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Brother Todd
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Posted - 2006.10.20 23:07:00 -
[1]
A few minutes ago I almost got ganked by a blob of "pirates" (using a log-in trap even) and I couldn't help but wonder why anybody would play the game this way, is it really fun ganking a solo ship with 10+ BS for the crappy loot? I don't think so, it's griefplay but with a sad twist - killboard stat-padding.
It's been on my mind for ages, the asshattery that killmails bring with them. While we all love to get a nice killmail after a rewarding fight some people have turned those little packets of joy into horrible E-peen contests. Griefplay shouldn't be encouraged in any way (neither should E-peen contests) and I really think it's time to stop the killmails. The only reward you should need for a kill is the thrill of the fight.
Well, there really isn't much more to say ... the title really speaks for itself. Now discuss!
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.20 23:10:00 -
[2]
Although I may agree that killmails don't really have much point other than bragging rights, how do you know that those people just killed you for a killmail? Maybe you were in their space?
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DefJam101
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Posted - 2006.10.20 23:10:00 -
[3]
No, it's not fun, but that doesn't make it any less fair.
See, you can gank ships and stuff like Ginger Magician, but you can't brag about it, that's where he crosses the line into immaturity.
No such thing as greifplay, unless you are watching your sec you should not discriminate targets.
However, the willingness to kill ships that stand no chance of victory yet running when the chance of defeat is present isn't any less cowardly and immature...
...although you probably could've just done a barrel roll.
***
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.20 23:14:00 -
[4]
Log in traps are dirty and, in my opion, border dangerously close on an exploit.
Still, that aside, something should be pointed out- PvPing, in EVE, is not griefing. In other games, which enforce consentual PvP only, "griefing" is the term applied to people forcing people into PvP against their will, thus ruining their gameplay experience. EVE, however, is based on non-consnsual PvP- in no circumstances is PvP considered griefing. Ore theft is not griefing, pirates who roam low sec are not griefers, even High-Sec gankers are considered by CCP to be using an excepted tactic.
In fact, the only things I think have been legitimately accepted as griefing are things like bumping people in Empire for no reason, just to stop them warping. In other words, pointless harrasment.
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Brother Todd
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Posted - 2006.10.20 23:16:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Eilie
Although I may agree that killmails don't really have much point other than bragging rights, how do you know that those people just killed you for a killmail? Maybe you were in their space?
Well they didn't actually kill me, I managed to escape. And I don't think a solo cruiser is any threat in a 0.4 system drone complex... also they were all -10ish, those types tend not to have space to defend.
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Tarkan Kador
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.10.20 23:35:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Patch86
Still, that aside, something should be pointed out- PvPing, in EVE, is not griefing.
I agree. PvPing is not griefing. But posting killmails is a different matter than PvPing. One is playing the game, while the other is gloating outside of the game.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.21 00:08:00 -
[7]
Killmails are performance measures.
---------
Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind.
Pax Caldaria. |
loony thezoon
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Posted - 2006.10.21 00:15:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Killmails are performance measures.
OOH ER madam
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Tarkan Kador
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.10.21 00:24:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Killmails are performance measures.
Since when is n00b x's performance Tranquility's business?
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Calderio
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.21 00:33:00 -
[10]
you sir do not have the will of the warrior.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Listen to me on bob radio 00:00 eve time every friday and saturday
http://stream1.bobonair.com:8000/listen-broadband.aac.m3u
[img]http://img147.echo.cx |
DefJam101
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Posted - 2006.10.21 00:33:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Brother Todd
Originally by: Eilie
Although I may agree that killmails don't really have much point other than bragging rights, how do you know that those people just killed you for a killmail? Maybe you were in their space?
Well they didn't actually kill me, I managed to escape. And I don't think a solo cruiser is any threat in a 0.4 system drone complex... also they were all -10ish, those types tend not to have space to defend.
It's not a threat, its a target, and yes, gatesnipers are cowards and insults to pirates.
