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File
Gallente
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:57:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Pottsey
“Now as far as tanking superiority - it's obvious. Same slot layout, better cap, better grid, huge resists oh and Hawk gets a bonus to boost.”
One big problem the AF CPU is a low enough that I cannot fit my tank but instead have to swap to weaker tank with less tanking modules. Also for the Gallente ships the slot lays outs different but not sure if that’s worse or better without running numbers. It might be better.
You are neglecting the fact that a cloak uses 30-60CPU making the difference in CPU far less of a factor.
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Nesa
Antares Fleet Yards
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:35:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
With the HP buff I think now is the perfect time and logical chance to make SBs use torps instead of cruise missiles.
Wouldn't that be more of a nerf? I mean, they have less range, take longer to hit, and will probably do less damage to any target that a SB has a hope in hell of killing.
The SB needs a strong alpha strike, if it is to suffer all these penalties making a second strike impossible. Might as well go increase ROF amazingly and do something weird like nerfing ammo capacity. Give it lots of power over the short term, then falling off to not so good DPS as to stop it being over powered.
Without them warping cloaked, they can't really sneak up on enemies. So you have to give them some chance of pulling off an ambush. I've yet to bother fitting a cloak to my 'stealth' bomber, and it hasn't seen much time out of the hangar either. It seems more effective warping in on targets than decloaking, and warping off is MORE effective than cloaking, as you can do that when locked at least.
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Scragg
Caldari
Tyrell Corp
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:50:00 -
[33]
IMHO... I fly a Manticore frequently. It's not a solo hunter. It's best used in small groups or as support to a friendly cruiser/recon group.
The only thing I might change is making a stealth bombers missiles hit after it cloaks. But... I would not want to see it be able to uncloak, lock, fire, and recloak. There would be zero challenge in that scenario. Maybe uncloak, lock, fire, and as long as your missiles have been in flight for at least X number of seconds you can re-cloak and they will still hit.
Another possibility... decrease it's signature and increase it's damage a bit.
Possibly say it's cloak drastically decreases it's signature for x number of seconds after decloaking or something similar.
There are all kinds of possible ways to keep a stealth bomber stealthy and somewhat dangerious without giving it to much lovin and making it the ultimate killer.
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File
Gallente
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:12:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Scragg
IMHO... I fly a Manticore frequently. It's not a solo hunter. It's best used in small groups or as support to a friendly cruiser/recon group.
I have shown time and time again that an interceptor or AF fills this role FAR better and for less ISK.
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar
Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:14:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Scragg
There are all kinds of possible ways to keep a stealth bomber stealthy and somewhat dangerious without giving it to much lovin and making it the ultimate killer.
Why don't they change the stupid turret bonus to a explosion radius bonus. That would be a nice boost. I like the ROF bonus/Ammo Capacity nerf combination too.
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Rafaello Cruel
Gallente
Rave Technologies Inc.
Miners With Attitude
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:51:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Scragg
IMHO... I fly a Manticore
.....
yea.. its only manticore with 3 launchers...
rest bombers suxx
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best regards
Rafaello Cruel
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File
Gallente
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:52:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Slash Harnet
Why don't they change the stupid turret bonus to a explosion radius bonus. That would be a nice boost. I like the ROF bonus/Ammo Capacity nerf combination too.
Well because SBs already have an explosion radius bonus which is what lets them hit frigs in the first place.
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Kipkruide
Quantum Dynamics
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Posted - 2006.10.27 10:33:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Kipkruide on 27/10/2006 10:34:00
well i fly em now and again, but really just for fun, if you want to do anything serious they are well, obsolete. This ship needs a rework, all 4 of them to make them usefull in some role in kali. Atm they are expensive paperweights. :)
Go Go Tuxford
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Pilk
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.27 15:26:00 -
[39]
A Manticore is the single most player-skill-intensive ship in the game. The correct procedure for flying one requires ridiculous levels of perfect timing. It goes something like this:
- Deactivate cloak near the beginning of a cloak-cycle, as we'll need to reactivate quickly.
- Prime weapons and dampeners.
- When cloak deactivates, begin locking target.
- Activate sensor booster.
- Once weapons have fired, hit cloak again.
- Prime dampeners (and, optionally, weapons, if you think you'll need them again).
- Wait for missiles to near target, and computing an appropriate delta for the length of the cloak cycle, decloak just before missiles hit, begin targeting, and activate sensor booster.
This relies on three peculiarities about cloaks, sensor dampners and missile damage while cloaked:
- The cloak reactivation delay is based not on when the cloak shuts off, but when you press the button to shut the cloak off.
- Missiles don't do damage if, at the moment they hit, you're cloaked, but they don't mind if you've been cloaked while they were in flight.
- Sensor dampeners will function for their full cycle, even if you no longer have the target locked.
