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Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:42:00 - [91] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Jim McGregor Why are you only listing its disadvantages and not the advantages such as speed and agility? You can do better than that... Speed and agility? It's an immense 5m/s faster than the Megathron and the same mass. It will have to have truly insane agility to make up for all the other problems the ship has. I'd not mind the same agility as a Moros, actually. - What am I listening to?
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:43:00 - [92] TBH I'd like to see the Hyperion be a blaster ship, but barring that it could be a big Celestis: 5/8/5 slot layout, bonus to sensor damp efficiency and +7.5% missile launcher ROF. 4 missile hardpoints, 4 turret hardpoints, 175m3 drone bay. Would work quite well and you wouldn't have all of these balancing issues vis a vis the mega and it's role vs. the Hype and where it fits in. Barring that and actually making the Hype a blaster boat, what would make it different from the Mega is the guns. Right now a Mega's DPS is about 65% guns, 35% drones, when set up as a blaster ship. I say we design the Hyperion so that 85%+ of it's DPS is from it's blasters. Additionally the Hype needs to be able to do 15-20% MORE DPS than a blasterthron in order to distinguish itself from the Blasterthron. This means a total DPS of 1500+, all while still maintaining at LEAST as good a tank as the Mega. Right now the Hype has the same grid and less CPU than the Mega does!!! WTF is that?! How are we supposed to fit another whole turret on the ship along with everything else that's required (MWD, heavy cap booster, dual rep tank...) with less CPU/Grid? So anyway, the point is that if the Mega can fit a full rack of ions and a dual rep tank, the Hype should be able to fit 8x neutrons and a dual rep tank, and push 1500+ dps while doing it. Then it would have a clear reason for existing over and above the mega for it's particular job. Because I said so...
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:44:00 - [93] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Jim McGregor Why are you only listing its disadvantages and not the advantages such as speed and agility? You can do better than that... Because I'm NOT discussing it's stats. I'm discussing it's role - and how it won't work unless it's changed. But since you wanted the dead dog in the house. Speed advantage is insignificant, agility advantage is non-existant, damage advantage is heavily reduced by blasters' inherent crappy tracking. Anything else? Surely its advantages are important if you want to discuss its role... so yeah, I want the dead dog in the house. :) And if speed and agility is worthless, then you should be arguing that the Tempest really sucks (which it does. ). Minmatar have been saying for along time that speed isnt very significant on the battleship level, and usually get the reply that "hey, look at the nanophoon!". So, how about a "hypoon"? :) Its like ive always said... people are fine with minmatar having crappy bonuses, but when they get one themselfs (repair amount bonus, speed, agility) they arent happy. Its very strange... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:48:00 - [94] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/10/2006 09:52:07 Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/10/2006 09:49:36 Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Jim McGregor Why are you only listing its disadvantages and not the advantages such as speed and agility? You can do better than that... Speed and agility? It's an immense 5m/s faster than the Megathron and the same mass. It will have to have truly insane agility to make up for all the other problems the ship has. You are actually right... the megathron only have 102.500 mass, just like the Hyperion. I thought it would have alot more, but I just checked. Then I can understand the complaints about the only minor speed and agility advantages. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jazz Bo Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:49:00 - [95] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Ithildin I'm contemplating. What has the Hyperion going for it over the Megathron? 1. It does less damage since it has smaller drone bay. 2. It does less damage with it's turrets since it's lacking a tracking bonus. 3. It has to fit smaller guns if it wants to make use of it's repair bonus. 4. The repair bonus isn't very useful. Indeed. Unless that hidden agility modifier makes the Hyperion handle like a cruiser I won't be leaving the Megathron for the Hyperion. Especially not with the advent of the new inertial stabilisers, which are awesome. Ditto. It really would need to be the Battleship equivalent of the Vagabond in terms of speed and agility. ... and you still couldn't kill a Blasterthron in it. So what do we have then? The Hyperion might be great for killing NPCrs with. Hooray. Quote: Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew... squishhh
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:50:00 - [96] Gallente T1 ship line is different from the other races in one thing. It's unique in that Gallente T1 ships do not have any missile ships, every other race has at least one T1 missile ship. Gallente really doesn't need (nor want) a missile ship. If you want a big Celestis, then you get a 5% turret damage bonus and 5t/3l slot layout on 8 high slots. But really, if the Hyperion was changed to something like this: High: 8 (8 turrets) Mid: 6 Low: 5 Bonus 1: +5% Turret damage Bonus 2: +5% Sensor dampener efficiency Powergrid: 14,500 CPU: 650 Velocity: 110 m/s Mass: 100,000,000 KG Cargo: 700m¦ Drone bay: 200m¦ This ship would not outdamage the Megathron, it would actually be ideal a low-grade railgun ship, where it's locking range advantage would serve best. (Please note the lower powergrid) - What am I listening to?
