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Kidd Billups Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.22 18:33:00 - [1] Edited by: Kidd Billups on 22/10/2006 18:36:54 Edited by: Kidd Billups on 22/10/2006 18:34:01 I've over looked this bonus until now. I've just started to realize how pointless this bonus is... I'm not one of those people who are complaining right and left about how Amarr should get all these bonuses. However, I do believe that these are the most pointless bonuses in the game. Why not just make energy turrets use less cap and give the Zealot, Apoc, Retribution, Geddon, Sacrilege, Proph, etc. a more useful bonus to make up for the lack of Damage type choice? Also, look at the bonuses that the other races in the same ship classes get. Mostly all of them get good use out of their bonuses
Soren Eisarson	Posted - 2006.10.22 18:37:00 - [2] Ok, then you have to give gallente something for our 'lack' of damage choice. The energy usage is what makes energy turrets unique, other wise they would just be hybrids with different ammo.
Kidd Billups Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.22 18:39:00 - [3] Edited by: Kidd Billups on 22/10/2006 18:40:02 Originally by: Soren Eisarson Ok, then you have to give gallente something for our 'lack' of damage choice. The energy usage is what makes energy turrets unique, other wise they would just be hybrids with different ammo. Gallente doesnt have a lack of damage type. You guys have kinetic and thermal damage (more useful than EM) and a good amount of drone ships which allow you to chose any damage type youd like. The energy usage isnt "unique", its a disadvatage.
Makaera Koshito Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.22 18:43:00 - [4] Eh, have you actually looked at any Caldari railboat bonuses? One bonus is for longer distance shooting, to apparently stay out of the firefight, but the other is for up close fighting. Maybe except when I use Null M with a Blaster Moa, do I actually get to use both bonuses, but that's very rare.
Kidd Billups Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.22 18:44:00 - [5] I'd much rather have an optimal range bonus than a cap use bonus
Makaera Koshito Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.22 18:45:00 - [6] And I'd much rather have a tracking bonus than a resistance bonus.
Dr Wahoos D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.10.22 18:52:00 - [7] signed
Yamaeda	Posted - 2006.10.22 18:53:00 - [8] The bonus itself is quite important, lasers are cap hungry buggers. I'm doing some calculations on the subject and so far i haven't seen much of the proclaimed "built in damage bonus", that's an issue though. Even with full ship skill damage/cap is bad, and that's a real issue. /Y
Kidd Billups Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.22 18:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Yamaeda The bonus itself is quite important, lasers are cap hungry buggers. I'm doing some calculations on the subject and so far i haven't seen much of the proclaimed "built in damage bonus", that's an issue though. Even with full ship skill damage/cap is bad, and that's a real issue. /Y I know the bonus is important, thats why i also suggested they just make energy turrets use less cap in the first place in my original thread.
Chee Minmatar hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.22 18:57:00 - [10] lasers are intended for amarr. this bonus is there to keep it like that. same goes for other races. you fit the races guns because only they give you best performance from that ship. this should stay imo. I know people use projectiles on amarr ships but thats just because amarr are currently lacking and as such not an excuse for this change. The buff amarr needs should not come by changing their intended weapon system but rather a change in other factors. (eanm/dmg/tracking/range)
goodby4u	Posted - 2006.10.22 20:46:00 - [11] Well,its a good idea,but the problem is that would make amarr somewhat overpowered,they can compete with the other ships right now,but think of them competing with the other ships with that one bonus,plus a lets say damage bonus,plus using less energy,plus the fact they use no ammo.... BTW,i fly amarr
Breed Love Minmatar Stormriders	Posted - 2006.10.22 20:54:00 - [12] another boost amarr thread? My opinion on the matter is... that your sig is too big, its gonna get nerfed! ------ Originally by: Gazon In any case, the whole affair had one lasting effect: Awarding Stormriders the label of ridiculous drug addicts with a tendency towards utterly foolish actions.
