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File
Gallente eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.25 16:33:00 -
[1]
Edited by: File on 25/10/2006 16:43:08 I am deeply concerned about the state of the stealth bombers in Kali.
They are suffering from two major issues due to the changes in Kali:
1. The damage required to kill a target has been increased by 25-50% and thus so has the number of salvoes. With that the chance of detection and the chance of the target escaping have also been increased.
2. As a T2 ship the SB's get the 25% HP bonus, but since they get very limited resists bonuses, this puts them at LESS HP than the T1 frigs making them extremely fragile.
To put it simply, the SB does NOT benefit from the HP boost since it is not capable of taking fire or fitting a tank but suffers very heavily from the relative loss of firepower.
As is, the SB has little chance of taking down anything solo and is too fragile for roaming ops due to the high possibility of being decloaked by friendlies.
I think the easiest fix is to increase the damage bonuses on the SBs by 100%, meaning taking the cruise missile damage bonus from 5% to 10%. This is needed to keep the relative firepower of the SB intact and give it a chance against the HP boosted targets. (Note: The increase of 100% to the BONUS is needed to bring the TOTAL damage up by 50%)
Yes, this will negate the HP bonus - but it'll give the SB its role back. A SB is supposed to be able to kill its target quickly before it itself is locked, otherwise it is useless.
The reason other T2 ships do not need any such boost is that they are capable of taking damage and benefit from the HP boost, the SBs on the other hand do not. They are not ships that are designed to take any amount of damage, and you will not find anyone flying a SB with a viable tank setup.
edit - fixed bonus %
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EvilNate
Caldari Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.25 16:34:00 -
[2]
SB's need a serious fix really
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Athomis
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Posted - 2006.10.25 18:04:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Athomis on 25/10/2006 18:05:41 Edited by: Athomis on 25/10/2006 18:04:38 Just allow SB to warp cloaked,but with no a lock time reduction on Cov Ops cloak. The argument for not allowing SB warp cloaking is a moot point now we have force recons,and future probe scanning. With the increase in ships HPs,I find myself asking the question,which is more deadly to frigs and cruisers,an Arazu Rapier Pilgrim or a paper thin SB with Cruise Missiles? Stealth should mean stealth
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File
Gallente eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.25 18:23:00 -
[4]
My initial math was wrong, sorry...
Lets assume we have a bomber that fires 3 cruise missiles that do 333.3dmg each. Thus the total pre bonus damage is 1000. Let's also assume that the pilot has Covert Ops 5 and gets full bonus.
So the numbers are as follows: Current Stock Damage - 1000 Bonus 25% - (5%*5) - 250 Total Damage After Bonus - 1250
With a 10% bonus this would be - 1500
1250*1.5 = 1875, NOT 1500.
So the bonus needs to be more than 10% to increase the damage…
Stock Damage: 1000 Bonus: 87.5% - (17.5%*5) - 875 Total After Bonus: 1875
Seems awfully high doesn't it?
But it isn't.
A T1 ship that had 2200HP Pre Kali will now have 3300 and will still require the same number of salvoes to take out, 1875 x 2 = 3750
Without the increased bonus it would have taken 1250 x 3 = 3750 to take out the 3300HP ship.
So the number of salvos to take out a ship has not changed with a bonus of 17.5%.
At the very least the SB should get the bonus changed to 15% per rank as that'll give it approximately 37.5% damage boost (1750 total from base of 1000) as that's the average of the 25%-50% HP boost given to ships. An additional 25% damage bonus alone would not be enough.
With an additional 25% damage bonus the current damage the ship would do 1560 per salvo. Lets bring back the 3300 HP Kali ship, with 1560x2 = 3120 you'd still need another salvo to kill the ship.
Keep in mind that all these numbers are without resists taken into consideration, the reality is that the SBs hit for FAR less than the theoretical maximum damage.
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Grez
Minmatar The Raven Warriors
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Posted - 2006.10.25 19:16:00 -
[5]
Originally by: File
A SB is supposed to be able to kill its target quickly before it itself is locked, otherwise it is useless.
I-WIN button right there. ---
Cache Clearer
Still waiting for a Wrangler-edit! |
File
Gallente eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.25 20:03:00 -
[6]
Edited by: File on 25/10/2006 20:03:28
Originally by: Grez
Originally by: File
A SB is supposed to be able to kill its target quickly before it itself is locked, otherwise it is useless.
I-WIN button right there.
Clearly you've never flown a SB.
It has 1000hp. 1000. Do you understand just how little that is? If it cloaks before the cruise missiles impact, they do NO damge. None. It cannot cloak once locked. It has virtually no chance against multiple targets. (You sensor dampen one, other locks, you die.) It has no means at all of fitting a tank. A capacitor so small that it cannot even warp long distances with maxed cap and warp skills. It cost 50M-100m due to the absurd cloak prices and T2 launchers.
Even with all that I ask, you'd still have a ship that for at the very least 50m will be able to blow up a t1 300k frig and maybe harass a 5m cruiser.
I-Win button? You must be joking.
