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So much for the ECM nerf...

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White Ronin	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:54:00 - [31] I know I am a noob to most who have been here for years but I had a small idea. THere is a thread about changing the Min Ewar that is actually really good. And seeing as how the 'ecm' effect is kinda imbalanced to begin with.... How about designing a new ewar for the cal. I mean really. The gal have sensor damps that can be made useless with a fitting or two. The amarr have t-disrupters that dont effect missiles but are pretty powerful against all turrets. The min have the painter which really needs changed to be on par with the rest (see thread in this forum for a great idea). And the cal have a system that, if it works at all, will disable most, if not all of your combat abilities.... for 20 seconds for one cycle and more for beyond. Maybe the problem is not the 'randomness' but the end result. Maybe it should work like sensor damps or turret disrupters, where there is a way out of it. Cause right now when it is on, you are done. Not just "fit eccm" cause once it does activate, you are done PERIOD. Maybe reducing or changing the effect would work better. Just a stupid idea say that your ecm does work, then the target's sensors read the sig radius as much smaller then it really is. Kinda the reverse of target painters. That way the effect is more a bigger chance to miss or reduced damage, not total lockdown. Anyway, just a thought.
starship enginer	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:00:00 - [32] it has gone from a extreamly overpowered system to a overpowered system On any random non ecm ship [ie a rifter or a tempest or a caracal ect] 2.4[base] * 1.25 [skill] = 3pts average ship in pvp has about 15 strength, BS more, cepters less but average is about 15 3/15 = 20% chance. 3 ecm mods = 48.8 % chance!!!!! and just fyi a domi with 3 multispecs has a 38.6% chance of jamming a BS with 20strength, and it does that every cycle. so if a fight lasts 21seconds, a domi with 3 ecm multis has 62.3% chance to jam you. if a fight lasts 41seconds, a domi has 76.8% chance to jam your average BS with 3x multispec and with hp buff and plates, fights are definitly going to last longer [a buff to ecm :/]
Riddick06	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:08:00 - [33] Reduce the jamming cycles to 10 seconds and 30 seconds to re-jam. Even if the jam cycle stops u still have to compete with dampeners which work so well it gives the jammer enough time for him to jam you again. Jammers are borked the only reason why the devs think jammers on the right ships are ok is because not enough people are complaining about this frickin issue. So you lower the strength of jammers, still anything with enough midslots will still improve chances of jamming the target. And jammers should definitly get a stackin nerf. And there should be more threads sayin nerf the jammers!!
Vladimir Norkoff Crimson Knights Trade Federation Thundering Mantis	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:11:00 - [34] Originally by: Scordite Because I have 3 midslots, with ECCM I have to drop injector, which is bad since I have very high cap consumption on my guns despite maxed skills, or web, which is bad because you're likely to be faster than me and thus able to dictate range, or scram which makes me only able to fight defensively.. Yup.. Fitting is all about making choices - I'm sure you already know that.. Thing is, most people don't want to HAVE to make that choice in regards to ECM.. Unfortunately, they don't have that choice.. If you choose not to fit ECCM, you're going to be more susceptible to jammers.. If you do fit it, then you end up giving up something else.. That's the choice.. Originally by: Scordite And my ship has the lowest sensor strenght of any of it's size in the game... Yes, and other ships have the lowest speed, or the lowest cap, or the lowest shield hp, or lowest whatever.. Mintar ships are victims for EWar in general, that's one of their (many) short-comings.. Strangely though, people still seem to love them for PvP.. Might have something to do with that whole "dictate the range" thing you were talking about.. Originally by: Scordite Now compare the effect of tracking disruptor and sensor dampener on ships that have no room to fit counter-mods. Dampened? Fly closer. Tracking disrupted? Web him and stop your own ship, make sure you're a bit above optimal, whatever else you can think of to maximise tracking. Fight will be harder for you, but at least you still have options. Yep.. Or fit sensor boosters or tracking computers or whatever (every ship has at least one mid-slot, you just have to choose what to put there).. Personally, I prefer damps over jammers.. Damps are 100% effective, there is no "chance" of failure.. Downside as you stated is that people can close range on the damping ship.. The downside of jamming is that it doesn't always work.. There's always a chance it could fail, even with 5 racials against a cruiser (with no-ECCM).. In which case you've wasted about 300 cap, have no tank, and have absolutely nothing to show for it except a killmail from Concord informing you what you've been killed by..
