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Sticky:[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance Part 2

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Oh Takashawa Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion 84	Posted - 2015.04.02 12:55:19 - [91] - Quote So the stront here is another thing we'll have to have in cargo of ships, which will prevent ships from being stored in SMAs until it's removed. Can we finally get CCP to look at lifting the restriictions on Ozone (and now Stront) in cargo, as a quality of life measure?
Arronicus Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx 1493	Posted - 2015.04.02 13:00:00 - [92] - Quote Rowells wrote: IB4 100pwg 10km/s 250km lock range trollceptor plans INB4 100pwg 10km/s 250km lock range interceptor with enough cap to run the module is impossible. The mass addition alone was the perfect solution.
Jenshae Chiroptera 1202	Posted - 2015.04.02 13:03:45 - [93] - Quote So ... still replacing the satisfaction of shooting the enemies' stuff with waving a magic wand at it? Still think the psychology of Null Sec players is going to mesh well with Factional Warfare type mechanics? CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids. . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow. Fozzie is treating a symptom.
Cade Windstalker Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra 325	Posted - 2015.04.02 13:14:18 - [94] - Quote PinkKnife wrote: So then, its kitsune sov? Seriously though whats to stop people from just coming out and using blackbirds or keres or kitsunes and perma-ruining your attempts to take something. Sure you can blap them, but brave has enough disposible ewar frigs to perma defend any fleet despite not holding the grid. I'd suggest making the ship get 100X the sensor strength or lock range as well. At least then you have a chance to hold the link on against ewar. The fight should be over control of the grid, not who can jam out the other more. There's nothing stopping attackers from running multiple Entosis Links on a structure, or using remote ECCM to make them nearly impossible to jam. Plus the defender has to actually control the grid enough to tick the timer back down or the defense never ends. Aiyshimin wrote: Are the Command Nodes in deadspace? (like Large FW complexes) Is the exact victory condition for the event just "whoever first completes 10 nodes"? Can NPC corp members use Entosis Links on structures? Does the Entosis Link cycle continue without target lock? Do the nodes have a visible timer for everyone on grid? and a few more: Do the nodes allow anchoring deployables in their vicinity? Will the nodes have a decloaking sphere around them? [/quote] What do you mean by Deadspace? They're not gated, if that's what you're asking. It's not first to 10 nodes it's 10 net node points. Meaning if you can get 10 more than your opponent you win, but if you get 10 and your opponent got 5 you still need 5 more. Yes, but they count as an attacker and they can't actually take Sov, and IIRC from the previous thread they can't use them on nodes for the actual capture event. Yes, but no progress is made. Hasn't been specified yet I would assume so. I would assume not, since the Entosis Link cycle prevents cloaking, so there's no need to stop someone from being cloaked next to the node since they can't impact anything while cloaked. Humang wrote: Dr Farallon wrote: And 1 strontium is way too low. Maybe 10 or 25 per cycle. If you're gonna do 1 you might as well do none at all. I agree with this, in that it should be removed altogether, It seems like a requirement that would be more if an annoyance than a limiting factor, and for a system that already has a fair amount of drawbacks. I'll probably regret suggesting this, but how about using a fatigue mechanic instead: after X number of cycles you need to wait Y amount of time before you can reactivate it. I don't think it's mean to be a major requirement here. Keep in mind this is something that's meant to go on for at least an hour in a well defended system, and every ship starting a link needs one cycle of warmup. For a completely uncontested Node event with full occupancy metrics that's a minimum of 210 Strong using a 'T2' Link. Also since the event is going to go on for a long time ships are likely to need a lot of ammo in addition to whatever stront they use to capture. If the fuel requirement is pushed too high it goes from being a minor consideration in a long fight to a major hassle to deal with, and makes Amarr ships (with their lack of ammo requirements) the default capture boats since they'd be the only ones able to hold enough Strontium to run a full capture. Xindi Kraid wrote: So how much are structures going to be able to control their own grid? While we don't want to end up back where we were having to grind structure HP, there's also something to be said for not just allowing drive by linking in the time when everyone using the structure is away. Also how long do you expect capture to take, and what will modify that time, if anything? Structures should actually require a somewhat committed force, not just a few people reinforcing the structure in 15 minutes for the lolz. Read the original blog post, most of this is answered there. The only thing that isn't is the structure related stuff, because that falls under the Structure revamp.
Pooptasticize Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.04.02 13:16:14 - [95] - Quote One thing that the stront requirement will add is now you can't have a cheap afk brick tanked drone-boat defending a structure all day.