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Scoundrelus
Unseen Jihad
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Posted - 2006.10.25 20:10:00 -
[7]
Stealth Bomber's role is to take out small vessels and/or act as support for larger ones with long range Cruise bombardment. It shouldn't be able to take out Cruisers unless they have crappy pilots. =============================================== We are Watching You. |
File
Gallente eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.25 21:05:00 -
[8]
Edited by: File on 25/10/2006 21:07:31
Originally by: Scoundrelus Stealth Bomber's role is to take out small vessels and/or act as support for larger ones with long range Cruise bombardment. It shouldn't be able to take out Cruisers unless they have crappy pilots.
Be that as it may, it cannot do either.
Long range bombardment? No can do. If you cloak before impact, no damage. This puts your engagement range at 30-50km MAX. Anything beyond that guarantees that you will be locked.
Take down small vessels? With the changes, and with fury cruise loaded it'd take ~25 seconds to kill a T1 frig.
Here comes the math.
Let's start by trying to do as much damage per salvo as we can.
With Cruise Spec 4, Rapid Launch 5, T2 launchers and a T2 BCU you can get your rate of fire down to about 11.3s. Each missile will do a theoretical 607.5 using Fury ammo and warhead upgrades 4.
So that means you can deal a theoretical 1822.5 - that's not taking into account issues like sig, speed nor resists.
So that means that every 11.3s you can do 1822.5dmg - oops. No it doesn't! There's flight time...
So let's assume that we are engaging at 30km, using fury cruise, with missile projection 4, those will travel at 2450m/s. That means it'd take 12.2seconds for them to impact.
This means that as a result you will be a sitting duck for 12s before you do any damage. Thats 12s during which you can be shot at, locked, or the target can just warp off. As is, it would take a minimum of 24 seconds to kill a t1 frig using fury cruise. Your damage table would look like this:
12.2s - 1822 damage 23.5s - 3644 damage 34.8s - 5466 damage 46.1s - 7288 damage
There are very very few ships in the game that cannot do 1000 damage in those 12s that's needed to turn your SB into a can full of expensive loot.
Ok, so we cannot use Fury missiles due to the slow travel speed. So thats' not an option for damage. So lets try Arbs and regular cruise missiles.
Same skills as above, arb launcher, you're looking at 506.25dmg, velocity of 5,250m/s and refire rate of 12.05s.
This means your salvo will do 1518 damage and will require 5.7s to get to the target at 30km, once again assuming sig over 40m, no resists, speed under 700m/s.
It takes another 12s to fire the 2nd round, which will impact 18.75s after the initial engagment.
So here is your damage table. 5.7s - 1518 damage 18.75s - 3036 damage 30.75s - 4554 damage 42.75s - 6072 damage
So lets see, what can we kill in our first salvo? A Shuttle - YES - If he sits and waits for 5.7s A Pod - YES - If he sits and waits for 5.7s Interceptor? - No. Not enough damage due to resists & signature. AF - If it's AFK. Other than that, you're dead. Covops - Maybe, depends on resists. But really, what can't? SB - Yeah! That you can pop! 1000 hp, poor resists, blow it! T1 Frig - Varies. After Kali - NO Industrials - No
Second salvo?
Idiot interceptor who didn't get the message to warp off. Idiot industrial who is AFK. T1 frig who is too nub to warp off.
So if the role of the SB is to kill shuttles, than yes, it excels at it.
If it's role is to kill frigs, it's not very good at it. A destroyer would do so much better it's not even funny, nevermind the new Drake which will obliterate them.
If you feel that I'm somehow wrong, please show me how, but don't post vague statements about the "roles" of the SB or "I-Win" button.
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Pottsey
Gallente Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.10.25 21:07:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Pottsey on 25/10/2006 21:07:14 ôIt has no means at all of fitting a tank.ö Not true I have a strong tank fitted to mine I dont see any problem with ships haveing more hitpoints. Passive shield tanking guide click here |
File
Gallente eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.25 21:09:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 25/10/2006 21:07:14 “It has no means at all of fitting a tank.” Not true I have a strong tank fitted to mine I dont see any problem with ships haveing more hitpoints.
Please be more exact. Ship type, fitting etc.
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Pottsey
Gallente Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.10.25 21:18:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Pottsey on 25/10/2006 21:20:14 "Please be more exact. Ship type, fitting etc." I am not logged in right now but my Stealth Bomber has something like 2100 shield hitpoints and 15/hps regen with 37.5/75/71.88/56.25 resistance. With room from a better tank once I get more skills. ThatÆs now without the hitpoint change. Depending on the resitance hit I can just about tank an Interceptor.
So I last a lot more then 12 seconds against most targets. Passive shield tanking guide click here |
File
Gallente eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.25 21:27:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Pottsey "Please be more exact. Ship type, fitting etc." I am not logged in right now but my Stealth Bomber has something like 2100 shield hitpoints and 15/hps regen with 37.5/75/71.88/56.25 resistance. With room from a better tank once I get more skills. That’s now without the hitpoint change.
So I last a lot more then 12 seconds against most targets.