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:51:00 - [97] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/10/2006 09:49:36 Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Jim McGregor Why are you only listing its disadvantages and not the advantages such as speed and agility? You can do better than that... Speed and agility? It's an immense 5m/s faster than the Megathron and the same mass. It will have to have truly insane agility to make up for all the other problems the ship has. It doesnt have the same mass as the Megathron. It has 102.500, Tempest has 100.000. Megathron has alot more than both of them. Check stats again. Both Tempest and Megathron weigh 102.5MKG. - What am I listening to?
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:51:00 - [98] Edited by: Soulita on 25/10/2006 09:53:40 Originally by: Patch86 A thought occours; the Hype isn't on Sisi yet, right? All the other ships have been seeded, but not the Hype? Might that mean that it's not finished yet, and these stats might be a relic from an older attempt? Thats my impression after reading Hyperion stats. Anyways, even the stuff that is seeded on SiSi is still "soft". I am sure quite a few things will be tweaked on quite a few mods/ships even after seeding. PS.: anyways, good discussion going on here, very interesting read.
Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:52:00 - [99] It sounds more like an npc ship to me with it's repping bonus. Means instead of fitting 1 large and a med T2 repper (or faction) you can fit 1 large T2 and you have a mission ship!!! Tbh looks a bit like a poor mans Vindicator. ----------------------------------------------- Knowing all, when all is unknown.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:53:00 - [100] Originally by: Ithildin Check stats again. Both Tempest and Megathron weigh 102.5MKG. Yeah, I did... you are right. Very strange, since ive always felt megathron was slow and clumsy...its not that much worse off than a Tempest then. With all that firepower... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:55:00 - [101] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Jim McGregor Why are you only listing its disadvantages and not the advantages such as speed and agility? You can do better than that... Because I'm NOT discussing it's stats. I'm discussing it's role - and how it won't work unless it's changed. But since you wanted the dead dog in the house. Speed advantage is insignificant, agility advantage is non-existant, damage advantage is heavily reduced by blasters' inherent crappy tracking. Anything else? Surely its advantages are important if you want to discuss its role... so yeah, I want the dead dog in the house. :) And if speed and agility is worthless, then you should be arguing that the Tempest really sucks (which it does. ). Minmatar have been saying for along time that speed isnt very significant on the battleship level, and usually get the reply that "hey, look at the nanophoon!". So, how about a "hypoon"? :) Its like ive always said... people are fine with minmatar having crappy bonuses, but when they get one themselfs (repair amount bonus, speed, agility) they arent happy. Its very strange... largly beyond the cruiser level speed/agility are completely worthles, and particularly as the focus of a ships design when it's a battleship. Does the Tempest's 'agility' advantage suck? No. Why? Because it has two other bonuses and it's agility advantage isn't the primary focus. You don't make a BS 'agile' and then take away a whole bonus to justify the 'agility' advantage. When using BS sized guns, the best thing in the world is for both you and the target to sit completely still. Therefore once you're in optimal range, your agility bonus is completely useless for the rest of the fight. It's a non bonus. Make the ship super light if you want, that's fine, but don't count that as the actual bonus of the ship design, just make that another design feature that happens to contribute to making the ship a great blaster boat. It's as if people are bitter about all the other crap ass designs in the game and if the old sh1tty ones don't work, then we sure as f#ck can't have the new ones be any good either. Frankly it's annoying as hell. Because I said so...