Now, this is horrifically complex and seems to rely on bizarre interactions between modules that, at first glance, seem pretty absurd. And after all of this, even with a half-dozen friends, you can only BARELY kill a well-tanked t1 cruiser. So, in other words, awesome player skills + 700 million isk = ganking a t1 cruiser, assuming he doesn't just warp off. Compare to an assault frigate, which can also tackle while dealing this kind of DPS, and it's very hard to justify deployment of Manticores in the field.
To top it all off, the warp problem is beyond the pale--a Manticore shouldn't need to fit a cap battery to warp more than 60-odd AU with WDO III and Energy Management IV.
Now, I don't mind going around with a couple friends with 700 million isk worth of ships that we're unlikely to lose if we play all of our cards right, in terms of activating everything at exactly the right time, and bringing an Arazu to tackle, and so on. But given a 25-50% HP boost? Now we're rolling out with a billion isk (remember the Arazu and his covops cloak), and even if we do everything right, we're either not going to kill the enemy's t1 cruiser, or we'll be losing an Arazu in the process.
Summary:
- Stealth bombers are usable, though difficult to use, a pain in the butt to fit, hideously expensive, and unusable in anything but a gang designed for them and against one or two targets.
- Stealth bombers soon WON'T be usable due to HP increase.
- The Manticore (and possibly others; I haven't flown any others) needs a serious kick in the pants regarding warp capabilities.
- The only decent use I've found for a stealth bomber so far (which, sorry, I'm not going to share on the forums, though any dev who's curious is welcome to contact me) doesn't even fit a cloak.
There's my essay for the day; let me know what you think.
--P
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Dark Plant
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Posted - 2006.10.27 16:52:00 -
[40]
Sounds to me like the Developers are purposly nerf'ing stealth bombers into the ground.
Unless they can explain otherwise.
Developers don't like stealth bombers?
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar
Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2006.10.27 17:17:00 -
[41]
Originally by: File
Originally by: Slash Harnet
Why don't they change the stupid turret bonus to a explosion radius bonus. That would be a nice boost. I like the ROF bonus/Ammo Capacity nerf combination too.
Well because SBs already have an explosion radius bonus which is what lets them hit frigs in the first place.
Can someone confirm they get an explosion radius bonus?
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voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.27 17:23:00 -
[42]
The main aim of the dev's changes to the combat paradigm in Kali is to change the combat length giving pilots more time to react during combat. Also this allows them to add stuff like sub-system targeting and laser overloading. Thus the possibility for more tactics in battle.
So they have increase ship durability across the board by 50%, also ship rigging favours tanking as well. As a result ships that rely on a high alpha strike like the tempest or whole ship classes like stealth bombers will suffer.
If ccp were to buff the alpha strike back up, it would be counter productive to their new paradigm.
I personal don't see how stealth bombers in their current incarnation have any place in kali. Thus stealth bomber need to be redesigned.
How I don't know - but a dive bomber anti battle ship role would be cool.
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RoDs84
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Posted - 2006.10.27 23:19:00 -
[43]
I imagine that all stealth bombers can have 4 launcher hardpoints instead of useless turret hardpoints, so all of them can fill their high slots with 4 cruise launchers and 1 cloaking device. Meds and lows can be the same.
So you can say, whats the difference of SB of different factions, the answer is the damage type of the cruise missile that the faction-frigate skill level gives bonus, Amarr - EM, Gallente Thermal, Minmatar Explosive, Caldari Kinetic.
"Faction Frigate Skill Bonus: 19.65% reduction in Cruise Launcher powergrid needs and 5% bonus to Cruise Missile X damage per level
Covert Ops Skill Bonus: 5% reduction in Cruise Launcher powergrid needs and 25% bonus to cloaked velocity per level"
The boni above can be an option for all SBs, where X is the faction spec dmg type.
With this, and Advanced Weapon Upgrades and Covert Ops @ lvl4 a cruise launcher needs:
1250 x 0.92(Advanced Weapon Upgrades @ lvl4) x 0.0175(Faction Frigate Skill Bonus) x 0.8(Covert Ops Skill Bonus @ lvl4) = 16.1 MW on a SB. 4 of them needs 64.4 MW.
So its possible to let them have enough grid to be able to mount all 4 cruise launchers plus 5 for the other modules ( 1 grid demand for each ) when Advanced Weapon Upgrades and Covert Ops skills are @ lvl 4 and at least 2 +10 grid MAPC is needed to be mounted in the lows.
That way Stealth Bombers will still be frigile while they can kill small targets very quickly as they meant to be. They will be much more entertaining and feared toys but still can be popped in a single mistake. Also the meaningless difference between the Manticore and the others will be removed by the way.
Any further thoughts?