I'd love to know how you managed to fit a tank and still keep the sensor booster, dampener and passive targeter.
I have to wonder why you bother to fit a cloak with such a setup since you will almost certainly get locked without boosters.
If you have a setup that is not able to use the recloaking abilities of the SB, why fly one? Surley an AF would fit that playstyle better. Afterall, you can put a cloak on those too.
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Pottsey
Gallente Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.10.25 22:16:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Pottsey on 25/10/2006 22:23:48 ôI'd love to know how you managed to fit a tank and still keep the sensor booster, dampener and passive targeter.ö I tend to work in gangs so I donÆt need all the modules. I donÆt use passive targeters as I find it a waste of a module slots. Any decent enemies are going see you even with a passive targeter.
Most people fit Sensor Dampers as they cannot tank so they try and avoid damage by using dampers. I can tank so I let damage hit me instead of avoiding damage. You cannot do both you have to choose. Well you could get another gang member to use dampers while you tank. I like to let the Recon ships use dampers and EW modules while I deal damage and tank. In my mind its not the SB job to do EW its not an EW ship, in my gangs I like each ship to have its roles not eveything doing EW.
As for the sensor booster itÆs in 2 of my 3 setups. ItÆs a tough choice between a sensor booster or a stronger tank. I still have a lot skills to train so my setups is constantly changing and I havenÆt made my mind up which combination is best. But my point is you can tank Stealth bomber and still fit cloak, T2 launchers & a Sensor booster T2
In theory my setup fits a cloak and T2 launchers, I say theory as my skills only let me fit T1 launchers.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2006.10.25 22:23:00 -
[14]
There is also a rig that is almost specifically for the SB. It lowers the lock time after unclocking. That should help your little 'problem' a little.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.10.25 22:26:00 -
[15]
With the HP buff I think now is the perfect time and logical chance to make SBs use torps instead of cruise missiles.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Kyle Kehrer
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Posted - 2006.10.25 22:39:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Kyle Kehrer on 25/10/2006 22:41:03
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 25/10/2006 22:23:48 ôI'd love to know how you managed to fit a tank and still keep the sensor booster, dampener and passive targeter.ö I tend to work in gangs so I donÆt need all the modules. I donÆt use passive targeters as I find it a waste of a module slots. Any decent enemies are going see you even with a passive targeter.
Most people fit Sensor Dampers as they cannot tank so they try and avoid damage by using dampers. I can tank so I let damage hit me instead of avoiding damage. You cannot do both you have to choose. Well you could get another gang member to use dampers while you tank. I like to let the Recon ships use dampers and EW modules while I deal damage and tank. In my mind its not the SB job to do EW its not an EW ship, in my gangs I like each ship to have its roles not eveything doing EW.
As for the sensor booster itÆs in 2 of my 3 setups. ItÆs a tough choice between a sensor booster or a stronger tank. I still have a lot skills to train so my setups is constantly changing and I havenÆt made my mind up which combination is best. But my point is you can tank Stealth bomber and still fit cloak, T2 launchers & a Sensor booster T2
In theory my setup fits a cloak and T2 launchers, I say theory as my skills only let me fit T1 launchers.
Please state which stealth bomber you used and what your prime fitting for it is (full list of modules), otherwise I fail to see how its possible you managed to fit such a tank while maintaining the gank ability of the SB.
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.10.25 22:46:00 -
[17]
+1 launcher hard point and high slot for all stealth bombers (along with relevant PG and CPU of course).
+50% damage on 3 of them, +33% on the third.
Closes the gap between the manticore and others and compensates for the 50% hp.
Zarch AlDain
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Pottsey
Gallente Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.10.25 22:50:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Pottsey on 25/10/2006 22:52:24 "Please state which stealth bomber you used and what your prime fitting for it is (full list of modules), otherwise I fail to see how its possible you managed to fit such a tank while maintaining the gank ability of the SB."
I spent a lot of time figuring out the best setups and with the amount of enemies I have on here not sure I should post my current setup. One of the best advantages I have in combat is the surprise of a tanked bomber.
Below are some of my old setups I used to gather data. It should be enough for people to figure out whatÆs best for them. They can further be enhanced by the 2 cheap shield implants and donÆt forget Leadership for 10% faster targeting and Siege Warfare for as stronger tank with more HP regen.
Ship Nemesis
invul field shield recharger T2 med shield extender T2 Small shield extender T2 aux aux
cloak, T2 launchers invul field med azeotropic extender small azeotropic extender Sensor booster T2 aux aux
cloak, T2 launchers invul field small azeotropic extender small azeotropic extender Sensor booster T2 BCU aux
EDIT:In my notes I didnÆt write down the Invul fields Tech lvl. I no the middle setup was T2 field. I assume the other two are T2 as well but not got time to check. Passive shield tanking guide click here |
File
Gallente eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.25 22:50:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Pottsey
I tend to work in gangs so I don’t need all the modules. I don’t use passive targeters as I find it a waste of a module slots. Any decent enemies are going see you even with a passive targeter.