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:59:00 - [102] Originally by: murder one largly beyond the cruiser level speed/agility are completely worthles, and particularly as the focus of a ships design when it's a battleship. Does the Tempest's 'agility' advantage suck? No. Why? Because it has two other bonuses and it's agility advantage isn't the primary focus. You don't make a BS 'agile' and then take away a whole bonus to justify the 'agility' advantage. I know, I fly minmatar. Trying to stay away from battleships though... Im not sure that they have taken away anything. They just did the same thing with the hyperion as with the maelstrom - removed one bonus from the tier 2 bs and gave it a semi-useful defensive boosting bonus instead. Minnies dont like the maelstrom and you guys dont like the hype for exacly the same reasons. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:59:00 - [103] Originally by: Jim McGregor Surely its advantages are important if you want to discuss its role... so yeah, I want the dead dog in the house. :) And if speed and agility is worthless, then you should be arguing that the Tempest really sucks (which it does. ). Minmatar have been saying for along time that speed isnt very significant on the battleship level, and usually get the reply that "hey, look at the nanophoon!". So, how about a "hypoon"? :) Its like ive always said... people are fine with minmatar having crappy bonuses, but when they get one themselfs (repair amount bonus, speed, agility) they arent happy. Its very strange... The thing is, a speed advantage is a significant advantage, especially on a blasterboat. We're just saying the Hyperion doesn't have one. It's 10m/s slower than the Tempest with the same mass as both the Tempest and the Megathron. Admittedly we haven't been able to judge the ship's agility properly yet as that stat doesn't show on the show info page, but it would have to be noticable better than Typhoon agility in order to even come close to making up for the rest of the ship. And just to be clear, I'm not happy with the Minmatar having crappy bonuses either. I'm just more familiar with the Gallente boats and their roles and feel more comfortable fighting their case. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:16:00 - [104] Guys you are kidding right? It has the same dmg bonus as the megathron and ontop a repairbons. Yeah not the best, but better than TRACKING for Blasters at least. Yeah call me noob, but iam flying my Blasterthron since 2003. One thing i know from expirience. If you cant web your target, you wont hit good or at all. So lets come together. We have there a webbed target, moving with 30 m/s max. We stand still at 2km or stay at range. At this situation your tracking wont do much for you, even when using T2 Void ammo, which has -50% tracking on top. Yes with NULL L ammo you will het slightly less good, but hey thats fine for the 8th gun i have now. which is an increase of ~12% in DPS. Than we have here over 1500 more cap to start with, an improved repping bonus, if i may choose to fit a tank or not, double the armor, structure and shields. Better agility on top of that. Sorry even with this stats the Hyperion will be supirior to the Megathron, when we look on BLASTERFITTINGS only. Ofc with Rails, the Hyperion will be useless, but hey thats a Blasterboat not a Railboat. You can now fit Electron/Ion II in HI¦s, std Megathronloadout in meds + 1 spare slot for EW and a decent tank in lowslots. 2 large T2 Reppairer will give you 1100 HP repaired each 11.25 sec. Thats 97 DPS tanked with one at lvl 5 BS or almost 200 DPS tanked with 2 LAR II, while still having ~700DPS from guns only and over 50% resist all on armor and hull. The hyperion with that stats will already be powerfull imo. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:20:00 - [105] You can't support 2 LAR and Ions, you know. And it's drones aren't near the Megathron's Bah, I'm moving to test server to test this piece of ****. Main concern remains: it's THE SAME ROLE as the Megathron. One of them must be worse. This is bad. Change it's role. - What am I listening to?