RoD
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Anngellica
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Posted - 2006.10.27 23:46:00 -
[44]
Wont giving the stealth bomber the abilty to use the cov ops cloak II make the cov ops ship useless?
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voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.28 01:15:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Anngellica
Wont giving the stealth bomber the abilty to use the cov ops cloak II make the cov ops ship useless?
they would still warp faster and have the scan launcher bonus
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Jacob Holland
Gallente
FIRMA
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.29 12:04:00 -
[46]
I've only ever been on the recieving end of Stealth Bombers, but the idea that they can't kill a T1 frig before being locked is just wrong.
One salvo from a Manticore will take an Incursus into structure without much trouble and can do so long before the Incursus gets close to lock range (although I'm not sure whether I'd have suffered more or less damage if I'd left my MWD on). The Incursus can warp out if it survives, or warp out while the missles are in flight but that means you've won.
Stealth bombers are designed for guerilla activities rather than outright war surely, their job is to sit with friends near a belt in a hostile's known mining system, wait for the barges to show up, wait for the ore supplies to start flowing and start popping barges and haulers. This is a job they were well suited for, the fact that the price of cloaks has soared is an unrelated (though significant) problem.
With old cloak prices a gang of three Manticore pilots was a much more cost effective way of harrassing enemy logistics than a cloaked battleship.
Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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Zoxia
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.10.29 12:35:00 -
[47]
I think there are more patches on the way?? isnt this a two part patch?? kali 1 and kali 2?? until all are implemtented and in place kinda hard to make absolutely judgements.
Alot of these complaints look more like agenda.
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YuckFou
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Posted - 2006.10.29 23:31:00 -
[48]
a dev reply would be good 8(
I would also say give them a 25-50% damage increase.
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Chronojam
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Posted - 2006.10.30 07:41:00 -
[49]
Hell, I'm concerned about the state of stealth bombers NOW.
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Mallakk
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Posted - 2006.10.30 08:24:00 -
[50]
No devs ever answered a single thread about the bomber issue.
They simply dont care about them, have better things to do (like adding new bu. err stuff in game) and probably waits for this ship class to vanish by itself.
The cyno/cloak bug is present for months, completely breaking a ship line role, why should they care about our bombers ?
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Ficti0n
FireTech
Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.30 17:28:00 -
[51]
Originally by: File
I am deeply concerned about the state of the stealth bombers in Kali.
Agreed
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Sean Dillon
Caldari
Privateers
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Posted - 2006.10.30 17:38:00 -
[52]
I agree the only thing usefull about a sb now is that it can cloak. It lacks firepower, toughness and is weak.
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Thecle Vifargent
GandY Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.30 20:27:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Sean Dillon
I agree the only thing usefull about a sb now is that it can cloak. It lacks firepower, toughness and is weak.
Actually, any ship can cloak...
But well, bomber have some *few* bonus who make a non covert ops cloak usable...
It only lack everything else...
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FactorzGT
Quantum Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.31 01:43:00 -
[54]
Originally by: File
Edited by: File on 25/10/2006 16:43:08
I am deeply concerned about the state of the stealth bombers in Kali.
They are suffering from two major issues due to the changes in Kali:
1. The damage required to kill a target has been increased by 25-50% and thus so has the number of salvoes. With that the chance of detection and the chance of the target escaping have also been increased.
2. As a T2 ship the SB's get the 25% HP bonus, but since they get very limited resists bonuses, this puts them at LESS HP than the T1 frigs making them extremely fragile.
To put it simply, the SB does NOT benefit from the HP boost since it is not capable of taking fire or fitting a tank but suffers very heavily from the relative loss of firepower.
As is, the SB has little chance of taking down anything solo and is too fragile for roaming ops due to the high possibility of being decloaked by friendlies.
I think the easiest fix is to increase the damage bonuses on the SBs by 100%, meaning taking the cruise missile damage bonus from 5% to 10%. This is needed to keep the relative firepower of the SB intact and give it a chance against the HP boosted targets. (Note: The increase of 100% to the BONUS is needed to bring the TOTAL damage up by 50%)
Yes, this will negate the HP bonus - but it'll give the SB its role back. A SB is supposed to be able to kill its target quickly before it itself is locked, otherwise it is useless.
The reason other T2 ships do not need any such boost is that they are capable of taking damage and benefit from the HP boost, the SBs on the other hand do not. They are not ships that are designed to take any amount of damage, and you will not find anyone flying a SB with a viable tank setup.
edit - fixed bonus %
STAMPED
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Rafaello Cruel
Gallente
Rave Technologies Inc.
Miners With Attitude
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Posted - 2006.10.31 15:11:00 -
[55]
no dev answered :/
please... repair bombers in cali 1
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best regards
Rafaello Cruel
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Mallakk
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Posted - 2006.11.03 08:11:00 -
[56]
Its Kali :) but fix bomber is still a good idea...
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