Most people fit Sensor Dampers as they cannot tank so they try and avoid damage by using dampers. I can tank so I let damage hit me instead of avoiding damage. You cannot do both you have to choose. Well you could get another gang member to use dampers while you tank. I like to let the Recon ships use dampers and EW modules while I deal damage and tank. In my mind its not the SB job to do EW its not an EW ship, in my gangs I like each ship to have its roles not eveything doing EW.
As for the sensor booster it’s in 2 of my 3 setups. It’s a tough choice between a sensor booster or a stronger tank. I still have a lot skills to train so my setups is constantly changing and I haven’t made my mind up which combination is best. But my point is you can tank Stealth bomber and still fit cloak, T2 launchers & a Sensor booster T2
In theory my setup fits a cloak and T2 launchers, I say theory as my skills only let me fit T1 launchers.
I now see how you're using the SB, and I have to wonder if you really won't be better off with an AF. I'm not trying to be insulting, but really, if you act as a tank, a Hawk will be an imeasurably better tank, comparable in damage and cheaper to fit! So really, why would you fly an SB in that role?
I always saw an SB as a ship capable of operating solo or with another SB behind enemy lines to disrupt travel and mining ops against lone targets with little risk. This has become far less feasible now than it has been. The cost of the fitted SB has never been worth it's abilities, but now it's just absurd. (And before people start posting "I-Win!", one on one, a 50-100m ship SHOULD be able to take down a lone T1 frig without comming close to death itself.)
As far as fitting torps on an SB. The T1 torps would be useless as they are too slow unless the SB gets a massive missile velocity bonus. The T2 Javelins would have been great - except those are being nerfed so that's an iffy proposition.
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Pottsey
Gallente Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.10.25 22:59:00 -
[20]
ôI now see how you're using the SB, and I have to wonder if you really won't be better off with an AF.ö I donÆt have the skills for the AF and I like the Stealth Factor of bombers. Also you expect a tanked AF you donÆt expect a tanked SB it catchÆs people off guard. Doing something the enemy donÆt expect that works is always an advantage in combat.
ôbut really, if you act as a tank, a Hawk will be an imeasurably better tank, comparable in damage and cheaper to fit!ö WhatÆs its DPS and tank along with price? I never did a comparison of AF V Bombers I wrote those off as ships I would never fly. Not because they are bad they just donÆt appal to me
Check my modules above apart from the cloak everythingÆs dirt cheap. My SB is very expandable and cheap to replace. Sometimes its worth takeing the cloak off and just going hunting for a bit of fun. Nice PvE ship as well I used to takes newbieÆs around low lvl complexÆs for training.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
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Liru Okami
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Posted - 2006.10.25 23:13:00 -
[21]
I use a SB for anti pirate ops but even before that i used fof cruise to avoid having to lock on at all. makes things that much faster it's still not as effective vs the money and time i spent on it.
Maybe when the CCP teem does some tweeking they will reinvent the wheel for stealth bombers somehow.
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File
Gallente eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.25 23:39:00 -
[22]
AF vs SB
I will do this just for the Caldari, I assure you the results are much the same for any other race.
Manticore VS Hawk VS Harpy
Structure: 300 vs 450 vs 475
Armor: 256 vs 344 vs 406 EM : 60 vs 60 vs 60 EX : 10 vs 10 vs 10 KN : 34 vs 63 vs 63 TM : 59 vs 86 vs 86
Shield: 281 vs 831 vs 781 EM : 0 vs 0 vs 0 EX : 60 vs 60 vs 60 KN : 48 vs 70 vs 70 TM : 40 vs 80 vs 80
Capacitor: 215 vs 250 vs 275 Recharge: 172 vs 150 vs 150 Scan Resolution: 375 vs 575 vs 500 Signature: 51 vs 39 vs 37 Velocity: 195 vs 235 vs 225
CPU: 245 vs 180 vs 175 PG: 30 vs 42 vs 50 Low: 2 vs 2 vs 2 Med: 4 vs 4 vs 4 High: 5 vs 5 vs 5 Launcher: 3 vs 4 vs 1 Turret: 1 vs 2 vs 4
Bonuses: Manticore: Frigate: 19.65% PG reduction for Cruise 5% Kinetic cruise damage. Cov Ops: 5% Reduction PG need for Cruise 25% cloaked velocity
Hawk: Frigate: 5% kinetic missile damage (others factored in already) Assault Ships: 10% missile velocity bonus 5% shield boost bonus
Harpy: Frigate: 10% Small Hybrid Optimal (others factored in already) Assault Ships: 10% Small Hybrid Tracking 5% Small Hybrid Damage
Now as far as tanking superiority - it's obvious. Same slot layout, better cap, better grid, huge resists oh and Hawk gets a bonus to boost.
I will not go in depth into the DPS because I just don't want to dedicate the time. But a Hawk will do about 500-600 damage every 5s with 2 BCU's fitted depending on skills.
I have no gunnery skills, so I cannot tell you exactly how much damage a harpy will do, but I know for a fact that one can blow up an SB in less than 5 seconds - so go from there.