Most of us don't support gatesnipers because gatesnipers are just people who are afraid to lose...
...although you probably could've just done a barrel roll.
***
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Tarkan Kador
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.10.21 00:36:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Calderio
you sir do not have the will of the warrior.
How can you tell?
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copymonster
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Posted - 2006.10.21 01:00:00 -
[13]
I'm almost a year old player and have just started getting into pvp. I find the killboards very useful as a performance measure. I can see exactly how many ships I am losing and how many I am killing. It's also something for friends to see and give you a pat on the back or a hug :) A confidence booster.
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Coran Ordus
Ominous Corp
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.21 01:09:00 -
[14]
Killmails prevent the "oo, we killed 5 BS" "no you didnt" "yes we did" nonsense. They are a compromise between no info, and a eve-wide killboard which would just encourage e-peening.
Gankings happen. You were blown up because people like blowing things up. Or they want to control the complex. Or you might have been a scout. Or they just felt like it. Or they want to make a name for themselves. It was not griefing.
The "dont shoot me, I am no threat" approach does not work. It will not keep you safe. Whining about it wont help either. |
Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.21 01:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tarkan Kador
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Killmails are performance measures.
Since when is n00b x's performance Tranquility's business?
It shows e.g. your alliance that you or your corp is partitipating in alliance pvp or what has been killed and lost by the alliance. So agree to Jenny, because it's used that way in our alliance and many others.
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Pestillence
Chav-Scum
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Posted - 2006.10.21 01:59:00 -
[16]
A 10 bs login trap for a 3 month old noob corp player?
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Brother Todd
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Posted - 2006.10.21 02:01:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Coran Ordus
Killmails prevent the "oo, we killed 5 BS" "no you didnt" "yes we did" nonsense. They are a compromise between no info, and a eve-wide killboard which would just encourage e-peening.
Gankings happen. You were blown up because people like blowing things up. Or they want to control the complex. Or you might have been a scout. Or they just felt like it. Or they want to make a name for themselves. It was not griefing.
The "dont shoot me, I am no threat" approach does not work. It will not keep you safe. Whining about it wont help either.
First of all the "oo, we killed 5 BS" "no you didnt" "yes we did" nonsense is just that - nonesense. Why would anybody care for these arguements?
I was not blown up btw, read the post...
Quote:
The "dont shoot me, I am no threat" approach does not work. It will not keep you safe. Whining about it wont help either.
I never asked to be safe. I don't mind real pirates and I accept the risks of lowsec. The point is that there is a huge group of players that tend to blob any target for the sole reason of killboard padding. There is no ingame point to these ganks, they are RL e-peen contests and nobody needs them.
I might add that I wasn't whining about anything. I will say this though: you suck, read the post if you're going to reply... you suck.
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Tarkan Kador
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.10.21 02:11:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Plutoinum
It shows e.g. your alliance that you or your corp is partitipating in alliance pvp or what has been killed and lost by the alliance. So agree to Jenny, because it's used that way in our alliance and many others.
You don't need killboards for that though. The killmails will give you all the data you need.
If people want to use the killmails as a personal record, or as part of a corporation record, then I guess they can be used that way. You don't need to put up a killboard for that though.
The reason people put up killboards is because they want the information to be public and permanent.
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DefJam101
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Posted - 2006.10.21 02:24:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tarkan Kador
Originally by: Calderio
you sir do not have the will of the warrior.
How can you tell?
Because a true "warrior" sees not his accomplishments, nor the accomplishments of others, but only the journey and the fight it took to achieve them.
Or something like that.
...although you probably could've just done a barrel roll.
***
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Jallen
Sturmgrenadier Inc
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.10.21 02:31:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tarkan Kador
The reason people put up killboards is because they want the information to be public and permanent.
That's a very generalized statement. We (my corp) don't have our killboard publically available.
We use it for measuring pvp participation, and determining any awards (ribbons for our internal forums) that a member may have earned during a particular campaign. |
Artthana
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.21 02:36:00 -
[21]
Newb question here.
