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Maelstrom - stop kidding yourselfs

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Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:23:00 - [31] Originally by: Kaylana Syi So what you guys are saying is that you want a low SP sliepnir. Lets not forget you are wasting about 9k of powergrid and need a whole lot of ifs to even do what you want to do with it. If people fly it like this I can't wait to utterly wear them like pants with a Typhoon. Typhoon is better for up close, but require alot more sp too. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:24:00 - [32] I'm in the camp of a Maelstrom beating the Raven. Mostly because I flew Caldari ships for a long time (all Caldari ship skills at 5 and missile types skills at 5) and there is no way in hell someone is going to fit 6 siege II and 2 heavy diminising NOS on this thing AND tank and keep their damage up. Why? Grid and CPU. You need 3 PDU IIs, a RCU II and a CPU II in your lows to fit all that stuff. I actually have to stop using T2 tanking stuff in med so I can fill the 5th med slot. I only have 20 cpu left over. Even if you drop a few T2 things in the medium slots, you still don't have much CPU and grid to go. Sacrificing the heavy NOS for medium nos gives you a bit more playing around room but then a Maelstrom can use its NOS at 20k and if it uses a MWD, then it can stay at that range and NOS away a Raven's cap while the Raven can't use its NOS. Personally, I'm not really a fan of either ship but based on what you can fit on the Raven and what it looks like you can fit on a Maelstrom, I'm betting on the Maelstrom in the hands of a semi-decent pilot.
Rin Eyre Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:25:00 - [33] Originally by: Jim McGregor Well, at least as a autocannon ship, its using both its bonuses. Yeah. Whatever. Throw one web from recon and forget about it.
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:26:00 - [34] Originally by: Keta Min Originally by: Jim McGregor So I dont know... does the ship really suck that bad? nah it's ok. the abaddon makes it look good There's two kind of Amarr on the forums; Those that whine about the Abbadon 'cause it can't sustain for very long, and those that realize it's a better gankageddon.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:29:00 - [35] Originally by: Derran I'm in the camp of a Maelstrom beating the Raven. Mostly because I flew Caldari ships for a long time (all Caldari ship skills at 5 and missile types skills at 5) and there is no way in hell someone is going to fit 6 siege II and 2 heavy diminising NOS on this thing AND tank and keep their damage up. Why? Grid and CPU. You need 3 PDU IIs, a RCU II and a CPU II in your lows to fit all that stuff. I actually have to stop using T2 tanking stuff in med so I can fill the 5th med slot. I only have 20 cpu left over. Even if you drop a few T2 things in the medium slots, you still don't have much CPU and grid to go. Sacrificing the heavy NOS for medium nos gives you a bit more playing around room but then a Maelstrom can use its NOS at 20k and if it uses a MWD, then it can stay at that range and NOS away a Raven's cap while the Raven can't use its NOS. Personally, I'm not really a fan of either ship but based on what you can fit on the Raven and what it looks like you can fit on a Maelstrom, I'm betting on the Maelstrom in the hands of a semi-decent pilot. Yeah, you run into fitting problems for the Raven, thats true. Maybe even for the Maelstrom. Wish I could test... :( And that 37.5% shield boosting bonus might play a big role. Raven doesnt have any defensive bonuses. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:46:00 - [36] Originally by: Jim McGregor Yeah, you run into fitting problems for the Raven, thats true. Maybe even for the Maelstrom. Wish I could test... :( And that 37.5% shield boosting bonus might play a big role. Raven doesnt have any defensive bonuses. that boosting bonus is overrated, to make a visual comparison: lets take the mael same slot layout and stats etc except it doesnt have a boost bonus, now i give you the option btw fitting 1x faction amplifier or 2x large nos in addition to the already existing slots what ya gonna take? Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:49:00 - [37] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/10/2006 16:49:54 Originally by: Tiuwaz Originally by: Jim McGregor Yeah, you run into fitting problems for the Raven, thats true. Maybe even for the Maelstrom. Wish I could test... :( And that 37.5% shield boosting bonus might play a big role. Raven doesnt have any defensive bonuses. that boosting bonus is overrated, to make a visual comparison: lets take the mael same slot layout and stats etc except it doesnt have a boost bonus, now i give you the option btw fitting 1x faction amplifier or 2x large nos in addition to the already existing slots what ya gonna take? Ill take both. Ill use 6 guns with phased plasma, 2 nos, and use the built-in faction amplifier to beat the Raven into the ground. MWD takes one slot, then I use 5 slots for a nice tank, slaps 3 damage mods on there and then 2 nanos to reach the raven faster with the MWD boost. I might also use the 100 m3 drone bay for ecm drones, webber drones or whatever just to tease the Raven who cant do the same. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:51:00 - [38] you are aware that you will do 25% less dmg than a tempest if you sacrifice 2 slots for nos on mael? Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:00:00 - [39] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/10/2006 17:08:35 Originally by: Tiuwaz you are aware that you will do 25% less dmg than a tempest if you sacrifice 2 slots for nos on mael? Tempest 6x 650 II and 2 nos = 689 dps with phased plasma Maelstrom 6x 650 II and 2 nos = 586 dps with phased plasma Im using Ogre II on both of them here too, but Maelstrom has 3 damage mods, Tempest only 2. Tempest wont fit 3 because it will hurt his tank (shared slots for damage/tanking). So there you have 2 ships (Raven vs Maelstrom) nossing eachother and using cap injectors to boost shields. Mael has lower dps than the Tempest would have, but the shield boost bonus helps it against the Ravens higher damage. Maelstrom gains 37.5% more shield per cycle. So in 3 boosts, it will have boosted as much as the Raven in 4. To me, it looks pretty close on paper. There is only one thing... Raven might not have a MWD, which means it can use 6 slots for tanking. Autocannon Maelstrom NEEDS a MWD, there is no question about it. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:06:00 - [40] hehe we can go back forth now, i see what you are pointing at its now down to real testing to prove who is wrong and right i'll stick to my interpretation but if it works thats good, but i'd still favour a 10% hp bonus instead the boost bonus Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:08:00 - [41] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/10/2006 17:08:04 Originally by: Tiuwaz hehe we can go back forth now, i see what you are pointing at its now down to real testing to prove who is wrong and right i'll stick to my interpretation but if it works thats good, but i'd still favour a 10% hp bonus instead the boost bonus Yeah, its an interesting discussion. Try the setups out for me... I cant get on the test server. Account expired... :p --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:10:00 - [42] heh i doubt i'll get on test server but I'll post it if i can test some Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:16:00 - [43] This ship is neither a good arty platform or a good AC platform. The Tempest is a better cross dresser just like the megathron is the better switch hitter than the Hyperion. The faster you pro-maelstrom as is realize that... the faster I can get some sleep. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Horza Otho Minmatar Silver Star Federation	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:17:00 - [44] yes jim, i thought the same, i plan to use a little something like the following for my Mael, 8x dual 650 II / 800 II 1x XL t2 booster 1x em t2 2x invul t2 1x heavy electrochem 1x 28k faction WD 2-3 pdu II 1x dcu 1-2 gyro II 4x berserker webber drones u have ur webbing, scrambling, monster tanking and devastating damage... i dont see anything wrong with this ship tbh. --- Eris Discordia is miiiiiine
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:18:00 - [45] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/10/2006 17:18:59 Originally by: Kaylana Syi This ship is neither a good arty platform or a good AC platform. The Tempest is a better cross dresser just like the megathron is the better switch hitter than the Hyperion. The faster you pro-maelstrom as is realize that... the faster I can get some sleep. You cant sleep until the Maelstrom is agreed to be worthless by everybody? :) I want to see the results from people testing it on the test server... :p --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Traxman	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:23:00 - [46] What happend to the 12th slot ? Was not the Tier3 BSes belived to have 12 low+med slots, seems it only got to 11..
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:23:00 - [47] Edited by: Tiuwaz on 25/10/2006 17:23:02 Originally by: Horza Otho 8x dual 650 II / 800 II 1x XL t2 booster 1x em t2 2x invul t2 1x heavy electrochem 1x 28k faction WD 2-3 pdu II 1x dcu 1-2 gyro II 4x berserker webber drones u have ur webbing, scrambling, monster tanking and devastating damage... i dont see anything wrong with this ship tbh. no monster tanking with webbing, scrambling and mwd and really where is that devastating dmg ppl see? Oo 6% more dps and 1 more heavy drone thats roughly the same ( abit less) than a tempest with launchers and i never ever would have called my tempi a ship with devastating ac dmg Oo Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:26:00 - [48] Originally by: Traxman What happend to the 12th slot ? Was not the Tier3 BSes belived to have 12 low+med slots, seems it only got to 11.. no 12th slot, and thats oke, would have infinged too much on faction BS Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.25 18:01:00 - [49] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/10/2006 17:18:59 Originally by: Kaylana Syi This ship is neither a good arty platform or a good AC platform. The Tempest is a better cross dresser just like the megathron is the better switch hitter than the Hyperion. The faster you pro-maelstrom as is realize that... the faster I can get some sleep. You cant sleep until the Maelstrom is agreed to be worthless by everybody? :) I want to see the results from people testing it on the test server... :p Its a bloody poor SP sleipnir. That is not what its supposed to be. Look at what people are doing with it... YOU CANNOT TELL ME IT ISN'T WAISTING EITHER HALF ITS STATS WITH AC FITTING OR HALF ITS BONUSES WITH ARTILLERY. What does that spell? Typhoon bullcrap all over again. Thanks for your lack of progress. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Vengarioth Skullshanks Minmatar Vril Werke Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.25 18:18:00 - [50] Good thread there mate, I myself was thinking the same as an active tank just isn't going to be viable in a fleet enviroment. You are better off fitting the meds beside the required SB, Tracking Comps with some kind of ewar anyway. So what's the other option - a shield tanked Autocannon slugger, and i really like it. Now let's change the slot layout to 8-7-4 and everything will be okay. In fleets you will have more space for ewar, or a small passive tank. And in small gang Warfare another med is always very valuable. Why not ? Because you can tackle tank and deal dmg all the same (more or less). Nothing a Hyperion or Abbadon can't already do.