Cost: 10/25/20
Except the manticore needs a cloak putting it up to 20m with a T1 and a whooping 60M with a T2. If you use T2 launchers or Arbs, thats 20-30m right there. So Arbs, T2 Cloak, BCU = 100M T2, T1 Cloak, BCU = 50M
In comparisson, the T2 launchers for a Hawk are just 1m each, in fact the most expensive fitting on a hawk are the two BCU's at 10m each. Total cost for a Hawk is 50M. You really can't spend more than that without getting faction boosters.
So tell me why you'd fly a Manticore over a Hawk?
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Rafaello Cruel
Gallente Rave Technologies Inc. Miners With Attitude
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Posted - 2006.10.25 23:43:00 -
[23]
sb just need 14-16% rof per skill bonus as aditional role bonus.. maybe some more grid and cpu like 10% more ? anyoying is fact that caldari can onlu use 3 launchers - rest is totally useless ------------------------------------- best regards Rafaello Cruel
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Quilan Ziller
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Posted - 2006.10.25 23:49:00 -
[24]
/signed
I don't see many of these ships in game. Most people I have talked to think they are not worth the trouble. The SBs are very expensive ships that have no tank. To balance this, they should have at least a fighting chance to take out T1 cruisers without being destroyed. After all, cheaper and less skill-intensive assault frigs and interceptors can and do win fights against T1 cruisers (sometimes). As of now, taking armor/shield resists into consideration, there is only a very small possibility of victory even for a gang of 2 SBs against a typical T1 cruiser. With Kali HP increase, there won't be any use for SBs at all, as has been illustrated earlier in this thread. Please fix Stealth Bombers! Either increase the damage they do, or allow the missiles to hit after the ship has re-cloaked. The SBs won't become an I-WIN button either way - they will still be very expensive, and the destruction of the enemy ship will not be certain. But right now, the SBs use is... very, very limited.
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Pottsey
Gallente Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.10.26 09:27:00 -
[25]
ôNow as far as tanking superiority - it's obvious. Same slot layout, better cap, better grid, huge resists oh and Hawk gets a bonus to boost.ö One big problem the AF CPU is a low enough that I cannot fit my tank but instead have to swap to weaker tank with less tanking modules. Also for the Gallente ships the slot lays outs different but not sure if thatÆs worse or better without running numbers. It might be better.
ôExcept the manticore needs a cloak putting it up to 20m with a T1 and a whooping 60M with a T2.ö When on earth did that happen! Last time I bought cloaks the price was well under 20mill, glad I havenÆt lost any recently. Sure it was only 20mill ish for a T2 a few months back when I built my new bomber.
öBut a Hawk will do about 500-600 damage every 5s with 2 BCU's fitted depending on skills.ö If I got my numbers right my bomber can tank that. Only just mind you.
ôSo tell me why you'd fly a Manticore over a Hawk?ö CPU, Stealth and surprise. Image the shock on a Hawk pilots face when he is flying in taking some good hits thinking its only a bomber its going pop in 5 seconds. 30 seconds later the bomber has done some serious damage to the Hawk and its still tanking ok.
Anyway going leave it at this. I donÆt want to argue if the bombers better then an AF not ran the numbers in detail to see which is truly better and it doesnt matter. Even if the AF is better you can still tank a SB.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.10.26 09:33:00 -
[26]
Wow thatÆs crazy just used Quick fit for a quick play with the Gallante AF. As a passive shield tank its got 3011 shield hitpoints. 34.29HP/s regen and 30 / 72 / 89.5 / 71 resistance. Then add in cheap implants and the gang skills and both the hitpoints and HP regen shoot up. I bet 40 HP/s is possible. Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Logan Xerxes
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.26 09:34:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia With the HP buff I think now is the perfect time and logical chance to make SBs use torps instead of cruise missiles.
What this guy said! (among other changes needed...)
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu |
Panta Rei
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:50:00 -
[28]
I really have nothing to add to this thread, except saying "Yes! Fix bombers."
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Rafaello Cruel
Gallente Rave Technologies Inc. Miners With Attitude
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:15:00 -
[29]
try to fit bomber as medium skiled person and not manticore - only manti have 3 launchers...
next what is problem... problem is long time between launch and efect maybe another role bonus is needed - like 20% to velocity per skill ? from another side at this point i see need to do stealth bombers skills just for specialisation - two skils - one basic x1 second advanced like x3(or4) boost in damage is needed for sure - equal to armor/shield boost to all ships in cali
bomber have chance to shot one salve - sometimes two - from long range if he is from short range - he is*****ed - in bombers we dont using reps... one way to defence (like from snipers) is sensor dumper - for fast lock you need one or two sensor boosters...
