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Sticky:[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance Part 2

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Nolak Ataru KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 812	Posted - 2015.04.05 12:19:15 - [211] - Quote INB4 BootDomis, Ishtars, and Pantheon Carrier fleets.
Thane Ansollare Stay Frosty. A Band Apart. 0	Posted - 2015.04.05 12:57:44 - [212] - Quote Azure and Argent wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The powergrid requirements for the T2 version are indeed difficult for frigates and destroyers. The T1 version is a much more viable option for frigates, but yes this mean we would expect ships of cruiser size or higher to have a lot of importance in contested sov warfare. I'm glad to see you've decided to ignore whatever idiot came up with this line. Quote: This also means that we don't want to be using the Entosis Links to intentionally manipulate ship use. We've seen some people suggesting that we restrict Entosis Links to battleships, command ships or capital ships in order to buff those classes. Using the Entosis Link mechanics to artificially skew the meta in that way is not something we are interested in doing. CCP Fozzie wrote: Goal #3: Minimize the systemic pressure to bring more people or larger ships than would be required to simply defeat your enemies on the field of battle. Except if you defeat your enemies on the field of battle with frigates apparently. The other changes would have been fine with out the elevated fitting needs of the T2 module. If an alliance can't blap an inti they have other problems. Maybe a better change would be to just remove/decrease MWD bloom bonus's while the module is active. Although with the locking range of frigates I don't think "trollceptors" were ever going to have a huge impact except to those who blanketly dock up whenever there's a neutral in system.
Raphael Celestine Celestine Inc. 58	Posted - 2015.04.05 13:56:36 - [213] - Quote Thane Ansollare wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Goal #3: Minimize the systemic pressure to bring more people or larger ships than would be required to simply defeat your enemies on the field of battle. Except if you defeat your enemies on the field of battle with frigates apparently. The other changes would have been fine with out the elevated fitting needs of the T2 module. If an alliance can't blap an inti they have other problems. Maybe a better change would be to just remove/decrease MWD bloom bonus's while the module is active. Although with the locking range of frigates I don't think "trollceptors" were ever going to have a huge impact except to those who blanketly dock up whenever there's a neutral in system. If you actually do defeat your enemies with frigates, then the T1 E-link should be all you need. I'm inclined to agree that trollceptors wouldn't necessarily have been a major issue, but the major advantage of the T2 mod is the extra range - and it's hard to see what a frigate/destroyer pilot who actually intends to fight would need with a 250km range anyway. A small-ship gang who can't keep a ship within 25km of the target can hardly claim to be 'controlling the grid', so they probably don't deserve to be able to make any capture progress.
Jenshae Chiroptera 1221	Posted - 2015.04.05 17:13:39 - [214] - Quote The overwhelming problem with people saying this is a great idea is that they seem to only be thinking about it in terms of one roam or one battle. They aren't thinking about this in terms of having a constant stream of small gangs flying through your space. "OMGADZ lookie thar pappy, we can getz us them SOV space!" "Yessie Sir, we be taking them SOVs .... but ..... erm .... how are we going to hold onto it for long if they can't?" i.e. Fozzie Logic is creating griefer paradise. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids. . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow. Fozzie is treating a symptom.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6697	Posted - 2015.04.05 17:36:13 - [215] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: The overwhelming problem with people saying this is a great idea is that they seem to only be thinking about it in terms of one roam or one battle. They aren't thinking about this in terms of having a constant stream of small gangs flying through your space. "OMGADZ lookie thar pappy, we can getz us them SOV space!" "Yessie Sir, we be taking them SOVs .... but ..... erm .... how are we going to hold onto it for long if they can't?" i.e. Fozzie Logic is creating griefer paradise. shaking up sov op success ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears. Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
Cade Windstalker Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra 337	Posted - 2015.04.05 18:05:31 - [216] - Quote rsantos wrote: Blobbing will always be a winning tactic. Nerfing ship agility will only favor blobbing even more. The entosis link already had pretty bad down sides - no remote assistance - making kitting the only tank option. This change kills that option and does nothing for small fights. It make blobbing the only tanking option. There's absolutely nothing stopping you from keeping the module offline or even in your cargo bay until you have control of the grid, at which point you drop a Mobile Depot or just refit off a carrier and go about capturing. Thus the flow of battle to reinforce a structure ends up going along the lines of: Initial attack by the aggressors. Link is activated and after initial cycle defending alliance is informed their structure is under attack. Defenders respond and either drop their own links or move to destroy those of the enemy. Depending on ships linking either side may target the other's links or assume them to be bait-tanked and ignore them in favor of more dangerous targets. Either way capture progress stalls while the enemy fleet is on grid. One side or the other is driven off the grid, the winner resumes ticking down their timer. 