Cade Windstalker Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra 326	Posted - 2015.04.02 13:21:06 - [96] - Quote Emmy Mnemonic wrote: Concerning capitals and entosis-links: A carrier with entosis link will take x5 as long time to capture a sov structure, but what will happen if a defender shows up with a frig and an entosis link - will it be counterd/stopped by one defending frig with an entosis link? Or will the frig have "more power" over the capital? I.e will it take 5 capitals with entosis links to balance one subcap with entosis link? Other questionmarks: If an attacker entosises for say 5 out of the necessary 10 minutes, and is then destroyed, does the defender have to "de-entosis" the structure back for the equal time before it is saved fully? And if the attacker sends in another ship to entosis, will it have only 5 minutes left until the command nodes are spawned, or how will this work? Capitals don't take 5 times as long, they just cycle for five times as long. It's not number of cycles it's time spent cycling. So a Carrier with a t2 will have a 10 minute warm-up cycle and then takes the same amount of actual time to perform a capture as any other ship, it just does it in 'fewer cycles' but as a result is also vulnerable for longer. The defender doesn't need to run their links as long as the attacker. Check the blog post for timer mechanics.
Edward Olmops DUST Expeditionary Team Good Sax 298	Posted - 2015.04.02 13:21:36 - [97] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: T1 Entosis Link: Requires Infomorph Psychology 1 +250,000 mass when online 5 Minute Cycle Time, 25km range 10 PWG, 1 CPU 50 Capacitor per cycle (0.1666 cap/s) Consumes 1 Stront per cycle T2 Entosis Link: Requires Infomorph Psychology 4 +1,000,000 mass when online 2 Minute Cycle Time, 250km range 100 PWG, 10 CPU 500 Capacitor per cycle (4.166 cap/s) Consumes 1 Stront per cycle The stats for the T1 and T2 Version are completely different. Why don't you make two different T1 versions (like "Entosis Link" vs "Long Range Entosis Link" or "Focussed Entosis Link") ? This would be way more fitting to the pattern all other modules show. What you present here as a T2 Version is not a slightly more advanced Version of the T1 module, but something completely different. It's meant partially for different hulls (PG requirement & mass) and different tactics (range & cycle time). This would be the same as if Railguns somehow were the T2 version of Blasters... Just saying as I don't get the reasoning behind it.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6679	Posted - 2015.04.02 13:51:29 - [98] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: So ... still replacing the satisfaction of shooting the enemies' stuff with waving a magic wand at it? Still think the psychology of Null Sec players is going to mesh well with Factional Warfare type mechanics? Nah it's sorta ok you're not grinding through EHP but EntosisHitPoints ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears. Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
Berluth Luthian Hoplite Brigade 202	Posted - 2015.04.02 13:57:45 - [99] - Quote A carrier in triage with EWAR immunity is a link that won't be broken unless capped out or killed. You can then target the enemy and damp/jam through their whole fleet while your triage link remains. The question I don't know if I've seen answered is whether a warm up cycle cancels enemy entosis progress?
Azure and Argent Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 0	Posted - 2015.04.02 13:59:43 - [100] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The powergrid requirements for the T2 version are indeed difficult for frigates and destroyers. The T1 version is a much more viable option for frigates, but yes this mean we would expect ships of cruiser size or higher to have a lot of importance in contested sov warfare. I'm glad to see you've decided to ignore whatever idiot came up with this line. Quote: This also means that we don't want to be using the Entosis Links to intentionally manipulate ship use. We've seen some people suggesting that we restrict Entosis Links to battleships, command ships or capital ships in order to buff those classes. Using the Entosis Link mechanics to artificially skew the meta in that way is not something we are interested in doing.

Agent Unknown Night Theifs 39	Posted - 2015.04.02 13:59:45 - [101] - Quote Cade Windstalker wrote: There's nothing stopping attackers from running multiple Entosis Links on a structure, or using remote ECCM to make them nearly impossible to jam. Plus the defender has to actually control the grid enough to tick the timer back down or the defense never ends. No remote assistance is allowed, so that includes remote ECCM. The ship using the link would have to stack ECCM on its own (thus gimping its fit).
Wanda Fayne Gurlz with Gunz 66	Posted - 2015.04.02 14:29:10 - [102] - Quote +1 to the changes. cue up Marauder training...nice to see BS useage back in the mix
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 112	Posted - 2015.04.02 14:41:00 - [103] - Quote Wanda Fayne wrote: +1 to the changes. cue up Marauder training...nice to see BS useage back in the mix Battleships... albeit Tech 2 with carrier price tag and 1/10 the insurance payout. /Not sure yet. ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Tikktokk Tokkzikk Alekhine's Gun The Periphery 207	Posted - 2015.04.02 14:49:31 - [104] - Quote What is the volume of Entosis LInks? Will I be able to bring a depot and entosis link on my roaming ship to disable upgrades and such? Also why the mass penalty? If I understand correctly, a Maulus can counter an infinite amount of trollceptors by breaking their lock once, forcing them to do a warmup. I'm already sacrificing a highslot and would rather not gimp my fit further with a mass penalty.