Paigan Amarr Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.22 20:57:00 - [13] The weapon design in eve is quite simple: Blasters / Rails have comparable low damage (with their other attributes / penalties in view). So every turret based gallente ship gets a damage bonus. Projectiles have good damage but bad RoF, so the get a rof bonus. Lasers have good damage but high energy use, so they get a cap use bonus. Forcing ships to use what they're planned for, killing possibility for creative fittings (apart from some exceptions, of course). That's why amarr ships have a cap use bonus fixed for their planned weapon type and won't get anything else. Meanwhile, i even tell myself to "adapt to it or leave the game" still deciding what to do... -- This game is still in beta stage
Benjamin Olson	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:38:00 - [14] Current situation: AMARR HAVE A BUILT IN DAMAGE BONUS Problem: Says who? As it stands even with the 'Built in Bonus' we would still need a 10% damage bonus to keep on par with other races. Then of course we lose a bonus to that. So right now the problem is we need 3 BONUSES to keep up with say Gallente. 1 for damage 1 for cap and 1 whatever they feel like. Were pretty much screwed. Train for Gallente/Caldari and its all good.
Szun Boob Heads Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 02:55:00 - [15] The cap reduction bonuses on amarr ships must be a remenent of the time when ppl put tachs on ravens ... In my eyes noone with half a brain would willingly put lasers on none laser ships today. As for the socalled build in dmg bonus..yea right same lvl faction setups on sleipnir 850 dps dmg 1200+ dps tank (for 3-4min) Absolution 850 dps dmg 650 dps tank (3-4 min) Astarte 1000 dps dmg ..not sure on tank ( got that number from setups posted, the other 2 i did with quickfit) all dmg are with faction dmg mods (3) (domi gyro , TS Heatsink etc) As for the projectiles have a bad rof..ever looked on 220mm t2 autocannons? I think they are 0.4 sec faster then hvy pulse and about same lvl as focused mediums. just look at the hac prices and you know what most ppl fly currently.. zealot 180mil, vaga 270, cerb 250 to name a few... my 2 cent
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.23 03:08:00 - [16] There is no way a Sleipnir pulls out 850 dps.
Gaylente Hunter	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:51:00 - [17] 850dps might be a little more than what it really is but never the less, Amarr doesnt have a "built in damage bonus." Lasers don't have the biggest damage mod and they deal the weakest damage type (EM). Even Caldari ships usually have something to make their EM stronger. And t2 Minmatar ships all have great EM/ Thermal Shield Resistances. On top of this, they have worse tracking then blasters and AC's. So i also find that lasers should use less cap to begin with and give laser boats a more useful bonus
inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:53:00 - [18] Originally by: Chee lasers are intended for amarr. this bonus is there to keep it like that. I hope you're not really suggesting another race is going to fit lasers, cap bonus or not. Because, I mean, rofl.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:59:00 - [19] Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: Chee lasers are intended for amarr. this bonus is there to keep it like that. I hope you're not really suggesting another race is going to fit lasers, cap bonus or not. Because, I mean, rofl. Lol, after you guys have finsihed giving them the damage of a Blaster, range of a mega pulse, cap use of hybrid, no ammo (with instant all-range combat, that that entales) better tracking and a choice of all damage types, why wouldn't they?! -----------------------------------------------
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:15:00 - [20] Laser damage is not that great, even before considering eanm2s laser cap use makes sure amarr tanks are not as good as other races. and we have the gank and tank race that can do neither. Im fine with lasers using alot of cap....and im fine with ships having a cap bonus....if lasers did damage to justify not only their very high cap use, but also their very high fitting reqs. Fitting proj on the apoc does more than save you cap....alot more. simply reducing thier cap use is boring...makes lasers like other weapons. have them have their flavor....brute force and ignorance weapons. Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
Blind Man Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:32:00 - [21] Originally by: Tasty Burger There is no way a Sleipnir pulls out 850 dps. nope, try about half of that
Denrace Amarr Psykotic Dreams	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:08:00 - [22] Originally by: Blind Man Originally by: Tasty Burger There is no way a Sleipnir pulls out 850 dps. nope, try about half of that Still, the CBC I would LEAST like to fight would always be a Sleipnir. ________________________________________
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:10:00 - [23] Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: Chee lasers are intended for amarr. this bonus is there to keep it like that. I hope you're not really suggesting another race is going to fit lasers, cap bonus or not. Because, I mean, rofl. Ever noticed how ishtars fit small lasers? Or dominix with medium lasers? Lasers already have a built in 25% damagemod. Sure, you can have your lasers work like all other guns. 50% of the cap use and 20% less damagemod... and ship bonus changed from -50% cap use to +25% damage. But you end up with exactly the same stats, doh. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:13:00 - [24] Originally by: dalman Ever noticed how ishtars fit small lasers? Or dominix with medium lasers? Lasers already have a built in 25% damagemod. That's getting no more comment than...