i do not agree with calculations for damage - more less its like 350 per launcher - meand max damage is 700 per salve for moderate player (like 1 year) even if player get specialisation for bombers he can accidentialy shoot something in small gang... but i tested that in a small gang efect was awfull :/ even from 30 km (extremly risy for bomber) when i uncloaked - and shoot one salve - target dies from single/duble ceptor/s befor my crusies hit target or target run away ... just becouse he was able to get away from interdictor sphere
my conclusion is : 1) if nothing will be done in cali with bombers... there wil be onlu museum ship with more tank on ships 2) bombers need faster crus misles 3) bombers need strong bonus to rof (staying to second salve is too risky - toy get lock - you cant hide) 4) bombers need special skills for class imho and from that skills strong bonuses to rof - ,for power grid and for cpu 5) bombers dont need more tank - its not a tank ship - you get lock - you 50%*****ed
on side... i hate fact that manticore have one more launcher - let all races to have 3 launchers - and for exchange give to manticore special caldari bonus to kinetic damage
giving covert cloak for bombers will be nice but imho isnt so much need from other hand - it will be not replacment for covert ops - covert ops have bonus to probes... so that will by anyway other ship class
so - i think its all from me
------------------------------------- best regards Rafaello Cruel
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Cordelia Simonova
Privateers
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:16:00 -
[30]
Originally by: File
I am deeply concerned about the state of the stealth bombers in Kali.
Agreed.
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File
Gallente eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:57:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Pottsey “Now as far as tanking superiority - it's obvious. Same slot layout, better cap, better grid, huge resists oh and Hawk gets a bonus to boost.” One big problem the AF CPU is a low enough that I cannot fit my tank but instead have to swap to weaker tank with less tanking modules. Also for the Gallente ships the slot lays outs different but not sure if that’s worse or better without running numbers. It might be better.
You are neglecting the fact that a cloak uses 30-60CPU making the difference in CPU far less of a factor.
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Nesa
Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:35:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia With the HP buff I think now is the perfect time and logical chance to make SBs use torps instead of cruise missiles.
Wouldn't that be more of a nerf? I mean, they have less range, take longer to hit, and will probably do less damage to any target that a SB has a hope in hell of killing.
The SB needs a strong alpha strike, if it is to suffer all these penalties making a second strike impossible. Might as well go increase ROF amazingly and do something weird like nerfing ammo capacity. Give it lots of power over the short term, then falling off to not so good DPS as to stop it being over powered.
Without them warping cloaked, they can't really sneak up on enemies. So you have to give them some chance of pulling off an ambush. I've yet to bother fitting a cloak to my 'stealth' bomber, and it hasn't seen much time out of the hangar either. It seems more effective warping in on targets than decloaking, and warping off is MORE effective than cloaking, as you can do that when locked at least.
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Scragg
Caldari Tyrell Corp Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:50:00 -
[33]
IMHO... I fly a Manticore frequently. It's not a solo hunter. It's best used in small groups or as support to a friendly cruiser/recon group.
The only thing I might change is making a stealth bombers missiles hit after it cloaks. But... I would not want to see it be able to uncloak, lock, fire, and recloak. There would be zero challenge in that scenario. Maybe uncloak, lock, fire, and as long as your missiles have been in flight for at least X number of seconds you can re-cloak and they will still hit.
Another possibility... decrease it's signature and increase it's damage a bit.
Possibly say it's cloak drastically decreases it's signature for x number of seconds after decloaking or something similar.
There are all kinds of possible ways to keep a stealth bomber stealthy and somewhat dangerious without giving it to much lovin and making it the ultimate killer.
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File
Gallente eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:12:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Scragg IMHO... I fly a Manticore frequently. It's not a solo hunter. It's best used in small groups or as support to a friendly cruiser/recon group.
I have shown time and time again that an interceptor or AF fills this role FAR better and for less ISK.
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:14:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Scragg There are all kinds of possible ways to keep a stealth bomber stealthy and somewhat dangerious without giving it to much lovin and making it the ultimate killer.
Why don't they change the stupid turret bonus to a explosion radius bonus. That would be a nice boost. I like the ROF bonus/Ammo Capacity nerf combination too.
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Rafaello Cruel
Gallente Rave Technologies Inc. Miners With Attitude
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:51:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Scragg IMHO... I fly a Manticore .....
yea.. its only manticore with 3 launchers... rest bombers suxx ------------------------------------- best regards Rafaello Cruel
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File
Gallente eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:52:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Slash Harnet
Why don't they change the stupid turret bonus to a explosion radius bonus. That would be a nice boost. I like the ROF bonus/Ammo Capacity nerf combination too.
Well because SBs already have an explosion radius bonus which is what lets them hit frigs in the first place.
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Kipkruide
Quantum Dynamics
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Posted - 2006.10.27 10:33:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Kipkruide on 27/10/2006 10:34:00 well i fly em now and again, but really just for fun, if you want to do anything serious they are well, obsolete. This ship needs a rework, all 4 of them to make them usefull in some role in kali. Atm they are expensive paperweights. :)
Go Go Tuxford
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Pilk
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.27 15:26:00 -
[39]
A Manticore is the single most player-skill-intensive ship in the game. The correct procedure for flying one requires ridiculous levels of perfect timing. It goes something like this:
- Deactivate cloak near the beginning of a cloak-cycle, as we'll need to reactivate quickly.
- Prime weapons and dampeners.
- When cloak deactivates, begin locking target.
- Activate sensor booster.
- Once weapons have fired, hit cloak again.