What is a log on trap?
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Khetchi
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Posted - 2006.10.21 02:42:00 -
[22]
You go to Lowsec space you take your chances.
Space with a securityrating of 0.4 and below is designed and set aside as PVP space. If you don't want people shooting at you, don't go there.
I don't care if 20 dreadnaughts, 30 battleships, 40 cruisers, and 50 frigates all fired on your cruiser at the same time, it's not griefing because this is what lowsec space is for. Now if they had done this in 1.0 space then you'd have a convincing arguement.
If you think you need to get even with them, write down their names and put a 50mil bounty on each of them... there are several corps that do nothing else except roam lowsec space collecting bounties...
But then we'd probably end up having them on the forums complaining about how bounties are "griefing" and trying to get that feature removed.
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Felysta Sandorn
Caldari
Murder of Crows
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Posted - 2006.10.21 02:44:00 -
[23]
A wise man once said to me "Don't fly a ship you can't afford to lose!"... If you lose a ship, no matter what the tactic, get over it and move on. If you just lost your 4bil navy raven with faction fittings that took you two years to get, it's no-one's fault but your own for flying it.
I've been part of every dirty pirate trick in the book, log in traps are one of the few ways you can catch people that run 4 accounts at the same time and do complexs with them all...
I don't know what ship you lost, but if it was all crappy loot as you say, then your insurance will cover the loss.
If you don't like to PvP, stay out of PvP areas, it's as simple as that. We killed a scorp pilot last night, who followed us around 10-15 jumps smack talking in local that he hates pirates. Fine, don't come in to our home system again!
_________________________________________________________
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F'nog
Amarr
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.21 05:44:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Calderio
you sir do not have the will of the warrior.
You quoted me! Good on you.
Originally by: DB Preacher
The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when backdoor bandit is in local.
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Samirol
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2006.10.21 05:51:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Khetchi
You go to Lowsec space you take your chances.
Space with a securityrating of 0.4 and below is designed and set aside as PVP space. If you don't want people shooting at you, don't go there.
I don't care if 20 dreadnaughts, 30 battleships, 40 cruisers, and 50 frigates all fired on your cruiser at the same time, it's not griefing because this is what lowsec space is for. Now if they had done this in 1.0 space then you'd have a convincing arguement.
If you think you need to get even with them, write down their names and put a 50mil bounty on each of them... there are several corps that do nothing else except roam lowsec space collecting bounties...
But then we'd probably end up having them on the forums complaining about how bounties are "griefing" and trying to get that feature removed.
as soon as you undock, you should expect to get shot. Thats the way eve is.
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Gone'Postal
Minmatar
LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2006.10.21 08:42:00 -
[26]
People hurt people, only the law stops us doing that in Real life (in most cases). Low-sec and 0.0 have been compaired to the Wild rest, however, even in the old west Honor was there. there is no honor in eve just chest beating. 10M SP or 1M SP makes no diffrence. they think they own that space, they defend it like there home, Would you do the same ?
--------------------
SoonÖ Copyright CCP.
90% of what I post is NOT to be takin in any serious way. |
Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers
Blood of the Innocents
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Posted - 2006.10.21 08:46:00 -
[27]
Killboards, aside from being performance yardsticks, are also highly useful tools for distributing replacement ships/modules from alliance funds to the pilots who deserve them.
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- Office Linebacker -
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.21 08:46:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Brother Todd
A few minutes ago I almost got ganked by a blob of "pirates" (using a log-in trap even) and I couldn't help but wonder why anybody would play the game this way, is it really fun ganking a solo ship with 10+ BS for the crappy loot? I don't think so, it's griefplay but with a sad twist - killboard stat-padding.
It's been on my mind for ages, the asshattery that killmails bring with them. While we all love to get a nice killmail after a rewarding fight some people have turned those little packets of joy into horrible E-peen contests. Griefplay shouldn't be encouraged in any way (neither should E-peen contests) and I really think it's time to stop the killmails. The only reward you should need for a kill is the thrill of the fight.