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:27:00 - [106] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Ithildin Check stats again. Both Tempest and Megathron weigh 102.5MKG. Yeah, I did... you are right. Very strange, since ive always felt megathron was slow and clumsy...its not that much worse off than a Tempest then. With all that firepower... Its down to Agility. Mass is not important. Its the Agility which counts. Tempest is much more agile.
babylonstew Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:33:00 - [107] well, i actually thought that armour hitpoints bonus mentioned earlier had some merit, as a passive tank bonus is usually better then an active cap requiring bunus. tbh, id think hab=ving a bigger hitpoint buffer would be the fight winner here rather then needing cap. same with the mini bs tbh. but hey, testing is needed me thinks Forum advice Linkage
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:38:00 - [108] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Ithildin Check stats again. Both Tempest and Megathron weigh 102.5MKG. Yeah, I did... you are right. Very strange, since ive always felt megathron was slow and clumsy...its not that much worse off than a Tempest then. With all that firepower... Its down to Agility. Mass is not important. Its the Agility which counts. Tempest is much more agile. Nope. Both Megathron and Tempest has agility factor 0.155. They are both as agile. - What am I listening to?
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:39:00 - [109] Originally by: Butter Dog Its down to Agility. Mass is not important. Its the Agility which counts. Tempest is much more agile. You keep saying this, and you keep being wrong. both are important. Mass is the limiting factor on your maximum speed boost when using MWD/AB and is also a limiting factor on acceleration. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:53:00 - [110] first impressions of using hyperion on test server... well its a megathron graphic, aside from that nice CPU, makes the ship fitting easy enough (with electron II's) Agility is OKAY... not amazing, was hoping for more tbh TANKING BONUS IS AMAZING.... this is seriously under-rated as a bonus and will make the hyperion the king of small gang, close range combat... 1550 rep on a core-x repper, thank you very much :)
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:55:00 - [111] So the hyp's bonus is now a tank bonus instead of mwd?
Miss KillSome	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:56:00 - [112] Edited by: Miss KillSome on 25/10/2006 10:57:13 apart from rep bonus, i dont see point in Hyp..megathron is still better.. jamming is gonna be nerfed, so that one extra mid slot in expense for low (armor tanking) slot = kick in the dark. It is suppose to be blaster boat, why cant we fit neutrons on it? And beeing close range boat, top speed doesnt fit in that role and its mass is like Tempest's, so it moves slower and probably, agility is problem too. Less drones with your ship is not problem, if u snipe, but what if u are close range, u need alot of drones there.. And i need cap to sustain blasters, and medium rep..mwd is lesser problem, coz if i land 100km of target and i have blasters on, i wont try to mwd to him..mwd is just for getting from 15km to 6km..that is one cycle of mwd..then cap recharge is most important if u dont have cap booster..
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:11:00 - [113] Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio So the hyp's bonus is now a tank bonus instead of mwd? yeah and what a bonus... Large Rep II works like a good faction repper we all know that tanking makes the difference between do or die in close range combat... I think they hyperion will completely outclass the mega in this respect
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:11:00 - [114] Edited by: Ithildin on 25/10/2006 11:13:22 Got as far as warping to FFA#1. There was a Rokh there, so game crashed. (There's a bug currently - if you shoot at a Rokh, game crashes) In either case, this is what I managed to fit: High * 8x Ion Blaster II [Antimatter] Mid * 100mn MWD II, Warp Disruptor I, Fleeting Web, Balmer Tracking Disruptor, Heavy Electrochemical [Cap charge 800] Low * LAR II, Internal Forcefield, 2x EANMII, 2x Magnetic Field II. Drone * 10x Hammerhead II Reactions: you can fit a bit more than I intuitively thought, although I must say it is very difficult in either case. To fully make use of the repair bonus, you must fit the LAR, which is the biggest crook in the set up. Powergrid: Powergrid is very tight. This ship simply doesn't have the low slots for fitting modules. Dual repair set up will completely defeat it's purpose as a blaster ship considering that too much damage must be sacrificed. CPU: This is, if possible, even tighter. As you can see above, it's pretty much a standard setup with a few top-named modules. I can tell you, a full T2 or faction set up is not possible unless it's faction items that use LESS CPU than T2 items. Edit: Approx: 18906 powergrid used of 19062.5 Exactly: 737 CPU used of 737.5 sigh Now I'm logged in with my alt. She can't use T2 guns, which is sort of ironic for a 35M PvP specialized char. Will have to test other stuff. - What am I listening to?