- Prime dampeners (and, optionally, weapons, if you think you'll need them again).
- Wait for missiles to near target, and computing an appropriate delta for the length of the cloak cycle, decloak just before missiles hit, begin targeting, and activate sensor booster.
This relies on three peculiarities about cloaks, sensor dampners and missile damage while cloaked:
- The cloak reactivation delay is based not on when the cloak shuts off, but when you press the button to shut the cloak off.
- Missiles don't do damage if, at the moment they hit, you're cloaked, but they don't mind if you've been cloaked while they were in flight.
- Sensor dampeners will function for their full cycle, even if you no longer have the target locked.
Now, this is horrifically complex and seems to rely on bizarre interactions between modules that, at first glance, seem pretty absurd. And after all of this, even with a half-dozen friends, you can only BARELY kill a well-tanked t1 cruiser. So, in other words, awesome player skills + 700 million isk = ganking a t1 cruiser, assuming he doesn't just warp off. Compare to an assault frigate, which can also tackle while dealing this kind of DPS, and it's very hard to justify deployment of Manticores in the field.
To top it all off, the warp problem is beyond the pale--a Manticore shouldn't need to fit a cap battery to warp more than 60-odd AU with WDO III and Energy Management IV.
Now, I don't mind going around with a couple friends with 700 million isk worth of ships that we're unlikely to lose if we play all of our cards right, in terms of activating everything at exactly the right time, and bringing an Arazu to tackle, and so on. But given a 25-50% HP boost? Now we're rolling out with a billion isk (remember the Arazu and his covops cloak), and even if we do everything right, we're either not going to kill the enemy's t1 cruiser, or we'll be losing an Arazu in the process.
Summary:
- Stealth bombers are usable, though difficult to use, a pain in the butt to fit, hideously expensive, and unusable in anything but a gang designed for them and against one or two targets.
- Stealth bombers soon WON'T be usable due to HP increase.
- The Manticore (and possibly others; I haven't flown any others) needs a serious kick in the pants regarding warp capabilities.
- The only decent use I've found for a stealth bomber so far (which, sorry, I'm not going to share on the forums, though any dev who's curious is welcome to contact me) doesn't even fit a cloak.
There's my essay for the day; let me know what you think.
--P
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Dark Plant
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Posted - 2006.10.27 16:52:00 -
[40]
Sounds to me like the Developers are purposly nerf'ing stealth bombers into the ground.
Unless they can explain otherwise.
Developers don't like stealth bombers?
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2006.10.27 17:17:00 -
[41]
Originally by: File
Originally by: Slash Harnet
Why don't they change the stupid turret bonus to a explosion radius bonus. That would be a nice boost. I like the ROF bonus/Ammo Capacity nerf combination too.
Well because SBs already have an explosion radius bonus which is what lets them hit frigs in the first place.
Can someone confirm they get an explosion radius bonus?
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voidvim
Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.27 17:23:00 -
[42]
The main aim of the dev's changes to the combat paradigm in Kali is to change the combat length giving pilots more time to react during combat. Also this allows them to add stuff like sub-system targeting and laser overloading. Thus the possibility for more tactics in battle.
So they have increase ship durability across the board by 50%, also ship rigging favours tanking as well. As a result ships that rely on a high alpha strike like the tempest or whole ship classes like stealth bombers will suffer.
If ccp were to buff the alpha strike back up, it would be counter productive to their new paradigm.
I personal don't see how stealth bombers in their current incarnation have any place in kali. Thus stealth bomber need to be redesigned.
How I don't know - but a dive bomber anti battle ship role would be cool.
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RoDs84
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Posted - 2006.10.27 23:19:00 -
[43]
I imagine that all stealth bombers can have 4 launcher hardpoints instead of useless turret hardpoints, so all of them can fill their high slots with 4 cruise launchers and 1 cloaking device. Meds and lows can be the same.
So you can say, whats the difference of SB of different factions, the answer is the damage type of the cruise missile that the faction-frigate skill level gives bonus, Amarr - EM, Gallente Thermal, Minmatar Explosive, Caldari Kinetic.
"Faction Frigate Skill Bonus: 19.65% reduction in Cruise Launcher powergrid needs and 5% bonus to Cruise Missile X damage per level
Covert Ops Skill Bonus: 5% reduction in Cruise Launcher powergrid needs and 25% bonus to cloaked velocity per level"
The boni above can be an option for all SBs, where X is the faction spec dmg type.
With this, and Advanced Weapon Upgrades and Covert Ops @ lvl4 a cruise launcher needs:
1250 x 0.92(Advanced Weapon Upgrades @ lvl4) x 0.0175(Faction Frigate Skill Bonus) x 0.8(Covert Ops Skill Bonus @ lvl4) = 16.1 MW on a SB. 4 of them needs 64.4 MW.
So its possible to let them have enough grid to be able to mount all 4 cruise launchers plus 5 for the other modules ( 1 grid demand for each ) when Advanced Weapon Upgrades and Covert Ops skills are @ lvl 4 and at least 2 +10 grid MAPC is needed to be mounted in the lows.