2 and 3 repeat until either the vulnerability period ends or the attacks by the aggressor cease. The flow around a node would be similar except that there will be little to no initial capture progress as both sides show up expecting a fight to happen. Of course this is hardly a comprehensive tactical overview and I'm sure others will come up with more and different strategies, but it's not really fair to say that the Entosis system is actually encouraging blobbing more than present systems are. At the very least splitting the fighting over multiple grids forces a fleet to split up, no matter how big of a blob they have. Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: The overwhelming problem with people saying this is a great idea is that they seem to only be thinking about it in terms of one roam or one battle. They aren't thinking about this in terms of having a constant stream of small gangs flying through your space. "OMGADZ lookie thar pappy, we can getz us them SOV space!" "Yessie Sir, we be taking them SOVs .... but ..... erm .... how are we going to hold onto it for long if they can't?" i.e. Fozzie Logic is creating griefer paradise. Hence the massive downsides to the Entosis link. If you have decently high occupancy metrics that griefer roam is never going to even reinforce anything, but if they try you'll have a small gang to chase around your space and PvP with, one that has at least one member carrying a 1 million kg paper weight, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's only 4 hours ever day anyways, where as right now there's nothing stopping people from flitting around in sniper fits shooting POSes or structures to achieve roughly the same effect.
Nolak Ataru KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 813	Posted - 2015.04.06 12:24:41 - [217] - Quote Took another system last night with domis, harpies, celestis, and dread fleets. Other side was a no-show Post-Entosis sov will be nothing but Ishtars and Domis and Huginns and Lokis. Drop drones + assist, turn on entosis, go play DOTA2. I don't understand why CCP can't see this.
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2033	Posted - 2015.04.06 14:19:07 - [218] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: The overwhelming problem with people saying this is a great idea is that they seem to only be thinking about it in terms of one roam or one battle. They aren't thinking about this in terms of having a constant stream of small gangs flying through your space. "OMGADZ lookie thar pappy, we can getz us them SOV space!" "Yessie Sir, we be taking them SOVs .... but ..... erm .... how are we going to hold onto it for long if they can't?" i.e. Fozzie Logic is creating griefer paradise. you mena.. Exaclty like eve should be? "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2033	Posted - 2015.04.06 14:21:30 - [219] - Quote Nolak Ataru wrote: Took another system last night with domis, harpies, celestis, and dread fleets. Other side was a no-show Post-Entosis sov will be nothing but Ishtars and Domis and Huginns and Lokis. Drop drones + assist, turn on entosis, go play DOTA2. I don't understand why CCP can't see this. because they can read their own proposal. For god sake. at least TRY. The defending side can ALWAYSD escalate back and they can cancel thwe take over with their OWN entosis link, than you need to defeat the defending fleet, and things jsut faslty escalate the same way as now. The main difference is that this will only happens when people LIVE in a system. If the system is abandoned, there will be no escalation. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2033	Posted - 2015.04.06 14:25:22 - [220] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: I don't see any reason to make capital ships have a longer duration. Sure, they're more difficult to shoot down, but they're also more difficult to get into position and a lot more valuable of a target. It's not like shooting a linking subcap is going to reset the timer for that side, in fact it likely won't even stop their timer since many forces will use multiple entosis links on a single structure. Yes, an entire fleet of dreadnoughts and carriers will easily win a link. Is that a bad thing? I say we should have more reasons to put capital ships in the line of fire, not less. because otherwise things will develop into suicide triage drops to take the entosis effect on. You cannot realistically take out a surprise triage carrier that just cynoed in with an entosis before it gets a large effect. How much it needs to be slower is something to e discussed, but that some differences must exist, I think there is no doubt abou t that. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment

davet517 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 77	Posted - 2015.04.06 14:49:00 - [221] - Quote So, in order to alter the current "N+1" state of affairs you are creating a mechanic where you light up the primary for the opposing side and make it so that they can't be repped, can't warp, and dock, and are just about guaranteed to be slower than whatever is chasing them. This certainly won't lead to power blocs spamming thousands of entosis links to overwhelm any attacker's ability to clear them from the field. I had to laugh when I watched Fozzie's interview where he said they're trying to avoid introducing changes where they know what the result will be. I guess that's easier to do for some people than it is for others. The net result is that it's a nerf to renting. Renters docking up to avoid roaming gangs will result in rental regions being lit up with timers constantly, and landlords chasing their tails trying to cover them all. Precious moons will still be guarded by Super-Blobs. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2065	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:08:57 - [222] - Quote Nolak Ataru wrote: Took another system last night with domis, harpies, celestis, and dread fleets. Other side was a no-show Post-Entosis sov will be nothing but Ishtars and Domis and Huginns and Lokis. Drop drones + assist, turn on entosis, go play DOTA2. I don't understand why CCP can't see this. Thats why I am hoping for small to xl e-links and small to xl capture annoms that are tied to occupied indexes. That way if you want to caputre a system that is not being used you can do it with frigs... but if you want to capture the capital system of a large alliance you will have to bring the big guns and thus put them up for potential loss... which hopefully will be the spark for large scale fights like b-r (one of the great things about b-r was it took place over several systems this if done well could be a great template for not only PR but future fights for sov in general) There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2065	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:11:01 - [223] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Nolak Ataru wrote: Took another system last night with domis, harpies, celestis, and dread fleets. Other side was a no-show Post-Entosis sov will be nothing but Ishtars and Domis and Huginns and Lokis. Drop drones + assist, turn on entosis, go play DOTA2. I don't understand why CCP can't see this. because they can read their own proposal. For god sake. at least TRY. The defending side can ALWAYSD escalate back and they can cancel thwe take over with their OWN entosis link, than you need to defeat the defending fleet, and things jsut faslty escalate the same way as now. The main difference is that this will only happens when people LIVE in a system. If the system is abandoned, there will be no escalation. well no escalation for the initial reinforce... but there will be for the actual capture event. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1234	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:49:36 - [224] - Quote Any reason we can't have different size Entosis Links as well as T2 versions of each? Give T2 better fitting and such. We could also have the T1 consume more fuel. edit: But there would need to be a reason to field the larger links. MEh. Not sounding terribly good. Maybe just ignore this idea. Just go with different sizes. No T2 links. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
rsantos Mosquito Squadron Mordus Angels 42	Posted - 2015.04.06 16:27:50 - [225] - Quote Nolak Ataru wrote: Took another system last night with domis, harpies, celestis, and dread fleets. Other side was a no-show Post-Entosis sov will be nothing but Ishtars and Domis and Huginns and Lokis. Drop drones + assist, turn on entosis, go play DOTA2. I don't understand why CCP can't see this. No... post-entosis sov you will still be chasing frigates reinforcing random systems for 4 hours. we will do our best to make sure you not "allowed" to play DOTA2! :P
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2065	Posted - 2015.04.06 17:50:55 - [226] - Quote rsantos wrote: Nolak Ataru wrote: Took another system last night with domis, harpies, celestis, and dread fleets. Other side was a no-show Post-Entosis sov will be nothing but Ishtars and Domis and Huginns and Lokis. Drop drones + assist, turn on entosis, go play DOTA2. I don't understand why CCP can't see this. No... post-entosis sov you will still be chasing frigates reinforcing random systems for 4 hours. we will do our best to make sure you not "allowed" to play DOTA2! :P the best will be after june a group like brave can go in and literally reinforce every cfc system from ihub to outpost... then it will be interesting if mittens forces the meatshields.... i mean equal members of the cfc like fcon to save goon space... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Jenshae Chiroptera 1224	Posted - 2015.04.06 19:16:54 - [227] - Quote Soldarius wrote: Any reason we can't have different size Entosis Links as well ...? ... Thanks for the laugh. I just imagined Harry Potter asking in the wand shop about different wands, one with unicorn tail another with pixie hair.... CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids. . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow. Fozzie is treating a symptom.
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2223	Posted - 2015.04.06 19:23:23 - [228] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: rsantos wrote: Nolak Ataru wrote: Took another system last night with domis, harpies, celestis, and dread fleets. Other side was a no-show Post-Entosis sov will be nothing but Ishtars and Domis and Huginns and Lokis. Drop drones + assist, turn on entosis, go play DOTA2. I don't understand why CCP can't see this. No... post-entosis sov you will still be chasing frigates reinforcing random systems for 4 hours. we will do our best to make sure you not "allowed" to play DOTA2! :P the best will be after june a group like brave can go in and literally reinforce every cfc system from ihub to outpost... then it will be interesting if mittens forces the meatshields.... i mean equal members of the cfc like fcon to save goon space... That depends on whether or not we'll be babysitting the renters in branch.