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1227	Posted - 2015.04.02 15:04:26 - [105] - Quote Steve Ronuken wrote: Galphii wrote: A greatly improved system Foz, though 1 stront per cycle isn't going to be enough. I'd suggest 2 for the T1 and 5 for the T2. The mass increase is on the light side too, consider increasing that a little more. Otherwise, its looking good. Remember that the T2 version cycles significantly faster than the T1 version. And that it's time dependant, rather than number of cycle dependant. So 10 minutes (minimum capture time, after the initial warm up) would be (with your suggestion) 4 Stront for the T1 version, and 25 for the T2. Ah, the shorter cycle time isn't necessarily a good thing since it will end up costing more than 6x the fuel. That's some really interesting interaction. I'm pretty please with what has been laid out here. And depite not being limited to CBCs, people may still use them because cheap, tanky, and utility high slot. Or they will just use Ishtars. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Wanda Fayne Gurlz with Gunz 67	Posted - 2015.04.02 15:05:18 - [106] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Wanda Fayne wrote: +1 to the changes. cue up Marauder training...nice to see BS useage back in the mix Battleships... albeit Tech 2 with carrier price tag and 1/10 the insurance payout. /Not sure yet. A quick theorycraft reveals that the t2 entosis link can be fitted to AF's (did the Ishkur) with a gimpy fitting and Lvl5 skills. [Ishkur, test] 3x Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range Script) 3x Reactor Control Unit II 2x Small Ancillary Current Router II (1x t2 Entosis Link) 55x Strontium Clathrates targeting range = 194km
Cade Windstalker Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra 327	Posted - 2015.04.02 15:08:06 - [107] - Quote Berluth Luthian wrote: The question I don't know if I've seen answered is whether a warm up cycle cancels enemy entosis progress? Good point, I'd love to see this answered as well. Agent Unknown wrote: No remote assistance is allowed, so that includes remote ECCM. The ship using the link would have to stack ECCM on its own (thus gimping its fit). Woops, point, my mistake there. My point about a Triage Carrier stands though. Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote: Also why the mass penalty? If I understand correctly, a Maulus can counter an infinite amount of trollceptors by breaking their lock once, forcing them to do a warmup. I'm already sacrificing a highslot and would rather not gimp my fit further with a mass penalty. There were significant concerns that Interceptors and other fast ships would be able to troll Sov without significant consequences, just running around and spamming an Alliance with defense call mails and generally making a nuisance of themselves. It would be easy to stop them from actually capturing anything but without the ability to actually kill them you need to baby-sit your sov structures for four hours during peak play times every day, and no one wants that. Wanda Fayne wrote: A quick theorycraft reveals that the t2 entosis link can be fitted to AF's (did the Ishkur) with a gimpy fitting and Lvl5 skills. [Ishkur, test] 3x Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range Script) 3x Reactor Control Unit II 2x Small Ancillary Current Router II (1x t2 Entosis Link) 55x Strontium Clathrates targeting range = 194km I don't really see this as a problem. This isn't a ship it's a flying Entosis Link, which means it will be ridiculously easy to hunt down and kill.