That way Stealth Bombers will still be frigile while they can kill small targets very quickly as they meant to be. They will be much more entertaining and feared toys but still can be popped in a single mistake. Also the meaningless difference between the Manticore and the others will be removed by the way.
Any further thoughts?
RoD
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Anngellica
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Posted - 2006.10.27 23:46:00 -
[44]
Wont giving the stealth bomber the abilty to use the cov ops cloak II make the cov ops ship useless?
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voidvim
Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.28 01:15:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Anngellica Wont giving the stealth bomber the abilty to use the cov ops cloak II make the cov ops ship useless?
they would still warp faster and have the scan launcher bonus
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Jacob Holland
Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.29 12:04:00 -
[46]
I've only ever been on the recieving end of Stealth Bombers, but the idea that they can't kill a T1 frig before being locked is just wrong. One salvo from a Manticore will take an Incursus into structure without much trouble and can do so long before the Incursus gets close to lock range (although I'm not sure whether I'd have suffered more or less damage if I'd left my MWD on). The Incursus can warp out if it survives, or warp out while the missles are in flight but that means you've won. Stealth bombers are designed for guerilla activities rather than outright war surely, their job is to sit with friends near a belt in a hostile's known mining system, wait for the barges to show up, wait for the ore supplies to start flowing and start popping barges and haulers. This is a job they were well suited for, the fact that the price of cloaks has soared is an unrelated (though significant) problem. With old cloak prices a gang of three Manticore pilots was a much more cost effective way of harrassing enemy logistics than a cloaked battleship.
Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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Zoxia
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.10.29 12:35:00 -
[47]
I think there are more patches on the way?? isnt this a two part patch?? kali 1 and kali 2?? until all are implemtented and in place kinda hard to make absolutely judgements.
Alot of these complaints look more like agenda.
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YuckFou
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Posted - 2006.10.29 23:31:00 -
[48]
a dev reply would be good 8( I would also say give them a 25-50% damage increase.
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Chronojam
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Posted - 2006.10.30 07:41:00 -
[49]
Hell, I'm concerned about the state of stealth bombers NOW.
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Mallakk
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Posted - 2006.10.30 08:24:00 -
[50]
No devs ever answered a single thread about the bomber issue.
They simply dont care about them, have better things to do (like adding new bu. err stuff in game) and probably waits for this ship class to vanish by itself.
The cyno/cloak bug is present for months, completely breaking a ship line role, why should they care about our bombers ?
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Ficti0n
FireTech Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.30 17:28:00 -
[51]
Originally by: File
I am deeply concerned about the state of the stealth bombers in Kali.
Agreed
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Sean Dillon
Caldari Privateers
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Posted - 2006.10.30 17:38:00 -
[52]
I agree the only thing usefull about a sb now is that it can cloak. It lacks firepower, toughness and is weak.
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Thecle Vifargent
GandY Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.30 20:27:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Sean Dillon I agree the only thing usefull about a sb now is that it can cloak. It lacks firepower, toughness and is weak.
Actually, any ship can cloak...
But well, bomber have some *few* bonus who make a non covert ops cloak usable...
It only lack everything else...
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FactorzGT
Quantum Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.31 01:43:00 -
[54]
Originally by: File Edited by: File on 25/10/2006 16:43:08 I am deeply concerned about the state of the stealth bombers in Kali.
They are suffering from two major issues due to the changes in Kali:
1. The damage required to kill a target has been increased by 25-50% and thus so has the number of salvoes. With that the chance of detection and the chance of the target escaping have also been increased.
2. As a T2 ship the SB's get the 25% HP bonus, but since they get very limited resists bonuses, this puts them at LESS HP than the T1 frigs making them extremely fragile.
To put it simply, the SB does NOT benefit from the HP boost since it is not capable of taking fire or fitting a tank but suffers very heavily from the relative loss of firepower.
As is, the SB has little chance of taking down anything solo and is too fragile for roaming ops due to the high possibility of being decloaked by friendlies.
I think the easiest fix is to increase the damage bonuses on the SBs by 100%, meaning taking the cruise missile damage bonus from 5% to 10%. This is needed to keep the relative firepower of the SB intact and give it a chance against the HP boosted targets. (Note: The increase of 100% to the BONUS is needed to bring the TOTAL damage up by 50%)
Yes, this will negate the HP bonus - but it'll give the SB its role back. A SB is supposed to be able to kill its target quickly before it itself is locked, otherwise it is useless.
The reason other T2 ships do not need any such boost is that they are capable of taking damage and benefit from the HP boost, the SBs on the other hand do not. They are not ships that are designed to take any amount of damage, and you will not find anyone flying a SB with a viable tank setup.
edit - fixed bonus %
STAMPED
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Rafaello Cruel
Gallente Rave Technologies Inc. Miners With Attitude
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Posted - 2006.10.31 15:11:00 -
[55]
no dev answered :/ please... repair bombers in cali 1 ------------------------------------- best regards Rafaello Cruel
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Mallakk
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Posted - 2006.11.03 08:11:00 -
[56]
Its Kali :) but fix bomber is still a good idea...
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