Vera Nosfyu Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.25 19:34:00 - [51] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/10/2006 17:18:59 Originally by: Kaylana Syi This ship is neither a good arty platform or a good AC platform. The Tempest is a better cross dresser just like the megathron is the better switch hitter than the Hyperion. The faster you pro-maelstrom as is realize that... the faster I can get some sleep. You cant sleep until the Maelstrom is agreed to be worthless by everybody? :) I want to see the results from people testing it on the test server... :p Its a bloody poor SP sleipnir. That is not what its supposed to be. Look at what people are doing with it... YOU CANNOT TELL ME IT ISN'T WAISTING EITHER HALF ITS STATS WITH AC FITTING OR HALF ITS BONUSES WITH ARTILLERY. What does that spell? Typhoon bullcrap all over again. Thanks for your lack of progress. You can use it with artillery and not waste its bonuses. Who says that you can only use artillery in fleets? A full rack of 1400's can go a long way in a skirmish. ----------------------------------------------------------- "Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.25 19:37:00 - [52] Originally by: Vera Nosfyu You can use it with artillery and not waste its bonuses. Who says that you can only use artillery in fleets? A full rack of 1400's can go a long way in a skirmish. if you are in a skirmish close enough to the heat that the shield boost bonus would matter then you are too close for your arties to hit anything Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Rin Eyre Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.25 20:49:00 - [53] Edited by: Rin Eyre on 25/10/2006 20:50:34 For a ship that look like shark with wings - it's too slow. SLOW. SLOOOOW. Its speed is killing me literaly, physically, methaphoricaly and whatelse... it was drawn for speed, it's clear... why oh why it was made so slow for some balance purpose... ...if someone in charge reading this... what do you want to take away from it for -10% mass and +50m/s instead? P.S. I've been told that it has shield HP equal to Machariel... with exactly two times faster recharge.... wtf? edit: and capacitor/recharge little better too... why?
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.25 21:41:00 - [54] Originally by: Tiuwaz Originally by: Vera Nosfyu You can use it with artillery and not waste its bonuses. Who says that you can only use artillery in fleets? A full rack of 1400's can go a long way in a skirmish. if you are in a skirmish close enough to the heat that the shield boost bonus would matter then you are too close for your arties to hit anything amen brother Tiuwaz WTF do people want to do... sit 60km from thier targets and hurl phased plasma? LOL what a joke. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Rin Eyre Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.26 05:49:00 - [55] Quake L gives 20km optimal now... on 1400 T2... that's pretty close. Isn't that AC range?
Kahor Minmatar Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.26 07:44:00 - [56] If you are at 20km, you might as well use AC for less pwg and cpu requirement and better dps as well... ---------------- An eye for an eye make a whole world blind.
Cail Fortestan M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 09:29:00 - [57] Note that the Tier 3 BSs will be about double to cost of the current Tier 2 BSs, and you clearly don't get a lot more for your money. Build cost of Maelstrom is about double the Tempest in minerals. -- M. Corp.
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.26 09:41:00 - [58] Originally by: Cail Fortestan Note that the Tier 3 BSs will be about double to cost of the current Tier 2 BSs, and you clearly don't get a lot more for your money. Build cost of Maelstrom is about double the Tempest in minerals. maximum insurance for Maelstrom was 142 mill (or 146?) on Sisi, expecting the price range from 140-150 on average for it also i am seriously underwhelmed by the shield boost bonus, its like a bigger version of the cyclone without an extra slot to make up for the suckiness agility not as bad as i feared, but top speed and acceleration are horrid (but that was expected with that mass) Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.

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