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1227	Posted - 2015.04.02 15:13:06 - [108] - Quote Wanda Fayne wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Wanda Fayne wrote: +1 to the changes. cue up Marauder training...nice to see BS useage back in the mix Battleships... albeit Tech 2 with carrier price tag and 1/10 the insurance payout. /Not sure yet. A quick theorycraft reveals that the t2 entosis link can be fitted to AF's (did the Ishkur) with a gimpy fitting and Lvl5 skills. [Ishkur, test] 3x Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range Script) 3x Reactor Control Unit II 2x Small Ancillary Current Router II (1x t2 Entosis Link) 55x Strontium Clathrates targeting range = 194km The only reason to do that is to use the link at long range. Damps will still likely break his lock, screwing him over for the entirety of his currently remaining cycle and another one on top of that. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Wanda Fayne Gurlz with Gunz 67	Posted - 2015.04.02 15:15:34 - [109] - Quote Soldarius wrote: Wanda Fayne wrote: A quick theorycraft reveals that the t2 entosis link can be fitted to AF's (did the Ishkur) with a gimpy fitting and Lvl5 skills. [Ishkur, test] 3x Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range Script) 3x Reactor Control Unit II 2x Small Ancillary Current Router II (1x t2 Entosis Link) 55x Strontium Clathrates targeting range = 194km The only reason to do that is to use the link at long range. Damps will still likely break his lock, screwing him over for the entirety of his currently remaining cycle and another one on top of that. True. It's just crafting to see what the minimum ship hull could be used for t2
Elenahina agony unleashed Agony Empire 388	Posted - 2015.04.02 15:25:37 - [110] - Quote Wanda Fayne wrote: Soldarius wrote: Wanda Fayne wrote: A quick theorycraft reveals that the t2 entosis link can be fitted to AF's (did the Ishkur) with a gimpy fitting and Lvl5 skills. [Ishkur, test] 3x Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range Script) 3x Reactor Control Unit II 2x Small Ancillary Current Router II (1x t2 Entosis Link) 55x Strontium Clathrates targeting range = 194km The only reason to do that is to use the link at long range. Damps will still likely break his lock, screwing him over for the entirety of his currently remaining cycle and another one on top of that. True. It's just crafting to see what the minimum ship hull could be used for t2. Interceptors are out, however. Actually, they're not, but the fit is so gimped it's useless. I did theory craft a T2 link onto a cap stable Ares. But you only get 40k of lock range, which sort of defeats the purpose. [Ares, Trollin Ur Sov] Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core Small Peroxide Capacitor Power Cell Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Small Peroxide Capacitor Power Cell T2 Entosis Link [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Small Ancillary Current Router II Small Ancillary Current Router II At max skills with no implants, you have 542 (enough to fire the link) cap to spare, 16 CPU and 6 Power grid left. Oh and a 6.5 second align. And it's only stable with the link, or the prop mod, not both. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec

Sven Viko VIkolander Friends and Feminists 338	Posted - 2015.04.02 15:27:10 - [111] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: [/list] Now on to the new details. A few players have brought up the idea of putting a fuel use on the Entosis link in our feedback threads, and we discussed the idea further with players at Fanfest. We like the way that fuel use encouraged logistics and supported attacks, and discourages leaving alts logged off behind enemy lines. It also helps break long stalemates in the worst case scenario of neither side being able or willing to engage each other. We're also adding a small flat mass increase that will apply whenever the Entosis link is online (not just when it's active). This will work much like smaller armor plates, where it has a more noticeable effect on smaller ships than on larger ships. Finally, we have the fitting and capacitor costs of the module. Like most other modules, T2 will use more cap and require more fitting than T1. T1 Entosis Link: Requires Infomorph Psychology 1 +250,000 mass when online 5 Minute Cycle Time, 25km range 10 PWG, 1 CPU 50 Capacitor per cycle (0.1666 cap/s) Consumes 1 Stront per cycle T2 Entosis Link: Requires Infomorph Psychology 4 +1,000,000 mass when online 2 Minute Cycle Time, 250km range 100 PWG, 10 CPU 500 Capacitor per cycle (4.166 cap/s) Consumes 1 Stront per cycle As always, nothing is set in stone and we plan to continue discussing this new module and its impacts with you all over the next few months. This thread will be the new focus for discussion of the Entosis Link and its balance, and I hope that you will all let us know what you think of this version of the proposal and its implications. Thanks! Fozzie, the first thing to remember is that using the entosis link itself is not a fun mechanic, even if it might result in fun things (e.g. fights). Having penalties which make it even less fun to be the entosis link pilot (or alt) are a bad foundation to a new sov mechanics. So, I think the Stront requirement by itself is enough to discourage troll entosis use (e.g. entosis pilots logged off until the system is empty or entosis interceptors) and the mass penalty should NOT be used. This point has been made a thousand times by people who do lots of PVP in null: if you cannot counter entosis interceptors ESPECIALLY now that they won't be able to viably fit a T2 link and now that they will need stront in the cargo then you are probably NOT competent enough to hold and defend your sov in null sec. Second, also for the reasons noted above, the PG/CPU requirements for the t1 entosis link should be changed. 10 PG does NOT fit on any viable frigate or destroyer setup currently in use, which completely contradicts the stated goal of the entosis link to the effect that: "The Entosis Link itself should have the minimum possible effect on what ships and tactics players can choose." A t1 entosis link not fitting on virtually any current frig/destroyer PVP setup (because no real setup has 10 free powergrid) does not fit this goal, and significantly harms small gang sov warfare where every ship in fleet needs to be a viable pvp ship, where the players cannot simply bring 10 dummy entosis alts. I suggest changing the tech 1 entosis link requirements to 1 or 2 PG and 10-15 cpu so that it actually fits on useful frig/dessy setups.