Well, there really isn't much more to say ... the title really speaks for itself. Now discuss!
You're actually wrong. Griefplay should be encouraged, because thats what war is like. Its not duels. I understand it feels unfair and annoying, but those players get their fun from doing it. Eve is a sandbox and everybody can do what they want really. Its the freedom that is unique for Eve. You dont have that in any other game out there. So you will see both the worst and the best sides of people here.
Just play the game and dont judge others for their playstyle. And while you are at it, dont judge people at all... :)
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jouno
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.10.21 09:04:00 -
[29]
You know some people in this game actually like killing other people just for fun, thats what the killboards are for really to see who was the killing machine of the month so he can get his well deserved bragging rights 
On a side note tho eve is a pvp game, noone forced you to undock and travel through low sec.... next time bring along some friends and give those pirates a run for their money instaed of just whining on the forums 
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Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
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Posted - 2006.10.21 09:08:00 -
[30]
You were ganked. It happens to hundreds of people every day. The reason for it? Boosting killboard stats, lack of another gang to fight, the sheer hell of it, and fat loot. You need to remember that the only time they know if you have good loot or not is after they've killed you.
And was it definately a login trap? Did you see them all come online at the same time or did they just jump into the system when you weren't paying attention?
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Roshan longshot
Gallente
Order of the Arrow
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Posted - 2006.10.21 09:34:00 -
[31]
You all know that any decent person with the keyboard can edit and change a kill mail right? So now we are back to "Oh we killed 5 BS" "No your did'nt" crap.
So that alone is a good reason not to have a kill board. Besides the already stated reasons (E-peen being the biggest).
Eve is the only game out that allows you to play it your way with very limeted restrictions (Empire space).
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box.
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Elliot Reid
Gallente
Digital Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.21 09:34:00 -
[32]
My loss last night to a 13 man bubbled gatecamp. It's part of the game and I just accept it. I know that was .0 where the rules are somewhat different to low sec, but the first ship I lost in PvP was a Thorax in a .2 system when, I, for 1 second got complacent and didn't check local.
Low sec and .0 are risky area's with, for the most part, better rewards than high sec.
As for the login trap I've never experienced one and am not really sure how they work so I can't comment on them.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.21 10:44:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Tarkan Kador
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Killmails are performance measures.
Since when is n00b x's performance Tranquility's business?
I SAID
performance measures
NOT
performance enhancers.
---------
Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind.
Pax Caldaria. |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.21 10:57:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Artthana
Newb question here.
What is a log on trap?
A login trap is where a gang of people go into a system, usually by a gate, and all except one of them log off. They remain in contact out-of-game through Team Speak or other external communication. As soon as a victim comes through the gate, the sole online pilot tackles him while the rest of the gang login, magically appearing in space right on top of the victim. It enables gangs of people to ambush characters while remaining completely (and freely) invisible to all in game methods of detection.
This is considered extremely lame, majorly dirty and dishonourable, and extremely close to an exploit.
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Miss Overlord
Gallente
EUROPEANS
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Posted - 2006.10.21 11:09:00 -
[35]
and its legal
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.21 11:13:00 -
[36]
Indeed- close to an exploit, but not actually an exploit.
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Miss Overlord
Gallente
EUROPEANS
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Posted - 2006.10.21 11:14:00 -
[37]
when is an exploit not an exploit when the devs confirm its lame but its legal.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.10.21 11:27:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 21/10/2006 11:31:11
Originally by: Jim McGregor
You're actually wrong. Griefplay should be encouraged, because thats what war is like. Its not duels. I understand it feels unfair and annoying, but those players get their fun from doing it. Eve is a sandbox and everybody can do what they want really. Its the freedom that is unique for Eve. You dont have that in any other game out there. So you will see both the worst and the best sides of people here.
Just play the game and dont judge others for their playstyle. And while you are at it, dont judge people at all... :)
Sorry but this is not war. In war you can't get safe disconnecting or changing to an alt.