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:20:00 - [35] @ Butter Dog. Bad luck? It is hard to cry foul when you have a stroke of bad luck. If the jammer did not work, you would have killed him in seconds and not posted about it. ECM abuse will be over and the next flavour will be dampeners. --------- It's great being a Caldari, ain't it? Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Scordite	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:30:00 - [36] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Fitting is all about making choices - I'm sure you already know that.. Thing is, most people don't want to HAVE to make that choice in regards to ECM.. Unfortunately, they don't have that choice.. Bingo. Not fitting a sensor booster when the opponent has a dampener makes the fight harder for you, but there are tactical ways to partially overcome the problem. Not fitting a tracking computer when the enemy has a disruptor makes your turrets have trouble tracking, which is a non-issue if you're a missile boat, and even if you're not, there are tactical ways to partially overcome the problem. Not fitting ECCM when the opponent has a jammer makes you loose the fight automatically with no way to prevent it no matter what you do, or makes absolutely no difference.. All decided by a dice roll. You think this is balanced because the diceroll will sometimes cause the one with the jammer to not auto-win, but instead have a totally even fight besides him being down 1 midslot? I'm not talking about dedicated ECM boats. A scorp, a BB, a rook and a falcon SHOULD jam stuff. They sacrifice nearly everything else to do so, especially post-kali. If any other ship fits a full rack of jammers instead of a shield tank, they deserve to blow up. Personally, I think that if they want to keep the current system, they should make racial ECM as powerful on non-ECM boats as multispec is now on test and then make non-ECM boats completely unable to fit multispecs. Then find bonus values that make racials powerful on ECM boats, and multispecs less so, but able to jam all ships. It's still a bad system, but at least it takes the step CCP have started with the kali nerf all the way. ECM will still be a wildcard on non-ECM boats, but only if you know what you're going up against. Not possible to use in all-round/standard/cookie cutter setups, but for situational use only. ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Larkonis Trassler g guild	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:43:00 - [37] I'd personally like to see multispecs taken away from non ECM boats (massive CPU penalty with BB/Rook/Falcon/Scorp getting a bonus) and force people to fit racials instead... With regards to the OP... Bad luck? Really, you can't base an argument on one unlucky fight and be like 'ZOMG ECM NEEDS TEH NERF STILL!!!' A return to the old system means what? Small gank squads all sacrificing one mid slot a piece and permajamming their primary? Please, at least with this system there's a chance you won't spend a whole battle jammed. Just wait until the hullabalu has died down and everyone starts fitting damps. ------------ Crow Squad... An Audio and Visual Joygasm by Larkonis Trassler
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:50:00 - [38] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Butter Dog this was actually a really good system... it mean no ridiculous 'multispecs of doom', and winning fights by nothing more than the role of a dice No, it wasn't a good system. One backup array meant you were 100% immune to ECM. good. Because I said so...
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:58:00 - [39] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Risien Drogonne No, it wasn't a good system. One backup array meant you were 100% immune to ECM. good. yeah, whats the prob w/ that?? your sacrificing a slot entirely on the chance you may run into ecm. If you waste a slot on a counter, it damn well better be able to counter!
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:10:00 - [40] Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: murder one Originally by: Risien Drogonne No, it wasn't a good system. One backup array meant you were 100% immune to ECM. good. yeah, whats the prob w/ that?? your sacrificing a slot entirely on the chance you may run into ecm. If you waste a slot on a counter, it damn well better be able to counter! If I waste a slot on a hardender, it damn well better make me immune to that damage type.

Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:11:00 - [41] As I have said many times before adjusting the strengths will change absolutely nothing. Adjusting the strengths can mean 2 things: 1) nothing changes and everyone and their mother will still fit ECM and fit the lowslot improvement mod to somewhat compensate for the loss of strength. Kinda like the non-nerf on stabs. So I lock slower.. ooooh now that's such a great nerf now it takes 4 seconds instead of 2 woopdief-ckingdoo.. 2) ECM becomes completely pointless on non-dedicated ships and remains uber on dedicated ships. While this removes the Dominix/Raven ECM setups somewhat I don't really think it's a desirable sitation especially considering where the rest of the EW is on the powerscale. Then we're back in 2004 where tracking disruptors might as well not have existed. IMO we need a system where it's a viable choice on non-EW ships and a good choice on EW ships. I personally think they were on the right direction with the re-actvation delay (which then got reduced on EW dedicated ships). It can never be hard to code as cloaks already have it as well. Unfortunately that never got proper testing and we're stuck with this crap change along with all the other crap Tuxford keeps throwing at us. Another solution may be partial jamming but as discussed before at great length that would get a total mess on how that's supposed to work. Alternatively we could just make backup arrays an activated module that would ignore the first succesfull jamming attempt and then not work for a set period of time (say, 20 seconds).