Vulfen Snuff Box Snuffed Out 173	Posted - 2015.04.02 15:35:58 - [112] - Quote I think the entosis link needs to buff the sig radius of the ship using it slightly This will prevent people using hard to scan T3s to claim the site by sitting at long range so people need to scan you down to get ontop of you. I think any combat recon ship using the module should show up on DSCAN Also how will the grid work for the large fights on these places because to people on oposite sides of the entosis link at 250km could possibly be on 2 separate grids if there is a fight going on around it that has adjusted the grid?
Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 1	Posted - 2015.04.02 15:37:19 - [113] - Quote The T2 version still shouldn't have a range ten times higher than the T1 version; either buff the T1 or nerf the T2 range, imo. Since frigates, and only frigates, will be fitting the T1 version with these huge differences, this is almost an artificial ship-choice nerf like CCP said they'd try to avoid. I'm not sure how I feel on the 10-minute initial cycle for caps. It mainly means they'll be slower initially, but once they're on field, they're still extremely powerful, and won't discourage capital-exclusive blobs. If CCP also makes them change the timer (10-20%) slower, they'll make it viable to use subcaps alongside caps.
Deacon Abox Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 482	Posted - 2015.04.02 15:42:26 - [114] - Quote Milla Goodpussy wrote: go to riot! or we riot! Aw look. You got no likes for your pithy post. Seems like most people approve of the changes. So, No U! CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
rsantos Mosquito Squadron Mordus Angels 41	Posted - 2015.04.02 15:42:51 - [115] - Quote The dirty bloblers have won! Hope you all have fun with the new sov laser cyno fitted to your carriers in 10% TiDi!
Wanda Fayne Gurlz with Gunz 67	Posted - 2015.04.02 15:47:49 - [116] - Quote Elenahina wrote: Wanda Fayne wrote: True. It's just crafting to see what the minimum ship hull could be used for t2. Interceptors are out, however. Actually, they're not, but the fit is so gimped it's useless. I did theory craft a T2 link onto a cap stable Ares. But you only get 40k of lock range, which sort of defeats the purpose. [Ares, Trollin Ur Sov] Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core Small Peroxide Capacitor Power Cell Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Small Peroxide Capacitor Power Cell T2 Entosis Link [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Small Ancillary Current Router II Small Ancillary Current Router II At max skills with no implants, you have 542 (enough to fire the link) cap to spare, 16 CPU and 6 Power grid left. Oh and a 6.5 second align. And it's only stable with the link, or the prop mod, not both. Gotcha The Tactical Destroyers look to be the smallest hull that isn't gimped into uselessness with the t2 Entosis link. They have the targeting range and speed modes to be useful. Still going to give up that firepower though to make it work. I hope all D3's are released in time for these changes to be worked out.
SilentAsTheGrave Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 170	Posted - 2015.04.02 15:53:16 - [117] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Consumes 1 Stront per cycle This is why I love CCP. GÖÑ Buddy Program: If you sign up with my buddy invite link and subscribe with a valid payment method - I will give you 95% of the going rate for PLEX!
Wanda Fayne Gurlz with Gunz 67	Posted - 2015.04.02 15:58:50 - [118] - Quote SilentAsTheGrave wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Consumes 1 Stront per cycle This is why I love CCP. GÖÑ That was your suggestion in the last thread. Well done
SilentAsTheGrave Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 172	Posted - 2015.04.02 16:10:09 - [119] - Quote Wanda Fayne wrote: SilentAsTheGrave wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Consumes 1 Stront per cycle This is why I love CCP. GÖÑ That was your suggestion in the last thread. Well done Thanks! There have been some who have been saying this new Entosis Link will be a boost for bumping Machariels in high sec. The way I understand it, you need a valid target for the Entosis Link to activate to get the mass increase. There will not be any of these capture points in high sec so it is a moot point, correct? Buddy Program: If you sign up with my buddy invite link and subscribe with a valid payment method - I will give you 95% of the going rate for PLEX!
Ned Thomas Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 1477	Posted - 2015.04.02 16:15:35 - [120] - Quote Wanda Fayne wrote: The Tactical Destroyers look to be the smallest hull that isn't gimped into uselessness with the t2 Entosis link. They have the targeting range and speed modes to be useful. Still going to give up that firepower though to make it work. I hope all D3's are released in time for these changes to be worked out. With the power grid nerfs for the Svipul and Confessor, and assuming that the Jackdaw and Hecate will have similar PG stats, then they'll need to be quite gimped to fit a T2 E-link. Don't get lost alone - Join Signal Cartel, New Eden's premier haven for explorers! Onward to Thera with Eve Scout



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