As long as the aggressor has the advantage of making himself invulnerable to retaliation simply going offline there is an huge advantage for the griefer.
Every war commander would love to be capable of chosing the time for an attack whitout risk for his troops before or after the aaction.
I am not speaking about the action of the immediate target, but the possibility to disappear into nothingness before a counteroffensive can be mounted.
Returning to the starting question: I don't get what a blast some player get for killing a noob frigate with a BS. Again, I am not speaking about defending territory and even killing possible spyes (even if I feel paranoya run rampant there), but the ones gatecamping systems and killing everyting that pass throught, going even to the poin of using every dirty trick, like spamming containers to increse lag for the ones jumping in system.
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Miss Overlord
Gallente
EUROPEANS
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Posted - 2006.10.21 11:31:00 -
[39]
i hear there are some setups now that can tank sentry guns (this needs to change perhaps by making their damage output go up on a 60 second basis) so for those camping at 240km and tanking the damage if they hang around for 5 minutes they are going to have to take more dmg (this offsets some of the recent setups that bsaically allow u to sit there endlessly with the main deterrent sentry guns doing squat)
This is the only weakness i see and having camped myself using the above i do think from a balance point of view it should be changed
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Alejandro Zapata
Minmatar
PAK
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Posted - 2006.10.21 11:39:00 -
[40]
Too be totally honest, a blob isn't going to blob just to get kill mails. Only one of the blob actually gets a kill mail, so probably not alot of padding going on. Why share with others when you can go and get your own.
They blob for protection, if they wanted uber kill mails they would sit on a gate and gank everything that came through alone or in small groups. Still relatively safe and more kill mailage.
I don't agree that they are a measure of performance though, because they are not. If ego boosting is not an issue, make the respective kill boards private to members of the group that needs performance tracking, such as an alliance or a corp private kill board.
Is it really a case in which kill mails should be altered or amended? Not a chance.
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Icarus Starkiller
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Posted - 2006.10.21 11:40:00 -
[41]
Just make an in-game killboard and be done. Kills & losses are automatically entered and anyone inside the players' corp or alliance can view a detailed brakedown of a player's kills at their liesure.
People not in the corp or alliance (or with insufficient rights within a corp/alliance) will only see basic data such as ship killed, final blow, and others on the kill. No ship or weapon data will be provided on the public access levels.
A feature in a person's standings screen should let them allow others (either a person, corp, or alliance) to view their closed access data... but this can be recinded just as easily. Heck, let this same feature allow others to view a player's skill details as well (a lot easier than trying to piece together screenshots). It'll make a recruiter's job a lot easier.
-
ISK Pharmers & Alt spies: A solution
Life is pain...anyone who says differently is selling something. |
arutha
Infinite Improbability Inc
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.21 11:43:00 -
[42]
killmails are great for measuring your performance in your gang , your corp and your alliance . you get a warm fuzzy feeling when you look at your alliance kilboard and see your top in your corp .or for the best ,there aliance , it gives you something to aspire to when a guy is way in front and makes the game interesting and fun for many to play .
sorry eve if is very competive wether you combat or industrilise . its what the game is based on ,compition , its not fluffy like sims online . either get with the eve experiance , accept the cauldron off compitition and enjoy or look elsewhere for your entertainment . eve can be a harsh mistress but frankly thats what makes her unique and fun to play .
enjoy the dark realitey off what eve is or go find a lighter more social game if thats the right word like wow or everquest 2 .
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Brother Todd
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Posted - 2006.10.21 12:02:00 -
[43]
I love how many of you have told me to get over my loss. I did not lose anything, I never said I did. Stop replying with pre-written answers and read the post. But anyway, the thread has been derailed to oblivion... lock?
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.21 12:30:00 -
[44]
I actually like Killboards. When I kill something (and, lets face it, it deosn't happen all that often ) I feel quite proud. When I stick it on our Corps fairly small killboard, people say things like "hey, nice kill!" or "congrats mate!". It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy 
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