GeeShizzle MacCloud 584	Posted - 2015.04.06 20:21:08 - [229] - Quote Fozzie / Foxfour... could it be possible to get some degree of CREST endpoint to how often each character is using this module? Much like there's new CREST endpoints detailing how much hp you've rep'd as a logi etc... itd be nice from a org point of view to be able to assign and reward those members doing gods work wielding the Entosis Link for both disruption and interruption. (having a timestamp and location would be absolutely amazing!) not sure if approaching it from a character standpoint or a structure log would be best, potentially structure.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 173	Posted - 2015.04.06 20:31:36 - [230] - Quote Rowells wrote: MeBiatch wrote: rsantos wrote: Nolak Ataru wrote: Took another system last night with domis, harpies, celestis, and dread fleets. Other side was a no-show Post-Entosis sov will be nothing but Ishtars and Domis and Huginns and Lokis. Drop drones + assist, turn on entosis, go play DOTA2. I don't understand why CCP can't see this. No... post-entosis sov you will still be chasing frigates reinforcing random systems for 4 hours. we will do our best to make sure you not "allowed" to play DOTA2! :P the best will be after june a group like brave can go in and literally reinforce every cfc system from ihub to outpost... then it will be interesting if mittens forces the meatshields.... i mean equal members of the cfc like fcon to save goon space... That depends on whether or not we'll be babysitting the renters in branch. From my experience in BoB-tymes, it would be best to either leave them as buffer to hold out on their own as long as possible, giving you time for w/e. Or to revoke all access to stations overnight, seize and extort assets. Going to be a fun-fun Summer. ( -í° -£-û -í°)

Nolak Ataru KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 813	Posted - 2015.04.06 22:28:54 - [231] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Nolak Ataru wrote: Took another system last night with domis, harpies, celestis, and dread fleets. Other side was a no-show Post-Entosis sov will be nothing but Ishtars and Domis and Huginns and Lokis. Drop drones + assist, turn on entosis, go play DOTA2. I don't understand why CCP can't see this. because they can read their own proposal. For god sake. at least TRY. The defending side can ALWAYS escalate back and they can cancel the take over with their OWN entosis link, than you need to defeat the defending fleet, and things jsut faslty escalate the same way as now. The main difference is that this will only happens when people LIVE in a system. If the system is abandoned, there will be no escalation. Again, drop drones and assist. Let the Pantheon Archons put 1 rep each on their designated Loki, and then everyone but the Loki can go play [insert game here] until a hostile cyno goes up or something big warps on grid. If a cyno goes up, unless it's a brick-tanked 1m EHP Proteus, it's going to die fairly quickly depending on the number of Archons / Chimeras on grid. If something warps in, even without TIDI there will be plenty of time for the Loki pilot to tell people to tab back to EVE and get ready to deal with whatever just came in. e: And Brave can do whatever they want but I don't think they're going to commit titans and supers against a defending Pantheon fleet.
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2065	Posted - 2015.04.06 22:42:41 - [232] - Quote I dont get it... e link makes rr not work... so whats this panteon loki thing? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
GeeShizzle MacCloud 587	Posted - 2015.04.06 23:45:33 - [233] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: I dont get it... e link makes rr not work... so whats this panteon loki thing? for control of the grid.
Gyges Skyeye Delusions of Adequacy Get Off My Lawn 19	Posted - 2015.04.06 23:47:04 - [234] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The first cycle of the module is always a "warmup cycle" and has no impact. If you lose lock or the module is disabled for any reason, you'll need to go through that warmup cycle again before you can continue exerting any influence over the structure From a user interface standpoint, can we get some clarity added to the game client on this. Modules all have a green cycle timer for ON, and a red cycle timer for OFF/SHUTTING DOWN. Something like a yellow or orange cycle timer for WARMING UP would probably suffice. It would let us more accurately know what the status of our personal entosis link is. Thanks
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2065	Posted - 2015.04.06 23:57:49 - [235] - Quote GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote: MeBiatch wrote: I dont get it... e link makes rr not work... so whats this panteon loki thing? for control of the grid. What i would do to counter this design wise... make rr stack and based on sig radius. Make sentry drones 50mb and make it so carries can't use sub capital drones. I would then add fittings for fighters and make tech two fighters. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2229	Posted - 2015.04.07 00:06:43 - [236] - Quote Gyges Skyeye wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The first cycle of the module is always a "warmup cycle" and has no impact. If you lose lock or the module is disabled for any reason, you'll need to go through that warmup cycle again before you can continue exerting any influence over the structure From a user interface standpoint, can we get some clarity added to the game client on this. Modules all have a green cycle timer for ON, and a red cycle timer for OFF/SHUTTING DOWN. Something like a yellow or orange cycle timer for WARMING UP would probably suffice. It would let us more accurately know what the status of our personal entosis link is. Thanks the timer on the structure should be the one to have the count down.
