taking into the mind coming changes it is require to fit htat weapon into new meta frames. I can't help but feel like the reason it was made into a destructive platform originally was simply because CCP did not currently have any actual plans for its use. Since then the doomsday device has been nerfed hard and titans are currently mostly used for bridging fleets. They are powerful enough to be worth taking into combat but because of their high value, people mostly just keep them locked up instead.
It seems to me like a logical projection of the titan's logistical capability to allow it to act like a temporary station. It could also hold a jump bridge and be a way to setup a makeshift jump bridge network at higher cost when you don't have the time to set up a POS-based jump bridge network.
Maybe it could be all about putting your titan in danger can allow you to bypass the force projection limits somewhat. That will encourage people to put their titans out there and possibly lose them, instead of have them just sit around all day and not really get used.
A Caldari is just a Gallente who begged to have their civil liberties taken away.
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
82
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Posted - 2015.03.21 21:56:19 -
[27] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Titan - is a biggest destructive weapon in game. Let it stay as is but taking into the mind coming changes it is require to fit htat weapon into new meta frames. I can't help but feel like the reason it was made into a destructive platform originally was simply because CCP did not currently have any actual plans for its use. Since then the doomsday device has been nerfed hard and titans are currently mostly used for bridging fleets. They are powerful enough to be worth taking into combat but because of their high value, people mostly just keep them locked up instead. It seems to me like a logical projection of the titan's logistical capability to allow it to act like a temporary station. It could also hold a jump bridge and be a way to setup a makeshift jump bridge network at higher cost when you don't have the time to set up a POS-based jump bridge network. Maybe it could be all about putting your titan in danger can allow you to bypass the force projection limits somewhat. That will encourage people to put their titans out there and possibly lose them, instead of have them just sit around all day and not really get used.
That's exactly the case. For me it's sounds really strange to use multi-billion asset for bridging and semi-pos role. Not worth untill titans lose at least half of their price.
And i'm not sure where is the biggest problem is or what's wrong with Titans or pilots who own them and do nothing other than bridging and keep them at the safe spot fow week and months. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2390
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Posted - 2015.03.21 22:27:54 -
[28] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:And i'm not sure where is the biggest problem is or what's wrong with Titans or pilots who own them and do nothing other than bridging and keep them at the safe spot fow week and months. There's not much they can do with them. People don't want to bother supporting a titan on the field and trying to defend it when it's so much easier to just bring in a small dreadnought group and get a lot more net DPS.
Maybe titans are too expensive, but it's pretty certain that they don't have enough functionality to justify their value.
A Caldari is just a Gallente who begged to have their civil liberties taken away.
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Lienzo
Amanuensis
53
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Posted - 2015.03.21 23:01:54 -
[29] - Quote
There is a lot to find troublesome about both titans and stations. From CCP's perspective, they are both just containers or database tables with vexing rulesets.
From the players' perspective, we should concern ourselves with roles, and how they help us. We can thus analyze any object into subcomponents based on the various roles they perform. f.ex., for most people a station is just a place to hold infinite stuff and go afk between timers.
Titan pilots aren't going to want random spies docked inside of them, and able to undock at any inconvenient moment, which is most of the time.
If we want capital ships to be a kind of fleet anchor, then we need better ways to get fleets to capitals, rather than away from them. That might mean a new concept of cynosural fields, one that doesn't create a bridge to somewhere else, but is more of a "come to me little ducklings" sort of mechanism.
Looking at the current system, it's clear that CCP wanted capital ships to have lots of their tenders clearing the path for them, and then landing on their objectives. However, I don't think they foresaw player's annoyance with hotdropping, or that supers would mainly focus on structures. I think this approach would work well for more complex environments, such as very deep deepspace environments where cynoes are enabled. So in such a case, fast subcaps could go deeply into those sites, assuming there was something of value or significance there, and then bring in the capitals.
A different focus puts the capital ship as determining where the fight is. Under that model, we want capitals to be able to bring ships with them as well as have a reason for being there. That might mean opening something like a wormhole that is effectively a two way portal that even neutrals could use.
Now that we have jump fatigue as a mechanism, it isn't so unreasonable that every ship could be able to move to a friendly cyno beacon. We're a bit spoiled on disposable cyno alts, but we also don't want to give up valuable capital ship slots for support modules. Perhaps it could be rolled into another module, such as the seige module, or something involved with a capital version of entosis.
The ability to move an entire piloted ship to itself is more useful than a clone vat, especially in a flagship role. What we want from stations is fast formup times for fleets. If caps will no longer have a structure centric role, then treat hull classes like part of a more general ecology. Let supers have friendly cap ships cyno directly to them, and cap ships have battleships cyno to them, and battleships have anything up to battlecruisers warp to them, etc. If supers can't jump directly to anything, then they'll just have to be lonely at the top.
This will sort of work in the new constellation context, since ships will need to move around, and not just by gates. By spreading out capital assets, the mobility of fleets will be enhanced, while the fatigue mechanics will enforce discipline. This action is a risk assessment.
Having larger ships sport more fleet hangars is not a bad idea. However, they have to serve some clear purpose. I think we should reverse the ammo and magazine volume reduction changes. DSTs have adequate buffer to make themselves fleet viable, but they'd probably need some kind of direct role like sporting energy transporters, warfare links, or probing equipment. If we started looking at subcaps and wanted to engage in a new form of force projection, we would make more modules require charges. Entosis modules would be a good example of a module that needs to use specialized charges. It would keep an interceptor quite close to home if afterburners and mwds used charges just as a saar does. Warp disrupt probes are also a good candidate for a volume increase. There isn't a whole lot of cargo space difference between frigates and cruisers, so it would be advantageous to stretch these differences even as we create small form factor fleet hangars for every hull class heavier than a destroyer. Stealth bombers already have strong logistical need for additional bombs, especially if they aim to have flexibility in loadouts. Perhaps some of the recons could get a specialized fleet hangar in this regards, aimed mainly at hosting bombs.
Under that model, it would need to be easy for a cruiser to support the logistical needs of a squad of frigates, but not for ships of its own class for a long duration excursion. Likewise, a carrier should easily support the needs a squadron of battleships. If necessary, we could focus on the logistics class ships, like bantams and scimitars. They will also need extended access range, reasonably a minimum of ten kilometers.
Ships could still operate in a solo capacity so long as they are close to a base of operations, if true soloists can even be said to exist these days.
If titans are supported by supercarriers, and thus lacking in easy support from something larger that isn't a structure, then we just have to look at making more of the modules require charges. The lack of easy obliges them to rely on a more vulnerable logistics chain away from home space. It's a pity that most of those that do use supplies use ice ions, but we can't do much about that travesty. What would could look at at are charges for capital repair modules. That has the added benefits of interruptions in repair chains. Ideally, they should included low level moon mins in their build costs. In the new proposed ecology of structures, it would be nice if they could only be rearmed at a structure, but that is veering off the subject of intertwining capitals and logistics. Other abilities could be derived from existing ship abilities. For example, super cap ewar immunity could be vested in a module which itself uses charges. Perhaps fighters and bombers could need to be supplied with their own exhaustible resources or munitions. |
Janeway84
Def Squadron Pride Before Fall
152
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Posted - 2015.03.24 12:34:04 -
[30] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Janeway84 wrote:they loose their pods ofc! It will be awesome! And what happens when it or they log off?
They login and find themselves in a random class wormhole in their rookie ship with a t1 cloak and t1 probe launcher? J/k I dunno maybe they can have ejected in a random ship that was inside the cap? Or just be in their pod or wake up in station? Ship destruction is a pretty common thing to happen in eve.. |
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