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:15:00 - [25] Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: dalman Ever noticed how ishtars fit small lasers? Or dominix with medium lasers? Lasers already have a built in 25% damagemod. That's getting no more comment than... It's not my fault you're being a clown instead of looking at facts. Compare a mega beam vs a 425mm rail. Or heavy beam vs 250mm rail. And notice how the laser does almost exactly 25% more dps. Hence, ships without enough grid to fit the "right size" of weapons (= domi and ishtar) usually fit lasers if the pilot has high enough skills in that. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Denrace Amarr Psykotic Dreams	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:19:00 - [26] Originally by: dalman Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: dalman Ever noticed how ishtars fit small lasers? Or dominix with medium lasers? Lasers already have a built in 25% damagemod. That's getting no more comment than... It's not my fault you're being a clown instead of looking at facts. Compare a mega beam vs a 425mm rail. Or heavy beam vs 250mm rail. And notice how the laser does almost exactly 25% more dps. Hence, ships without enough grid to fit the "right size" of weapons (= domi and ishtar) usually fit lasers if the pilot has high enough skills in that. Shame they rarely hit for over 40 damage versus most things. ________________________________________
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:20:00 - [27] Originally by: dalman Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: dalman Ever noticed how ishtars fit small lasers? Or dominix with medium lasers? Lasers already have a built in 25% damagemod. That's getting no more comment than... It's not my fault you're being a clown instead of looking at facts. Compare a mega beam vs a 425mm rail. Or heavy beam vs 250mm rail. And notice how the laser does almost exactly 25% more dps. Hence, ships without enough grid to fit the "right size" of weapons (= domi and ishtar) usually fit lasers if the pilot has high enough skills in that. Those ships would be better off fitting projectiles. Less fitting reqs, and better damage types... but seriosuly, the only ships that can fit small beams (medium beam 2s) are cruisers and up anyway. Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:25:00 - [28] Edited by: inSpirAcy on 23/10/2006 23:25:14 Originally by: dalman It's not my fault you're being a clown instead of looking at facts. If you can't see why what you said makes no sense, I have no obligation to explain it. Everyone else already knows and is laughing with me. But I'll give you a hint, find me an Ishtar pilot with lasers in his high slots and I'll personally smack him about the head with them. (that's leaving aside your absolutely broken 25% damage modifier argument, some silly myth that's been floating around EVE since... well, since ever)
inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:48:00 - [29] Originally by: dalman Show me that the lasers doesn't do almost exactly 25% more dps instead. k? It's already done, read above you. Originally by: dalman But then again, it's much easier to go with the bandwagon of whining instead of doing the math and figure out your best possible fitting. Unfortunately for you I did the math long ago to debunk this silly myth. Your attempts to sound cool and knowledgable by continuing to propagate said myth are flawed at best, but trying to imply you've done math to prove it just serves to ridicule you further. I'll leave your beliefs that Ishtar pilots are flying around with lasers for others to laugh at.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:52:00 - [30] Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: dalman Show me that the lasers doesn't do almost exactly 25% more dps instead. k? It's already done, read above you. No, cause you didn't only fail at math, but also at reading and understanding. Your graph is including a ship bonus. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:55:00 - [31] Originally by: dalman We're talking small guns. To which the ship has no bonus. What, this one? Ok, I think I've made my point. Now go create a new alt so you can live the embarassment of this one down.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:01:00 - [32] Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 00:04:03 Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: dalman We're talking small guns. To which the ship has no bonus. Make the graph with medium beam vs 150 rail, doh. What, this one? Ok, I think I've made my point. Now go create a new alt so you can live the embarassment of this one down. Convinient you picked pulse vs blaster when we're discussing beam vs rail. The first are not comparable due to range. The later are. And yes of course, I'll delete my ~55M SP char that's reknowned for it's PvP ability ingame and create a new char cause someone none has heard about ingame said so on the forums. Who's embarassing himself? Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:13:00 - [33] Originally by: dalman Sure, you can have your lasers work like all other guns. 50% of the cap use and 20% less damagemod... and ship bonus changed from -50% cap use to +25% damage. But you end up with exactly the same stats, doh. oh yes please can we have that. that would at least open some of our ships up to other more useful bonuses instead of the capuse (integrated dmg-mod) one. mainly our tankers (maller/punsiher/proph/apoc) could finally get rid of the blasted laser cap bonus and get another tank related bonus so that they could actually put both of their bonuses to use while doing what they are supposed to do best.