Cade Windstalker Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra 340	Posted - 2015.04.07 00:33:43 - [237] - Quote Nolak Ataru wrote: Kagura Nikon wrote: Nolak Ataru wrote: Took another system last night with domis, harpies, celestis, and dread fleets. Other side was a no-show Post-Entosis sov will be nothing but Ishtars and Domis and Huginns and Lokis. Drop drones + assist, turn on entosis, go play DOTA2. I don't understand why CCP can't see this. because they can read their own proposal. For god sake. at least TRY. The defending side can ALWAYS escalate back and they can cancel the take over with their OWN entosis link, than you need to defeat the defending fleet, and things jsut faslty escalate the same way as now. The main difference is that this will only happens when people LIVE in a system. If the system is abandoned, there will be no escalation. Again, drop drones and assist. Let the Pantheon Archons put 1 rep each on their designated Loki, and then everyone but the Loki can go play [insert game here] until a hostile cyno goes up or something big warps on grid. If a cyno goes up, unless it's a brick-tanked 1m EHP Proteus, it's going to die fairly quickly depending on the number of Archons / Chimeras on grid. If something warps in, even without TIDI there will be plenty of time for the Loki pilot to tell people to tab back to EVE and get ready to deal with whatever just came in. e: And Brave can do whatever they want but I don't think they're going to commit titans and supers against a defending Pantheon fleet. This doesn't seem to be any sort of problem directly with the new Sov mechanics, and therefore not exactly relevant to this thread. Besides, if you bring an all drone comp and go AFK I'll warp in a couple of bomber wings and laugh my arse off as I wipe a few billion in assets off the field for little to no cost... There's always a counter if you think hard enough, and if there isn't CCP will nerf the doctrine until there's a counter.
GeeShizzle MacCloud 587	Posted - 2015.04.07 02:02:37 - [238] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote: MeBiatch wrote: I dont get it... e link makes rr not work... so whats this panteon loki thing? for control of the grid. What i would do to counter this design wise... make rr stack and based on sig radius. Make sentry drones 50mb and make it so carries can't use sub capital drones. I would then add fittings for fighters and make tech two fighters. those are some ridiculously huge changes to the game as a whole let alone just to alleviate a pantheon loki doctrine. Considering there are still many many ways of defeating that in game without touching game mechanics or balance. if you're going to pitch into a discussion about game design then please don't post reactively with such insanely OP suggestions until you exhaust all other avenues of countering WITHIN the confines of the games combat systems.
Justin Cody Tri-gun Psychotic Tendencies. 258	Posted - 2015.04.07 02:18:58 - [239] - Quote zerg rush for sov!
Nolak Ataru KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 813	Posted - 2015.04.07 04:04:59 - [240] - Quote Cade Windstalker wrote: Nolak Ataru wrote: Again, drop drones and assist. Let the Pantheon Archons put 1 rep each on their designated Loki, and then everyone but the Loki can go play [insert game here] until a hostile cyno goes up or something big warps on grid. If a cyno goes up, unless it's a brick-tanked 1m EHP Proteus, it's going to die fairly quickly depending on the number of Archons / Chimeras on grid. If something warps in, even without TIDI there will be plenty of time for the Loki pilot to tell people to tab back to EVE and get ready to deal with whatever just came in. e: And Brave can do whatever they want but I don't think they're going to commit titans and supers against a defending Pantheon fleet. This doesn't seem to be any sort of problem directly with the new Sov mechanics, and therefore not exactly relevant to this thread. Besides, if you bring an all drone comp and go AFK I'll warp in a couple of bomber wings and laugh my arse off as I wipe a few billion in assets off the field for little to no cost... There's always a counter if you think hard enough, and if there isn't CCP will nerf the doctrine until there's a counter. It's just bringing Pantheon and Boot Domis back for drone assist. And again, it takes little effort for the Loki pilots to say "Hey, bombers. Pull your drones". Should take 3 seconds or so. Bombs take 10 seconds to detonate. Bombers weren't a counter to Pantheon fleets then, and they won't be a counter to them now. If you expect to bomb the domis off the grid, the only FC I know who stuck around on grid for multiple bomber waves was CSM member corebloodbrothers, so if you're fighting The Volition Cult, you're in luck. It's no big trouble to warp a group of domis off grid to a safe or a planet.



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