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:14:00 - [115] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio So the hyp's bonus is now a tank bonus instead of mwd? yeah and what a bonus... Large Rep II works like a good faction repper we all know that tanking makes the difference between do or die in close range combat... I think they hyperion will completely outclass the mega in this respect Err... I know it doesn't make squat difference. 1600mm Rolled Tungsten > Chelm Armour Repairer - What am I listening to?
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:21:00 - [116] Originally by: Ithildin Err... I know it doesn't make squat difference. 1600mm Rolled Tungsten > Chelm Armour Repairer By what logic? If a faction repper gets you 1500 per cycle, you only need 4 cycles to be well above the benefit a plate will give you. With the fact you have a base 12000 armor anyway with HU V, I don't see your point.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:31:00 - [117] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Ithildin Err... I know it doesn't make squat difference. 1600mm Rolled Tungsten > Chelm Armour Repairer By what logic? If a faction repper gets you 1500 per cycle, you only need 4 cycles to be well above the benefit a plate will give you. With the fact you have a base 12000 armor anyway with HU V, I don't see your point. A rolled tungsten gives you 6300 more armour at the expense of around 28 cpu and 500 powergrid. A Chelm rep on a Hyperion gives 1732.5 per cycle at the expense of 46 cpu and 2800 powergrid. It takes the rep 3.63 cycles to make up for a tungsten plate. Translated in seconds this means 37.8 seconds. Translated in capacitor this is 1512 capacitor units. What fight is not over in that time? Does this justify sucking up 12.5% of the capacitor? Is this a good balance on a PvP ship considering the fact that we are comparing a T1 meta item to the best possible officer item? Does this slow performance justify sucking up so much of an already tight fitting? - What am I listening to?
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:33:00 - [118] so far its looks outstandingly meh This corp is recruiting. Billboard Project
Magunus The Forsakened Few The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:45:00 - [119] Originally by: Ithildin Edited by: Ithildin on 25/10/2006 11:13:22 Got as far as warping to FFA#1. There was a Rokh there, so game crashed. (There's a bug currently - if you shoot at a Rokh, game crashes) In either case, this is what I managed to fit: High * 8x Ion Blaster II [Antimatter] Mid * 100mn MWD II, Warp Disruptor I, Fleeting Web, Balmer Tracking Disruptor, Heavy Electrochemical [Cap charge 800] Low * LAR II, Internal Forcefield, 2x EANMII, 2x Magnetic Field II. Drone * 10x Hammerhead II Reactions: you can fit a bit more than I intuitively thought, although I must say it is very difficult in either case. To fully make use of the repair bonus, you must fit the LAR, which is the biggest crook in the set up. Powergrid: Powergrid is very tight. This ship simply doesn't have the low slots for fitting modules. Dual repair set up will completely defeat it's purpose as a blaster ship considering that too much damage must be sacrificed. CPU: This is, if possible, even tighter. As you can see above, it's pretty much a standard setup with a few top-named modules. I can tell you, a full T2 or faction set up is not possible unless it's faction items that use LESS CPU than T2 items. Edit: Approx: 18906 powergrid used of 19062.5 Exactly: 737 CPU used of 737.5 sigh Now I'm logged in with my alt. She can't use T2 guns, which is sort of ironic for a 35M PvP specialized char. Will have to test other stuff. What happens if you swap the damage control for an inertial stabilizer? --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:48:00 - [120] I lose the resistance bonus from the damage control, of course. I can't test since I got dropped, you know. And my alt's got this funny bug - she can't dock in station properly. - What am I listening to?

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