Nir	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:42:00 - [34] What really ****es me off in all of this is that Tuxford is willing to look at EANM's (which effects everybody, not just Amarr.) but with the stacking penalty still in effect Amarr is the race that can't fire its guns and keep a tank going at the same time. Gallente have cap issues too but they have the medslots for injectors and spare low for a CPR. Ironically Gallente have more usable lowslots than Amarr because we fill ours with 2-3 RCU II's. And now Tux wants to prolong combat? With ship HP skyrocketing Amarr is going to need more ammo (read: cap) to play with. I say if that 10% cap need bonus is staying, at least increase its value.
Jacob Holland Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:42:00 - [35] Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: dalman We're talking small guns. To which the ship has no bonus. What, this one? Ok, I think I've made my point. Now go create a new alt so you can live the embarassment of this one down. Interesting that unless you plan to orbit a three kilometers from your target (when tracking issues start to get painful) the laser does... Oh wait! Rather more than 25% more damage than the Blaster. If you set an approach and just sit there at 3m then yes, the Blaster is going to do more. But that's what Blasters do. At 5km your graph shows the Lasers doing more than 200% the DPS of the Blasters... Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 01:08:00 - [36] Edited by: Patch86 on 24/10/2006 01:09:00 Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: dalman We're talking small guns. To which the ship has no bonus. What, this one? Ok, I think I've made my point. Now go create a new alt so you can live the embarassment of this one down. You've made......a point, thats for sure. Tell me what I'm looking at. It looks to my untrained eye that the pulse laser does far better damage at all ranges except the blaster's optimal. Bearing in mind that its the GALLENTE who are meant to be the highest damge race, thats our race speciality, while AMARR have the high tank, blasters are meant to have the best damage in the game, just with borked range. Your graph shows its working perfectly- blasters do more damage at extreme close range, pulse lasers do better damage at.........all other ranges. This demonstrates lasers need a boost........how?! Quoted from the EVE-O Item Database: Originally by: Item Database Particle blasters operate on a similar principle as the railgun except they fire a magnetically contained ball of subatomic particles. No other turret class can match the sheer destructive power of particle blasters, but due to the rapid dispersion of the containment field, it also has the worst range of all turrets. Requires hybrid ammo types: antimatter, iridium, iron, lead, plutonium, thorium, tungsten, uranium. -----------------------------------------------
Blind Man Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.24 01:31:00 - [37] Edited by: Blind Man on 24/10/2006 01:32:29 keeping in mind that it is a lot easier to stay close range with blasters (0-2km) than it is to stay around 3-5km with pulse lasers (medium pulse have this problem the worst)
Dahak2150	Posted - 2006.10.24 01:57:00 - [38] Originally by: Patch86 Edited by: Patch86 on 24/10/2006 01:09:00 Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: dalman We're talking small guns. To which the ship has no bonus. What, this one? Ok, I think I've made my point. Now go create a new alt so you can live the embarassment of this one down. You've made......a point, thats for sure. Tell me what I'm looking at. It looks to my untrained eye that the pulse laser does far better damage at all ranges except the blaster's optimal. Bearing in mind that its the GALLENTE who are meant to be the highest damge race, thats our race speciality, while AMARR have the high tank, blasters are meant to have the best damage in the game, just with borked range. Your graph shows its working perfectly- blasters do more damage at extreme close range, pulse lasers do better damage at.........all other ranges. This demonstrates lasers need a boost........how?! Quoted from the EVE-O Item Database: Originally by: Item Database Particle blasters operate on a similar principle as the railgun except they fire a magnetically contained ball of subatomic particles. No other turret class can match the sheer destructive power of particle blasters, but due to the rapid dispersion of the containment field, it also has the worst range of all turrets. Requires hybrid ammo types: antimatter, iridium, iron, lead, plutonium, thorium, tungsten, uranium. If the item database was perfect we'd all be sitting in safespots using 'dictors to yank people out of warp in the middle of nowhere. ---------- My sig is boring.

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