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:17:00 - [42] Hmm, I like a couple of the ideas here. 1) Make ECM jam for 10 secs but take 30 secs before it can be used again, and keep things otherwise the same. 2) Make ECM just break locks like burst does, and not prevent relocking. (Might have to reduce cycle time on ECM if you do this as they'd be underpowered then) Both very good ideas IMO.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:22:00 - [43] Edited by: HankMurphy on 27/10/2006 01:22:14 Originally by: Risien Drogonne If I waste a slot on a hardender, it damn well better make me immune to that damage type. rofl, nice try. Thats not even comparing apples and oranges. Thats comparing apples and basketballs. edit to add:I can agree w/ a racial jammer getting a role in on a racial backup, but a multispec should never be able to.
Kye Kenshin Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:26:00 - [44] Old system was lame. I'm not the first to suggest this but the most simple way to fix it is to introduce a cool down period after each succesful jam of about 30 secs or more. That means its very unlikely you'll get permajammed for a whole fight. ----------------------------------------------- Beagle In Hibernation, Beagles Forever!!
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:28:00 - [45] Originally by: HankMurphy Edited by: HankMurphy on 27/10/2006 01:22:14 Originally by: Risien Drogonne If I waste a slot on a hardender, it damn well better make me immune to that damage type. rofl, nice try. Thats not even comparing apples and oranges. Thats comparing apples and basketballs. edit to add:I can agree w/ a racial jammer getting a role in on a racial backup, but a multispec should never be able to. I suppose it's not comparable... simply because you say so? Nice try. I can't get immunity with hardeners and you can't get immunity with eccm or backup arrays. Seems pretty similar to me.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:34:00 - [46] Originally by: Risien Drogonne I suppose it's not comparable... simply because you say so? ecm isn't damage. thats why its not comparable. lets use a little common sense here (thats not against the forum rules is it? ) if i shoot you for 120 thermal damage you dont loose your lock, have to wait for my gun to get a bad roll, then relock my ship, hardener or not. ECM is not equal to damage. Has nothingn to do w/ my 'say so'
Ruze No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:37:00 - [47] Adding a longer cooldown period is viable. However, the old system was too 'cut and dry.' I'm not a huge fan of being locked down either, but I've got enough common sense to know that if I don't have any ECCM equiped, I'm basically leaving the door open. Currently, ECM seems overpowered, both by my personal experiences and from the forum cry-babies. Looking at it from a victims perspective, I feel that NO player should be unable to be warp scrambled, unable to be jammed, unable to be nos'd, or unable to be dampened. From the other end, no player should have an automatic, immediate victory. Everything should have some level of luck involved. In a freak incident, that ship with the full rack of high-slot ECM might NOT get the lock, for no other reason that dumb luck. ECM, however, should be given a hard once-over by the developers. Random thought/suggestion? Only allow a ship to project ECM at a single target, instead of multiple targets at once. Including Nos, Dampners and the like. Just 2 cents from someone who you obviously know more than ... Genesis Project
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:37:00 - [48] Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: Risien Drogonne I suppose it's not comparable... simply because you say so? ecm isn't damage. thats why its not comparable. lets use a little common sense here (thats not against the forum rules is it? ) if i shoot you for 120 thermal damage you dont loose your lock, have to wait for my gun to get a bad roll, then relock my ship, hardener or not. ECM is not equal to damage. Has nothingn to do w/ my 'say so' ECM is tank. That makes it applicable.
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:58:00 - [49] Edited by: Tasty Burger on 27/10/2006 01:58:14 The ECM nerf is RIDICULOUS. It pidgeon holes ships and restricts options. That is not good. All ships should be able to fit effective ECM, caldari shouldnt be the only ones. THAT SAID: - ECM is OVERPOWERED NO MATTER WHAT. The entire system needs to be changed. ECM should only break locks, since relocking times mean even if jammed once you are *****. ECM would break a lock and be used in tandem with sensor dampeners, promoting TEAMWORK. This would also allow ECM to still be effectively used on non-caldari ships as it should be. - If for some reason the above is not done, ECCM should instantly break any jams and let you relock. Jamming at the moment is completely unfair since it prevents the victim from doing ANYTHING to defend himself. You can do stuff when TD'd, sensor damped, nossed, and lol target painted... not jammed. Also multispecs need to be removed. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?*
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.27 02:01:00 - [50] Originally by: Tasty Burger - If for some reason the above is not done, ECCM should instantly break any jams and let you relock. One warp core stab should nullify all warp scramblers on you. Still sound reasonable when applied to other forms of EW?

Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.27 02:02:00 - [51] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Tasty Burger - If for some reason the above is not done, ECCM should instantly break any jams and let you relock. One warp core stab should nullify all warp scramblers on you. Still sound reasonable when applied to other forms of EW? You can fight back when warp scrambled. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Radcjk	Posted - 2006.10.27 02:17:00 - [52] Edited by: Radcjk on 27/10/2006 02:20:26 Agreed with Larkonis. Reread the posts and saw he had the same idea. ecm on ewar specific ships only. ECM does need fixed but not to the point its worthless at the same time.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.27 02:34:00 - [53] Originally by: Tasty Burger Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Tasty Burger - If for some reason the above is not done, ECCM should instantly break any jams and let you relock. One warp core stab should nullify all warp scramblers on you. Still sound reasonable when applied to other forms of EW? You can fight back when warp scrambled. You can fight back when jammed. Use drones or FoF missiles. Next point?
Sinnbad Mayhem	Posted - 2006.10.27 02:50:00 - [54] The new system is better but still not perfect. The low slot ECM booster (forget the name) is excellent trade/off. Wondering if anyone tested the Scorpion/Falcon/Rook on Test yet? Are the bonuses + mods crazy?
Siakel	Posted - 2006.10.27 03:00:00 - [55] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Tasty Burger Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Tasty Burger - If for some reason the above is not done, ECCM should instantly break any jams and let you relock. One warp core stab should nullify all warp scramblers on you. Still sound reasonable when applied to other forms of EW? You can fight back when warp scrambled. You can fight back when jammed. Use drones or FoF missiles. Next point? Yeah. Tell that to my Zealot, or Maller, or Punisher, or Retribution, Crusader, etc.
Sinnbad Mayhem	Posted - 2006.10.27 03:06:00 - [56] Originally by: Siakel Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Tasty Burger Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Tasty Burger - If for some reason the above is not done, ECCM should instantly break any jams and let you relock. One warp core stab should nullify all warp scramblers on you. Still sound reasonable when applied to other forms of EW? You can fight back when warp scrambled. You can fight back when jammed. Use drones or FoF missiles. Next point? Yeah. Tell that to my Zealot, or Maller, or Punisher, or Retribution, Crusader, etc. Amarr has the best Anti ECM platform: 7 Smart bomb Apoc / Geddon setup.
Sonorra Baki	Posted - 2006.10.27 03:08:00 - [57] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Tasty Burger Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Tasty Burger - If for some reason the above is not done, ECCM should instantly break any jams and let you relock. One warp core stab should nullify all warp scramblers on you. Still sound reasonable when applied to other forms of EW? You can fight back when warp scrambled. You can fight back when jammed. Use drones or FoF missiles. Next point? That might be true if your a mission nub in a nub corp, and never leaves Jita
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.27 03:24:00 - [58] Originally by: Sonorra Baki That might be true if your a mission nub in a nub corp, and never leaves Jita What, you're complaining that a module whose job is to hamper your ability to fight back hampers your ability to fight back? The guy said it was impossible to fight back. I proved him wrong.
Enigmier	Posted - 2006.10.27 03:39:00 - [59] give eccm a bit more of a buff maybe? but make the high slot `auto targeter` an anti ecm `get your lock back` module, sure it takes a high slot and means you have to do without a weapon, but i think its a fair trade-off to stop yourself from being jammed. so med and low slot eccm give you a higher chance of not being jammed high slot auto targeter gives you a 100% chance of not being jammed and lets keep the chance based system as the old system sucked ballz
Siakel	Posted - 2006.10.27 03:52:00 - [60] Edited by: Siakel on 27/10/2006 03:53:48 The problem with ECCM isn't really its strength, it's more that the module is absolutely useless if nobody is attempting to jam you. Every other counter-module adds a bonus to your ship or weapons even if you aren't being hit by the EW it counters. TDs vs Tracking Comps, Damps vs Sensor Boosters, etc. Edit: Oh, and thanks for ignoring the ships that ECM completely shuts down, and instead pointing out only the ships that might be able to possibly do something while jammed, if the situation is right.



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